Great video! I love how you're not afraid to express your subjectivity here. I feel like French composers have been done a disservice here though - Saint-Saëns is underrated and Fauré wrote MANY amazing piano works! (I recommend Hamelin's album of his Barcarolles and Nocturnes). Poulenc too - he is one of my favourites - amazing chamber music. And my favourite French composer of all is actually Alkan - really underrated composer that is gradually becoming more well known. His Concerto for solo piano and Symphonie for solo piano are 2 of my favourite epic pieces. Entertaining list though and it's good to embrace the subjectivity! it's a much more fun video that way, rather than trying to minimize offense to anyone! 😂
Alkan is really underrated these days, he should really get more recognition, his pieces are amazing, his Douze études dans tous les tons mineurs for example is in my opinion a work of all times.
Glad you appreciate it! Clearly I've offended some people, lol. I think most who are offended probably didn't listen to the part about practically all the composers are A or S tier, but I have to rank them relative to each other and someone has to fill the lower ranks. I did a pre-made tier list, and it did have a lot of French composers. My musical style has always leaned a little more Baroque, Clasical, and Romantic, and also more German than French style. So it did end up piling on a little because there were just so many French composers on the list. It makes it seem like I don't enjoy French music though, which isn't true. Even if I prefer the one style doesn't mean I hate the other. But I do admit sometimes videos like this have the effect of piling on. Like Schönburg. I could go on a 10 minute rant about the intricacies of what I like and don't like about him (I took 20th century harmony in undergrad and graduate school and LOVED it). However, I don't love listening to his music much. My default style is to ramble and talk 10 minutes about each composer, but the audience wouldn't stick around for 4 hours for me to explain each composer. So, I oversimply some and the nature of that is some composers get the short end of the stick. Thanks for checking out the video and your well though out comment!
@@ryanabshier It's more fun to have a slightly controversial video anyway, at least it's your honest take. And for all my defence of French composers - I'm actually not THAT massively into Debussy. I do love some of his works but he's not a favourite. I prefer the style of Ravel way more and I find it funny how the two are always compared side-by-side like they're meant to be similar - but I hear them as having completely different styles.
@@Ziad3195 I do. But I wanted roughly the same number of composers per tier. So while I do like him, not more than the composers above him on the list.
@@ryanabshier how dare you?!! What you have done to Ravel is unacceptable. Jeux d'eau, miroirs, sonatine, pavane, piano concertos and many more. Ravel has few pieces but each one approaches perfection. Better than lizst, chopin and the boring romantics for sure. S tier for Ravel. You don't know how angry I am with you and your tier list.
@@orochimaruhatake4045ok buddy you can maybe say ravel composes better than liszt and make an argument but u are absolutely delusional thinking hes better than chopin
Schubert is a minimum A level composer as he is, after Beethoven, the second greatest piano sonata composer. He also wrote the beautiful 8 impromptus and the Wanderer Fantasy. You erred to classify Schubert as a B level.
That was a tough one. I really tried to keep somewhat equality in the totals from each category, so the rankings kept value. So I guess that means I slightly prefer Schumann and Grieg, because if Schubert went up one of them would have to fall for me. But yeah, Schubert hanging out down in B is hard to see. Before I started filming I didn't anticipate such a crunch at the S and A tiers.
@@ryanabshier , I take issue with the Schubert classification because, besides his piano music, Schubert was also a great writer of chamber music, lieder, and symphonic works. He needs to be at least classified as A level. And Rachmaninoff greater than Schubert??!! That makes no sense to me. But thank you for sharing your opinion.
After just three notes you just KNOW it's Clair de Lune. To me, that's genius. Schuberts Impromptus are a must listen too. I don't rank the great composers, I'm just so happy there were so many of them, and I get to hear their masterpieces. The greatest legacy has to be the 32 Beethoven piano sonatas. I love Debussys Preludes too.
Lol, yup. Not arguing much on that one. I mention in the video my challenge was to balance to rating though. But yeah, I say basically all of them are S tiers if compared to other composers.
