@@guyblack9729 it was a surprisingly nuanced video. Brodie did a great job staying out of the politics of the situation. The great part of free software is that it's free. You can do whatever you want with it. Unfortunately the community is full of cry bullies that will try and ruin someone over politics.
most people who just install hyprland from the repos and have probably never heard about any community (like me) are crawling from under a rock and being like "wut? who's this?" and 15 minutes later they forget about the whole thing
@@currentsubset6885 Not unless you only use it to talk to your friends and dont go into any public servers/groupchats thats how it is with all social media
Just one example, but ReiserFS. Just got dropped from the kernel, was unmaintained for years due to Hans Reiser's association with it and nobody wanting to touch it or be associated with it. It's not the only project that has died directly because of its association with their lead devs either.
@@JmbFountain I said it wasn't properly maintained because of Reiser's association with it. The same can absolutely happen to hyprland, where other devs won't want to work on or with hyprland. I'd kind of be surprised if someone didn't fork hyprland in the wake of the now 3rd incident involving the hyprland community.
@@kienanvellaAny fork would be pointless unless it's someone that will devote their full time to developing it and is as skilled as Vaxry, because Hyprland was and still mostly is a one man project. This isn't like PolyMC where the one person contributing the least was left.
Yes, I think he will respond diff when he hits 40yrs. Imagine caring if a child throws a tantrum! I say what I want and to hell with the complainers. Complainers will complain.
@@arnavgrover4631 toxicity is what those who call people snowflakes demonstrate to us every day. They whinge about everything from Easter eggs not having the word Easter on the box, to OTHER PEOPLE wearing hijabs, to OTHER PEOPLE kissing and loving people with the same genitals as them. The minute someone forces someone not to celebrate Easter, or to wear a hijab, or to kiss someone with the same genitalia as them, or to state their own pronouns, I’ll be the first to say this is wrong. Until then, those who throw around the word “snowflake” should show some respect. Get to know a woman, a transwoman, a gay man, a Muslim, an Afro-Caribbean, or something. You may just find they’re not so great a threat to society as you thought. As for bigotry, we’re not too far from the 100th anniversary of a very good demonstration of the threat bigotry poses to society.
So that´s why I don´t get what´s even going on. I´m 50 and don´t even understand the who/what/why here. I understand this much: It´s drama and something about gender. Look. It´s rather simple. If someone identifies as a toaster, I will still like or dislike them for what they do, not what they are. How hard can it be? I´m born in a different world than kids of today. But that doesn´t mean I can´t use my brain.
It makes zero sense to have developers running chatrooms. I personally would not want to be responsible for any kind of internet mass communication channel in any way, shape or form.
I've been involved with an OSS Discord bot project, and for the project to be allowed to run, it's literally mandatory it has an associated server... 😅
It's slow as shit on sandybridge gpu. Sway runs fine while also using wlroots. And yes i did disable background blur and all the other unnecessary performance hogs
I don't care about the politics either, I just love using hyprland. I got into it because of Brodie and now he's not using it I feel so betrayed but I forgive him. 😂
Actually, I like being able to hop into a project specific discord and ask casually for advice from other users, I find it super handy. It's like an actually good version of LLM's... asking other people.
The outcome of this will be interesting. Hyprland is currently the best tiling compositor, and I don’t think anyone is wanting to fork it, so vaxry is going to probably continue being a major player in the space.
@@ImperiumLibertasyeah I foresee a bunch of 'protest forks' but with the amount of work done on hyprland which is by vaxry himself I highly doubt they will go anywhere
There's no discord drama. There are just people with issues that find an issue with something that was already discussed and making it an issue. Fdf coc mods also have madtadon posts that don't comply with the coc. They should resign and fox themselves first.
@@cutiepielonely "Fdf coc mods also have madtadon posts that don't comply with the coc. They should resign and fox themselves first." I have no idea what anything in this sentence means, so I'll politely agree...
@@CEOofGameDev Freedesktop forum "code of conduct" moderators have mastadon posts that violate freedesktop "code of conduct", so I am implying they should apply it to themselves. Just look at the irony, "Free" desktop where you cant speak as you wish outside in your life without them governing you. Just to be clear, freedom of speech isnt an excuse to use slurs or offend minorities. But that didnt happen. Linux isn't super popular to be gatekeeped or to ban valuable contributors just because of these fascists. They should ditch Linux and create something else if they think they shouldn't use software made by problematic people because Richard Stallman has good amount of contribution. TLDR This isnt simply an issue of childish dev acting entitled. Varxy can sure be dislikable but banning people that can actually improve wayland(wlroots) for silly discord reasons is very childish at best and maybe fascist at worst. Linus already warned us about getting politics involved with gnu.
