Thank you. I've viewed probably 10 videos and you were the first to explain thinks that made it easy to understand and still cover the subject very well.
That was as articulate and concise an explanation as I've heard, and just what I needed. Great work.If this were English class you'd get an A, probably with a +.
This was a perfect explanation. I bought an Indian FTR Rally with hybrid tires. I was told never to put the S wheels on it as the rake was different on the S variant. Now I understand perfectly why that would be a problem. Looks like I'm buying another bike. Oh well. Lol
Im doing a hard tail bobber build and only fabricating the tail. Im weighing the pros and cons of leaving the forks stock length but tipping the bike to reduce the ground clearance and lower the center of gravity while increasing fork rake. Obvious negatives are engine will be tipped back slightly. Throwing off the float bowl level wich could be adjusted for. Throwing off oil level wich could be adjusted accordingly depending on if the oil pickup is located front or rear. And esthetically the portion of frame under the engine will not be parallel to the ground. Other option is to lower the forks to maintain original rake while lowering the frame. Do you have an opinion on the risks involved in the first option?
I dont understand why a manufacturer of motorcyles trying to get as many models from a single base platform could not incorporate say a rectangular steering head on the frame (the long dimension of the rectangle in line with the wheels) and then simply have multiple machineed inserts with normal profile round protrusions that exactly accept whichever stem/triple tree one chooses (and basically ANY fork/triple tree COULD be adapted with the right machineed inserts)....Picture also each varient's insert machineed to produce a different rake for a specific purpose making the frame very tunable! You could put different length swing arms differnt sizes of wheels and types /lengths of forks with the most desirable rake and trail for the models purpose! With the identical frame and engine and electrics you could derive a track focused sportbike, a generic naked bike, a sport touring bike and even an adventure bike...And THAT could spell low enough production costs to actually make some very desirable models available at nice pricepoints without tas much compromize that is typically seen...The only downside I can see other than minor expense of multiple parts would be some extra ounces of weight which I think in the grand scheme would be pretty negligble and on a an expensive Limited Edition type thing the inserts could be titanium or whatever idk
Thanks for the awesome video and explanation. I have a question: My 2012 Yamaha Super Tenere has 28° rake, 4.96" trail, and 60.6" wheelbase. I rode a 2014 HD Dyna Fat Bob with 29° rake, 4.92" trail, and 63.8" wheelbase. That seems very similar to me, but I had to wrestle the cruiser into every turn. I'd press and lean and it felt like it wanted to stand back up in the middle of curves. In all fairness, I've only ridden dirt bikes, ADV bikes, and standards. This is the very first cruiser I've ever ridden...ever. My cruiser friends tell me that's just how they feel and that if they got on mine they'd feel odd at how it has no stability. I get that, but I wish I understood why such similar geometry produces such wildly different results. I'm guessing the center of gravity (low heavy cruiser vs tall lighter adv?) and the fat tires were the real difference maker. Is that it?
offset/wheels/tires/machine weight and distribution/seating relative to center and bars and ground etc etc is my guess ....cruisers are ALL F'd up all in the name of looking "bad"...and they are bad just not the bad the typically moto ignorant beholder has in mind Bear in mind if all you changed (if it they would even fit) on the super tenrere was to put twice as fat tires (adjusting rim size so diameters were remained identical) assuming these could fit in the swing arm and forks which they could not but just assume they could anyway ....that bike would be a bear in comparison to steer in the street! It would still steer ok in loose dirt but the friction of the contact patch in the street would be a lot more! (would be so awesome in the sand though compared to stock! Like the old BW200 0n steroids! which incidently I owned a 1985 Yamaha BW200 it was AMAZING in the loose dirt and deep sand but the moment you tried to ride on pavement? ugggg was it a BEAR....just AWFUL and maybe that has to do with why they discontnued such a wonderful machine? Because hardly anyone got to appreciate it and understand it...all that remains is the closely related TW200 with much skinnier still fat tired very forgiving beginner dual sport)
You mentioned a more in depth video. Where can I find that video? I bought my motorcycle used and it seems the rake is greater than stock. I'd like to restore it to stock by adjusting and sliding the front tubes. I'm wondering what is the best and safest way to do that properly. Thanks
@@JamesBiggar The same is true of the rear of the bike. I would love to see a bike with 30" wheel with 90% of the bikes weight below the axles. The forgotten factor involved with handling.
