I was really looking forward to this talk. I've enjoyed your discussion on each Beethoven symphony as it has been shared and this one was no exception. I also thought I'd mention that I just purchased a new e-reader and your Beethoven book was my first acquisition. It's really wonderful -- enabling me to hear works that I've known for years with "new ears" and inspiring me to fill in gaps of unexplored territory. I especially appreciate your identifying certain characteristic structures or techniques that Beethoven used across his compositions (e.g., the "bounce"). Your gift of communication is as evident in your writing as in your talks, but I would add that where your talks are wonderfully spontaneous and often funny, your writing, though no less engaging, is very polished and clear. On a personal note, your Beethoven symphony recommendations have been very validating. When I was in college (early 80s), I somewhat obsessively checked out all of the Beethoven symphony cycle records from the university library and listened for hours in search of a set that I would actually purchase. I ended up going with the Szell/Cleveland. About ten years later, in my quest for my ideal 9th, I landed on the Wand recording. It was gratifying to hear you speak so favourably about Szell's and Wand's Beethoven recordings. Thank you for continuing to enrich and encourage my ongoing exploration of great music! It has been very meaningful and a lot of fun!
THAT passage in the first movement, the one you say nobody talks about is where Furtwangler always makes me silently gasp: the strings play the series of chords at the end with enormous weight, and Furtwangler makes a very deliberate ritardando which, to me, feels inherent in the music itself. It is one of those incredible moments where, in the words of Klemperer when he talked about Mahler's conducting "It couldn't be otherwise".
I’m not going to say Scherchen is the best Eroica, but it’s the certainly the most entertaining and simply fun. For anyone who hasn’t heard it, I highly recommend you strap in for the ride and keep on listening.
I agree with almost everything except for the revolutionary/radical side of the piece. To our 2021 ears nothing is no more revolutionary. It has to be judge in context of the period and yes it is revolutionary in comparison with not only Mozart and Haydn but also with Beethoven first two symphonies.
Just listen to the first movement of Mozart's Symphony 40 and try to understand what radicality in dissonance, developing variation and musical structure actually is. Then try again to talk about Beethoven's third
Great content! I am a (late period) Beethoven fanatic and have been going through so many of your videos on that topic. Eroica was certainly one of my early favorites but I have distanced myself from it a lot since then. Interesting to hear why.
I've listened to many, many, many recordings of B3 over the years and attended many live performances of this piece (even performed it (bassoon 1) ) and I don't think I have to tell you what a beast this monumental piece of music is to perform with even a miniscule modicum of success. Technically the piece from start to finish is a train wreck waiting to happen. So to begin with you need an orchestra with the highest level of precision to fluidly pull off the intricate phrasing from one musical idea to the next. Without a doubt, Szell and the Clevelanders fit the bill from start to finish and Szell knew what a shiny diamond the CO was with him at the helm. With an incredibly impressive collection of woodwind players, all world class virtuosos in their own right, and a phenomenal horn section led by arguably the greatest horn virtuoso of that era, Myron Bloom, Szell let the music lead his players to such an inspired performance, capped off by arguably the greatest recorded "Eroica" finale of all time. Szell/CO should be the gold standard for the "Eroica" for a real long time.
Brilliant work again David! I have many of the ones you cited but I was missing Szell's which I just purchased and listened too. Wow! The finale made my hair stand on end, which wouldn't be so remarkable except that I am entirely bald! Anyway, thanks again!
I've always liked Toscanini‘s (alleged) comment to an orchestra when rehearsing the Eroica: it’s not Hitler, it’s not Mussolini, it’s Allegro con brio.
another extremely enjoyable talk. love how you explain your side and how you discourage useless comments. i went back to listen to bohm then compared them to your recommendations. i clearly noted how less flexible he was compared to say kletzki. you are making me discover new treasures and i deeply thank you. you’re also quite amusing. i just love all your videos.
