Recorded CloudFlare Firing And CEO Response 

That was such a cold line by the HR. Damn Still dont like HR, but respect.

I fucking hate HR

​@@dawidvanstraaten crappy HR must be universal. i've never had half-decent HR in any of my jobs

I would have started calculating that meeting time and glassdoor estimates for the salaries of all the roles represented on the call and told them to bring that to "Revenue Leadership" as a detected inefficiency. Perhaps there are other departments that could use "Collective Recalibration"

100%

There is still grey area around. What if the company get rid of unit X team consisting of 20people (mass layoff). Then supporting horizontal teams (test engineers, devops, etc) may need to downsize their head count as well but by 1-2 headcount only - mass layoff or shrinkage of “low performance”

@@web I believe that would still count.

not the definition of layoff vs fired.

Whats even more scumbag of companies to do is layoff a team(s) and rehire somewhere else (cheaper labour) for that team immediately... :)

So remember those times when software engineers were like, nah we don’t need a union

As someone whose been through a few of these Zoom firings, I would MUCH rather Skynet shitcan me 😅

the latter would go down better with the former

If my boss said that me. I would throw my computer out the window and change my name.

:(

Story of my life

I made similar bad jokes, when i was young, like: getting laid for work and getting late for work.

I agree man the numbers thing isn't always a good way to judge, it's like like a support who only heals the tank gets big numbers but doesn't help anyone else

Honestly, you probably have a good case for wrongful termination if you were "fired" vs "laid off" (the distinction matters for things like unemployment compensation and general perception when looking for the next job).

i wish we remove numbers from humans. exams are for a reason the killers of creativity. anyways, hopefully in a startup. no management. directly interaction with the ceo everyday. self management and most importantly no numbers to run for... i know its double edge sword. but relations are more important than number. there are better ways to judge. other good ways. once people start to run beind number, see numbers as target rather than motivation to do stuff. passion. it will be worse. same situation. or maybe worse. self management. self motivation. leadership. thats whats needed rather than some management guy looking at numbers. who can not do anything, becomes manager. imho, f8ck management...

All business are slaughterhouses but unless cutting whole departments/products, it's a rarity for a really good engineer to be fired based on some algorithm-more often than not, if a 'star' engineer is getting fired without a directly attributable reason, it's because their manager placed them on the bottom of the list, usually for personal reasons.

Ah, it's the typical "more lines of code = good" mentality from HR or hireups who don't understand that the best programmers either write very little but efficient code or are in the negatives in terms of code lines because they fix and optimise the rest of the code published by others.

I wasn't fired but quit a job with a... whopping... 2 hours notice. I was just done. They were pure scum. I had 4 offers from clients by the end of the next day. Shit was dope and I kicked myself in the ass for not leaving sooner. This woman will, no doubt, bounce back. Some company will pick her up as a "we're not as terrible as the other guy's" which, they most likely are, buuuuuut money _is_ money.

@Mittke88 "not always" is the key part. Once a close family member died and I just continued, "it's not always the worst thing that can happen". Even if that's true for me, I'm not going to force you into this.

Same got laid off by a big corporation, I really enjoyed my job, thought I would never find anything with the same perks and found something better about 2 weeks later. I don't believe in God but the universe just dropped me a killer deal when I needed it.

I was fired. Next job was a 33% raise. Massively improved my work life balance and work culture. Being fired was a big hit to my ego but it was one of the best turning points in my life.

Now try being a freelance coder. ;) You will need to sell and code.

Wait till you cause your first Sev 1

@@Dead_Goat This is a lot easier than you think. Useful software sells itself, and then the burden becomes managing the company entirely, WHILE still managing the software, and then all of the other aspects that become overwhelming. Ask me how I know O_o

As a salesperson who is studying software dev, this is comforting to hear

Definition of "it wasn't meant to be". Fate has a greater plan for you.

at this point, get laid off sound better

Only Mike O'Hearn can do this while listening to "What is Love"...

That would be interesting.

Hilarious lmao

😂

Then get chatgpt to write a legal email to threaten hr if they don’t comply booom uno

Write everything on Glassdoor, nobody wants to work for assholes like them. I sure check everything before i even apply, small companies are great, assholes will never be good enough.

That's rough. I had a crappy director call me while I was on vacation (which i rarely took) and left a voicemail to tell me I got walking papers.

what happens if you just dont open it? Are you still employed?

@@pluto8404100% YES😂

Did they go broken wtf

it's all the same with lay-offs. No matter how long a person has been with the company, it'll be inflicting trauma unless the person has known he's going to get laid off.

Losing your f***ing livelihood "effective immediately" is ALWAYS traumatic.

It can definitely be traumatic: - If you left a job to start this job - if you were at your previous job for 4 years and left for this one - you took this job because it was more money, or even worse - your old job matched the offer and you still decided to leave for this new job

There's a reason it's called Human Resource, they just see you as a resouce.