@@CEOofGameDev CoC is I belive “Code of Conduct”, “Madtadon” is a typo for Mastodon - the “Patreon but serious (?)” No idea what “fdf” or “fox themselves” means. Would be thankful for any input xD
"This is going to be the first of many situations where the FOSS ecosystem is going to deal with the fact that there is a lot of people that you do not agree with." Didn't we already learn this during the vim/emacs wars, the UNIX wars, the incessant "I use Arch btw" plague, Elastic doing its licensing games, RedHat pissing off its own CentOS base, Redis doing its licensing things, etc. These are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head xD. EDIT: Systemd vs init!! I knew I forgot one.
"Due to your users are mostly assholes, we've decided it's easier to ban your entire social network, known as X, as Twitter, as etc. Sincerely, your internet police."
I couldn't care less about how 'nice' the people who develop the software I use are, that said I don't use Hyprland and if I had to choose between it or an interchangeable project where both meet my needs, I would go with the one with the 'nicer' developer/ community. That said, contribution bans should be used on people that try to sabotage/ add malware/ backdoors to the project.
I would go with the community that uses free software to develop the software (i.e. Matrix instead of Discord, Codeberg instead of GitHub, Weblate instead of Crowdin, etc.).
from what i can understand, the FDO saw what Vaxry said in the hyprland discord and didn’t like it, so they banned him from talking in FD channels (GitLab, IRC)
Because he still has contributed to fdo projects and other fdo project contributors reported him to the coc team. And they are saying this is not acceptable behaviour in our space no matter where its said given public statements
Multiple fd.o members talked to moderators about how they feel uncomfortable with Vaxry in the fd.o space because of how he acts in public and in his own Discord server. An fd.o moderator reached out to Vaxry to share this and advised him to avoid such actions in the fd.o space (particularly wlroots' GitLab and Matrix). Vaxry melts down and doxxes the officer, so fd.o proceeds to ban him as a response.
@@BrodieRobertson The subreddit is primarily about news and discussion, so we let it stay up. But I will say in my near year of moderating the sub, this had been the most heated thread by far.
In 66 years iv'e noticed that the people that have issues with what you say are just people with issues. I mean you are very civil in you language and as nice as you are, and people have issues with what you say are the very people I'm talking about. Very level headed. IMO
While I do agree this is often the case I do believe there are some situations where people complaining about what one says have some merit to their request
Varxy is also just kind of a rude dick whenever he replies to anyone, so I don't like him as a person on that basis. Still gonna use hypr tho Cus it's pretty epic
I actually just gave Hyprland a go for the first time and absolutely loved it, had no idea this was going on LOL I don't really feel either party was being very mature, but I also feel that insulting someone's pronouns is not a good way to get anything done, or good humor. For me, I think that because of how this all started, I'm simply going to take this as more evidence that Discord is not worth your time, and let it go. This in no way needs to get this heated, and it's just gonna escalate. We must learn to let things go, and let folks get back on the right track to learn from their mistakes.
Having done all my research already and looking at all sides of the different angles. I think it's a two-way street. The email needed a couple of revisions for tone, and Vaxry read things that really weren't there or implied by those emails. From there it just escalated. Honestly I feel sorry for him. I've been in his position before. I surrounded myself with some terrible people and I was having life issues irl too. It really just warps your judgement completely and it makes you do and say dumb s***. I eventually did a couple of really terrible/dumb things and thought it was justified bc of my surroundings. Seeing meaning in things that really weren't written or implied or was too vague to cast judgement on. Then escalating it and causing a s***storm like this one. I was lucky I still had ppl to talk me down and make me come to my senses. I hope he can too.
I also feel the other side did not show their best side. Everyone can see this is a person that is in over his head. If they were trying to escalate, get him banned and bring the project down I can't see what they would have done differently.
@gusvanwes6192 yeah, I agree, but that's what you get when there is already bad blood. Justified or not. Edit: it's not a takedown or a hit. It just looks that way bc of all the drama it stirred up.
@@shockwave3318 You sure about that? Because it kinda seems like they victim stack gang got a coc used against someone because it couldn't cope with the other existing, and neither could shut up. Why wasn't the other person banned then? Oh wait... a they/them can't be the opressor and be held to their own standards. I'm not saying either side was good.. but look who got taken down, and was targeted first.. because you know darn well that if CoC talked to a they them about its lowsy behavior, it would be cries & accusations of oppression.
I think it's entirely reasonable to request he be professional in his communications around the project. Nobody is arguing on that point. What is not okay is trying to subvert an open source project because the maintainer wouldn't be forced into using preferred pronouns. Additionally, using a red hat email and not clarifying the "we" in "we will take action" seems purposefully deceitful. But that's just my opinion. I understand those email addresses aren't endorsements.
As I understand it, "fairly good" in Aussie is "incredible" in Amercian English. That is, a step above "not bad" and just a shade below "Vegemite-grade."
The issue is you can't easily 'not interact with FTO'. If this was a smaller project that wasn't in charge of everything this would be way more acceptable.
@@BrodieRobertsonhow can we contribute to standardize freedesktop portals and other stuff without it tho? Just YOLO with that "wayland is not ready APIs guy"?
