Check out this video of Clint spinning his glider during a SAT. Notice how his glider didnt frontal after the surge. His glider behaved just like the reflex glider in this video. If he would have been on a classic glider, theres a huge possibility that he could have fallen into the lines after the glider took a frontal collapse. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-yMOkvVP5B_k.html
Nice video... Question: How did Clint have the Universal trims set during the SAT? Assuming he was trimmed in to zero, the reflex characteristics would not have been active to prevent a frontal...no?
@@MitchG Nice video, u can see no input to stop the wing from over shooting, maybe he was grabbing the risers in the 180 riser twist, need onboard video tho. If he neglected to check the surge he was pushing past his skill level. This is what killed Grant, he couldn't stop the over shoot and fell into the wing, he was flying a Roadster/reflex(not EN certified) wing which didn't save him in a over shot situation in active air. SIV course and good aggressive kiting skills will help in understanding wing management. Dealing with strong thermals helps also.
Thank you for making a video that shows such a great example of what a reflex wing does best. I am about to get into PPG when I can save up enough, and videos like this are so helpful. Look forward to flying with you one day.
Great video! Some people need to see things in action to understand what's going on and you did a great job showing this. Oh and it's amazing you can get that warp over your head ... since its unlauchable ;)
Been thinking a lot about the reflex vs. Non reflex. Great demo and explanation. My next wing will definitely be a reflex wing. Already got her picked out (just gotta find $3200 laying around) 😄
I would like to point out a slightly different perspective. Non reflex wings are designed to be able to easily collapse and recover. This is very convenient because you may hit a micro burst and that wing will collapse and if it is a good EN-A or EN-B wing, it will quickly and fairly gently reinflate. I have seen this a few times with my buddies flying where about 50% of their wing has taken a collapse, but it was a good wing and they know how to load it so it has always gently popped up before they loose more than one or two few feet of elevation. The reflex on the other hand may not collapse and the micro burst will be like hitting a brick wall. As previously mentioned, a collapse is a less likely on a reflex, but once you do collapse the wing it tends to open up a lot more violently than a non reflex. For these reasons I will only fly EN-A wings close to the ground and I personally prefer not to fly reflex. I do believe reflex wings are a great choice for many people, but at this time it's not for me.
You are correct. IMO I prefer to have a reflex when flying low so if I fly through some wake vortex or unexpected turbulence I dont take a collapse and crash into the ground. I have seen classic PG wings take frontals just from flying through their own wake. Any wing will lose altitude while recovering from collapse no matter if its A rated wing or not. When Im flying 3 ft off the ground I want a collapse resistant wing especially when flying on speed bar which I am 50% of the time
I find myself in what you say. I have 3years of pg, an 26m EN-A Nova Prion5 wing that is also certificated for ppg. I fly it also with a paramotor. I like the fact that i know is safe, the safest passive wing. I had a front colapse during free flight with it, 50% loading, and besides the fact that it reopened by it's own in 2-3sec, I couldn't see home on the flight track any altitude drop, maybe one metter os soo. From that point of view and the fact that it has much lift as a pg wing I wouldn't trade it for nothing. But I woukd sure like it to be more stable... I have mountains all arround at several km away, and on some ppg flights with it all I do is corect it, mostly if it is some wind, not much. It lateraly oscilates almost continously. Not so much when is very light or no wind. My last three ppg flights were not that relaxing because they were made right before suset and I think that's when the cathabatic down the mountains cold winds are starting. And the air looked smoth on the ground but not very smoth up. It moves permanently, that's no way of flying, all I doo is look at it, think what side to pull for stoping the lateral oscilations and after a few seconds is there again. And no one not even the producer could tell me why. I don't know if it's a genetal thing with pg EN A wings when flown with ppg ir just this brand or just my wing. If it wasn't for the lateral oscilations, the safety of it would be enough for me to not think of annything else like more speed or what others look for.. I'll retrim it and see.
Wow,the leading edge on that warp looks solid even lightly loaded. I noticed my semi roadster 3 wont even collapse if it over flys me on the ground,it actually starts to dive fully inflated lol. Nice demo bro!!
