Bach: St. Matthew Passion. Pears, Fischer-Dieskau, Schwarzkopf, Ludwig, Gedda, Berry, Philharmonia Orchestra and Chorus, Otto Klemperer (cond.) EMI (Warner)
Dave, I love your channel and I regularly agree with you. But for this work I thought Richter would be the RR. I lived in Germany for ten years and I have seen the Richter versions (on LPs or CDs) everywhere, and rarely Klemperer. The same goes for the other Bach messes ans passions. Richter seems to have been the reference conductor in Germany (before the HIP) for those works. What do you think?
Can't resist adding this classic story about Klemperer and his recording of Bach's St. Matthew Passion, as told by Daniel Barenboim, who had heard it from people at the recording sessions: Klemperer and the great baritone Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau, whom Klemperer often needled by abbreviating his name to "Herr Fieskau," could not agree about how one of the major arias should go. Neither one would give way. So they kept putting off recording it, knowing that the whole work was going to require many recording sessions anyway. But one day Fischer-Dieskau came to the session and said, "Doctor Klemperer! Last night God came to me in a dream. He said my way with the aria is the right way!" Klemperer did not react at all. Nothing. Not a word, not even a look. Silence. The next day Klemperer walked into the session, said good morning to everyone, then suddenly added: "Herr Fieskau! Last night, God came to me in a dream. He said he's never heard of you!”
I love the story of Dieskau inviting Klemperer to hear him conducting some concert and Klemperer excused himself saying: “I’ll be busy singing Schwanengesang“…
Yes, well said. It is a very special recording. One of the advtanges of the slower tempi for me is the clarity it brings to the counterpoint. This is especially true in the big chorales. The entry of the children's choir in the first chorale is simultaneously so huge and so clear. It's this simultaneous enormity and transparency that I find so endearing in Klemperer. When I commented 'too slow for most people' on the last video, I was thinking about the people in my vicinity: Deutsch Bach-nuts in Berlin, for whom Jochum and Herreweghe seem to be the names that come up most. It's nice to know that a reference doesn't have to be somehow prototypical. Maybe Richter's slow late Schubert sonatas will find a place. And Gould's Goldberg - the apex of 'idiosyncratic' reference - must come along soon.
I would say absolutely for both of those. The Bach I wasn't so sure about despite the Wilhelm Pitz trained chorus and fabulous soloists. I looked up a few reviews and notices, and it really was either Klemperer or the 1958 Richter. My first Matt was Woldike on Vanguard but my first full price was Klemperer, all 5 lps. I was dubious at first because of the tempi. Even the 1937 RCA 78rpm live Koussevitzky, which was in three volumes taking about 9 inches of shelf space, is faster. But the Klemperer grew on me. Like Parsifal grew on me. Though my favorite modern instrument version is Solti/CSO/Decca. I do think Klemperer's isn't a reference nowadays, A.D. 2024. It's an outlier. But it's still special. P.S. Klemperer's tempi in both the Missa and German Requiem are by no means especially slow.
Ich habe Klemperer‘s among ten other versions on vinyl - just great! Since I was 15 years old, I always hear it in the morning of Karfreitag (Good Friday?). 8‘m 70 now. Take care and happy Easter. 👍🎶🎶🇩🇪
I have the Brahms. It is quite slow, but I particularly remember the second "All flesh is grass" movement that has a wonderful impressiveness due to this that I have never heard matched. Like Dave's comment about the "grandeur" and "gripping, emotionally intense" nature of the Bach.
Regardless of how one feels about Klemperer, one hundred years from now people will still be listening to this recording. If that isn't a "Reference" nothing else is.
If massive paperback compilations by Gramophone and Penguin are anything to go by, the period-instrument ‘reference equivalent’ seems to be Gardiner/English Baroque Soloists on Archiv.
Another thing about Klemperer's "slowness": he still manages multiple occasions of real drama throughout the recording. You can't do that if your interpretation is "too slow."
This definitely needs to be listened to sometime. Bach is one of my favorite composers, but I have to admit that, apart from individual arias and chorales, the St. Matthew Passion has perhaps been one of Bach's masterpieces that has been the most difficult for me to appreciate fully. That's why I haven't listened to many different recordings of the St. Matthew Passion, as I don't listen to it very often in general. However, Klemperer's recording of the Mass in B minor is, in my opinion, the best of all time, so I am generally keen on listening to his Bach recordings. (In terms of the best period-instrument performance of the B minor Mass, I think it's the recording conducted by Masaaki Suzuki.)
