For many neurodivergent people, especially those with a late diagnosis (and possibly including people with CPTSD) its not merely a situation of choosing to hide feelings and needs. We've often shoved those down so deeply that we don't even KNOW what our needs and want are! It's extremely complicated to work through all of that.
count me out, I'm cptsd, brain damaged, mold toxic brain, post stroke and concussions covid swad damaged, etc.....and I NEVER shoved my needs down. I spoke of them, cried them out, requested...and was still shot down. So, not all of us stuff. But it got me more abused. I just can't even be abled a victim in hiding. It made no difference though. I think we have to stop labeling everything and just pain work on the damage, syndromes, and move forward. I didn't grow up with all thee labels I would have been in the 80s and I'm so glad!
I'm 67. Daughter of a covert narc mother. I've been reading and youtubing myself to mental health since my mid 20s. This video has achieved more than I could ever explain. I've still been too terrified to say No to mother, even at my age. You've changed my life. Honestly. Tears of gratitude and relief. Thank you both 🥰
WOW!!! Is all I can say as well. I'm 66 years old and grew up myself with a malignant Narcissist of a mother who cared less about my life and well-being. Thank you, Forrest and Dr. Rick for changing my mindset for the better and for a better future. Learning not to put yourself first and ignoring my needs really put me in a dark and dangerous place. I'm thankful and grateful for this phenomenal presentation. God bless.
@@gblim398 run if you can. I really understand and feel for you. I'd have gone no contact years ago if I knew that was something you could do. Now I live 50 yards away from mine. Fortunately not within sight. Leave yours behind if you can. Love to you ❤️
@michaelmcclellanjr9831 I am no expert on the subject. In fact, although it has always been very clear to my sibs and me that mom has serious issues, it's only been a couple of years since I figured out exactly what it is: covert (aka vulnerable) narcissism. There are countless videos on this topic here on RU-vid, but if you want to look at a quick checklist of the behaviors that define covert narcissism, google: "Charlie Health vulnerable narcissist" And good luck.
Been to many psychologists and psychiatrists over decades and none ever addressed self-abandonment. This concept is life changing. Seems critical to understand this in order to stop beating one's self up and make positive life changes.
Meee toooo 😊 my dad is such a covert horror show, listening to these two reaffirms my faith in humankind AND MYSELF. They prove to me I was never crazy to believe there was something missing from my father's mind and Love for me.
Story of my life! Five years ago I finally learned who the narcs and who the people pleasers in my family were. My eyes were open and realized my worth as a person and deserve better. To this day, I still struggle with self abandonment especially when left alone, losing interest in hobbies or projects. But I've made the first few steps to self love, but, the struggle is still there. Watching your video has given me the hope that I needed and most importantly things I needed to hear. Thank you so much!
Can’t heal alongside a narcissist but you can run far away from them and heal yourself. Dear fellow narc scapegoats, I’m sorry your dad happened to you, you deserved better and it’s not in your head. I believe in you. You’re special, you’re talented, you’re smart, you’re a good person, you’re worthy of respect and you’re resilient af. all ya gotta do to earn your keep aka be unconditionally loved is to exist. I’m proud of you. you’re gonna go far, kid. Ps that’s a good dad
Fantastic explanations. I’m noticing, as a chronic other- focussed woman of a certain age, an automatic urge to quickly share this. It certainly deserves a wide audience, but I am learning to hold for myself first. 🙏
Forrest and Dr. Rick ... I am listening to you all the way from India. Your well structured podcasts , useful tools for healing and your compassionate understanding is what draws me in . Thank you very much .
The right video, at the right moment in time. Just listening to these guys talking made old tensions wither away. I was genuinely yawning and sighing through it all.
A well organised, thoughtfully scripted and heartfelt understanding of this difficult topic. Quite a revelation to see son and father together in this space with so much knowledge, communication and empathy. The summary is beautifully put and helped me understand the topic in a deeper way. Thank you.