This is an awesome video man thanks for sharing that. If it's possible you should try to do the same video in flight 👍 either way definitely an informative video good job
Very good video. What about semi-reflex wing ? And it would of be interesting to see what happen if you apply brakes when the wrap is in front of you, even if it's not loaded as a normal in flight situation.
Mitch, as always, thanks for you great in-depth analysis. I'm a new PPG pilot and can see myself slowly progressing into more speedbar low-level flying vs. acro. Would you recommend a reflex profile or non-reflex profile wing? Thanks
Could you fly a drone next to next to the two wings either in flight or kiting and see if the reflex profile is significant enough to be seen on video?
correct me if I am wrong but this doesn't count for paramotors reflex wings, cause as I saw when the motor is off your wing is over head and it doesn't collapse? disclaimer: i am noob here so i need answers not juding
Mitch, We have to compare notes. As you may know, I started on the Macpara Charger. Regardless of my feelings about the wing’s excessive inherent stability, there is some direction in the manual that allows you to fly it as a free flight wing and I have done so. I cannot offer any aerodynamic justification for why it must to be flown with the trimmers hauled all the way in. Can you? In fact the loops at the end of the trimmer pulls, are supposed to be clipped onto the carabiners, so that no release of trim can possibly occur. Trims in, for free flight ...it behaves more like a traditional paraglider. Maybe addition of an engine and thrust beneath the wing? But I just can’t wrap my head around why it should be any different as a free flight glider than as a powered glider... aerodynamically speaking.
I think they say that for 2 reasons. 1. That's the most efficient trim setting performance wise. 2. Thats the most safe, collapse recovery wise. As you know pulling brakes deforms the reflex profile but you need to turn in thermals and apply brakes much more often in ff. So if you were trimmed out and pulling brakes that increases the chance of collapse drastically. Also, if you do take a collapse and get a large cravatte or stall the glider for some other reason, stalling the glider with trims out could be dangerous from the violent recovery surge.
Which wing was the reflex and which one was non-reflex? I'm new and still learning and the video kept switching back and forth, so when you were explaining how it works, I didn't really understand if you were talking about a reflex wing or the non reflex wing.
I've never heard of this. I only fly ozone. And flew a swift 2 , now I fly Alpina 2. These wings are fast. And never let your wing pass up over your head. No matter what your flying.
Very nice video! I like the demonstration and I`shure the reflex is much more resistant to collapses. Once you have a collapse, how is the recovery comparison traditional and reflex? It would be very interesting to get a demonstration for it as well.
That depends on the glider, trim position, and wing loading. If you are on something like a dudek universal with the trims in and within the weight range then the glider recovers exactly the same as a classic wing. Check my channel for collapse test on the universal
@@MitchG What do you mean it depends on the glider? LOL your posting a video about the Warp! what does the Universal got to do with this? of course your to chicken to demonstrate a collapse with your Warp because you know it won’t end well! Let see some collapses in all trim positions with your Warp and let everyone know how good it recovers.
@@BlackDevill9 I've got nothing to prove to you buddy. If you dont want to fly a wing then dont do it. Meanwhile I'll be having a blast on my warp. I'll race you if we ever fly together, assuming you actually fly..
Mitch “you have nothing to prove” LOL OK so whats your video all about 😂 what are your proving exactly? why dont you go do some real flying IF your a REAL pilot and show us how you’re Wrap is collapse resistant on all trim setting!
