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Queensland and Kingsland - Can you split a State in two? 

Constitutional Clarion
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A motion was recently moved in the Queensland Parliament to support the taking of steps to form a separate Australian State of North Queensland. While it failed, it raised the interesting question of whether, and how, a new State can be formed from territory of an 'original State' of the Commonwealth of Australia. This video considers the history of attempts to create new States, the constitutional procedure for doing so, the representation of the new State in the federal Parliament and the practical problems that might be encountered.
It concludes with a discussion of whether part of a State could secede from the State but be admitted as a new State to the Commonwealth of Australia. It draws on an attempt to do this during the Lang era in New South Wales in 1931-32, which was only averted by Lang's dismissal.

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22 май 2024

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Комментарии : 96   
@backyardprojects9945
@backyardprojects9945 Месяц назад
Katter might have more luck in moving the Qld Parliament to Mt Isa. I'm sure the Brizzy based polies would have fainting spells at the thought.
@the.parks.of.no.return
@the.parks.of.no.return Месяц назад
The whole of QLD is used to quench the thirst of money by brisbane
@roygfs
@roygfs Месяц назад
Great video, thank you. To those interested in the case of New England there's a great museum at the Saumarez Homestead in Armidale. The White family who owned the station were ardent supporters of statehood, and there remain in the homestead several artefacts related to their endeavours in promoting such notion.
@constitutionalclarion1901
@constitutionalclarion1901 Месяц назад
Thanks, that's useful to know.
@afropenguin
@afropenguin Месяц назад
A thing that needs to be noted for the New england state referdum was that the "borders" of the state where extended past trraditional New englsnd including Newcastle. From what im aware its pretty much been confirmed that this was done to gerrymander the borders, the feredum was popular and passed in traditional New England but was very unpopular in Newcastle.
@patrickobrian9669
@patrickobrian9669 Месяц назад
Speaking of Newcastle, I can imagine the Hunter (Newcastle to Murrurundi, Lake Mac to Port Stephens) achieving statehood one day.
@constitutionalclarion1901
@constitutionalclarion1901 Месяц назад
Yes, I've also been told that Newcastle was deliberately included in the referendum area to affect the outcome - although I have no primary or reliable sources for that.
@davidbrown4849
@davidbrown4849 Месяц назад
@@constitutionalclarion1901 They needed Newcastle as a strategic port for their agricultural / mining produce.
@anthonywalsh2164
@anthonywalsh2164 20 дней назад
Was the stopping of the Dorrigo rail line short of the New England tablelands part of the plan?
@willbaren
@willbaren Месяц назад
Thank you so much for this. Fascinating.
@constitutionalclarion1901
@constitutionalclarion1901 Месяц назад
You're welcome.
@shaz5711
@shaz5711 Месяц назад
It seems to me like an issue in which the idea actually DOES have a (big asterisk) relatively clear provision in the constitution, but in just about every case in real life would lead to political, social, and economic headaches all around. I wonder if the framers of the constitution predicted that Australia would have its own "manifest destiny" period of growth some time in the 20th century in the same way the US did in the 19th, which would require the creation of more states.
@braytongoodall2169
@braytongoodall2169 Месяц назад
It's an interesting if it makes sense to have a shining metropole and the far west ~empty grazier areas For instance if Northern NSW were to split, whether it would look like the 13 colonies without the creation of new states: each of the 13 colonies charters had their borders continue indefinitely westward (or until the missisippi)
@jimgraham6722
@jimgraham6722 8 дней назад
Bob Menzies once dallied with the idea of re-dividing Australia into seventeen states. However, wiser counsel prevailed.
@wollondillyargyle281
@wollondillyargyle281 Месяц назад
Of course North Queensland and New England should be new states, but the politicians and businessmen of the big cities will make sure that it doesn't happen.
@dfor50
@dfor50 3 дня назад
There's a lot of support for it in North Queensland.
@the.parks.of.no.return
@the.parks.of.no.return Месяц назад
Just make North QLD its own country
@joshuataylor6087
@joshuataylor6087 Месяц назад
Very interesting, thank you.