For any newbs reading these comments, never fucking forget this. I don't care how cool or real or kind HR personnel may be, they are there to protect the company - to help the company deal with its humans. Watch what you say around HR or to HR in all situations. This is as reliable as a law of physics.

100% !!! And people think it’s the other way around.

Absolutely!!!

It's just the sick understanding of the US work culture. HR has to do BOTH. Caring and Protecting the people and the company. Those are not opposites. But it's nothing that is part of the US work culture :) Yet?

Am I hearing fruit baskets?

Pizza party. 1 Pizza for the whole team.

Right. Brittany needs to go work at walmart, what a cry baby

Unfortunately we can't provide the support you are communicating at this moment with regards to your request for immediate medical care. Please assured we care about your well being and will send a doctor to your location in 4 to 6 weeks.

@@ashvio Strong GLaDOS vibes, especially from Portal 1. She'd say the most crazy things (e.g. asking if you're interested in donating your vital organs to a self-esteem fund) in the most corporate and soft language

I have to assume any attorney that fights unjust firings could invalidate the hell out of this with 1 simple sentence. "Show me the metrics of even a single employee that meets these expectations."

@@alex-ei5pu yea sure in civilized countries they can do this. Americans with their "at-will" employment can be fired for any, no reason, at any time.

One thing the labor middle class population in WEIRD countries DON'T realize... Is that the level of non "weird" behavior their managerial class is used to on a day-to-day basis is no better than that of a developing country's wet market seller trying to sell you the meat that they couldn't sell the day before at the highest price possible. The level of conniving, lying, favouritism and nepotism that is handled at the highest socio economical structures is hidden with pseudo rules and convenient bureaucracy, now that intellectual competency is becoming extremely competitive in the labor market, it is becoming extremely apparent, but some folks still refuse to believe...

Yup.

Severance packages are at the discretion of the company. If they don't want to pay they are under zero obligation to do so.

I think it's baked into the language. When you work, you're not a person, you're a resource. And when you buy things to live, you're not a person, you're a consumer. I understand we need words for these things, but the words that were chosen come from a very specific kind of inhuman corporate culture.

People irl have to be careful with what they say and don’t say. Legal stuff

@@xXBRgamesXx Oh do they. I had no idea

@@ryanleemartin7758 Based on your comment, you had no idea now fuck off

its a extension of modern psychology

Yes, business is largely built on exploitation. If you're not overworking your employees you're not running a good business.

More like, "We want to get rid of you, but we don't want to pay you any severance. That's why we are going to lie that your performance sucks"

in Germany when you are still in probation, neither you or the company need a reason to fire you

I've been on both sides of the probationary fence and frankly we just need to do away with it. Jobs should be offered on a contract-to-permanent basis. The understanding should be that the employee is free to continue looking elsewhere and interview for the first three months, completely openly, until the employer makes up its mind. Over-hiring because a % of your new hires will turn out to be shit is a valid concern, but you can't pass ALL of the risk and responsibility downstream, it's completely unbalanced.

@@kuhluhOG which is actually a good thing, especially as there are limits to the probation duration

yep, it's all about not getting sued + pr

Which is exactly the problem. Companies should be able to lay people off willy nilly (as long as it’s not discrimination) and not be afraid to say why. “We overhired” in this case.

​@@sofianikiforova7790 or maybe don't overhire. Here in italy you have a 60 days period to evaluate you new hires and then you can fire them only if they break the contract, which is usually if they do illegal stuff or don't show up, or if you close down. That of course makes companies less productive but people much happier so in the end its probably good

​@sofianikiforova7790 I take this a step further. Discrimination should be allowed, atleast where private parties are concerned. Obviously, society frowns upon it, but the reverse of the situation is forcing an employer to keep someone hired that they don't want to. Also, Discrimination laws do not in anyway prevent Discrimination, all any employer needs to do is just fire the person, they don't even need to provide a reason, atleast not in an actual free society rather than this nightmare dystopia we live under currently. If they do provide a reason they simply need to say something other than they don't like the person's religion or skin color. Now, when it comes to GOVERNMENT and companies that recieve beneficial status from the government, I absolutely am against Discrimination, but private individuals absolutely have every right to decide who they want to interact with, even if other people consider their reasoning to be rude.