I was going to put this on my playlist until I got to 25 seconds in and I am not going to listen to the entire video. You and your dad are just lovely...pure beautiful energy. I think I am going to enjoy this listen so thank you in advance.
I have listened to and watched so so many videos and podcasts on this topic. This is the very first where I feel like I have a point of entry into your vocabulary and your presentation of this material. It’s a tough topic but at the same time I truly enjoyed listening to you two speak on this. Thank you
Very helpful and poignant podcast. I'm a big fan of both Forrest and Dr.Rick. Self abandonment is very entrenched in my psyche and is very difficult to change that mindset in my 60's. My psychologist and I discuss these issues, she also and has attended Dr Ricks seminars in Australia. Thank you both
Well, fellas, you've outdone yourselves with my favourite episode yet! This talk was poignant and soul-nourishing. I'm going to have to re-listen to the podcast again (and again)!
Meditating for 2 years now, I _undestand_ a lot of parts mentioned about being nature, being with ones true self - not by rationale or philosophic intelect, but by having experienced them while meditating. It sounds like the most boring thing ever, but it changed my life for the better by a significant part. Its all about practicing being gentle, kind and aware with and of yourself. For this, it needs comfort and positive interest. if you have to force yourself or are trying to focus, youre doing something wrong. its just being - and being aware, nothing more! :)
THANK YOU FOR THIS. I NEVER would have thought this topic applied to me. I have been working through a toxic relationship with my family, alone without a therapist, for some time now. The way it has manifests is me trying to do everything I can for them to "help" them, but feeling like my help never really fixes anything. I came up with the idea that what I mostly feel about my family is shame. On reddit I came across a comment that said "shame is sometimes just anger towards others turned inward". And it hit me, I wasn't facing the anger I feel towards my family for all the pain they constantly cause me and eachother but refuse to acknowlege, its not MY shame, it's theirs. I had never once thought it until that moment... "THEY should be ashamed of themselves". I have been in a pattern of ignoring it so that I can protect my very flimsy idea of a "good, close-knit family" and doing everything in my power put a bandage here and stop the bleeding there for YEARS to no avail. I see now that in my adulthood, I have developed this sort of self-abandonment the more I saw my family for who they truly are. When I was younger and specifically with my mother, I had a very avoidant attachment style, even in dating. But as I have gotten older, I have developed a very anxious attachment style with my broader family who I always wanted around but my mother distanced us from. This is all SUCH a concise revelation for me. THANK YOU SO MUCH! I will start really naming my righteous anger and speaking truth to power.
Thanks for this. It helped me to see that I'm not the only person in this situation. I've been trying hard for years to help my family, all in the hope that by supporting them, they would be ok, and we would be closer as a family. Now I know, I was just wearing my self out, becoming more isolated in the process. I lost some of myself and now i'm the one that needs fixing, and i'm all alone. It's hard to accept, but i'm hoping that awareness will lead onto me getting well again.
Oh my gosh, just watching and listening to you guys has so much healing property! Been there with you guys! I’m so grateful you guys are doing this! May you guys be blessed with more! 😂❤❤
40:00 ❤ So true 😢 I don't like being someone taking their issues on me, humiliating, shaming and being told to get over it. It DOES change things. I am so tired and now avoiding environments of people who are entitled to be this way. Thank you for acknowledging this. It feels refreshing, kind and validating. If there something I did, I will apologize & take accountability.
If I developed shame-based submission as a child as an adaptive response to my parents, how does healing that shame as an adult require me to redo my attitude, perhaps unexpressed, towards my parents? Do I betray my parents by revisiting and revising who I became through childhood submission? Do I betray my parents by becoming different than they raised me to be? I want to be an adult but I don't want to betray my birth family. I don't want to be alone, i want to belong and my birth family is my most primordial membership in a group.
I guess I assume that repairing self abandonment would mean ending my shame-based submissive attitude that I adopted while very young. I feel like, not just compliant behavior, but compliant thoughts and emotions are expected of my membership in my birth family. I want to respect my elders and my family organization structure, which I do not control and in which I try to fit.