@@BrodieRobertson I'm not sure you understand what the FTO does (considering you seem to referencing it as 'code). Not being able to submit to it is significantly harmful both to Hyprland and to Vaxry. Vaxry in the past has made numerous important contributions (tearing, cursors, more), no longer being able to do that means that Hyprland now no longer has a say in what happens to the Linux desktop as a whole. It's not good to understate the control that the FDO has over the linux desktop. As I said, it's not just any project.
You know it's a controversial issue when Brodie's "opinion" is to make up your own mind. Just speculating though, I think he at least mildly disagrees with banning Vaxry from the FDO.
Certainly, even someone who doesn’t have to try to maintain a non biased stance (for this example, someone who doesn’t care either way) has their opinion leak into their coverage or telling of the events.
I disagree with the ban as well. Mostly because escalating to a ban seems a bit premature. It was definitely where he was headed towards though. The FDO person (I can't remember the spelling for my life) should have sent a more professionally worded reminder noting that his emails so far are written like a temper tantrum, calming down that this is just a Warning and nothing else will happen, that this is just the FDO sending him a Warning as a sort of notification of their stance on the matter and that this email chain should focus on the topic at hand. From there if the behaviour continues have it escalate to a 1 month timeout (or a 1 week one if we want to just be symbolic) based on the fact that he can't seem to behave professionally when interacting with folks from the project, and from there to a 6month-timeout or ban. At least for as "light" an infraction as this was. (Also of course make it clear that this is the escalation chain he's headed towards in the interest of open communication). Its sort of an "everybody sucks here" situation but imo Vaxry's reaction blew this out of proportion.
i agree that hyprland does not need a discord. It would prevent alot of drama and allow vaxry to focus on coding and keep his opinions out of the spotlight. Also this will keep happening. polymc vs prism launcher, hyprland and it's fork etc. the one thing opensource is good at is forking when a dev doesn't like something. And it would be good if everyone could be tolerant of each others ideas, but that is not going to happen with modern tribalism. view projects like how you view content creators, and try not to harass people for having different opinions. the block button exists for a reason.
I mean, free software and open source *is* inherently political. But this particular instance doesn't even have anything to do with politics. Just someone being a dick.
It may be childish, but the one of the consequences is that a person who contributed good code to multiple FOSS project won't be able to anymore. Sure, it's just a one person, but if that becomes a trend, it may be really bad for FOSS, given how much we need contributors. For many smaller projects, one contributor less is a big difference.
@@kuhluhOG I mean Vaxry. Imagine if every FOSS project just banned every contributor with opinions and behavior that project owner don't agree with. You would probably be surprised how big part of world's FOSS code is written by tankies, racists and even worse people. And I see no problem with it as long as the code is good, free and open-source.
My initial thoughts on this situation, without looking into what exactly was said, are thus: 1) Why ban someone from a project for their conduct on a discord server? 2) Why would someone try to have the project removed from repositories over discord drama? (Sounds like a bad egg trying to take advantage of the situation to cause mischief) 3) If you go down the rabbit hole of banning talent from a project for reasons other than the quality of their work all your going to do is balkanize the project. When it comes to matters of community like discord servers its perfectly reasonable to moderate it as seen fit, but what happens in a discord server needs to stay in the discord server.
one consideration to someone's quality of work should also be how well that person can collaborate with others to create more quality. vaxry in the past has been difficult to work with, for example, being a little aggressive when he was asked to make certain considerations so that hyprland could then be proceeded to be made available in the void linux repository. however i can see how sometimes it is necessary to take control of what happens to your own project.
Trying to control an outside developer and associated community for words and actions that happen outside the organization covered by a Code of Conduct is essentially the worst case scenario that the CoC doomers warned us about.
Doomers... bro, we just read the fucking room and ya know we kinda cheated. Twitter & facebook existed.... so we got to see exactly how it would go down with even very LARGE & WELL FUNDED, with illusions of accountability to go around. The way you phrased that is like calling someone that knows what red & green make in physical paint or digital artwork... I'm trying to be respectful, and I hope you understand the level of absuridity that in what you said. You should realize it's played out like this ...every signal time. Every group that played up those roles, every encounter with this kind of 'person' having an issue with another, every place where it's minority focused. You really should step back and take a look at the playbook that happens every time, and who gets slammed and how it's reported by people. I wish people would have listened, but alot of what's being said isn't a slippery slope... it's what happens. The moment you align a ToS/CoC/Eula/w.e to one set of believes that quotes 'protects' one side over the other, it will be abused. Any attempt to curve/solve the issues from the one side will only land with accusations and attacks about you being a horriple person that doesn't deserve to exist or be where you are.
@@JPBennett The code of conduct exists to set out the boundaries of communication of all contributors to a project. If you break the CoC there is no reason why the maintainers shouldn't act in accordance with their enforcement guidelines. He broke the CoC thus the maintainers want nothing to do with him.
I think a lot of people would be surprised at how many people in the FOSS world are much bigger assholes and much worse crybabies than any of the people involved in this matter. The difference is that most of them communicate through more professional means than an unmoderated discord server. It also shows the perils of letting engineers communicate instead of PR personnel.