@@Someonedoingnothing put a date on the contract and don't renew it if you cannot hire. Making up bullshit to break a contract in a probably illegal way is not acceptable. I know that a free market and blablabla but workers go on strike for better treatment and they get it. In Europe it's crazy how they got. And they're not less productive even if they have 1.5 months of mandatory vacation, 7h a day and so on

W boss

HR at my company here in the UK also tried to dismiss one of my peers at an old employer of mine, except they filed the wrong discipline charge. They wouldn't back down and tried all sorts of gymnastics ("Oh, well it's POTENTIAL xyz then") and ended up losing, because the senior director running the hearing also noticed it was bunk and refused to support the case. The evidence brought by HR also totally undermined their own position and actually didn't support what they were accusing him of. The senior director was not amused, also because the cost of the HR 'investigation' outweighed the cost of what my peer had allegedly done. Instead of being 'convicted' on that charge and being fired, my peer was duly 'convicted' on a lesser one (i.e. what he should have been charged with in the first place) and got a written warning. Had he been fired on that basis an employment tribunal would have been a stroll in the park and he'd have won a big payout. That company also doesn't provide any support for its serving staff at tribunals. The manager responsible for firing him would have been in the dock by themselves and prosecuted as a private individual. That is a brutal situation to be in and would likely result in selling your home.

And W employee if the boss said such things

You would get your severance package anyway, they aren't going to fire you if you are a good employee just fyi. When people get laid off its a ladder, and you were at the bottom.

@@Chris_t0 You're a delusional moron.

Same, 3+ times now.

@@CTimmerman americans love to do that, it's an american culture the "sarcasm" they love to do it. so if an american is giving you that kinds of feedback you better worry.

Because you're not fired-fired, but a layoff masked as a fireing. If you're actually fired I imagine they would've no issue telling you the reason.

The lie wasn’t the times he was saying that you were doing great. The lie was what he said when they laid you off.

Just don't kill things :)

Supposedly it was average quarter according to CEO though. And as said it was sales, where it's easy to identify - are you costing us more than you are bringing value? And CEO was also hinting that she wasn't very receptive to negative feedback so I do wonder if feedback from the manager was truly that positive. She in fact hadn't made any sales so far, and if there were other hints that she wasn't going to be able to make sales in the future, then what is the justification for letting her stay there? As I don't know the average numbers, I wouldn't know to speculate further.

@@someverycool4552 If they had specific grievances they could have articulated that when she directly asked. CEO suggested a lot of things that meant nothing because all he was doing was muddying the waters by proposing unsubstantiated hypotheticals to manufacture uncertainty.

@@someverycool4552 You know more that the HR person in this call lol

@@someverycool4552 Just so you’re aware… a software sales cycle can take anywhere from 3 months (very quick) to 2+ years depending on the size. If she was selling carpets, I would understand her getting fired that quick. SaaS is a different beast

@@zotaninoron3548Zero sales in that time frame is a grievance. I don't believe for a second that they didn't bring that to her attention. She tried to toss some world salad in there to excuse it but the bottom line is that there is one metric in sales. That matric is sales.

crazy.

Literally the exact situation I find myself in. I'm nominally BOTH the Software Development manager, and the Software Eng lead for our largest and most crucial piece of design/engineering software . The number of times I've pulled my hair out trying to explain to upper management that I can't 100% 2 jobs that DEMAND 100% of your focus. I spin my wheels, barely hitting half time on either facet, and the cycle repeats. Managers absolutely do not exist. I say this as the "Manager" of my team who is expected to also full time a massive piece of highly specialized engineering software as the lead developer.

I work in tech as well-- the project mgmt at my last company was nonexistent.

I work as a sales exec in fortune 500 IT corporation, selling mostly services, software for data centres etc. I have no idea what has happened in the last couple years, but organisational structure of my company has become so centralised that Im in shock how bad the disconnect between people on the market and people making staffing or product decisions has become. It happened to us last year that managers have just been told by worldwide company leadership, you need to let go this amount of people from your team, you have 2 weeks to decide who you fire and why, if not Hr is going to decide for you.

inb4 decades of bashing on middle management being unnecessary by every engineer I've met

Umm no. Collective calibration captures whether individual performance is positively or negatively associated among members of a group. Clearly her performance was crappy, and she was net negative for the team.

Exactly, I would cut that "feelings" bs directly, I don't care about feelings, give me facts, now!

"ive had NO SALES, but GREAT meetings" xDD

HRs are paid by the amount of words they produce, not surprised

@@Nodsaibot well, how much you can do in 4 months? I guess it depends on your target, but some bigger fishes needs some more teasing than just 4 months.

Woman with the feel feel feel

work hard to improve yourself, but do your job only to the standard your contract requires

@@defeqel6537 Actually this proves the point that these businesses are mismanaged. The quality of products are not getting any better and no tech that makes our life better gets release. It's just a money grab. I just hope that these shit companies fire everyone and real competition should come. I am sure there plenty of competent people to take these companies out of the market.

She admitted that she didn't close any contracts... fired herself

100%

It’s not no reason though, it’s because the business environment can’t support the staff they hired when they thought the future would be brighter.

