100% agree with Dorki. Bad camera angles are the difference between enjoying a dungeon and not. Not being able to see the dungeon, your own character, your teammates, enemies....its not enjoyable. Its like playing a game in 240p. And taking avoidable damage and/or dying doesnt feel deserved because you're staring half at the staff on your character's back and half at the inside of a mobs body. I prefer to see the game I'm playing if at all possible lol
100% agree. There shouldn’t be anything that can get in the cameras way at max distance. Even if there are trees, it shouldn’t exist for the camera looking down through it.
Waycrest is legit my least favorite dungeon this season, and I would say 60% of the reason why is because of the bad camera angles. It's so bad every time I do that god forsaken place I'm just running on tilt the entire time.
100% agree, having a fucked camera is so annoying and unfun. Max's take on that was super bad. Seems like Max has quite a few L takes when it comes to visual stuff, which surprises me.
@@shadowdragon8168 It's a very confusing take by Max for sure. Getting hit by stuff and dying literally JUST because you can't see anything with a tree in your face or your camera up your ass is the very definition of toxic.
Came for the vibes with dorki, max, growl, drat, was not disappointed. Also it had that old dude that sits on his porch yelling about everything possible.
@@Comatose1231 I love JB, but his discription of JB is very acurate. The old guy sitting on his porch yelling about everything possible, can be very lovable aswell.
@@Comatose1231 bro give it up. You tried to make a point, it failed. You got called out and now you're futility trying to say "just trolling bro". Pretty sad. Take the L and move on with your life before you embarrass yourself further.
It's interesting that you guys love all the dungeons that low 20's healers hate. High enough for those challenging bosses to be truly hard to heal, but not high enough for DPS to know how to press defensives properly. The amount of times I had DPS not pressing their walls until after the damage event, reacting to getting low, in keys like AA or HoV... made me hate healing those.
Amen. Never understood why people pressed their defensives until AFTER they get fucking nuked by an unavoidable AOE. Like, there's literally nothing happening after it so why even press the button lmao.
Like when someone has the bleed on iridikron and they don't use any defensives on the soak. Warlock died and was like "i hit death's pact" yea a 30% health shield aint stopping most of that, use unending resolve for straight damage reduction for something that important
@@1un4cy I main a healer, so im more ore less in tune when to use defensives. Yesterday while playing an alt had a healer who just ignored me when i got the dot 3 times in a row :) i would die before the aoe soak starts. Good thing we had Battle rezes :) this was in a 20. I was baffled how he had timed a 20 before.
I know this is older, but it’s kinda weird that they mention a dungeon being linear is bad but also say “you have to go the right way” in things like brackenhide? Is it just the _idea_ of non-linearity that’s wanted?
Obviously none of them healed Nokhud as a Prevoker. Where your dps is all the way the fuck in Antarctica on the 2nd boss, so none of your spells reach them and your aoe spells only hit half the party. And then people getting one shot by the adds on the last boss. C Tier dungeon at best.
Not that anyone is reading this, but Galakrond's Fall is kinda nice, because even if you fail it, you feel like you could do better. The dificultyness in it feels achievable. Unlike Everbloom or DHT. Where you just hope for the best the whole run
Algathar bird boss might be the worst boss this season, it was broken in like 7 different ways. The bleed being cauterized was dumb, the fire swirlies having terrible visuals was annoying, the ball things would bug out a lot, mages could infinitely kite the boss, los'ing the screech, etc. No clue how that boss didnt just get its numbers gutted to make it free if they werent going to bother fixing it at all
Sometimes the bird adds before the boss just decided they didn't want to show up like a few weeks in and would brick a key until people figured out how to get them unstuck. And even then I think you needed certain classes in order to do it. I just know I wasn't one of the classes
Interesting to see such a different perspective. Absolutely hated Underrot in S2. That area around second boss was so painful. Also I don't get why are they asking for more mobs that don't do anything. If they don't do anything whats the point? Take a pen and draw more mobs on your monitor then.