@@unpotatoedsalmon wait, this guy didn’t even make a statement, he abused his privilege because he thought it would be funny to intentionally upset someone that he deemed lesser. Don’t confuse discourse for being a dumbass bully.
I learned of this through another channel's video that focused only on Vaxry's blog posts. He said the usual "come to your own conclusion" but it was pretty obvious he was leaving some stuff out. Now I can see why.
How is having a Discord different from having an IRC or a Matrix server in terms of how the community interacts with it? Would you also say OSS projects shouldn't have IRC servers?
If IRC was popular yes, but since most people don't even know what IRC is or how to use it you get a very filtered down number of the most dedicated users. It's the same reason the kernel doesn't get many trolls, a mailing list is a lot of effort
@@BrodieRobertson IRC is not good for technical discussions anymore. You need to be able to share images and format code posts. Simply having forum posts for code dev is not practical.
@@excidium666 Something many open source devs get wrong. Standard "implementations". While standard protocols are good, the lack of standard implementations is a problem in many things. Something proprietary software doesn't run into as much. I'd like to see a lot more standard libraries & software in Linux. For applications, less fragmentation would be nice. We don't need 50 different task managers. Just one that works better than Windows. ATM KDEs is the most feature complete for example. Gnomes is a joke. Maybe I'm wrong, this is just my feeling.
@@zezba9000: Less fragmentation isn't important, more _categorized grades_ (e.g. "feature count", "stability", "user-base size", etc.) are important. When there's a particular thing (e.g. the IRC protocol) that you can judge a particular app by, then it's highly valuable to have that clearly described.
I read Drew's initial blog post, and wasn't convinced by it. In fact, I don't agree with Drew's politicis. And yet, I use Sway as my daily driver. I would use Hyprland too, if it ever got to work on my machine. I don't care about either developer's politics, and I'm pretty sure most people don't. We have got to stop these purity tests being forced on the community!
The people who are puritanical in this community seem to believe themselves free speech and free expression advocates. Why give a shit about how people represent themselves when you’re an advocate for freedom of speech? Why care about how they express themselves when you’re an advocate for freedom of expression? It’s a shame how people think that they are advocates for freedom when they’re the ones who are restricting other’s rights.
Is there anything that would cross the line for you? Would you feel the same if a developer was convicted of mass murder? I'm not comparing Vaxry's actions to murder, I'm just trying to say that for most people, there exists a line SOMEWHERE. If you agree, then it's just a subjective opinion of where that line is, and you can probably understand if other people draw the line differently than you do.
@@backpackvacuum9520 Nope, none at all, it's not a matter of agreeing or disagreeing with the dev, it's a matter of practicality and using what works best for me. Why would I hurt myself just because I don't agree with him? I can understand wanting to hurt him in the most primitive senses, but wanting to hurt yourself sounds like mental illness and you should probably consider help. It's FOSS, you're not hurting him in any shape or form by not using the software. This isn't like speaking with your wallet in a capitalistic environment. If the project ends up dying because he's jailed that's a whole different issue though. But the reason I'd stop using it is because the project died, completely irrelevant to what the dev did.
@@DDracee chosing to use the product or not is completely different from FreeDesktop choosing to associate with him or not. The first is gaining utility from a free product by an individual, the second is (to some degree) stating your approval of the developer and linking your reputation with theirs. Like it or not, software is about people, and if a dev isn't treating their users like people, then that's bad. It doesn't mean you can't use the software if you want to, but it means that other developers might not want to give you their stamp of approval.
@@backpackvacuum9520 The OP was talking about personal use and you never insinuated otherwise. But on that topic I'd agree that it's different, but not in the way you worded it. Using controversial software is not a statement of approval. But you do run the risk of inheriting that controversy so it can be judged to be a good PR decision to avoid that altercation altogether. That said, this still has no effect on the dev of the controversial FOSS project. He'd be developing that software regardless. Note that Freedesktop/RedHat do have financial and legislative motives despite being FOSS. In the case of a project with no such motives, the question remains the same. Why hurt your own project just because you don't agree with who wrote the code? If that code makes the project better, there's nothing else to talk about. I cannot wrap my head around the concept of needing to adhere to someone's philosophies when using something they made. There's absolutely no logical sense to this.
Vaxry sounds like an unagreeable person. Yet he also appears to be pretty damn productive. My take is that his code can stand on its own. If people have a problem with him, let them make a determination of whether they want to use that code or not. Let people determine if they want to associate with him or not.
Or ya know.. we can start telling those who are to sensitive to stuff it. Like unless the person is actively using a certain community to be hositile.. Maybe what happens in discord dumpster stays in discord dumpster.
I'm a bit worried about a split in FDO software or hyprland being abandoned. I do believe that opening up this idea that you could be banned for things that occur outside of the project is kinda insane. Due to just basic time constraints this leads to the promotion of witch hunts. Plenty of people could be barred from the project with this mentality.