I love Klemperer in general. However my favorite St. Matthew Passion is the Gabrieli Consort version, that is what I listen to every Easter, and will be listening to this week.
It’s not about what tempo, it’s whether or not the tension and momentum carries and to my ear, the only chorus where the momentum dies is O Mensch Bewein at the end of Part 1. Other than that, this is absolutely 100% required listening for anyone who cares about this piece. The soloists are absolutely better than every soloist on the period instrument recordings, it’s absolutely glorious and one of the most special recordings of Bach that anyone ever made.
I understand why this iis considered a reference recording. I would go further and label it an historical recording. I don't mind the slow tempos as much as the heavy rhythmic tread. If the HIP movement has taught us anything of value, it's that, even in solemn sacred music, Bach's rhythms (deriving from dance forms, more often than not) must be lifted. This afternoon I was listening to the Kleiber recording of Mozart's Figaro and it dawned on me that this is probably the reference recording for that work, given the classic Vienna Mozart cast and the dynamism of the conducting.
There's something about the very sonority of Klemperer's recording that immediately sets it apart from all the others. I have no idea how to define it, but if I had to, it would probably require me to refer to colors and tastes (yes, I admit to having some synesthetic issues...). But beyond that, this particular performance always sounds to me "ancient" or "biblical" - it makes me feel I'm roaming the streets of the Jerusalem of Christ's era. Being an Israeli, I do have some idea what that might have felt like, not to mention going down the Via Dolorosa and ending in a complete tour of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, which I did several times. Considering the notion of a "Reference" recording, I personally prefer using the term "Classic" instead - "Classic" in this context meaning a recording of overall high quality that became a classic for critics, listeners and musicians. "Reference" resonates in my mind as "definitive". My bad, of course :)
Of course it has to be the Klemperer. A cast the likes of which we cannot even imagine today, the Philharmonia Orchestra and chorus at their finest (and it doesn’t get any finer) and the grand master of the Austro-Germanic repertoire conducting. Unbeatable.
Whenever I listen to Klemp's SMP, the tempo always takes some adjusting to. Once I've acclimatised, however, it's a fabulous listen. Oddly enough, I was listening a 1970s recording of the Fireworks Music the other day, conducted by - of all people - Boulez. The slow speed bugged me at first, but I soon got used to it, and quite enjoyed the performance on its own terms.
Out of fashion today, but I agree with you. Another captivating Bach performance is Wolfgang Rubsam's version of the 48 on Brilliant, NOT a reference recording, but stunning on it's own terms, all five CDs of it.
Quick question: Does a composer choose a time signature for a specific effect? For example did Tchaikovsky select 5/4 for the second movement of his 6th symphony to create a weird waltz or did he come up with the melody first and then realized it had to be in 5/4?
Classical music (Romantic in particular) seems to be rhythmically 4-square. At some point I'd like to see you do a talk on the rhythmic poverty of western music...well add it to the list of "to-do's".@@DavesClassicalGuide
I think that when a composer chooses 6/4 he's definitely exploiting it for its possibilities of playing off of duple and triple time. Tchaikovsky's 5/4 waltz might suggest something wrong, off kilter. To me it sounds like shortness of breath or a lame effect.
@@TheChongil That's a very interesting point, though I feel that Western classical music isn't so much rhythmically poor as it deprioritises rhythm in favour of other aspects, like melody, harmony and texture
It’s better than the original transfer to digital in the late 80’s/early 90’s, but the great recordings of the century remastering 20ish years ago put it in what I always thought was pristine sound.
From what Dave has said, and some of his comments here, it seems that the choice of a reference recording has quite a bit to do with the marketing by the record company that published it. A well marketed release by an internationally distributed company would be the one that would imprint on the most people -- I imprinted on Karajan's version of the Brahms German Requiem when I was 16. What did it know! I would be interested to hear what Dave thinks the best recording actually was back in the day when the consensus for each reference was being decided. It sounds like in this case it would be Jochum. (and I totally agree about Herreweghe.)