I feel like I'm the only person that dislikes underrot. I enjoyed it in bfa because I only played that last season and the pilar skips were a ton of fun but I was only doing like 18-20 as it was my first time playing in 6+ years. In season two I think I had everything at 25 or higher but underrot was only a 22 or 23 it was so bad. Everyone I ran with was bad at worms, over slapping kicks, and the 2nd boss bricked so many runs. Also BH had to be my favorite one this expansion but only if you had the god comp or something close to it. So many different things you could do and so much trash you would pull you could do or skips you could do and non required a shroud. Tho you did need a priest or the enjoyment was bricked.
Insight for S2: From someone who does light pushing, but mostly farms weekly 20s, the start of the season and god comp part was a huge issue for those types of keys. They were much togher then they ever needed to be for non-god comp groups. Anyone who was the guilds Warlock, Rogue, any other healer, non bear tank and other things was so bad. It was infinitely tougher to do then any other season by alot. I rerolled guardian cause it was the nearly the only tank being invited.
Probably the hardest to heal non legion season ever to a point where it was becoming toxic for non hardcore/pro healers. My highest timed Uldaman was a 17. The only non legion dungeons i did not time at 19+ level. Pug healers were simply unable to heal that key. I've seen relatively high ranked pug healers struggling to heal this dungeon in a 15-16 tyr. I was surprised to see Uldaman that high for me it would have been easily ranked F.
One thing I will say, is I hated going to Azure Vault. And the only reason is bc there would always be someone that just never decided to learn the mechanics of it every. single. time. I didn't run high keys that season, but people would butt pull, tank not have the right route. It was bad almost every time.
I think its time to bring someone who pug keys, the fact that you consider normal the scaling of the last boss in Nokhud is insane, that Boss was a pug serial killer wasting al lyour time (23-25ish)
The fact Thundering was so bad of an affix that they just gave up on seasonal affixes entirely, after shadowlands season 3 and 4 were both absolute bangers.
As an entirely soloplayer who pugs, watching this video has really shown me that people who play in comps and in groups have entirely different opinions on dungeons. Maybe the playerbase gets better in the higher end at like 27+ but as someone more casual who only does 23-26 range, seeing dungeons that give me literal PTSD from pugging being placed so high is shocking. You're telling me that people don't die to the last 2 bosses on halls of valor, any boss of ruby, 2nd and 3rd for Underrot??? (And don't get me started on Murozonds Rise) That people actually do mechanics ?? That's crazy, maybe I need to find a group to play with 💀
Algeth'ar was the ultimate noob detector. I would calculate the probability of timing the key, based on the number of players that took the 5% vers buff.
Maybe I missed you guys touching on this for Atal'Dazar, but the one thing I always feel is that it feels like the dungeon only really has one boss (that's overtuned). The first three bosses are so cakewalk tier, and you only really find out how long the dungeon is going to take you when you get to Yazma. Absolutely hated that about it.
my top timed key currently is fall..... we had 30 deaths..... and still almsot 2x'd it. that key is so fucking free it's crazy when it doesn't get timed.
Nokhud Offensive being in B tier instead of F or D tier instantly loses them credibility. The Dragonflight dungeon pool aside from Algethar's and Azure Vault is probably the worst since M+ came out in Legion.
That dungeon has 3 boring bosses, the first is an actual 1/10 snooze with one person calling kicks for minutes on end. Density is the only win it has going for it. B tier at best. Can’t be S if the bosses are bad.
I think if the third boss and trash didn’t one shot tanks on every mechanic that wasn’t a prot pal it would’ve been great. Last boss was oof without priest
@@LATHSPELL70 i liked mobs interaction with spell reflection i remember taunting those Shas to do big dam with spell reflection and also save tank in high keys obvs coms group
I mean you love Everbloom if you're playing VDH and Prot Paladin all day. Do it on another tank that can't trivialize the Magic Damage or DreadPetal damage amp/slow. Then it's an absolute D tier dungeon.
I think peoples opinion of it would change with the current set of affixes, I just remember a lot of the affixees being a pain. I think its a bit overrated, the tree boss area is all most people remember it for.