I don't think (or at least hope so) that hyprland will be abandoned as it is almost single handedly made by one person, so as long as that one person keeps on it with a few others dedicated to help, it'll be alive. I do agree that it may cause a split in FDO and just the fact that you can be banned for things that occur outside of the project will definitely have a huge impact going forward.
Hyprland is in quite a healthy development state but as with most projects like this its mainly maintained by one person that being vaxry, there are other big contributors but not to that level
@@BrodieRobertson I hope vaxry knows that he has support. He has created one of the best tiling desktop environments ever. He needs guidance not shame.
I really don't know if what happened on the Discord was particularly professional, but I don't really like the idea of banning someone from another online space just because they behaved inappropriately in one online space. It seems very harsh and pretty much sets up a scenario such that if you screw up once, you've made enemies of anyone who sympathizes with the person you hurt, forever. I get that Red Hat/FreeDesktop might be worried about how being associated with Vaxry would hurt their brand, but in my view as long as he was following their rules on their official channels, it doesn't make a lot of sense to ban him. I know that this "offsite rule enforcement" thing is becoming popular, such that if you violate a community's rules in a different place before you even join it, you can be held accountable and banned even if you had not yet agreed to follow those rules when you engaged in the behavior, or if the community you behaved that way in had different rules to start with. I don't like that policy and I know that things never used to work that way on the Internet... it used to be that if you screwed up and got banned from one place, then you were banned from that one place, and that was it, you were free to continue following the rules of other communities and not have something offsite used as an excuse to ban you... that is, your behavior within a given community wasn't assumed to be a reflection of how you conduct yourself within the rules of another. Now it seems like it's very much a "there is but one universal bar, if you don't meet it, you are immediately banned from nearly everything except for communities who have no problem with your behavior and who won't expect you to improve." I feel that because of this policy, I can never do anything high-profile because... if some stuff I said decades ago when I was a teenager was brought back up again, that would be enough to get me banned from almost half the Internet. And the only reason that hasn't happened is because I'm not high-profile enough to be on that many people's radars. If I ever was, I would be screwed. I guess the moral of the story is, if you're a normal person who can't behave perfectly all the time and meet these high standards consistently, don't be in a leadership position and do your best to avoid attention. Use lots of pseudonyms and don't worry about getting credit.
I really can't believe that this has blown up this much. I mean seriously, what happened was not the best way to deal with this situation but also no reason to try to remove the project. There should have been a simple apology and the issue should have been resolved. There are people out there who treat other people way worse. This is of course an insult to some, but it is way less of an insult than if Linus lashes out at a contributor asking (for Linus) stupid questions. And what now? Everyone should also delete Linux? No of course not, since you have to separate the project and the people behind it. Especially if the people behind it aren't that bad.
Yeah it is kind of different when Linus says your code or idea or implementation sucks balls vs you are not a really person that don't deserve the same dignity that you would expect. For his very acerbic nature being born Finnish after all he always plays the ball and not the person.
@@tibbydudeza It is all in relation how much a person values that aspect. If your pronouns are important to you, you would take great offense when someone misgenders you. On the other side if you take great pride in your code and maybe even are a fan of Linus because of his great achievements, it would hurt greatly to get insulted for your goodwill. And I didn't quite get the meaning of the last part.
@@-cdz- The difference isn't in *how* insulted someone feels. It's *why* the insult was levied in the first place. Being criticized for your work hurts, but it's not the same thing as being criticized for who you are. A better analogy would be if Linus lashed out because the author is Italian (just as a random example, I have no idea what Linux thinks about Italians).
@@-cdz- Oh it is English saying - means by all means disagree with on the issue but never get personal. Linus said nVidia sucks because of their Optimus switching tech was broken - he never said nVidia CEO Jensen Huang should die a thousands deaths or needs to go back home to Taiwan. That is the meaning essentially.
One side of this fight is hosting a package of ideas that says it's a moral atrocity to associate with anyone who doesn't adhere to the same ideas. Something like this outcome was written in stone the moment someone from that camp recognized Vaxry as an enemy. Totalitarian memeplexes be that way.
My views are pretty much the same to what someone posted with minor disagreements. "Is Vaxry a nice guy? No. Is Vaxry a very young, arrogant and opinionated adult? Yes. Are Vaxry's blogposts a problem? Yes, exchanges like these are very unsavory. Is the Hyprland discord community toxic? It kind of is. (though this is very complicated, It's not all that clear as people are making it out to be). With all of that out of the way, I think anyone who has read Lyude's emails and thinks this is fine is a bit insane. To me this whole thing is basically bully vs. bully. However one bully is just a kid with zero wisdom/life experience & the other bully is representing a big organization & is trying to rally support to their cause in a very political way that really shouldn't ever occur in any serious work environment, open source or not. To me it seems like some folks at the FDO decided that they strongly dislike Vaxry (I can get this part, since he is not a very likeable guy) for various reasons & then decided to give him the middle finger in a really ill prepared and juvenile way." They should have acted better given their station lol. Warning my ass, what they gave was essentially a big "We are gonna ban you because some members complained about what your community has done years ago" They didn't send a warning to see if he was gonna improve, they sent a notice as a way to provoke an reaction. I could smell the passive-aggressiveness of that letter coming miles away.