@jolonf
@jolonf Месяц назад
Driving through Australia, it does seem like the borders aren’t in logical locations. North Qld is very different to SEQ and also a long distance away. Additionally why is there a border through Coolangatta and Tweed Heads? Also locations like Kingscliffe, Byron Bay, and even as far south as Lismore seem more culturally connected with SEQ than Sydney. Furthermore, drawing a border right down the Murray River is a ridiculous idea as there will always be settlements on both sides of the river, why should they be in different states? Surely towns along a river have more in common with each other rather than Sydney or Melbourne. At least the following states make a lot of sense: - Victoria - Riverina - NSW - South Qld (from Lismore to ~Bundaberg) - North Qld
@jolonf
@jolonf Месяц назад
Probably a bad idea, but the ACT could be expanded to include the Riverina.
@davidunwin7868
@davidunwin7868 Месяц назад
Brisbane is closer to Melbourne than to Cairns...
@oasis042
@oasis042 Месяц назад
That actually was really interesting.
@constitutionalclarion1901
@constitutionalclarion1901 Месяц назад
Glad you enjoyed it.
@petergale9200
@petergale9200 7 дней назад
But how would it impact State or Origin ?
@constitutionalclarion1901
@constitutionalclarion1901 7 дней назад
@@petergale9200 I think that one of the arguments given in favour of it was that North Queensland was capable of supporting its own football team, and therefore should become its own State! There was something in the Hansard about it.
@neilgarrad4931
@neilgarrad4931 4 дня назад
Thanks
@anthonywatts2033
@anthonywatts2033 Месяц назад
If we can cope with the NT (yes not a state) and Tas and perhaps in a bad year SA, economics have nothing to do with "statehood"! A greater reason for NOT splitting is that we have enough "characters" (ie idiot politicians) from that part of the world.
@Dave_Sisson
@Dave_Sisson Месяц назад
I totally agree, but from memory the erratic nature of Western Australian mining royalties means that they have demanded more assistance from the Commonwealth than South Australia ever has.
@constitutionalclarion1901
@constitutionalclarion1901 Месяц назад
Economics have a lot to do with statehood, because establishing the infrastructure for a separate State is very expensive and potentially wasteful duplication, making us all poorer.
@davidunwin7868
@davidunwin7868 Месяц назад
​@Dave_Sisson there was a National Press Club debate over GST about a week or two ago, and this came up.
@KarlSmith1
@KarlSmith1 Месяц назад
@@constitutionalclarion1901 If your goal is to reduce "wasteful duplication" the obvious place to start would be abolishing self-government in Victoria and merging that state back into NSW. The Victorians have time and again proven themselves too immature to govern their own affairs.
@IkeOkerekeNews
@IkeOkerekeNews 13 дней назад
The existence of of states is more depended on geograhical and cultural distinctions than economics.
@billmago7991
@billmago7991 Месяц назад
thank you Professor,i always enjoy your contributions......Nth Qld has a climate that tends to wreck havoc on its infastructure. Any new state would be bankrupted by climate change
@anthonywalsh2164
@anthonywalsh2164 20 дней назад
Queensland does need constitutional reform due to a unicameral parliament in a vast state with a strong regional population. If they don’t look at the electoral system (NZ style?) or restarting the Legislative Council, then splitting the state into two is the next path.
@constitutionalclarion1901
@constitutionalclarion1901 20 дней назад
It is certainly one approach, but they have been arguing about it since the 1890s at least, with no real action, so I won't be holding my breath.