Funny, those few musical exerpts of Kletzki's recording discouraged me wanting to listen to the entire Eroica by Kletzki. The example at 20:16 reminded me at Furtwängler saying (about a very strict tempo): "It sounds awfully direct!" Well, I don't think Karl Böhm was great at Beethoven (however Böhm is well known for his Mozart recordings especially "Die Zauberflöte" with the unforgotten Fritz Wunderlich)! I made some of my friends listen to three versions of the Eroica (my favorite Beethoven symphony) asking them which one they liked most? It was only part from the first movement by Karajan, Bernstein and Furtwängler. First mono was the main issue. There Bernstein was their favorite. But when I asked them to ignore the mono suddenly Furtwängler had their admiration! I'm not sure whether this can be called manipulation or not? For my taste Karajan was far too fast (like also in the 5th). (I have to admit that Karajan made a great recording of Beethoven's 9th in 1947 with almost the same singers like Furtwängler's 1950 recording of the re-opening in Bayreuth!) Bernstein is excellent and without Furtwängler by far my (second) favorite. But hands down Furtwängler is simply outstanding. No matter that Dave calls Furtwängler "limited" or even a "one trick pony"! Yes, in music people have different tastes. You'll simply have to accept it. (This also is true for me. I simply have to accept that Dave has a different taste than me!)
Ok, I tried the Szell (mvt 1), Honeck (full) and Monteux (full). I loved the Honeck the most. His finale was really powerful for me, not in terms of strength but in terms of its ability to effectively highlight the wide variety of emotions that you mentioned was one of the most impressive aspects of the Eroica. The jumping from happy to sad and all emotions in between is certainly why I love the Eroica. I shamelessly admit it's my favourite Beethoven symphony after the Sublime Ninth. It was a lot of fun trying out some non-Fricsay Beethoven (which I have loved so much from your videos!)
The "Funeral March" was a hasty substitution by Erich Leinsdorf and the Boston Symphony when their concert was interrupted by the announcement from the stage of the assassination of President John F. Kennedy on November 22, 1963. I was in junior high school at the time and heard the tape-delayed concert on the radio two or three days later. I remember the announcement followed by gasps from the crowd and rustling sounds that gradually died down after the music commenced. I presume the tape is still in the Boston Symphony archives. Coincidentally, RCA released the "Eroica" on L.P. with Leinsdorf and the Boston Symphony the same year-- presumably recorded before the assassination. The music would have been fresh in everyone's mind... .
A live recording of that afternoon is here on RU-vid. Someone put the radio broadcast on here from BSO Hall. It is gut wreching to listen to the crowd.
I was wondering if I was crazy because I have always loved the Szell performance and I had no idea whether it was going to show up. You often hear people say that Szell is best with other orchestras besides Cleveland, but I've always thought that the Szell/Cleveland Eroica was a testament to the high level of music making happening in Cleveland under his helm. What makes his interpretation work for me is how deftly he characterizes each movement. The Eroica stands on the cusp of, and even points to, the era of program music to come in the later 19th century. Szell perfectly captures this "zwischenpunkt" between the classical era upon which Beethoven is innovating, and the movement towards programmatic representation in music that takes over later.
After listening to your extensive opening I got the impression you were not talking about the symphony but about all the talk about it. That is not the fault of the symphony nor Beethoven's. He just wrote a good piece of music with some flaws perhaps but considering that so many people love it without all the fuzz of the musicologists, its flaws are minor and the whole symphony achieves its goal. When I heard it for the first time I was blown away by it, especially the funeral march, and I had not read the liner notes. So indeed: talk less and listen more to the music
That is exactly my point and you certainly "got it." We need to distinguish between the music itself and the mountain of verbiage that gets said about it.
Less than an hour ago I listened to Szell's recording. It's been years Dave, but my God! the music leaps out the gate like a thoroughbred race horse from the first note and makes you feel as if there's no other way of playing it. If ever there was a perfect example of how humane Szell could be beneath that dictatorial manner of his, it's in the second movement. It's a bit quicker than some would like, but it truly shines, and you can hear ALL the notes from top to bottom. It's not an exercise in precision, it's gloriously humane music. That movement alone, and Szell's ability with Haydn, in my opinion, buries the lie that he was some kind of musical conducting machine devoid of human feeling. It's nonsense! And the last two movements of his Eroica really shows off how great the Cleveland Orchestra was in its prime, especially in the pointed beauty of the woodwinds and the brass. In my early days I was an unabashed Klemperer fan of this work and felt nobody on Earth could play it as well as he. Now after a 20 year absence of hearing Szell's performance, and an older man, I find Szell's just so inevitably "right." If ever there was a Desert Island Disc of Beethoven's Eroica, Szell's is truly the one to be shipwrecked with. Thanks so much for the review Dave. I really appreciate it. As many times as you've plugged the Kletzki cycle of Beethoven, you're inching me that much closer to buying my God, yet another Beethoven cycle. Time to find an "overflow room." :)
I would have been disappointed if you hadn't ended with the Szell/Cleveland. But you didn't disappoint me. When I was in high school, I listened to a performance of the Third with Szell and the Cleveland "live from Severance Hall" on the radio and I was transfixed. Still remember it.