@@BrodieRobertson Oh yes it is an uphill battle. The whole life is an uphill battle but at least some people have self respect to not bow down to freaks enjoying bureaucratic power.
@@DeviRuto imo its worthwhile to try having a discussion even if there's a < 1% chance it leads to some positive outcome. Would you want to live in a world where no one tries to make things better because trying is hard and has a high risk of failure? I think a great moderator can generate understanding on both sides rather than have it turn into a pointless flame war. I believe this is something the open source community needs but probably doesn't even know why it might be valuable.
@@icantcomeupwithnames469 Except it wasn't in their own space. FDO are trying to control someone's behaviour *outside* of their own space, it's clearly stated in their own emails. You're being disingenuous.
It is as follows: the edgy teens on vaxry's discord were mean to a person in their server but that person turned out to be part of the foss lgbt clique, and the situation escalated to important people of that clique which got hyprland booted from contributing to freedesktop
Honestly i don't agree with hyprland not needing a discord server, it's been nothing but helpful and welcoming to me, fixing bugs, having some conversations in general chat etc. I didn't have that expierence elsewhare. I dont' want to take sides here, but tarring everyone over the same brush is also not a solution.
Yeah, Brodie didn't really acknowledge how much Hyprland emphasizes Discord as a support forum. While my personal take is that Discord is a *garbage* platform to use as a support forum, even Minecraft is using it as their official feedback "site" now, so I think I've lost that battle...
The idea is that there would be an alternative support channel, like github discussions or something. His point is partially validated by the stupid mess we find ourselves in. Is general conversation/banter important to a window manager, especially when it comes with such risks? That being said, these nutjobs would cancel his project from leaked private conversations anyways, so at the end of the day it probably wouldn't change anything. I wonder if there's even a solution to this issue, besides just bifurcating the OSS community... I'd be in favour of that tbh, maybe we should just start using the SQLite CoE or something as a signal for these freaks.
I think support forums are great but I don't know if you need live chat to have a useful support forum
6 месяцев назад
@@GSBarlev I think most forget how "modern" forums/mailinglists can be with things such as Hyperkitty or Discourse which are much better as a support platform alongside any chat system.
I think general chat support is great, but Discord is not the place to do that on. Not only because it's closed-soure and not libre, but also because it's just a crap place to be in. There are too many people there
As a trans woman, I do agree vaxry has...questionable opinions. But i disagree entirely with his ban. I think it's even more unfortunate since there was discussion about hyprcursor becoming an FDO standard.
I don’t agree with Vax on most things, but I do agree with RedHat abusing their position to harass and force other FOSS projects to do want them to do.
@@Hellscaped yes, but redhat as a company (and many of their employees) have a habit of invading other FOSS projects and essentially taking them over. And that’s if they aren’t writing their own code and then making all of their other projects rely on it, forcing it to be a required piece of the software stack even of distro or people don’t want to use it.
The pre-emptive warning mail was the most asinine shit that was in no way needed and I completely understand vaxrys reply to it. That mail should never have been sent unless vaxry actually crossed the line on fd.o, but he didn't (yet). Sure he could have responded better, but seriously how would any normal adult respond if they got a warning for something they didn't do? Laugh? Point out the hypocrisy? Point out the possible power abuse?
I would've been nastier than he did tbh. Tired of woke corporate America and their loony bullshit trying to shove the opinions of 1% down the throats of the 99%
That's just free speech, man. Vaxerski is free to say and do whatever he wants. FDO just told him, if you're continuing this behaviour, we will not work with you. He STILL has the right to do and say whatever he wants. They have the right to not work with him. That's how it works. Freedom of speech doesn't protect you from the consequences of your own actions. You can say what you want, others have the right to thing you're a moron.
I don't think a developer, or their project, should be punished for what their community does, or acts like. I'm coming into this fresh off the Tech Over Tea Episode with Vaxry. I have seen Nicco's video about this subject as well, and having spent a little time in the server, all I can say is the support i got assistance for was superb, but I don't think I would just hang out there. I don't really have much coding knowledge. I don't think I could really contribute anything significant to the project. About the best I can do is assist with troubleshooting issues that I had previously encountered.
I love that your video is about giving straight information without taking a side. I love that it’s here’s what’s up, here’s what you can look into, I’m not going to push ideas into your head. Very nice.
There will always be people who like to stir up the smallest possible drama as if it was the worst day in human history, neither can you please everyone. In fact, on the internet it is way easier to make people pissed off. Tectone, an example of a man getting sent death threats on Twitter on a daily basis for over 3 years, I know this very well. When the pronoun situation happened, it could've been resolved in a 30-minute Discord call, and no one would've know. However, due to the blog posts, Mastodon and especially the Reddit post, it got way out of hand. I'll be real though, I had no idea hyprland even had a Discord, nor would I really care. It's a pretty good piece of software in my experience. This is informative and unfortunate
I knew this was the endgame once code of conducts started appearing. Sadly I believe they have been a net negative with all the drama involved and endless bickering.