@@livvw well yes definitely, and also, there's several major different frames of reference for how you view them, based on time, and the level of content you wanted to do. I just casually did KSM on a pres evoker and a Prot warrior, so I'm certainly not a bleeding edge player, which makes a lot more sense why I would place AA as top tier, it's just fun, meme worthy, and not overly stressful on ~16/17
I'd love to have gone back and done season 1 without all the garbage affixes. Thundering, quaking and explosive made a lot of dungeons toxic for overlapping boss mechanics with these affixes.
5 adds 13 minutes in is crazy. Is my RU-vid bugging out? Edit* yep an ad every 2 minutes of a 2 hour video is crazy. Not sure what's happening but I really want to watch this video but literally can't.
Healer (didn't get anywhere near high keys in S1): AA was fine, once ppl learned how the tree boss worked it was pretty puggable. CoS was cool with the profession stuff (I'm an alchemist so I got to poison the guy), and the middle bit was kinda neat but then the boss in the overhang sucked and the last boss was just okay. I really liked Nokhud as a healer. Tempest on Tyran weeks felt very rewarding to complete, the best week that season was the bursting/grievous week for me doing Nokhud. Stacking on the centaurs, activating the ballistae for Granith(?) and everything ppl needed to do for last boss was good. My least favorite dungeons were probably Nelth's Lair and Brackenhide. Not having a poison dispel on BH made going left after first boss extremely obnoxious and Nelth's Lair the one-shot earthquake thing was annoying with no indicator. Now I know about addons to time those so I probably wouldn't have trouble with it anymore but still, not the greatest design.
@@Aggrofool no, the dungeon in general sucks without disease dispels but quite a few classes have those. The left route immediately after the first boss has a bunch of mobs that teleport to people and inflict I THINK a haste reducing DoT poison that kinda trucks if it stacks up a bit.
It's weird that they seem to rate dungeons based on if **** one shot them or not while me a casual player doing 24-25 keys and pugging healers i would rate dungeons based on if the pug healer can heal the rot damage or not (with me helping him with my CDs and pot). Everbloom would have been much lower in my ranking. I tried to like this dungeon but finding a pug healer able to heal the rot damage in this dungeon is super hard. I've timed both Murozond and TotT in 24 and i feel like i could time them in 25 (given the opportunity) yet i'm still stuck in 23 for Everbloom despite many attempts to time it in a 24 just because the pug healer can't heal the rot damage and there's too many interrupts to do and i'm a range so i can't help much on that.
I like your tier list, just some adjustment : TOTT D tier, ToJS C tier, Algethar academy S tier, Ruby life pool S tier, Season 2 F tier (Neither you play one of the meta spec, nor you're out of >+20) Just 1 god comp deserve Z tier to me. It was a terrible time to play M+ for any spec other than god comp, and I am saying that as a healer.
Court and Shadowmoon are singularly responsible for capping IO score from untimed keys at +20. They were wildly out of sync with the other S1 dungeons.
I have a love hate relationrelationship with ship with Court of starts. Me and my buddies ran that dungeon non stop cause 3 of us needed wet stone and also the ring. Overall we ran that dungeon around 100 times before we got it on all the chars. Never played legion so that’s why I enjoyed it a bit more. But ye after a 100 tries I don’t want to see that place ever again
I think Rise would feel a lot, lot better if the route was cleaner and there was significantly less mandatory wasted time. Between RP, portals and just meh boss design, the key just feels slow and sluggish. It's near the polar opposite of Fall -- generous timer and solid release points makes the key very forgiving, whereas Rise is a key where the timer straight up lies to you and one wipe pretty much means a dead run.
I think one of the biggest strengths of HoV is just how dominant the bosses are, they're all incredibly memorable and fun to play. I don't even mind them being massively overtuned at the start, I'm still playing fun bosses.
AV was so fun because of the different routes and skips you could do If they bring it back in s4 they better let us jump down again or i'm gonna be pissed.
it is so interesting to see your pov of this. for me, someone who started playing wow in shadowlands and now currently at 3,6k rio this is the best season ever. I kinda like every dungeon and every dungeon has some strength. yeah some bad shit and tuning but overall I like the old dungeons way more then all the dragonflight dungeons. for you all the old (current season) dungeons got worse for me they are great cause I don't know them in another way. the df dungeons are just worse I dunno. s1 and s2 were so bad. bad old dungeon plus bad df dungeons. in the end its just different opinions and like I said, very interesting to listen to yours!