@@DerekRichardson-k8c it is only possible to get both if your family can accept your actual self. if not, then you must radically accept that you'll have to choose 1 of the 2.
@buffienguyen it makes all the sense in the world. I thought i was 'losing my mind'. Dark days indeed. It seems to be a core truth, but Thankyou - and thankyou Forrest and Rick. Meditation is non-negotiable, I did learn that. All the v best. Take excellent care.
Great insights- thank you! And great chemistry between dad and son- I can almost imagine them from years ago, having similar conversations- the boy holding his dad’s hand as they talk.
I went to a convent school from age 4 to 13. The nuns were all deliberately self abandoning and saw that as a virtue which we were meant to aspire to. Not a good start to be told any self assertion was a dangerous outbreak of pride and ugly, undesirable behaviour!
I have anxious attachment and do this when I want to stay connected to someone who I feel could push me away if I don't say yes or agree with them when I wouldn't if I stayed true to myself. Of course this related to my childhood trauma. Agreed, I do feel loathing and shame when I engage in this behavior. Over the years I have developed much stronger boundaries with work and friends. I struggle most with this when interacting with a love interest.
Well, you said you were going to narrate for podcast listeners and then didn't. So here I am, having to stop my podcast to find it on RU-vid to see a 1 min section... Having said that, I really appreciate what you do and thank you for your content. Please take my comment as constructive and with a lot of love ❤
Thank you both for bringing this topic up! Very timely. When things like economic systems or country boundaries and boundaries between sexes or ages begin to break down the world can feel out of control. People can begin to explore or experience unpredictable ways of feeling more in control. That’s why things like cults do well in those sort of environments. Right? I love the podcasts because some folks make the household a battlefield of control, and if one has needs that may be inconvenient, voicing them can bring punishing arguments about how to get those challenges met. But blame is not a solution. It absolves us of responsibility for creating or discovering solutions. So I think that’s why some folks who might feel lonesome or misunderstood lean on the podcasts, maybe too much. Oops. My bad. 😂😊 To experience empathy or witness creativity that is solution-oriented. To learn how to be less… argumentative or needy or whatever. 😅
I have come a long way over the years, but when saying no to someone else and yes to myself I often struggle due to empathy for the other person - e.g. "yes, I planned to do X but my daughter doesn't often go out so I should babysit for her" etc. I don't have any issue with saying no in all circumstances, only those where I feel a lot of empathy for the other person. Maybe that's just normal and OK.
Please get Stan Tatkin on the show to explore how individuals and couples may best approach attachment work dynamically with one another, perhaps the only real way.
It’s crazy how I already do this because I can’t see from far without my glasses and I NEVER wear them! I walk around like I’m the only one in the room 😂😂
What if the things they want for themselves are toxic, like monkey branching to other partners, cheating, missing birthdays for other lovers? Then feeling self abandoned when they can't have them.
I ADORE THIS 🥹🥹🥹🥹🥹 what a sweet way to start -with the support of your father ,in real time--we don’t see that every day. Thank you for sharing this!!💐🥳🤩😍
I loved when Rick talked about retro actively healing and mourning what was lost when we abandon ourselves. Rick’s explanation of the heal method became more clear to me and was so helpful . Forest does such a beautiful job of asking and guiding the discussion that helps us who are on this journey of finding who we are.🩷
@@Jennifer-gr7hnEven en so, it's healed and healthy now. It's very rare. I have never experienced that in my entire life. I have never seen people who are willing to admit their relationship needs healing.
It is so nice to see a father and son enjoy this kind of heart to heart conversation. I am Chinese. It is rather rare to have this kind of connection between parents and children among my Chinese friends and family members. Maybe I haven't meet enough Chinese people. I certainly do not have this kind of relationship with my parents. I am working on building this kind of connection with my kid. Thank you so much for sharing this. It is very helpful!!