Obviously my list would be different because our tastes would be different, and i respect different opinions. But to hear that Schönberg and serialism are just "garbage" is not offensive, no one cares, it's just ignorant. I don't enjoy much that style of music either, but it's not as you make it sound, just random notes in random keys "experimenting" (what kind of experiment would that be?) with obsessive music science. They were not just idiots, they were not just making random noise to seek for attention (especially because most of the attention they received was negative, like from you), they were not just doctors playing with math. Schönberg and his school opened the doors of harmony to infinity in classical music, they were much more revolutionary than our beloved Beethoven could ever wish to be. Where you fall, is thinking that music is supposed to "sound good", and if it doesn't it's garbage. Music is an art, and like every art it is first of all a language, a way of communicating; and not every word, not every feeling, not every philosophy can be spoken with nice simple tonal words. Not every poem has to rhyme, not every painting has to be pleasing to the eye (in fact, in the same time as Schönberg, Cubism, Expressionism, Dadaism, Futurism, a lot of "ugly"-looking painting styles were born, breaking the boundaries of visual arts forever). And you saying that Schönberg is garbage is just as ignorant as saying that Picasso is. Just to put in perspective. That whole historic period was going through the deepest artistic revolutions we had ever witnessed, and it was the mirror of a confused, atonal, ugly, tired, decadent society that was seeing all of its old traditions crumble in front of an upcoming mechanic, cold, capitalistic, indifferent, insignificant society. Serialism and atonality can be used profoundly and beautifully, and they do express feelings too, they just are very complicated, harsh, depressed, hopeless, deep and real feelings, that you may not be getting. Everything has its context. That is all i have to say, and mind that i don't mean to insukt you or 'hate' when i say "ignorant". To ignore literally means 'to not know', and that's how you sound when you say Schönberg is garbage, like someone that simply doesn't fully know. It is your opinion and i respect it, but it's an ignorant one
@@mellcrawlerYou're entitled to your ignorant opinion too, I won't judge you can't be bothered. At least you're not trying to pass your content as educational
@@mellcrawlerbut here, good atonal piece by shoenberg: piano concerto klavierstücke, (op 42 andante is a good part) good non atonal piece by shoenberg: insights (op 7: nicht zu rasch best bit)
open your mind a little and look up picasso's early oil works, they were very impressive and he had a great grasp on lighting and contrast, he is definitely not an awful painter in any academic sense and then he took his skills in a different direction and created very influential and original works so idk what you're on about really
Its odd I know, but I used a pre-made tier list and didn't add any of my own. I don't know why he wasn't included, but possibly because the tierlist I used was not piano specific.
Trust me, I know. ☹ Why did I impose stupid rules like balancing our the tiers, lol. I guess from the list that makes Liszt somewhere in my 6-10 favorite composer.
Messiaen is one of the greatest composer i know..... And Liszt has to be on S tier, becuase he invented atonality, impressionism and pushed foward music like no other. Plus has one of the most original harmonies ever. There should be SS-tier, in which has to be Medtner and Scriabin. Medtner is composer that has the best form, structure, tonal harmony and Has the MOST original thematic work ever. And Scriabin is the biggest inovator, has great structure, harmony is absolutelly stunning, and he has made awesome concept of atonal music!
I do not disagree about Liszt, he got moved down simply because I didn't want too many S tier composers. If I included 20-30 "lessor" composers everyone here would get bumped up for sure. Interesting though, many comments want to see Liszt dropped, but it seems like you value later composers a lot. That's cool, as many people value the older ones more.
Mozart on A tier you gotta be kidding me. Jupiter Symphony, Don Giovanni, Magic Flute, 40th sympohny, Requiem, one breathtaking master piece after the next. The Jupiter symphony has 5 movements all beautifully intertwined what other composer can compete? He's also the most prolific of all composers. Should be an automatic S.
I mentioned at the beginning that I was ranking only based on piano output, so hope that clears it up. I know many people feel he's strong enough with just piano rep as well, but I happen to have him in my top 10, but not top 5 piano composers.