of course, I understand David's point, but precisely the "grace" of "Eroica" is that it is a work of "transition", imperfect and at times anti-musical or beyond the possibilities of the time in which it was made. composed. The first version I heard was the one by Szell/Cleveland and Szell seems to have had no qualms about showing the score with all its scope and imperfections, and I confess that listening to it disconcerted me in parts. In the same way, over time (and I don't know if it's the right thing to do) I tended to listen to the works as "problems to be solved", and I think that this enriches the listening perspectives and, I believe, increases enjoyment and at the same time makes us be more selective.
Who am I to disagree with my favorite music critic, but David will never convince me that the Eroica wasn't radical or lessen my sheer enjoyment of this symphony from beginning to end.
I didn't interpret his words as denying that it was radical, I interpret it as him saying that it isn't radical now, since we have had Wagner, Mahler, Schoenberg, etc.
Fantastic talk, David. Szell - yes. Klemperer - yes. I reckon that if LvB had never ascribed any tribute to it, in the first place, all of the verbiage that we're now stuck with, would never have come about. Anyway, what is, is what is. I actually believe his first symphony is more coherent and - can I say 'confident' in terms of rule-breaking; the opening clashing chord is surely a sign of what Beethoven was about.
Finally found my favorite recording of this piece . It is also with Szell but with the Czech Philarmonic live . The transparent texture despite the not so great sound is still increbible . And that coda they do really comme close in reproducing the Cleveland studio recording , something Cleveland couldn't even do live with Szell :P
I will be the curmudgeon. It was my least favorite Beethoven symphony for many years until I heard the Von Matacic / Czech Philharmonic recording. It was too dry, and went on for too long. I do like it now (I have a Furtwangler/Vienna recroding from 1953 from the Musikverein -- not the one that Dave recommends but another one released by EMI Japan) that I just listened to and see how lyrical it is.
I got the Kletzki cycle on your recommendation and have been loving it. Just the other day I was thinking about how the winds articulate the opening theme in the third movement and how charming that was. Literally the highlight of the entire account for me.
Let's not forget what David has done here for music lovers. He has just talked for almost 50 minutes about a symphony that he can struggle to enjoy at times, knowing that many music lovers out there do love the Eroica. Thank you for this wonderful chat David!
In my early days of listening to the Eroica, I used to prefer Gardiner's version with O.R.R. It's in period instruments and really fast, clear, and is incessant in its want to keep pushing forward, which was something different from the Eroicas I had listened on youtube. After checking out your channel, I found out about Honeck's version and after one listening it has become my new reference. I would like to mention an anecdote about the Honeck recording. When I was first listening to it, I was outside walking. The sky was clear all day. However, the moment the fugue in the second movement started, there was a huge rumble in the sky and as soon as the brass and timpani enter, it started pouring! Now, it was obviously a coincidence but the whole moment that the music and the atmosphere created was simply breathtaking. I still get shivers thinking about that moment!
Glad to see Klemp was still up there after all these years, along with Szell. Klemperer most definitely for his masterful grasp of the work's epic narrative arc; Szell for the utter almost blinding clarity . I listened the other day to Szell and (unsmiling) Bohm one after the other because I was in the mood for the Eroica and I thought Bohm's held up very well indeed. Poor old Karl always gets the short end of the stick, but I'm glad you did a review of the DG box set!
Another superb, educational video - thank you so much, David. I'm systematically going through your list here, listening to each recommendation. So far, Erich Kleiber's 3rd stands out, for me, as the one that moves me to the most repeat plays - it's simply stupendous. By the way, Pristine Classical has cleaned up and improved the sound for Kleiber's 3rd, making it sound fantastic.
The first test I apply to recordings of the Eroica is whether the violin syncopation in measures 7 and 8 is clear or whether it just sounds like one long held note. Unfortunately, many recordings seem to fail on this point.
Dave, I'm new to the channel and delighted with your videos. My first Eroica was given me in my Easter basket when I was in the fourth grade (now some 41 years ago as I am just turned 50 last week). It was a cassette of Szell/Cleveland and my very first classical recording all-my-own. One part took my breath away and made me sit up: your "foggy Jersey turnpike" moment (what I called in my callow youth the "train" moment because it chuggs off at the end). Though you complain no one mentions that segment, it was MY Eroica moment. Szell/Cleveland is the recording I have turned to again and again throughout my life.
to be clear: The Monteux box contains 2 3rds: the other is with Vienna, and to me is worth listening to for the clarity of the second violin parts which you don't often hear (and a pretty good performance too) Eloquence really knows what they're doing in their selection of recordings. Thanks for pointing this release out, Dave. not sure if this was in wide release in the U S. when it came out in the '60s.