I feel the same way. But sometimes, one has to give up when it is simply not possible due to the cultural gaps and historical reasons one faces. I find Taoism offers a lot help when it comes to ease the pain about this kind of loss. I become more at ease once I realise that as long as I accept who I am, it does not matter if my parents do not accept me or reject me because I can not meet their ridiculous exceptions. I wish you the very best and find your own happiness. @@_ZiXin_
Hi, Jennifer. Thank you for this thoughtful response. I appreciate your understanding and your love for Chinese culture. I am also very attracted to the Italian culture. The architecture, the paintings, the sculptures, the music, and of course, the poetry and novels. Although I had never been to Italy, I would love to visit there one day. I have been watch this channel because I admire their courage to take on radical changes and am touched by his honesty and openness. I find their family so wholesome and educational. Like you said, I need to break the cycle and be the authentic person I am and build my connection with my child from there because it will be real connection. Thank you again and I hope we can all grow to be more loving and authentic as persons. @@Jennifer-gr7hn
One of the reasons we say yes is because of a void inside that makes us unsure what we need. So beneath self abandonment is a lack of self. It’s easier (almost always a relief) to say yes when somebody else proposes something. At least for a while I’m becoming what they need, there’s no void. This is lifelong work in getting to first know and then come to love our selves. Edited at 8:17 when Forrest says “lack of a strong interior”. Yes! Exactly. I’ve found through somatic therapy that I do in fact have a robust interior, but it’s buried so deep that my therapist and I gently joke that around others my “signal gets weak” 😅
That hit me too. Around others my signal gets muddled and too weak or too strong. Been working to close the gap between my public and my private self...selves? 😂It's a little scary sometimes.
This seems like a small thing, but the way that Forrest was able to say “the one thing I’m going to ask you to do dad, is not to put the (paper) pad in front of the microphone… put it more to the side of your face…” and then for Rick to respond with compliance (following Forrest’s instructions) and humour! I found my own anxiety jump up as soon as Forrest started saying that, in recognition of times when I tried to express a reasonable need or request in the past and for it to be met with defensiveness or hostility or a whole host of negative responses. To see this interaction feels so foreign to me, and I now feel so sad for my inner parts that held those experiences and wounds and are now telling other parts to shut up and suppress needs as a way to stay safe. 😔 These videos help me a lot, bit by bit, by showing me beyond the content what healthy interactions/relationships can look like. I find myself having deep admiration for you both (and Elizabeth) for being able to heal to a good enough state to form these relationships and the generosity to share these with us. I also find myself experiencing some envy of your relationships, and wishing that I could have that too.
Thank you for saying that - and bless your strong heart for continuing to choose to find love for all of your different parts ❤ you know, one thing about it (😂) is that I just *know* reading these kind of comments that we are soooo much more than just survivors or something like that. The overwhelming majority of us have soo much compassion, peace and love inside of us that it’s honestly practically overflowing. The only wall to that well just happens to be something that, let’s imagine, some evil corporation built many years ago that is starting to break down, and the righteously angry but peaceful villagers are chipping away at, brick by brick. There’s my lil piece for you :) as you gave to us. Good luck ❤
@@marrrweee thank you, and I completely agree. In fact, I think that out of all of our experience with pain and suffering, it’s allowed a lot of us to be able to recognise and connect with others who are in pain. Once we are able to heal to a good enough state (and it doesn’t have to be for every aspect of us), many of us go on to become healers and passionate advocates. I wish you all the best on your journey, also 🪴
It made cringe too, but I’m still unsure as to why exactly. I’ll try to dig. I think for me, I see it as saving face, or putting the other in a negative light. In my experience and culture (Mexican) you don’t put others in a negative light and correcting someone publicly is to say you’re doing something wrong, therefore you now lose credibility or whatever. I think it’s a mix of my culture and my experience with authority figures as a child with adhd and such. Alas, I recognize that there are other ways of thinking about this, and there is a way to look at this that doesn’t cause my nervous system to flare for really no good reason 🙂
If I could only express in words how helpful this episode has been. To many, therapy is simply not accessible, financially or otherwise. Thank you so much! 🙏🕊❤️
And it is completely possible to heal without therapy if you can be honest with yourself. If that is a presenting issue- being deeply out of touch and in denial- self-therapy probably won't work out too well to move you into a different pattern of existence. You'll just justify and solidify the same dysfunctional and maladaptive mechanisms that you are actually trying to shed. Good luck everybody. Be Honest.