@aPeaceOfAdam
@aPeaceOfAdam Месяц назад
Hi, I love your video. I'd really appreciate hearing your thoughts on national bodies created by state legislation - such as the Australian Health Practitioner Regulation Agency (AHPRA). There seems to be lots of confusion around what kind of entity AHPRA is and what jurisdiction it falls under - it's created by state legislation, replicated (with amendments) in each state but it refers to itself as a national body. The confusion recently caused a state government body to state: "While I accept that AHPRA has participating jurisdiction (state) offices with State Managers in each jurisdiction, the agency is not a State entity or department.The current arrangement [the Health Practitioner Regulation National Law Act (Qld)] maintains the powers of the State without conferring power to the Commonwealth per se". The former health minister Hon MP Greg Hunt's office has stated categorically that AHPRA is not under federal jurisdiction and Qld state government bodies have stated it's not under state jurisdiction (and obviously it's not a local government body)...what class of entity is AHPRA and what jurisdiction does it fall under and is it constitutionally valid to create a body that "reprsents the state" and "binds the state", that represents itself as a state public administration in state Supreme Court judicial review, but does not accept oversight of either the federal or state anti-corruption bodies because it defines itself as a "national entity" and not a state body.
@constitutionalclarion1901
@constitutionalclarion1901 29 дней назад
Really interesting issue - and a very hard question. I'll have a think about it.
@cesargodoy2920
@cesargodoy2920 Месяц назад
So theoretically does a new state HAVE to be created from an old state/territory ?I know it would never happen but could legally Australia have a non contiguous state ?or even accept an former country as a state? on that note its a common myth here that Texas can Unilaterally spilt into five and/or secede due to there agreement when they joined the union . This is a myth however .the treaty does state that Texas has that power to spilt up..but with congressional approval.(so basically Texas just gets to ask quicker) and secession is impossible. great video as always thank you!
@constitutionalclarion1901
@constitutionalclarion1901 Месяц назад
Yes, the Commonwealth could accept new States under s 121 of the Constitution from outside its existing territory - such as the islands of New Zealand or even Fiji. New Zealand is mentioned in the definition of "States", in covering clause 6 of the Constitution, but only to the extent that it becomes part of the Commonwealth.
@cesargodoy2920
@cesargodoy2920 Месяц назад
@constitutionalclarion1901 thank you
@petergale9200
@petergale9200 7 дней назад
Conversely could a federal referendum remove the status of an “original state”. It would require only a majority in 4 of the 5 remaining states, and the votes against in the state in question need not have much impact on the national vote.
@constitutionalclarion1901
@constitutionalclarion1901 7 дней назад
I think this might trigger the penultimate paragraph of s 128, as removal from 'Original State' status would affect guaranteed representation in the Senate. So the people of the affected State would also have to pass the referendum by a majority, for it to succeed.
@petergale9200
@petergale9200 7 дней назад
@@constitutionalclarion1901 Even though everyone in the state might vote against the downgrading, I thought that the vote in other states would override.
@petergale9200
@petergale9200 7 дней назад
@@constitutionalclarion1901 Actually reduction in ( over ) representation would be the aim
@constitutionalclarion1901
@constitutionalclarion1901 6 дней назад
@@petergale9200 But that's precisely what the penultimate paragraph in s 128 is there to protect against. It is to protect the States with small populations from being overridden by the the ones with bigger populations.
@thebeautifulones5436
@thebeautifulones5436 Месяц назад
North Queensland has more than coal. It has bauxite, copper, tin and gold. Also sugar, cattle and tourism.
@constitutionalclarion1901
@constitutionalclarion1901 Месяц назад
True. but whether that remains enough is the question.
@ivanf6938
@ivanf6938 Месяц назад
If it became a state it would start life with its share of what is now a $189 billion dollar debt. That could be split by population in which case it would be about $40b. Or by area. Since they plan to take the minerals and prime agricultural land for themselves it would be fair to split it by potential revenue. In which case it might be over half of the debt. Then there is the 10 to 15 year deficit in infrastructure Labor has left the North, all the replication of services, bureaucracy and government. Then they would have under a million people to tax to make up the difference. One of the stated aims of the move is to rid themselves of the moribund Labor government of the south east. Most of the northern city centres have Labor members now. They will still be there if a new state came into being and contesting their elections. They need to be careful what they wish for.
@jsma9999
@jsma9999 Месяц назад
How long have North Queensland state Idea floating around, Answer 1901 (OK, I might be wrong on the year). Bobby Carter please got back to Trager and leave SEQ alone
@constitutionalclarion1901
@constitutionalclarion1901 Месяц назад
The idea goes back into the nineteenth century, as it was certainly the subject of serious debate in the 1890s.