Why? How to argue that you are not less valuable as a person, if someone has directly told you in the face that you are "underperforming"? It's a compelling argument after all, and I don't know how to get out of this ;/

@@mzg147 You are being told you are "underperforming" by somebody who doesn't know you and is just looking at an excel spreadsheet with your name in the red on it based on x arbirtrary number. For sales people it's amount of sales done (which is what was happening to the person in the video, she might have not closed sales or deals but ongoing ones are just as important tbf), programmers have lines of code or amount of files/changes committed, etc, etc... Don't overthink it, just treat it as a sick day and start on finding a new job and or applying for unemployment compensation in the meantime and ASKING them for ANY and ALL documents you have the right to ask them for like relieving letters, last pay, letter of recommendation, severance, compensation for unused vacation, sick time, benefits, continuation of health insurance coverage during the meantime, 401k, back up any important files from work computer while you can, etc. Basically if they ever fire you, make sure HR has a day of headache with you about all the documents you deserve the right to get and compensation, press them until they break and make sure you get everything out of them so you can recover from this and continue onwards.

gettting laid off comes with benefits, She was getting laid off and the company was not being honest about it to avoid paying out those benefits.

Nah I like what she did in this video. Try to get them to lie about the reasons for their decision so you can record it and sue them for wrongful termination. Remember... you can fire people for no reason, but if you lie about the reason its unlawful.

@@explodatedfaces Only in a state that is right to work can you fire for no reason. If this is California, they do not have "right to work"

yes, decision is fixed.

Always. Kpis mean literally nothing. Ime, you need to find away to shift their focus to someone else if you want to keep your job before you get put on a plan. If you do get a plan then that's your sign to start applying elsewhere.

Ah wait, isn't this the standard Amazon PIP (Performance Improvememt Plan) policy thing?

Sounds like a terrible company to work for. I would never agree to a performance plan or review. If the Job is to do X and I get X done, that's all that matters.

@@spankyjeffro5320 the performance plan thing only applies to those who do not do what is required of them. The job requires X and they don't get X done, so they get fired with extra steps.

Software manager here. This just means they stack ranked sales and chopped the bottom 10%. Guess where you are with no sales.

Sounds illegal.. but it looks like U.S.A so I will not waste my breath

THEY TALK TO YOU LIKE A ROBOT

@@madhuguru3130 And unethical, but again, that’s us in the good ol’ USA.

Incorrect. Collective calibration means they assess each individuals performance and how the team performs with that person. People who are a net negative are fired.

the manager didn't say she was meeting expectations. She mentioned she was on a ramp but had zero sales. She knew what her metrics were and how short she was on it. She knew she had zero sales. The manager praised some of her work. This typically happens just before and just after a critique. "You're doing x great. We really need you to focus on y. Btw, love how you handled Z". It is supposed to soften the blow of critique. She knew though because she tried to avoid discussing it all costs. The only metric in sales is sales. period. You pick that up real quick on a sales team. Daily huddles, meetings, one on ones. There's no way she didn't pick up "Sales are our focus". She didn't close. She didn't come close to closing and she mentioned nothing that signaled to me she was working on closing. Sales sucks. She's not cut out for it. That's ok.

THEY FIRING YOU INSTEAD OF LAYING YOU OFF SO YOU DON'T COLLECT UNEMPLOYMENT BUT YOU STILL CAN COLLECT IF YOU WERE UNJUSTLY FIRED COMPANIES MAY DISPUTE UNEMPLOYMENT

@@gnitsaf She was only there for 3 months, with 2 holidays in the middle, and selling a product where the sales cycle can be 6+ months on a single deal, so explain why that means she wasn't cut out for it? Explain how exactly you are supposed to sell a product like Cloudflare to tech departments during Christmas?

@pandepic7078 she was there for 6 according to her LinkedIn. Also Google her job description. She left off this was an executive level 6 figure job and she accomplished none of her action points and lost 3 sales according to her video.

@@gnitsaf >She mentioned she was on a ramp Most of the ramps I've seen from the tech side means that you work under someone else's account as a shadow, and run through the sales process on a select number of other people's accounts, while also learning the product, etc. This is the first time I've ever seen ramp included as a metric in performance evaluations. Since she was an Account Executive, I'm assuming she did not bring in a large client list ahead of time, that is usually a move made when bringing someone in at a higher level, your experienced AEs in that industry that then serve in leadership roles as well. As someone else said, unless their sales cycle is ~30 days (it isn't) the idea that she would have closed accounts over Christmas, where many customers are disconnected or out of office, is ridiculous. Now one thing she mentioned is that she did have a deal not close. I'm gonna assume that was her first account either during or after the ramp process. I'm also gonna assume that this company isn't wholly incompetent, and turning over accounts to new AEs their first day with full responsibility and control. 1 sale falling through out of 1 is not a metric, it is a data point. If she had 3 and all 3 fell through with no obvious extenuating circumstance, then we could talk about her not making sales. But no sales job is 100% close, ever. Taking 1 data point and calling that enough to make a decision on is how a lot of very stupid decisions are made.