Wonderfully insightful video. The belief that I'm the "worst in the world." The self-loathing and shame whenever I do or say the wrong thing just destroys me. I'm so angry and disgusted at myself for not preempting or controlling something that should have been obvious. It turns everyday stuff into a long string of traumatic events. I must be perfect and invisible at all times.
funnily enough i feel the same way. You've articulated it well. Today, someone in my family told me I hurt them by saying something insensitive. I remember making the remark but i'm still struggling to see how it could be taken that way. I feel shitty when I think about something I said, and still shitty when I say something I haven't already been feeling shitty about.
Thank you for expressing this so well. I feel the same way. It's like seeing my inner world put into words. Thank you so much for taking the time to share. 😊🙏🏼
I have had some very good therapist and a couple of not so good. I have a great therapist at the present time who is educated in childhood trauma. When I was speaking of incompetence I was referring more to the present day with other professionals. I have nothing bad to say about the psychologists, psychiatrists, or counsellors I've seen over the years. It's the medical physicians I've met that are incompetent and even negligent.
I felt so emotional when Rick showed the different perspectives of the small circle self and the big circle world/ others, compared to the big circle self and the small circle world/ others Seeing it put so simply allowed me to feel a deeper recognition of when I feel most likely to self abandon - is when I feel small compared to everyone around me, and I somewhat automatically believe and feel that I come second to everyone And conversely, when I feel more grounded within myself in the times where I am just being myself without needing to try and be anything other than who I am in that moment, and how freeing that can feel I generally only feel that self-assurance at certain times when I am by myself, and I have taken the time to choose to encourage myself that I'm okay being who I am I want to practice working on being that encourager and acceptor of me, allowing myself to be important in my life. The visual reminder of the circles was helpful and is something I want to intentionally embody This is the first video of yours that I have seen, and I am so grateful to have stumbled upon it, particularly because self abandonment is something that deeply impacts my life, and I adored the energy and thoughtfulness you both brought to the conversation Thank you, Forrest and Dad :)
hey, i just wanted to say that what you said really resonated with me, and that if you wanna chat about all this, idk, just discuss how self-abandonment affected our lives and how we’re coping with it - feel free to hit me up :)
I have to say I have listened to at least 100 different podcasts on grief, shame, family dysfunction and dynamics and you have provided many “aha” moments to resolve self abandonment! So Glad I found your podcasts! Thank you and Happy Easter!!
OMG this spoke to me so much. As a black woman, I have had experience of saying no, which has had consequences. Before I even say no, I am seen as agressive or uppity. I’ve tried to make myself so small to feel safe. I am now cultivating a sense of security for myself, for the first time I am learning to trust myself.
This is one of the most well done pieces of content I have heard for trauma survivors and healers of C/PTSD, and I have absorbed an abundant amount of content on the topic. I have written word-for-word notes during this talk and plan to revisit it often and incorporate it into my healing journey. Thank you, immensely. 🤲🏼
The penny just dropped for me... I never ever thought of ' self abandonment' until this video popped up! We know and resent what others have done or are doing to us, yet we go ahead and do it to ourselves!
Just wanted to say how much I deeply appreciate you and your dad making this type of wisdom accessible to us. It is truly healing and so needed in this world. Thank you.
thank you Forrest for thinking about a diversity perspectives :) therapy tools are not always universal and applying them selectively is definitely a skill
"When safety feels more important than authenticity." Whew this hit hard as a trauma survivor. Learning how to be safe after leaving truly, really unsafe spaces is so, so hard.