As someone who absolutely and totally prefers 'historical' performances of the St Matthew, I have to admit that Klemperer only comes third for me even among the 'traditional' performances. My favourite among those is Jochum (he's also my favourite 'traditional' conductor in the B-minor Mass), followed by Richter's first recording, and only then comes Klemperer. That said, I recognise the historical fact that Klemperer's recording of the St Matthew is more celebrated and has greater name recognition than either the Jochum or the Richter; in fact, in the name-recognition category (for the Passion specifically, not talking about overall name-recognition), Jochum is probably well below both Richter recordings, not to mention Klemperer's. It's a recording that somehow 'flew under the radar' and didn't get the attention that I, personally, believe it deserves. In the Mass, BTW, Klemperer is my second-favorite 'traditional' performance, straight after Jochum, and Richter comes way down the line -- I find much of his Mass intolerable (and no, this is not my general feeling towards Richter's Bach, a lot of it is glorious, but *not* his Mass)
I agree with you about the Jochum. The problem was that when it was issued Philips was still a local, or at least regional, label, and by the time it had the sort of international reach it deserved Jochum's version was supplanted by many other, more recent ones. That, and the fact that Jochum didn't have the name-recognition of so many other German conductors, especially in the area of Bach performance.
Interesting to hear about the research suggesting slower tempos in Bach’s time. Something that’s always bothered me about the period performance movement is how professional, specialized and mannered the interpretations seem. And this conflicts with my experience as a church musician-which Bach of course was too. Sunday services are often thrown together with little rehearsal by predominantly amateur musicians and singers, why should it have been different in Bach’s time? And anyway, who are we playing this music for today, the audience who is here now listening, or the long dead people of Bach’s time? It’s not like they are going to rise from the grave with a scowl and say “you’re performing that too slow, too legato, too much vibrato, try shorter phrases, no crescendo,” etc.
Well ok, and I’m not trying to critique people’s tastes. But if you played the partitas that slowly perhaps it would feel that whatever detail you can hear is at the expense of the overall meaning. I’m thinking of Rosalyn Tureck here, who was so lauded ages ago - I mean, really, you could not take her as a reference in the keyboard music today it’s just so s l o w…. By the way this does not mean I think Bach should be played super fast and zippy either @@mancal5829
But even in 1962 via OK's conception it did sound like the oratorio Brahms never wrote. Important as it may be, historically, I've tried for fifty years (and failed) to sit through this recording. The great Mahler 2 from the same period makes a way better monument to Klemp and these forces.
Hmm well you define it! As I recall this is the word from the penguin guide back in the day. I’m from the north of Scotland so I’m familiar with granite bu5 I don’t know what it is supposed to bring to the SMP@@Warp75
Dave, is Klemperer not too idiosyncratic to be a reference? And why is Peter Schreier with the Staatskapelle Dresden not the reference recording? Thank you.
Klemperer's recording is beautiful, but my problem is that Klemperer treats Bach as a romantic grandiose composer, somebody like Wagner or Verdi. It has nothing to do with the devoutness associated with the protestant church of Bach but with the dramatic ecstatic spirituality of the catholic Messiaen.
I'm one of those who find the Klemperer "perfectly fine." I love this recording! I'm so tired of hearing the period instrument people making the opening chorus sound like a gigue.
tempo, and the impression of "too slow" are such a subjective, emotional and transitional thing. I would argue that we all could get used to much slower tempi in pretty much any kind of repertoire. I´m waiting for a great conductor who can pull it of.
I love this performance. But then, i like my Bach 'fat'. And why does the HIP crowd think that everyone before the 19th century was in such a big hurry??
I can follow those who raises the question as to whether this really can be considered the (or a) reference recording of the work? The question, though, is absolutely futile: Klemperer's St.Matthew Passion is a monument, a GOTHIC CATHEDRAL erected for THE GREATER GLORY OF GOD! AMEN!
I hoped you would choose this one. That it is far from my favourite does not matter. The point is that it is the reference. My favourite [in slightly less good sound] is Mogens Woldike with the company of the Vienna State Opera, and Uno Ebrelius as Evangelist. It has the same grandeur as Klemperer and is just as well played, and is virtually unknown even now. So it cannot be THE Reference. My favourite HIP performance is Gustav Leonhardt on DHM, but the one male Alto would rule it out for many. It is on the grand scale regarding tempo, but occasionally lacking sheer weight that is implied in the score such as the "Storm" and "The Wrending of the Temple Veil." I was brought up as Lutheran Christian, but am lapsed, but can totally get Bach's absolute conviction in his setting of this heart rending religious tale. It really is Old Testament in its implications for examining of human nature, and shows the modern malaise is millennia old in reality. If God exists, then Bach was his musical messenger. If God does not exist, then Bach was still the best sort of human, a shown in his art. Thanks and best wishes from George
Well listen to Karl Richter then. Whether the Klemperer recording of this is either a reference or the best has nothing to do with period instruments, sorry
@@murraylow4523 I was making a general remark, not just about the SMP. I have the Richter, Harnoncourt(both), Herrewegge, Jochum, Mengleburg but always go back to Klemperer