It also impacts eligibility for unemployment benefits in most states.

There is no "background check" that shows a reason why you were fired from a job. Matter of fact, if a prospective employer you are interviewing with calls or emails your previous employer to verify employment it is actually ILLEGAL for the previous employer to say anything about why you separated from the company. All they can do is verify your start date and end date. As the other person mentions it can affect unemployment from the state. But getting fired for "performance" reasons isn't a valid reason to not pay you benefits. The only thing that will really affect your ability to collect unemployment is if you were fired for not following a company policy or breaking a written policy etc.

@@red5standingby419yeah I always people say that and it’s not true. You can only be denied unemployment if you committed gross misconduct for termination, like theft, etc. I always wonder if it’s just bots for big companies that want to keep people from filing.

@@arachnid4910 Hey genius, that's what I said means. Breaking a written company policy such as those in the employee handbook will be things like don't steal shit from the company or coworkers. Don't do this or do that. You sign these things when you are hired. And if for instance they have an email of you saying something that breaks a written policy, they can provide that email and their written policy that has your signature on it and you will not qualify for unemployment. Things that will NOT be in the company handbook that you sign will be things like "you will perform to these metrics" and therefore wouldn't disqualify you for unemployment benefits. Pretty straight forward.

@@red5standingby419 I wasn’t referring to you, I was agreeing with you.. read the room, pal.

Anywhere in the world where that is not illegal and is not eligible for harsh judicial judgments is a place where things are not right and the system needs to be reseted by the people.

Lol same thing happened to me in November 2022. They didn't want any disgruntled ex-employees to leak information and thus cut off all access before sending an email quite a bit later.

So like... She wasn't performing great. She gives a ton of metrics that aren't conversions. That's the issue. Contact on accounts that don't lead to conversions don't matter at all. She WAS under performing by her own admission. She just dressed it up.

​@@chrisdaman4179 They didn't provide any data either

@@neociber24 they don't actually have to. It really is not that complicated. She knew she didn't meet metrics. She knew this was coming. That's why the camera was on before the call started.

Dismissals are distinct from layoffs in the eyes of the law. There's certain extra steps you need to go through to lay people off. Between that and the bad optics, there seems to be too much of an incentive to disguise layoffs in the form of mass dismissals due to flimsy performance metrics.

in “at will” states i don’t think they really have to give a reason, i live in one & my friend got fired for “not meeting company standards” & dude worked just as hard as everyone else lol management just really didn’t care for him & we were pretty overstaffed….. im just so happy afterwards 4 people quit & now we are understaffed again 😎

Yep, I've been there. A project put me in front of a firing squad because I hadn't done something. I hadn't done it because other people in the project also hadn't done stuff, which meant I was blocked. I'd asked them to do it, they didn't, somehow that's my fault.

That’s why the chat going on about working hard pissed me off. If you work hard in a company, your manager takes all the credit and you get nothing except more work. If something goes wrong, you take the fall. That’s how this works.

And get Blacklisted. Not right.

It's entirely possible her manager had no idea this was coming. They could have been totally honest with her in that they thought her performance was great, then the algorithm decided she was on the chopping block.

What? That makes zero sense, management has all of the power in a company why would they replace their own jobs... You clearly know nothing about the real world holy shit.

We give her too much credit. Have to consider it's an on camera performance.

​@@trappedcat3615 might be, might not be. your optimising without a profiler ;)

@@JoRyGu I think this is exactly what happened according to her later edited video, manager had no clue, all of this was a sudden decision from the higher ups

so he got what he wanted XD "proved him wrong", he couldn't give two shits about that, as long as you quit on your own.

@@yiin he got what he wanted not what he needed... worst thing you can do some people is give them what they asked for not what they actually wanted... What he wanted was better workers what he actually got was fewer good workers... good job 👍

@@yiin shhh

@@Fuxy22 the bullshit numbers implied from the start that performance was never an issue, just an excuse to fire for some other reason. We don't know what other reason bullshit or not his company might have had, but that doesn't deny the fact, that quitting your job in that situation only helped the boss. If you want to stick it to them, there are better ways to do that than to succumb to their demands.

Isn't that like constructive dismissal?

She was hired as a sales person. She sold nothing in all the time she was there. Why would they say it isn't her fault? She sold nothing. There's one metric in sales. Sales. You are always closing or you're making excuses. She closed nothing. There was nothing she brought up to signal that she was trying to close, that she generated leads, that she contributed to the business whatsoever. Why would you recommend someone who did nothing of what they were hired to do? Why would you offer 6 months salary when they did nothing? She admitted it. She knew why. She danced around it and didn't want to touch that at all. But there it is. She had zero sales. Everything else, around that, doesn't matter, zero sales.