good information. I was looking for how many inches of trail would be an in between for example I'm building a rigid sportster with a springer, is 4.5-5 inches good without getting into more detail
hey. i have a raked front end (no idea what the numbers are) but its pretty far. My bike is the most raked bike in town, at least that ive seen. I have questions about handling a chopper. First of all , im getting CRUSHED by crosswind. I dont recall it being this much of an issue on my lil sporty back in the day. But crosswind feels like its gonna push me over. Pucker factor of 10 when you dont see it coming. also. what is the physics of why its extra easy to dump a chopper when cornering at SLOW, parking lot speeds. A couple times when i first got my bike i almost dumped it and all three times were in or leaving parking lots. what gives?
Interesting....So a fork lowering kit will affect your stability but can't you make the trail difference up in rake lowering the back or do you have to do it at the Triple Tree? Sounds logical. What i'm wondering is....having a lowering kit for both the forks and rear shocks shouldn't they be maximized between the two for best stability? And how would you do that. Lower the ratio starting at stock? Would it be the same stability as designed only lower in overall height? Or just go by what feels right for the rider? And i also want to say J & P Cycles has some really killer videos. Thanks for posting!!
Any modifications in geometry should be made carefully. I have heard, and it makes sense, that if your plan is to lower the bike, lower it to match the stock height (same ratio) to both the front and rear end. Lowering the bike is done at the expense of suspension travel and ground clearance, also lean angle. Increasing rake at the triple tree can be dangerous if not done right. Rather, it can be increased by modifying the neck, but that requires chopping the frame. Trail is also an important factor in stability and often gets neglected by rake modifications alone. So in short, for lowering the bike, balance reduction in both rear and front by equal amounts. For stability vs sharper turning, design your front end (rake a nd trail) appropriately for the intended purpose of your bike i.e. cruising vs sporty riding. Longer wheelbase improves stability, good for highway cruising long straight roads. But it increases turning radius making it difficult to make u turns. It's all about finidng the right balance that works for you. Good luck!
You could make up the trail by slightly adjusting rake after you lowered the bike but that wouldn't be ideal. A lot depends on the height of the front and rear of the bike you start with but, yes if you lower the front of the bike you could lower the rear the same amount. The bike would feel more stable in a straight line but be slower to turn in.
I've just bought a chopper and it's got really bad handling. I've measured the trail and it's a whopping 9 inches does this sound like it could be the cause of my handling issues?
Typically putting struts on the rear drops the frame and increases rake and will add trail to the front end. A 4 inch extension will bring the ground clearance close to stock. The bike will be a little less responsive cornering but more stable at high speeds. Hope that helps. Given how long ago you asked you have already experienced what I am talking about. God speed.
I just belt myself a custom trike Have a pretty good rake on it I'm having to muscle The bike around Corners Is there any kind of steering assist I can put on their Will it bigger tire help
Thanks , I know a Ameteuer group inMaryland that are doing their own raking / customizing with a Sawzall and crappy welding ?? I heard a couple of times they couldn’t make the highway off ramp turns LOL it’s also the same group that likes to pull Wheelies in rush hour traffic on the highway years ago I had my son riding with me when those guys were doing there tricks my son let out a “Coool” under his breath at 8 years old and I told my son those are the same guys that wind up Road Pizza eventually and a highway is the dumbest place to be doing that
wheelbase is measured from the centre of the front axle to the centre of the rear axle, which when you look at it would be the same thing as the contact patch, it's just more accurate to measure from the axle centres...
Thanks, I put 3 degree fork neck cup kit on my 2000 Sporster 1200. Now It pulls into the turns and I have to force the steering back to go straight. Do I have to just remove this kit? Thanks Berry
What makes a low rider a low rider on a stock from the dealer harley. P.S. please don't laugh. Does it just involve the seat, or is the frame sitting lower, or both?
most don't have rake in them stock. And if you add raked trees generally it would make the bike handle worse (slower). It would be more for aesthetics.
On a custom build you can build any project you like. I do agree that the bitch bar and the front end should be relatively at the same angle. If only for aesthetics.