I'm pretty casual, I am doing 20-24s this season and dont push into high keys. But I don't quite understand why people are so opposed to Augmentation Evokers? Can someone explain? :) Thanks
Because in season 2 when they came up they became required to the point where the god comp was so much better and it was a result of which class interacts best with Aug the possible key level went up my like 3 or 4 if u had an Aug
I hope we dont face another dungeon like Vortex Pinacle ever again. This apply to Neltharus and Halls of infusion aswell. Garbage dungeons that are huge and boring.
Opinions vary wildly between people who just do their 16-20s for vault and heroic gear, people who push low-mid 20s, and people pushing 27-28+ and in super competent groups
Dratnos is always the best guest for me (JUST MY OPPIINIIOONNN!!! 😂). He gives both positive and negative feedback, and in such a level headed delivery. Most of the guests just seem like a ball of negativity, and just rage dump non-stop. It just sucked all the joy out of things. Also, being nothing but positive isn't useful either, but that is way more rare of an occurrence 😂
Underot is the worst dungenom they have made last 10 year. Its absolutly impossible to do in a pug. At +5 or +15. I havnt gotten past the 2nd boss all season. Pugs dont know where to stand and what to do with the bugs soaking.
Pro Players have really different views….. also play keys up to 26…however, would rate things different. Please less kicks und more pulling big and having fun
this is really crazy to watch. i feel the opinions here are so different from my own experience and i hit 3k rio in season 1 and 2 as well as 2500 in s3 and to me i loved dungeons like vortex pinnacle and shadowmoon burial ground but i absolutely hated underrot. i just find it so crazy that these are the people that can influence things when their takes are so off. like imagine this list would be the season 4 dungeons then i would have to sit through underrot, azure vaults, halls of valor and ruby life pools again, 4 of the worst dungeons this game has seen in mythic plus. That would be a nightmare. i will say though that i agree with algethar, freehold and brackenhide and i would even bump them up 1 rank.
1:26:25 The camera angles are actually the absolute worst in waycrest though, with afflicted and incorporeal weeks that dungeon is just straight up unplayable.
Couldn’t agree more. I love these guys and the podcasts but holy shit they’ve cooked something up here. Halls of Valor in the same league as Algethar/Brackenhide is just a fucking crime.
Rise has 2 terrible bosses, the travel and RP time plus the sand room. Morchie is such a pain in the ass in a PUG purely because the platform is so big you can’t easily see which one is right Timelost battlefield would be super cool if you couldn’t target the random mobs with no nameplate, tab targeting never works consistently
How the fuck did Halls of Valor end up in A? Everyone hated it when it was current and everyone I've ever spoken to hated it when it came back, you have to double back on yourself twice, wait for RP, several of the bosses do nothing interesting. It's just De Other Side with vikings.
Shadowmoon is easily "Z" tier. As a BDK main, the amount of times I had to solo the last boss because dps were too dumb to focus 1 mob and clear a path is unbelievable. I got my portal for this dungeon from soloing Ner'zul from 48% HP.
All I'm saying is that Arcway is the better Suramar dungeon... Court of Stars is only "good" because it was the only 3 quick dungeon next to Maw of Souls
The only thing that depresses me about this list is that Underrot got put in S tier, that dungeon is horrendous, first boss is ok, second boss is aids having to constantly run over those blood things, third boss is mid, and the last boss is a fucking snooze fest and horrible to do at the same time due to having to wait for those stupid blood things to spawn to actually deal dmg to the boss. How Underrot made it into S tier is beyond me.
last boss dht is ridiculous with the rng puddles giving him the dmg buff. Shit is horrible. And the keepers giving 3 count but the flowers giving 4 is soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo stupid.
I love how in these videos they always rank the shitty dungeons top. Can tell these are the top players, cause every person I talk to I am fairly sure they would agree to basically flip this list in reverse for the average person running maybe up to 20s.