Okay, most of your list is fine. And you do admit the subjectivity of the list, that it very often reflects simply your taste. Fair enough. But you also expect serious disagreements. I have two. Well, they're really more than serious. I very much disagree with your evaluation of Schönberg. First he didn't write a lot of piano music, and it's not what he's famous for. He might not should be on the list at all. But since he's there . . . . I admit that his Suite for Piano, Op. 25, is tough. But I really like his Three Pieces for Piano, Op. 11. And his Six Little Pieces for Piano, Op. 19 are beautiful. Some of them are charming. And neither Op. 11 nor Op. 19 are "scientific" in the slightest. Op. 25 was transitional to the 12-tone pieces to come. Even more horrible is that Scriabin didn't even make the list! Schönberg is on the list, and Scriabin isn't? You can't be serious. Sure there are the five symphonies, but most of his output was piano music. In my view, he's right up there with Beethoven. Seriously, his Sonata No. 3 is a show-stopper, and the last five sonatas are transcendent. And for an encore, let's have his Etude, Op. 8 No. 12. And if sheer output is a criterion, as I might have implied, I guess it's only fair to mention Czerny. But he did let his teaching pieces get in the way of realizing his artistic potential.
I already know this video will piss off everyone lmao, we take ourselves too seriously as classical music bros let’s be real. Like yeah I love Messiaen and Mendelssohn but everyone is entitled to their taste. Enjoyed the video.
Mahler stinks!!! Lol, not really. I'm just ranking composers by their piano repertoire so unless I'm mistaken he barely wrote solo piano music, or not at all.
@@triumphantmichael yeah, Handel as an overall composer would be higher. Just for his keyboard/piano contributions, there's just not much to work with. I do have a few of his pieces I really like, but it's more of a quantity rating.
@@ryanabshier Well, that explains it. I wrote a big long comment, half about Scriabin and half about Schönberg. A quarter of my post was that Schönberg was even on the list at all, and another quarter was that Scriabin wasn't on the list at all. Then I set out defending both composers. I posted it, I guess, 45 mins. ago, and then I set out to see if anyone else was as offended as I was about the inclusion and the omission. So I've found a Scriabin fan, maybe two.
Yeah, as I mentioned in the video i tried to make all the categories the same size. So only 5 S tiers. If you move some up others have to go down. It's a tough challenge, but I think I'll keep my degrees 🤣
the only thing i find odd is grieg being ranked above haydn, schumann, liszt, mozart, mendelssohn debussy and ravel (atleast i think these are in order too?)
Thanks for checking out the video! Hmm, I don't think the rows are necessarily in order (though I might have ordered the first row). I do love Grieg and feel like he has a cool "niche" factor, relative to some other composers. However, I recognize that he is probably on the weaker side of the A tiers for this list. I've considered doing a straight up top 10 or top 20. It would be tough to assign an absolute order, but also pretty fun.
8:30 do secondary school in Singapore, a “B” is a >= 60% 😂😂😂 (“A2” is a >= 70% and “A1”is a >= 75%, “C” is a >=50%) So it’s A1 A2 B3 B4 C5 C6 D7 E8 F9 where each grade goes down by 5%, starting at 75% for the best grade (This for secondary sch btw, primary school is different I think)
I can understand your list, when you look at piano pieces. Other than that, Monteverdi and Bach are "Boss tier", rest is "footnote tier" (with some good footnotes like Haendel, Dvorak, Faure or Palestrina, and some bad ones like the overrated boy called Mozart or the overrated Beethoven with his mostly boring absolute music) 😉
It's devastating that you've missed out Scriabin from this list. It's Scriabin who takes to Chopin's tradition in both melodic style, texture, and form far more than Rachmaninov whose solo piano music is more textural and rhythmic. Agree with most of your other rankings though. I can see why you put Liszt and Mozart in A tier. Liszt is great but leans towards style over substance (though the substance is great too, just not as much), and even though I prefer the charm of Mozart's sonatas to Beethoven's in general, I can't deny that Beethoven's are more significant piano works and he does a great deal more with the form.