@@gnitsaf You've posted this to every single comment. We get it, you're the bestest little doggo, I put on the big man uniform and tell you to jump and you'll fucking soar then lick my hand while you whimper. Good boy, if only everyone were this enthusiastic about making other people rich.

​@gnitsaf go ahead and bootlick harder borther

@@gnitsafdid you expect her to sell anything over Christmas? It’s pretty clear they were just hiding a layoff and making up bs. And guess what: cloudflare doesn’t need you to defend them. They are a very wealthy company who is doing very well for themselves. They’ll be just fine without you. Why don’t you try taking the side of the workers instead of the company for once

shut up Simp, no one is going to care about her little temper tantrum. They will still gladly work for this company.

I lived above a guy who assaulted a friend of mine (I say lived because the guy died). Debts, an apartment I leased for 12 months. If I was fired 3 months later, I'd call that pretty f****** traumatic. I get Prime's point that being fired isn't traumatic, but it's lacking that nuanced context of "the act itself isn't very traumatic, but the situation you're in becoming a nightmare 'because' you were fired can be VERY traumatic."

If her performance is bad, why not.

@@Handlebrake2 Her performance must have been incredible if she got her whole team axed.

​@@Zilharr Damn her bad performance has Area of Effect

@@Handlebrake2 Was it shrapnel that took out her manager?

and get fired directly instead.

This. I love being able to call my CEO directly and be like "hey, machine X is broken again, can you come down and fix it?" or "Hey I'm taking next friday off, that cool w/u?" It's something else to have an employer you can go directly to, and who spends all of his time working on the floor with everybody else, unless he's in the office doing necessary paperwork

@@billythao8669 This, but unironically

Like 1970s Britain where apparently all you needed was to roll in off the street, ask to see the "manager" or "owner", greet him with a firm handshake and he'll hire you to start tomorrow. Just go back to your old job and resign.

Sounds like a communication issue. You didn't communicate to those tracking the issues how long it would take to fix the issue.

@@evancombs5159 If the issue is a massive rewrite then it's definitely the fault of people who were surprised at the end of 3 weeks instead of tracking it... you know doing their job?

@@evancombs5159 I did. Every day in standup.

Sorry to break it to you, but they've been wanting to fire you for a long time. They intentionally gave you an issue that they knew you'd need help on.

@@alienrenders and with proof you can sue them for it

Corretto

It sucks when you get shit on based on either miscommunication or lack of communication. While it is technically on you to communicate what you are doing and problems you are having. At the end of the day, the entire role of manager is that. The role of the manager is to get status and communicate between their reports and the person they report. I understand that shit managers would rather throw you or the people under them under the bus to save their ass. It is easier to forget what you have done for the sake of giving reason to letting you go. The better ones will do that communication. This is why if you aren't having a one on one every week or two and quarterly evaluations then you are fucked. The worst place I worked at, basically copied and pasted the last evaluation and the bosses boss came in and told me, "you need to promise to improve to not do these things." I had already been doing them. Over half of the items I "need to improve" I was already doing and if they were doing their job then they would have realized that. What I realized was that the company had no intention of doing their job or having a conversation. Not only would the next evaluation be just as bad, it would likely be worse.

@@JacobSantosDev Oh, they knew what I was doing. I just wasn't aware the project I'm working on isn't included in the metrics the higher up management sees.

@@cprn. Sigh. That is even worse. I feel for you. They did you a favor and hopefully you are working at a more competent company.

Same experience on a mid sized company, missed 1 day because I was sick and got fired by the algorithm. I finally figured out why people were showing up to work sick as fuck.. such a stupid way to lose a job

his review was honest at least. sucks about the cold and sucks he couldn't determine your work quality. but I don't blame the company on this one necessarily. just bad timing.

you had 1:1's twice a week? yow!

I just made same post. Ive been on both sides, otherwise id not know about ins cost.

This is not the way. Now, who would want to hire her after she secretly recorded other employees and posted it online?

I think THIS is the ultimate goal of Cloudflare. Get rid of overhired staff without paying severance.

Exactly. Screwing people over because they over hired.

It just comes off as trying to pretend the layoff is a fire to avoid paying out those benefits.

Yep. Happened twice in 26 years. I learned the second time. "Oh. I am fired/laid off/whatever buzzword. Ok. Now we are on my time. IDGAF why. I want to know what you are offering me on the way out. And to end this call. " I don't dismiss this lady's right to defend herself. Other than the video it is talking to a brick wall.

“We’ll get back to you”. They don’t.

@@njspencer79 Play the same game as her, destroy them and then ask for a better package on my way out

@@TheShibangelist Nah. I value the long-term. That sort of thing esp. in the internet age has a way of coming back to bite you.