Hi Mitch, top work as always. I find your classroom just as riveting as watching you fully committed at head height. Both are a huge inspiration even though I don’t yet have a full understanding of most of what you’re doing. I have an ITV Daytona 23m and so little practical experience it may as well be none. The manual say it’s ‘a full reflex wing regardless of trim position’ and ‘The accelerator/speed-bar is usable over the entire trim range.’ I am therefore assuming that any main brake induced manoeuvres, such as the low level flying you do must be trimmed in below the 25% mark they strongly advise not to use the brakes above? Is this then still in reflex or now a freeflight configuration? Plus does actuating the speedbar fully trimmed in not the put the wing back into the less preferable middle ground you highlighted in your first vid? Hope you haven’t nodded off, sorry if I’m completely missing something obvious. Stay safe. N.B I guess I’m a bit confused about why one would ever choose to fly anything other than fully trimmed in or fully accelerated, and bizarrely why the manufacturers barely mention it when they warn us about all manner of potential hazards. This question feels increasingly more stupid the more I type 🤐
I'm not familiar with the Daytona. Does it have tip steering? If so, then you can still fly above 25% trim, just try to only use tip steering to turn. Even when you fly reflex gliders in that mid range speed and use the brakes, they are still very collapse resistant, just less so than normal. If it's a calm evening in smooth air you won't have issues even using the main brakes. If you watch the natural real world collapse videos on RU-vid of reflex gliders, the majority of them are pilots flying about halfway trimmed out and putting pressure on the brake lines while flying in turbulence so just avoid doing that. With some wings speedbar and trimmers do the same thing, others are different. I'd need to read the manual for your wing
@@MitchG Thank you for replying, it does have tip steer. I was under the impression, wrongly by the sounds of it, that when trying to maintain a constant altitude with high bank angles (like when you’re scaring the ants) tip steer doesn’t produce the required increase in lift needed to offset the exponential rise in thrust that quickly surpasses what you’ve got in your right hand. Do you use the main brake toggle when down low and not on bar? I’m not really comparing apples with apples though am I, that’s what I’m missing I guess? Your wing is agile enough with only tips steer and your conservation of energy makes it look aggressive, because on the Daytona you’d have to be trying to yank the bridle off to get the same snap and roll rate. Sorry, you’ve probably got better things to do. Thanks for the videos, they’re so valuable because they highlight the areas I need to understand better. Take care.
@@stephenchidley6180 in my videos when I'm at high bank angles, I'm not on speedbar nor trimmed out. I'm using a pk or power attack system that combines trimmers with speedbar. So basically I'm full speed and at the same time that I bank the wing to turn, I release the speedbar and apply brakes to hold the turn. Then level off and reapply the speedbar. Also, the wings I'm flying that way are very agile so just 2 inches of pulling the tip steering line is enough to put the wing tip on the horizon. I have another video about flying low and fast on bar that explains what I'm doing better.
@@MitchG thanks, appreciate your time. I’ve just watched it, probably should have done that before having a crisis on a public forum. I didn’t take into account that generally the low stuff isn’t done in conditions that are likely to cause a reflex wing to misbehave, you’re constantly trading speed, which you’ve got plenty of, for altitude to fill the thrust gap, (and there’s probably some conservation of angular momentum at play because we rotate around the kite) and you’re not in high bank turns long enough to worry about disrupting laminar flow. I used to jump on or in stuff, crash a few times and work backwards, obviously that’s not a great plan for Paramotoring, especially low level. I’m also aware that neither is the current over reaction I’ve had by trying to make it formulaic. It’ll all be good, just finding the balance. Thanks for your help, greatly appreciated. My big lesson from these videos is at low level you’re either fully accelerated or trimmed in, the two most desirable configurations for a reflex wing as you explained in the first one. Thank you, never really questioned it before, and it’s pretty important. I look forward to the next nugget.
Reflex wings are less efficient. This is very evident if you go paragliding with a reflex wing because your sink rate will be higher than classic profile wings
I was thinking to buy an Ozone Freeride 19m especially for coastal soaring. The glide would not be so great as a normal paragliding wing but is that an issue for coastal soaring? I would choose for a Paramotor wing like the freeride just because they can go fast and can be flown from low wind speed till high windspeed in coastal soaring. Is this an exceptable reason? Thx for your reply Wim
That and the roadster 3 is really lifty as long as you keep trimmers in. The thing with using one wing for both is with PPG you kinda like to be loaded more and PG a bit lighter so Its really better too just get a used PG wing thats fits you instead of trying to free fly a smaller PPG glider. Just my opinion really.
@@MitchG ask 577 Jersey Customs Adventures to let you do a test with his dominator I'm sure he would do it, I would really love to see a true non bias test done.