@jsma9999
@jsma9999 Месяц назад
@@constitutionalclarion1901 thanks
@micksmith7391
@micksmith7391 4 дня назад
Can you do a video on WA seceding please
@constitutionalclarion1901
@constitutionalclarion1901 2 дня назад
Yes, it's on my list. (But the list is quite long...)
@miltgibson9733
@miltgibson9733 Месяц назад
How about eliminating all borders, one size railway line, one law for all people, less politicians and no councils Australia wide
@constitutionalclarion1901
@constitutionalclarion1901 Месяц назад
What a nightmare! It would also be unworkable - I'm not aware of any democratic country that only has one level of government.
@indiathylane2158
@indiathylane2158 4 дня назад
You'd have to have universal time, too, with all the deficits involved. All those different state charges- car rego, rates, land tax, etc. One police force, one fire brigade, one rubbish collection service.......... A single bad government of whatever level could ruin things from wheelie bins to airline flights.
@Dave_Sisson
@Dave_Sisson Месяц назад
Of course it's over 160 years too late, but I wonder if Australia wouldn't be better off with a couple of dozen 'provinces' such as New England, Gippsland, the greater Mt Gambier / Hamilton area, etc. The provinces would incorporate the powers of local councils and only have some of the state powers, with the rest going to the Commonwealth. That would give us only two tiers of government, so less idiot politicians, but genuine local representation in the provincial governments. Of course, it's totally impossible for it to happen now, but I find it an interesting thing to ponder.
@constitutionalclarion1901
@constitutionalclarion1901 Месяц назад
Much harder to coordinate if you have a large number of provinces, and you lose economies of scale. You also end up with much greater centralisation and no competition, resulting in a bloated central government which operates at the lowest common denominator. Countries that are as geographically big as Australia need at least 3 levels of government, and all comparably sized countries are federations with at least 3 levels of government - except Communist dictatorships.
@Dave_Sisson
@Dave_Sisson Месяц назад
@@constitutionalclarion1901 Very good points, but I'm not convinced about the economies of scale argument. Most Aust and Canadian colonies had modest populations when they were granted responsible government in the late 1850s, but they thrived. Today UK colonies with small populations and responsible government like Gibraltar, Bermuda and The Falklands are booming economically and often wealthier than the UK. The costs of running their own affairs don't seem to be holding them back.
@davidbrown4849
@davidbrown4849 Месяц назад
Didn't Gough kick this idea around - have 20 or so provinces and cede some state powers to the Feds and other powers to these provinces. I don;t think it was ever ALP policy.
@irasponsibly
@irasponsibly Месяц назад
​@@davidbrown4849He also wanted more cities than we have now to spread out population growth.
@t-dog8528
@t-dog8528 Месяц назад
Not sure about needing a third tier, the states already control councils, there's only around 26-27 million citizens, there's cities as big as Australia. I may be wrong but it seems there's already too much beaurocrisy so surely we could run a more efficient leaner governance ​@@constitutionalclarion1901
@KarlSmith1
@KarlSmith1 Месяц назад
That's not the real question. The real question is, "Can you split a State into two?"
@josephwinder6878
@josephwinder6878 Месяц назад
And the answer is yes of course you Can. Anything can be done. Doesn't mean it Will be though.
@t-dog8528
@t-dog8528 Месяц назад
Gold Coast and Brisbane would become slums without the regional centres that keep it going, they'll suck the life out of everything that's left
@beththurling4965
@beththurling4965 Месяц назад
why in god’s name would you call a northern state splitting off from Queensland “Kingsland”. The obvious name is “Capricornia”since the vast majority of the state would be inside the tropical zone.
@constitutionalclarion1901
@constitutionalclarion1901 Месяц назад
As I said before - I was being facetious. It's just a play on words - no need to get agitated about it!