One thing I did abandon myself for is the interaction... like... the life experience that was, at that moment, better than no life at all. It's a damaging option, either way, because there's cost in both choices. I was so bored in a household full of negativity and emotionality that never concerned me, always, always the self-centered adults around. Horrific in its own way, boredom and the feeling that you're just withering before having had a chance to grow. Like waiting to slowly decay, whilst still alive.
Thank you for bringing up the points at 38:20. The acknowledgment was important but I replayed to see if I missed something that could be integrated and 😕. As an educated Black woman with a big mouth…life for me ain’t been no crystal stairs and folks always trying to put certain people in their place. But I’ll continue to walk with this question since self abandonment for me became illness, surgery, and then dealing with medical racism. Le sigh. Beautiful conversation nonetheless and beautiful to witness a healthy parent-child relationship.
I don’t even know who I am because of all of these issues. It’s like every thought, idea, or desire I have is stupid and I think about either how I’m supposed to act or think or what I should do that is all about keeping up appearances, if that makes any sense. It’s an incredibly insecure and sad place to be.
You noticing that is a knowing that provides a path forward. A path to notice what matters to you, what doesn’t and so on. If you listen to that, you will find your way. You’re already on your way.
Immediately into the topic here. Saving this now and really looking forward to listening to it while I get out for a walk this evening. Appreciate you both! ❤️
Absolutely tragic childhood and just thinking about talking about my needs or receiving empathy is such a hard thing to except. I would get beat yelled at or attack for showing emotion. I was told to not show my depression anxiety or feelings. Im a woman divorced and these topics are such hard topic but its good to listen that there is help.
I'm convinced there is no God; people just select everything Good and blindly attribute to God and everything Bad and attribute it to something else. What other entity, with the same attribution strategy, would not be deemed as wonderful? Here's an idea, how about we acknowledge and honor the tangible, measurable, demonstrated hard work and dedication these guys invested and avoid paying homage to an invisible, inaudible, intangible, imperceptible sky-daddy. Just a thought.
Forrest, I want to thank you and your father for taking the time to help me understand the unique dynamics of Mental Health Counseling. I am beginning a Masters of Counseling program at NCSU this summer. My hope that I can understand how to ask questions and learn the art of listening to assist others in freeing themselves from past traumas and show up as their best selves.
12:35 In therapy, there’s a thing we really want, or a thing we really need whether it’s reconnection with ourself; maybe it’s the ability to say no to other people when we really want to say no to them. Maybe it’s just feeling safe by ourselves as an individual. Whatever it is to build ourselves up. Whatever it is gets built up it’s done so by trying out doing that. Trying it out was really freaking scary because it went really poorly in the past and that’s why this self abandoning behavior developed. …vitality affects and feelings bypasses fears of true self being known.
Always appreciate your insights as I listen to your podcasts, but this one was full of those 'uncomfortable, eww" moments. Thank you for your encouragement and making awareness available to all of us in an understandable way.
Discovered this podcast pre-Covid and you have been an anchor in my life ever since. I was wondering if there is a key episode that describes safety or if you could dedicate an episode to defining what it means to be or feel ‘safe’. Thank you for this podcast and for sharing your hearts ❤.
Forrest and Rick thank you so much for this. I am only 13:38min into the video so far, but I am absolutely loving the quality of questions and interaction between you. Beautifully and inspiring that father and son can interact so respectful and attentive
23:35 😂😂😂 Up until this point, I was half listening, filing my taxes on another screen. But I'm back. Now I can't tear myself away from Dr Hanson with a legal pad glued to the side of his head, for some reason. So confused 😂😂😂
@ForrestHanson lol looks like you bring out the best in him. Too heartwarming seeing the way you two vibe as coworkers. Happy to see you with such great people in your inner circle. 💜