Hi, thanks for checking out the video. I used a pre-made tier list and Scarlatti wasn't on there and the website makes it really hard to add anyone. But yeah, he should be on there.
He is rather remarkable. Such an output in such a short life (and not just piano either). It makes you think, what if Beethoven had died at age 31. His last piano sonata would have probably been #15 Op. 28. It also makes you curious how Schubert's style would have evolved, considering he was a very early Romantic composer, yet only 10-15 years older than many of the other Romantics (Schumann, Chopin, Liszt, Mendelssohn, Wagner). Thanks for checking out the video!
Please explore Prokofiev more. His piano concertos are pretty amazing. His output for piano may not be enough -- he did write some wonderful string works -- but not that much piano. His Vision Fugitives is worth a listen. He does have an interesting mix of bombast and nostalgia.
This list is optimal for hobbyists and pianist only He judge composers tier with good melody and harmony only. Most important orchestration, avant garde and non major piano composers are put at rank B or below, lol
I'm crying when you put Mozart in A. He is so underrated on many lists, while he was the most talented in classical music compared to everyone on the list
Not having Tchaikowsky (or even mentioning him once) in here I see as an oversight... so I will wait for this list to be completed in the future. However, if this choice is intentional I regard your list, and sensibilities, to be E tier - with good behaviour a possible D.
Thank you! I honestly can't stand composers like Messiaen or Schoenberg either. I'm really not a fan of composers who write music that feels like they're just trying to show off how different and "smart" they are instead of trying to write something that sounds genuine. It's not even about atonality and chromaticism either, their music just sounds so pretentious to me regardless.
"I'm really not a fan of composers who write music that feels like they're just trying to show off how different and "smart" they are instead of trying to write something that sounds genuine." Me either. I enjoy Schoenberg and Messiaen though! Both composers are as genuine as it gets...
But but but but but....yeah I know. I didn't want too many composers in S tier, and I do like Chopin and Brahms more than Liszt. Maybe I should redo this and add in 20 not as good composers (like Clementi) to bump up everyone else 😀
🤣🤣🤣 oversimplification on my part for sure, didn't want the video to be 4 hours with a long rant on each composer. You, however, have the best comment about my Schönburg dig!
And was rather harsh of you to put Mendelssohn in the C category. And you also lost me when you demoted Schubert from the B list down to the C list that was uncalled for.
Hi Greg, sorry to rank your favorite composers so low. I hope you saw the part of the video where I mentioned balancing the tiers. So for Mendelssohn or Schubert to move up someone else would have to drop down. Difficult decisions for sure, but if I gave every composer an A or S it wouldn't mean much. Hope that clears things up.
Yeah, not an easy job. You're always insulting someone by moving someone else up. Cool idea though, but then people would argue about which piece i call their greatest 🤣
Thanks! Glad you liked it. Mostly just want people to have a good time chatting about composers. Yeah, you know, he's the only one that looking back on I regret cutting a little. I did it mostly as a joke (I like butchering French pronunciation because it's sooooo incredibly difficult), but of the people I cut he actually did contribute quite a bit to the piano. I mentioned in another comment replay somewhere that I simply don't know his music well enough, so I would have given him a generic C/B just out of ignorance and it would have been not that helpful. The take away here i think is I need to give his music another shot.
I know. I stopped trying with French names 🤣 You can either just go full American with them and get picked on, or try to say them right and get picked on more. There are only 2 options.
For sure the best French composer between the careers of Berlioz and Debussy. He was also a great teacher at the Paris conservatory too! Very underrated.
Nice, glad you agree with a lot. I love Liszt too, he would definitely move up if the tierlist included more composers (so more per tier). However, judging from the comments here some people HATE my Liszt placement already, they feel he's garbage. Kinda shocking.
Ar least I had Bach in the top tier, being your profile pic and all. But yeah, poor Mozart. He's just not in my top 5 composers, so he didn't make the cut.