Reflex gliders aren't tested. En rated gliders aren't tested for collapse resistance, only collapse recover. En rating doesn't mean a glider is safer, it only means it will recover from a collapse in a specific number of seconds IF you are flying in the weight range. Safety comes from the pilot, not the glider. People in this sport die from human error, not from unsafe gliders
Nice to really see the behavior with this demo Mitch. Would you expect lower class reflexes to behave the same, say a B or C reflex wing, when compared to non-reflex? I assume it is the same at different classes, its cool to see how the warp just floats out there when you surge it in front of you. I guess wing loaded and freefalling into that slack would help keep the inflation then even more. Thanks for posting these
From my experience it just depends on the glider. My universal handles like it has less reflex than the warp. An ozone spyder has less reflex than both. Different brands chooses to add more or have less reflex in their wings. Even within brands like ITV sells semi reflex and full reflex gliders. You have to read each specific wing manual and kite them to find out.
Super Stupid Dell will laugh at this ..We all know there's no such thing as reflex It's a Gimmick..Great job Mitch ..Would love a video on how Trims effect landings and take-off's especially swooping and flaring along with take off run distance V's take-off speed .
this is perfect example of what all reflex wing pilots already know and feel in flight. Hopefully this example explanation will wake up the flex haters and super non believers out there.
Reflex wings are superior in any format when flying with engine.. I am a fan of hybrid reflex wings so that u can go up and pull the trims back and soar as a none reflex and have more time soaring.. if u are going fast( using engine) that will be the most safe mode to fly reflex and when u shot down the engine and want to soar, it's best to have it none reflex for soaring.. so the hybrid reflex wings are the best.. Mac Para charger 1 , Mac Para eden 6 powered wing are both hybrid wings . The new Mac Para charger 2 is Not hybrid.. so I don't like the new Mac Para 2 .. if u are buying a new wing, get a hybrid one.. u will enjoy most.. unless u are a advanced pilot with crazy skills and u want to do only reflex fast wings only.. do not go with none reflex wing at all.. the trailing edge design on reflex and none reflex are totally different and that %100 effects the flying characteristics of it under power.. Any company offers hybrid wings, stay with those as beginners and intermediate pilots, and after u develop enough skills, go only with reflex wings ( none hybrid wings on smaller size with more wing loading)..
It's a trade off. The gravity makes tons of lift for its size and has lots of flare authority. Take offs and landings are easy. I just wouldn't fly it in rough air near the ground
That's always an option unless you are flying near the top speed on a reflex glider. A reflex glider in the same class and size as a non reflex glider can fly about twice as fast and is much more resistant to collapse. If you don't care to go fast or far then a non reflex wing is fine
@@MitchG I only go fast between thermals or there is too high sink rate, full bar collapse is very dynamic and we don't fly with bar close to the ground. I can't imagine 80kl/h collapse with motor on ur back. You have SIV video with trimmers all the way out?
@@feralfpv3768 ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-c4TlEzcSgew.html It's very difficult to collapse a full reflex wing at full speed by pulling the A risers siv style but if you jab the main brake lines then this happens. In normal ppg conditions, the wings are extremely unlikely to collapse even at full speed as long as you don't have any brake pressure applied
@@MitchG Good vid. Yes frontals would be hard to simulate on that and simulations vs real active air is bit of a controversy........ That frontal from pulling brake at speed was interesting and quite dynamic(naturally at that speed). That wasn't much brake either, perhaps bad air can induce trailing edge deflections or a moving center of lift at speed?!
@@feralfpv3768 when full speed on a reflex wing the center of pressure is at the nose of the glider until you pull even a small amount of brake, then the center of pressure rapidly moves aft and causes the collapse. When full speed on reflex gliders you only turn with tip steering for this reason
Its funny how Super Dell says the opposite and puts the word TRUTH in front of what I can only presume is a lie. I guess no one will let him sell their products so he is stuck with the K2 knock offs. I was talking to a pilot of many years the other day and he was saying what a game-changer reflex is.