@beththurling4965
@beththurling4965 Месяц назад
@@constitutionalclarion1901 sorry if I seemed to be agitated. In fact you aroused by interest in this subject . I think it is ridiculous that people living in the far north-(I used to live in Cairns, now Townsville) over 800 miles north of the capitol city of Brisbane do not have our own state . I am very appreciate of your very intelligent and well thought out opinion on the subject.
@constitutionalclarion1901
@constitutionalclarion1901 Месяц назад
@@beththurling4965 Thanks - much appreciated.
@michaelchandola2779
@michaelchandola2779 Месяц назад
Rockhampton, Townsville and Cairns do not deserve to be in capital cities
@braytongoodall2169
@braytongoodall2169 Месяц назад
I find it pretty discouraging how many comments describe politicians as "idiots" and advocate for a system with less representation. They're accountable to you, and unless you've been copping fines you've also been chosing them. If you want better policy, don't demean the policymakers. It shifts the selection criteria towards "thick skin" and away from others you'd like to see.
@josephwinder6878
@josephwinder6878 Месяц назад
😂😅
@terryjeisman7550
@terryjeisman7550 Месяц назад
The number of state is listed in the constitution, so any isplit of Queensland would take a referendum and the other states couln't give a stuff about North Queensland so getting the numbers will be worse than sleezies' voive question!
@constitutionalclarion1901
@constitutionalclarion1901 Месяц назад
No, that's not right. The Constitution defines 'the States' in covering clause 6 as such of the listed colonies 'as for the time being are parts of the Commonwealth' and such as 'may be admitted into or established by the Commonwealth as States'. Section 124 also clearly permits a new State to be formed by separation of territory from an existing State.
@scott72able
@scott72able Месяц назад
Are you an economics expert? Or a Constitutional expert? Might be a good idea to stick to your knitting.
@anthonywatts2033
@anthonywatts2033 Месяц назад
You, however, just need lessons in civility.
@constitutionalclarion1901
@constitutionalclarion1901 Месяц назад
I'm certainly a constitutional expert, not an economics expert. But I have worked in government and know quite a lot about federalism, so I do have some expertise in this area. If you are interested in the economics aspects, I suggest you have a look at the paper I wrote with economist Glenn Withers, 'Australia's Federal Future' (crawford.anu.edu.au/pdf/staff/glenn_withers/federalist_paper.pdf). It draws together the economic, constitutional and political aspects of federalism.
@virginiacharlotte7007
@virginiacharlotte7007 8 дней назад
@@constitutionalclarion1901 I love this classy comeback to the random internet oik. 😊
@indiathylane2158
@indiathylane2158 4 дня назад
They're knowledgeable enough to offer up a series of ideas and possibilities. Based not on ignorant speculation, but built on a clear knowledge of the constitution. It's entertaining, educational, and thought-provoking. Scott, first thing ppl see when they visit your channel is a pair of buttocks. For some reason, I prefer this channel.
@RegularJoe-hm5xh
@RegularJoe-hm5xh Месяц назад
Why would you want to call NORTH QUEENSLAND "Kingsland"? Is your country still that tied to Britain? Well I guess it is considering your flag and that Australia is still under the British monarchy, a British Dominion or Crown "Realm"and although independent , not really a sovereign nation yet !?? But I'm sure most North Queensland people would prefer "North Queensland"!
@constitutionalclarion1901
@constitutionalclarion1901 Месяц назад
I was being facetious, as I expect you know. I really can't imagine that anyone would want to call it Kingsland - and it was referred to as North Queensland throughout the video, other than in the opening comment. Some have suggested that it should be called Capricornia - but that's about as exciting as the naming suggestions seem to be.
@davidunwin7868
@davidunwin7868 Месяц назад
Queensland was originally going to be called Cooksland (referring to Cpt James Cook) but in order to separate from NSW, Queen Victoria sponsored the separation. Her support was conditional on the state being named Queensland, and the rest is history. It's only fitting that a new state be named in honour of the monarch of Australia.
@josephwinder6878
@josephwinder6878 Месяц назад
Capricornia sounds great to me​@@constitutionalclarion1901
@daveduffy1755
@daveduffy1755 Месяц назад
Kingsland my arse call it Capricorn
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