We're heading toward purity testing for both contributors and users of FOSS. This will not end well. If Hyprland is suddenly disappeared from distributions under pressure to conform or be shamed, it will be an escalation. Same if contributors and users are extradited from FOSS.
As a non-binary hyprland user for now I am going to keep using hyprland until something better for my use case comes along. If hyprland continues to be the best for me I will continue to use it. Possibly avoiding the discord because it is not needed. Not that discord trolls concern me I have been in the hyprland discord with my pronouns in my user name and only discussed hyprland. That being said I would prefer people not to be dicks
Honestly at this point I think the wayland standalone compositor ecosystem is kinda not getting any better. When I decided to switch to Wayland I was shocked with how few options are available, and how many are one burnout away from being abadoned. The development burden is just too great for lone devs/small groups
@@excidium666 you finally found out the reason that wayland exists. i'm proud of you :-) I was excited for wayland too before I found out that they coded away ways around their own protocol to sabotage per-window-isolation just for convienence and for copy-and-pasting to exist. just another burdensome project that had a great thing going for it in the beginning DITW from RH
If you can't adult, you shouldn't position. The _adult_ thing to do here is to just let the offending party make more a fool of themselves and be over it. Open-source projects grind to a halt _because_ of drama like this. So either the drama dies, or your project dies. That simple yo.
Who cares? Someone who takes time to edit someone's bio by abusing their power. This whole drama could have been so easily avoided if they really didn't care.
Yep. If he actually "didn't care" this wouldn't have happened. They cared enough to fuck with someone about something they knew is important to that person. That was a deliberate choice.
Why do people care about the maintainers of the project? if it's good software that I enjoy and it's not violating my privacy I will probably keep using it.
@@mk72v2oq coc dont help here, im pretty sure gnome is all formal and bullshit, they still ignore bug reports about any gtk desktop tools effected by their opinions on themeing
@@mk72v2oq you mean when you wonder why a bug hasn't been fixed and its because the developer of hyprland is not allowed to contribute to wlroots (the wayland compositor library that hyprland uses) or any other freedesktop project?
After reading the pdf, I sort of understand the first response because vraxy said that the email was sent solely to criticize his community. I liked it when he said that they should try be more constructive. Unfortunately, he starts to be very critical of the intentions of the email right after. He also said, almost immediately, that he is closing communications as he doesn't think that the other person was being sincere. This strikes me as hypocritical, especially as he didn't provide much constructive criticism himself. Sincere conversation allows for questions and second chances imo. If you have a different interpreration, I would really like to hear it
Imagine believing that someone who thinks that if a man cuts off his genitals, he becomes a woman and not a eunuch, could in any way shape or form be reasoned with at all.
I have a very different interpretation: Lyude CC'd the public discussion list, and immediately made it all public before any response. And immediately started with "none of this is up for debate or discussion". AND has a history of powertripping, along with the 3 other immature CoCs responsible for this debacle. It is very natural for Vaxry to be critical of their obviously disingenuous intentions.
“We pretend to be animal people on the internet, but we are all human here. We make mistakes, we have bad days, and we get emotional.” - Lyude’s own CoC
If Hyprland gets compromised due to such pettiness, I'm going to have an aneurysm. Hyprland is the only wm/de that I like. People need to separate the art from the artist, or in this case, the code from the programmer.
My conclusion is that I don't really care what happened. As long as I can still use Hyprland and get updates what happened between everyone involved is their business not mine.
Ah yes excluding someone from a society or forum of communication entirely for having an opinion you do not like in an entirely unrelated forum and on an entirely unrelated subject.... Surely this isn't a highly problematic and severely oppressive manipulation tactic that's been used in any problematic historical context at all... I can't seem to think of any examples, other than the Red Scare, Nazi Germany, the USSR, the DPRK, ...
yeah, fight eachother over pronouns, cancel projects and people, as long as youre not fighting those who *actually* oppress and exploit you. make sure to never think on your own or question your ideology. this is the most important thing in the world, not unity, not solidarity, not liberation.
A teacher in Ireland is in jail indefinitely for refusing to call a boy a girl. This is about liberation, there are very bad people in the world and they want complete submission.
Exactly what ideology are you talking about? Because existence of trans and non-binary people is not an ideology. If you think it is, then you are just uneducated and misinformed.
I definitely agree with that OpenSUSE guy. If the project itself isn't toxic, then does this matter? It's childish discord drama that that the average user doesn't know or care about. If you got rid of everything you owned where terrible people were involved in its making, you'd be naked and homeless.
Even if I believed he was a racist bigot (I don't think they are, a little childish maybe I didn't find the jokes funny), I would still use the code there are a lot of people I don't like that make great products that's just how it is ( I don't know them at all so I neither like nor dislike them) eg. if you are using a lithium battery it doesn't mean you agree with how they are made etc etc. Banning someone for their alleged views is imo the antithesis of being open and free.