Does that really need to be spelled out. We already see her recording it. Imagine the backlash if the HR really spelled that out. "Stars didnt align, you are fired". Cloudflare shares would drop so hard even if the HR in call might get some pats for being realistic lol. She asked once - she didn't get a reply. Twice - still didnt get answer. Do you really have to rub it in their faces telling "You are firing me and you dont even know why". I dont think those HRs are having fun there. No need to prolong the call anymore than it needs to be. Just listen to the procedure, get on with life, start a new job search. Everyone feels the pain, but nobody can help in that situation besides ourselves.

​@@ark_knight If the company isn't doing well the shareholders need to know. Why shouldn't the shares fall? Corporate speak like this affects actual job functions too. There's goal misalignment sometimes because the organization's real objectives aren't shared with employees. Cutting the bullshit would be better for everyone.

@@ark_knightLol, they're not hiding how they're doing from shareholders. They're legally obligated to report on their financial situation quarterly.

@@ark_knight that's what they effectively said anyway just with more bs... I would have respected them more if they said it was a decision from above based on internal metrics they cannot disclose but promise to give a good reference no matter the reason. Just be vague if you can't be honest but don't bs them by saying it's their fault when it's clearly not. That is just disrespectful and may lead them to believe you won't give a good reference for their work.

@@travissmith2127 not an ideal world. What can we do about it?

bingo....

It was wrong for her direct to not give her better feedback. But she makes it worse for everybody becuase, now if you can't fire people, then employers will raise their hiring standards and make it harder to get a job

​@@Jabberwockybirdbad take imho. The companies need workers no matter what. They determine their hiring standards based on that.

It's cringe. HR doesn't make the decisions and they're not allowed to give details. She was just throwing a tantrum for internet likes.

​@@HyperionStudiosDE Yeah after all, she has a lot of free time from now on

@@Jabberwockybird Companies only hire workers they need. If this happens, it will go on only for as long as they can find replacements. If they find their new standards just don't match the workforce, they will lower them again. The company cannot operate without people.

No only enterprise deals take that long, she was in Mid-market that's usually 30-90 days. She also worked at cloudflare which is a massive househould name with a lot of inbound and she couldn't close anything for the 6 months she worked there.

@@Nemixx Closing in the first 30-90 days is still an unrealistic expectation for a brand new hire on her ramp. Is it possible? Yes. But not the norm by any means especially in this economy. She had maybe 4 months when you take into account the holidays

@@fightsportspace7327 No it isn't lol, Especially if you work for a company like Cloudflare where 90% of your leads are inbounds. If you couldn't close even a SMB deal the entire 6 months you were you're ass

she still got fired tho 🤷‍♀️ ig the other new hires did better

But isn't a carpet cycle even longer? I mean, carpets tend to last far longer than 2 years. It seems like an odd thing to compare it to.

Yeah I thought his reaction here was pretty sus, too.

Not to mention in America, your health insurance is heavily tied to your job. The thought of getting sick or having a medical emergency is anxiety inducing and COBRA is ridiculously expensive.

I think it’s hard, but in my dictionary “trauma” has a much heavier connotation. It’s hard for me to believe that your whole life is going to be ruined by being fired, you gotta have some faith.

He has some takes that he thinks are "hard truths" but are awful takes.

yeah an embarrassing take. Getting fired and being unemployed in America is a brutal experience. The stress and chaos of it affects you for a long ass time, especially if you have people that rely on you. My great recession experience still fucks with me to this day.

Get out of SF while you still can. Find somewhere safe where there is a community who will help.

Prime is extremely America > Europe, so hopefully he doesn't see this lol

@@majestictrain That sounds like all the more reason for him to do see it.

@@trappedcat3615where ?

When I got laid off in the US I got like 2 months of pay. The differences between the US and Europe are not big, people just focus on the high profile bad companies and compare them to the good companies they worked for.

It is the inevitable consequences of making people's co-workers their competition. You incentivizes sabotage and advantages the most unscrupulous and conniving actors. Look up "Super-chicken model" for how this plays out in research.