I think it was recordings by Szell and Ormandy that introduced me to the Eroica when I was young. Then I heard Toscanini and Furtwangler. It wasn't until I heard the symphony live for the first time that it even dawned on me that the piece could come off badly. The classic recordings made it seem inevitable. As a native Pittsburgher, I'm proud to have the Honeck recording rated so high - deservedly so. I agree with pretty much all of your picks though I might have added Walter and Bernstein, too. Thanks for a great talk!
I grew up with Toscanini. Maybe this is why I never felt strongly about the problems that David highlights in the interesting introductory talk. I also enjoyed Furtwanglers way of leading back into the recapitulation.
My very first recording was one on audio cassette with Marriner and the Academy of St Martin-in-the-Fields. Don't like it now as much as some buys later on in life but it was my first one as a teenager. I played the tape over and over again. Later on in my very first car. It kept my hunger going to buy other versions and as a teenager it kept me going as well. Together with Fricsay's 9th and Asjkenazi's 5th. You are right, Dave, the music needs to be played. Period.
David, i took your advice and checked out the kletzki and Klemperer Stereo was my go to along with Szell but man is this an immensely soulful, spiritual, intensely dedicated , and superbly played version. absolutely superb and one of the greatest and now in my top 3. thank you for the recommendation.
First time I have heard the Eroica Symphony comparted to the New Jersey Turnpike. We garden staters should be proud that only we have traffic patterns sufficiently tumultuous to properly convey the inner turmoil of the young conqueror, as well as the overriding chaos of a continent at total war!
I agree with what you’re saying here, it’s so interesting to hear about the reaction of people in Beethoven’s day. But we’re not in Beethoven’s day, so we shouldn’t tell people they need to react the same way. A beautiful piece even all these years later, but it hits our ears differently from his contemporaries.
@@DavesClassicalGuide From a Snoopy line in an old Peanuts Sunday comic strip: Josephine's advice when her husband departs for Waterloo: "Don't get blown apart, Bonaparte".
Thank you for a common sense talk on my personal favorite symphony. I had read discussions of those moments on either side of the return of the main theme of first movement, and wondered if my ear just wasn’t sensitive enough for them to have a big impression on me. But now I know I’m not alone. I agree with the comments that the symphony actually works _because_ the end of the symphony has a different feel from the beginning. The Schubert B flat piano sonata is another piece like that. Some people tie themselves in knots trying to relate the beginning to the end, but I think a good performance delivers each part for what it is, and it all works out.
I'm still so thrilled that we finally got to hear your take on the Eroica. Knowing that you have mixed feelings about it, I was afraid after the longish gap after your talk on the Fourth that you would skip it. As for the recordings, can you respond to why you prefer the Toscanini '53 to the more celebrated '39 (decrackled and dehissed on Naxos). By the way, you are my favorite RU-vid star. You outshine all of the board game review guys and many of them are fabulous.
Thanks very much. I frankly go for the better sonics in '53 (even if '39 is decrackled), and I think the performance has superior energy. I wouldn't say "39 is "celebrated" preferentially in any especially meaningful way,
I think you've come up with a very good list of Eroicas. I am familiar with six of your twelve or so recommendations, and agree that all of them are top notch (Toscanini, Klemperer, Szell, Honeck, Kletzki and Scherchen). I can think of only one other I might suggest: Bernstein/NY Phil. I especially appreciate your inclusion of the Scherchen. It's been in my collection for over 40 years now (starting with a Westminster Gold budget LP), and I still play it at least a couple of times a year. It's not pretty, but it is pretty amazing. Finally, I wonder if you have an opinion on the Jordi Saval Beethoven set that came out last year (Symphonies 1-5).
a couple of trivia items: 1. Jarvi's Bremen orchestra uses valveless Bach-type long trumpets apparent in the video versions of the Beethoven symphonies. Everything else seems to be standard issue modern instruments. 2. Years ago, rumor had it that the Vienna State Opera Orchestra was the name slapped onto recordings of the Vienna Philharmonic when the conductor was deemed of lesser fame or talent. don't know if this is true or not I do know that the orchestra's by-laws state that a musician must play in the opera orchestra for 3 years before trying out for the Philharmonic, though there may be exceptions. Therefore, in theory, all members of the Philharmonic are (were) members of the opera orchestra, though all members of the opera orchestra are NOT members of the Philharmonic. (Whew!)