This wasn’t about views…. This was a stupid joke attempting designed to upset people. That not an opinion. Everyone is free to shut up and ignore how other people see themselves. It is stupid to have opinions about how other people see themselves. It isn’t your choice. Just shut up and ignore it.
I find it disturbing that a person is so fragile that a 2/10 insult can cripple their entire existence. Maybe a little push back is an important service, we all get it in life.
@@tomverlaine728 Maybe it’s not up for you to decide how much it matters to someone else. Probably worthwhile to mind your own business rather than being mad about someone else’s feelings.
@@dereknelson6980 Keep on crying, People getting upset about some words, is just plain ridiculous. We should try to become normal again, and get rid of the crybaby woke stuff.
I'm using Hyprland for over a year and I don't intend to change that. I talked to Vaxry over a few issues on Github and yes, he can be kind of an ass sometimes, so what? I should stop using Hyperland because he's an ass? Hell no.
You’re right with your opinion on discords and with every project having a server. But Linus was only half right about the benefits of open source: open source is good if you want to get people with different opinions to work together. But only if you don’t give them the ability to interact with each other too much. The linux kernel works so well in this regard, because it only has mail as central form communication between contributors. Mail is slow and people think a bit more before they send one. It’s not as easy to get pulled into a heated discussion.
I know you pointed people in the direction of reading the posts and emails themselves to form their own opinions, but after doing this myself and seeing how much it influenced my opinion to see full context plus more viewpoints on this situation, and in knowing that most people really aren't actually going to do this because they can't be bothered; I really think there's a case to be made that this video deserves a detailed followup.. Of course I can understand if you'd rather just stay out of the drama :)
I don't think this kind of behavior makes Vaxry some kind of evil terrible person, but he does have some growing up to do if he and his community want to be accepted into spaces which demand people treat each other with mutual respect. He had many opportunities to change his behavior and improve things and for the most part he hasn't. To be perfectly honest I would not want to work with someone like this either, despite how amazing Hyprland is.
People here being "Hey, he joked about other people worries, and made little of them on a public work forum, but he is a talented programmer, so he is in the right", and "FDO overstepped by seeing someone diminish his coworkers on a public forum and warning him to not repeat that behavior on their public forums, sure he is right on his reply that he 'is free to do whatever he wants because fuck you' and FDO is wrong on finding his response bad and giving him a timeout to think on what he just said"... Gotta love how they like to handout free passes to talented bad people who won't apologize nor regret acting bad!
@@maxinne86 He didn't do anything bad. He just stood up to bullies who are destroying western society. Not only should he get a pass, he should get a boost from it.
@@256shadesofgrey you are right here, not feeling bullied and sharing you personal view on this public forum… And it is fine, as long as you won’t belittle me or any other person sharing this space with you… He broke the rules and got warned, as would happen in any PUBLIC space, where cordiality and civility are a non optional requirements…
@@ImperiumLibertasright: Free Speech. their nickname being censored because it doesn’t align with the views of the developer/discord moderator. Goes both ways, and korn received his sacrifice.
@@5fr4ewq Literally not true, nor even make sense, unless you are mistakenly confusing FOSS for the the Free Software Foundation (FSF). Surely you aren't claiming that every person who pushes to a public repo is making some concerted political statement?
@@UlcerousAxis The comments section on YT regarding a video with a tangential political connection is not open-source code. No amount of cope or gaslighting is going to change my mind about this commonsense and self-evident truth.
It's happening in every different type of group. Activists come in, get offended and throw a fit, before you know it there's a cancellation mob gunning for you. I say it's the activists because sane and reasonable people do not try and destroy a person and project simply because that person said/did something they didn't like. The weaponized fragility is off the charts.
Marginalized people are already well aware that there are a LOT of people who "disagree" with them in every walk of life. Framing this as a disagreement between equals is a HUGE cop-out, if not a straight-up vote for the status quo.
100% agree with this. I hate hearing stuff like this because I'm just being told "hey, people would like to see you ousted from society and stripped of your rights and you just need to deal with it."
I think there is a growing movement of "counter SJW's" who just seek to create division. They are probably not aware that the LGBTQ community literally faces constant death threats, and a political party that will do every single thing to take every conceivable right they can until they conform to 'their' ideals. It's astonishing that the ones who complain about cancel culture the most are the perpetrators of the biggest cancellation of them all, in that they are trying to cancel a significantly large portion of the population from living a safe and hate-free life. A lot of these people who want to "keep politics out of software" are so ignorant to the fact that they are contributing to a toxic environment by enabling real bigots who seek to spread hate. My opinion does seem to be the minority, as most of the people who either ambivalent or in pure support of the bigotry are the majority, but perhaps the overlap between "incel/alt-right" culture and Linux window managers is pretty prevalent. I should say that these people are doing a great job at pushing people back into Windows/MacOS, as it is hard to feel a sense of community when so many people actively support trans/homophobia in this community, at least so openly and as the majority.