First 2 year, the 10% need to be fired at Jacks GE. The next 2 years both the top 10% and the bottom 10% leave at mid year. Another 20% of the KPI average, just retire, because "GE is not the same company". The Top 10% because the KPIs become poltical bullshit, and the bottom 10% have GE on the resume, and there are a ton of easier places to navigate beyond thunderdome. Now jacks minons have a successful program that degrades the company for the next 10 years to plants that cannot keep producing lightbulbs. It got to the point there no HR targets that are not the middle of the workforce, the ones who build the products in factories where an engineer replacement cannot be hired in the early internet age. The talent went someplace else, except for the medical division the workforce was shrinking fast. I walked in just about the day Jack walked out as a contractor to keep the IT lights on.... it was dysfunctional. GE saw people hired to run plants and production lines out of business school who could not understand why they had to be involved in logistics, like the front and back of the production line were not critical. GE had people producing products they did not understand despite GE holding the patents on the products. GE had a workforce, spending time playing KPI games, instead of ruthlessly driving products better and sometimes cheaper. 4 years later, we were loosing factory data centers because the roofs were collapsing in, because nobody cared to clean out the drains on the roof, 10% included the staff of the building who kept the lights on. It was all used by the post Jack manangment team to send the jobs to overseas, they had KPIs the decened because they were locked down and no longer puffed up. It gave the board the excuse not to invest in the current factories, cheaper to build new in mexico and move on. The US workforce could not do anything. Yes the US workforce performed to about the same level as 1985 in 1995 and in 2005.... the manangment on the other hand wrecked the circus given to the board members every quarter.

That would be the difference between leadership and management.

Quit and not be able to pay your own bills?

@@brandih9802 yes

@@brandih9802 being constantly micromanaged and circumvent my role. Also, at least in my country I am legally responsible for my employees. So, there is a whole bunch of serious problems which would be far better to just leave.

you prefer them to say good riddance?

they offshore even more jobs to india.

@@bigbarry8343they will have fun with top tier communication and programming skills!

I got right-sized a year ago. So shitty lol

They are removing cruft. And it warms my heart.

Those dont matter either. Relationships are all that matter. Look at kathleen kennedy. She has lost disney billions and driven multiple franchises into the ground. The willow tv show was such a disaster that disney removed it from streaming and took it as a tax write off. She is a complete disaster and yet remains untouched. We all have worked for stupid bosses. Its not about results.

All these comments are cultural in your area. Here in most western European countries the employees have so much rights that it's almost impossible to fire someone for no reason. This is why they try to bully you out here, because they legit can't fire you. Having said that, here, the intentions and how hard you work do count. But you can easily manipulate that by acting like you've been working hard in the wrong direction.

If you really believe that, you're either a nepo hire or you've never worked a day in your life, and you typed that from your mom's basement.

Valid point.

If she thinks working hard should be the measure, then how can you trust what else she's saying. Working hard is just a length of the vector. The vector itself must be in the right direction as well, which is actually much more important. If a sales person thinks that working hard is the true measure, then how can I trust her to make deals that are actually valuable for both sides? Maybe she thinks the harder she works for the customer the more likely the customer should accept the deal. No it's about having numbers make sense so that a deal is favourable to both parties. It's simple math - Company B pays us $1,000,000 which will bring them $1,500,000 value and for us it costs $500,000 to produce, it's an easy and fair deal. Going to lock that in. Both companies get $500k value out of that. It's also not about how young someone is. It's lower than high school level math to understand that companies exist to make money, if you are a sales person you need to identify in which way you can make money for both companies who you are striking a deal between and then use your charisma as formality to make the deal happen. I didn't see any of that from her. Sure she's in a tough position, but is she going to react the same way when she's trying to strike deal between companies and the company she's selling their product to doesn't want it? And what were the "great meetings" she was referring to? "I have had so many great meetings, we had so much fun" - but no deals. None of this is personal. You can't be a sales person and have attitude like she had there. You could choose any other role, but sales in particular is something where you have to be constantly thinking of how to make a deal and how to make it work.

Working hard does mean success, in the long run. It does not mean every step is successful. Some stuff is timing. Like here, if they needed to cut staff, and she hasn't closed any deals (even if she was great and no one could have closed any in those circumstances) then she is a reasonable choice, regardless of how "hard she worked".

@@thekwoka4707 No, it absolutely does not mean. You need the correct direction. If you have bad direction it means that working hard might mean failing harder, or generally being counter productive. I never say or show "Look how I hard I worked (except to my partner where the relationship dynamic is different than with a company)". I always speak of results. My action of X yielded in N returns. In actuality, the less time spent on an action that yielded best returns the more impressive it is. If I spend 2 days to make $500,000, that is way better than tirelessly working for 365 days to make the $500,000. Or even worse, you could be tirelessly work for 2 years and cost the company $500,000 and not bring in any value. It's simple to show that, that you could be doing useless work and or even illegal work to put your company or your own life at risk. You could be working hard all the while doing that.

HR's response, while a mix of buzz words, is the direct result of businesses getting sued from sue happy people. So they mitigate that risk by providing the reason as they did. She knew why. zero sales in a quarter? She knew this was coming.

Working hard is for losers. I'm lazy by nature and would rather find quicker and easier ways to do my tasks than sweating it at 5pm on a Friday.

Agreed. I've seen the way some of the execs in my company sell stuff to customers. It's not easy. It's not for me, thats for sure haha.