@@evanwyatt2862 🤣, so true. Thanks for the comment, it really brightened. When I filmed this tierlist I never anticipated 1. It doing so well. I make a lot of videos on piano technique and practice, so this is the minority of videos for me. Like, for the most part I try to help people get better at piano. I don't just make tierlists every day for views. But I thought, hey, this could be a fun video to watch (because I like watching tierlists). And 2, yeah, people writing "I'm offended by the placement of..." Like, if anything my picks are boring and probably too typical. But they aren't facts, it's who I like to play and listen to. You can like someone different. Again, thanks for the comment!
@ryanabshier Exactly. You're not claiming that one of these composers is better than another. It's about enjoyment. For example, I don't care for Rachmaninoff too much because of his melodic skills, but obviously, he's still amazing. His control of texture and harmonie can not be replicated! Thanks for the spectacular video again!
Lol, you're the first to point that out. He lost a lot of weight for the photo 🤣🤣🤣 I just used a premade tierlist on and wasn't really focused on him because I was removing him. I wonder who it is? At first I thought thought it might be Ashkenazy, but not so much when I zoomed in. Thanks for checking out the video and the kind words. Glad you enjoyed it!
Start HERE - J. S. Bach. The GOD of Music. Then add the following, in no particular order: Beethoven - Mozart - Brahms - Then add a smattering of other composers, a dozen or so. Beyond those ... and one or two compositions from another few dozen as genuine examples of great music by great composers -
Beethoven is in C tier for me. Mozart and Debussy are the best keyboard composers of all time. Did you forget Mozart Piano sonatas and concerti? And yeah, I like Messiaen and Ravel a lot. Also, Brahms never sounded simmilar to Beethoven, not in piano, not in orchestral music, not in chamber music, etc. Can someone tell me if you ever mistaked a Brahms piece for a Beethoven piece, like ever? Appreciate the Haydn in A. Also, Poulenc is not an impressionistic composer. Only Debussy can be called that, even if he hated the label, and maybe Ravel, but to a much lesser extent. But Poulenc? No, not at all. Really agree with Schubert. Your attitude towards Atonal, Serial and 20th century music is really strange. "Garbage and not msuic" huh? Schoenberg 3 piano pieces, Op. 11 is really nice. And Satie wrote some nice pieces that are not Gymnopédies and Genossinnes. Also, why did you leave out Fauré? He wrote a lot of piano music. Enjoyable video though.
how dare you?!! What you have done to Ravel is unacceptable. Jeux d'eau, miroirs, sonatine, pavane, piano concertos, and many more. Ravel has few pieces but each one approaches perfection. Better than lizst, chopin and the boring romantics for sure. S tier for Ravel. You don't know how angry I am with you and your tier list.
@@octopuszombie8744 haha, yes, so true. And list like this seem to be the most controversial, even though it's just an opinion. Thanks for checking it out!
I think you should listen to the water music of haendel,that maybe will change your mind to B because I really like them and you could like them too ❤😊,and I would have added all of them on S in term of music but if we’re talking about classical I agree on your tier list except for Liszt because he is my favorite
Chopin did something similar like Bartok. He implemented polish folk dance/music in his own pieces. When he was younger he visited Polish villages and listened to their music and wrote similar melodies in this own pieces
One more adjustment. I know it seems sacrilegious, but Mozart down to B. Brahms just doesn’t reach me on any level…the best he’s ever done was to steal from Beethoven.
If it was just a matter of who has more prowess as a pianist/composer, then it’s Chopin, no contest. If it’s a matter of star power/cultural relevance it’s Mozart, no contest.
Haha yeah, someone mentioned that. In my defense this is a pre-made tierlist on tiermaker. So I'm lazy, not mistaken. Or maybe Rossini went on a big diet 🤣
Yeah, there are a few unfortunate omissions. Though I'm super thankful for whoever put the tier list together for everyone to use, I'm sure it's tough to decide who to include.