David, I’m a recent subscriber and enjoy your channel very much. I’ve been listening to classical music since my Introduction to Classical Music course in March, 1987, …….for 34.5 years. I remember the first time I heard parts of Beethoven’s Eroica symphony and loved it! In the early 90s I reserved a copy of Eroica from the local library, performed by London Classical Players & Roger Norrington. I was intrigued by the fact that it was an HIP performance. I also listened to their disc of Beethoven’s symphonies 1 & 6. I still remember how underwhelming those performances were to my ears. I kept thinking, “Was this close to how these symphonies sounded in Beethoven’s day?”, and, “This sounds nothing like the beautiful Eroica I heard in class.” From memory, I’ll tell you the playing seemed good at times, but the sound of the orchestra was thin and lacking. It really was noticeable to this novice’s ears 30 years ago, especially for the Pastoral & Eroica symphonies. I thought that surely Beethoven would expect more passion in his musicians! I knew there had to be better HIP performances. It was quite a while before I listened to any more HIP performances, thanks to Norrington. I was very unimpressed. I like Szell’s Eroica with the Cleveland Orchestra, & Walter’s with the Columbia Symphony in stereo. It’s great to have so many other performances that you recommend. I’ve listened to samples of Savall’s Eroica with Le Concert des Nations (and samples from LvB sym #1, 2, 4, 5) I really like how the timpanist can be heard, compared to other performances where they are hardly audible. I’ll be awaiting your review of the Savall performances. Thank you!
Great talk, Dave. And looking forward to your review of the new Orpheus Chamber box. Mine arrived today! On the Eroica, or indeed on any piece of music…..if we all agreed exactly what was great and what wasn’t everyone would write the same pieces eventually. Of course that’s ridiculous and I celebrate the different views because then we get different music and different interpretations. The biggest issue with the Eroica is that it’s set up to fail by being talked up so much. So many conductors seem to try to prove there is more than we mere mortals could ever dig out. Frankly they just need to play the effing music.
Alan McGinn I started with the Bartok on the first disc. It’s unbelievable just how tight the ensemble is. I wonder if the lack of conductor might mean they have to sacrifice flexibility in some of the bigger works - I’ll be curious to see what they do in the Vaughan Williams and Mendelssohn - but let’s see!
@@nickhamshaw1234 I have go this date very little OCO and I am exited for the box to fill a void in my collection. What I have heard thus far has impressed me a lot. I have their Rossini overtures which are just fabulous.
I didn't understand why I liked the Eroica less than the 5, 6, 7 and 9 when it has an incredible aura. Beethoven himself considered it his best symphony (until the 9th). Your explanations made me understand.
Beethoven considered it his favorite. "Best" is a meaningless term in this context. Nor is Beethoven's own opinion terribly relevant. He had his own reasons which may or may not have had anything to do with the music as such.
What a fine survey. Still my favorite symphony after decades, since I was a kid and thought it was the 'Erotica.' My one quarrel with Furtwangler is the scherzo is just too damn slow. It should be a joyous bubbling fountain of life, not a slow trickle.
the E/F dissonance in that development of the 1st movement is such an amazingly ferocious sound in the Furtwangler one I have (old EMI pressing) but the rest of it is just annoying to me. Thanks for putting a spotlight on Kletzki who sounds very fresh and "modern" in a sense.
Erich Kleiber did record it twice, once in Amsterdam and once in Vienna (1953). I slightly prefer the Vienna performance, but the Amsterdam has better recorded sound. I agree 100% about the 1953 Toscanini, one of his greatest achievements. Ditto, the 1944 Furtwängler, the polar opposite of Toscanini, but compelling nevertheless. I had not heard the Szell, and by the time I got to the final coda, I was on the floor. What a KNOCKOUT of a performance! When Szell was good, he was very, VERY good!
There's a story that somebody said to Klemperer that Szell was a "machine." Klemperer responded "Yes, but he is a _very good_ machine!" I've been reading about Szell, and the thing I respect is that, though he could be a repellent bully, the musicians (at least in Cleveland) recognized his selfless dedication to the music. No scarfs for George Szell, and no machine could have conducted his amazing Wagner and that utterly extraordinary Sibelius 2nd in Tokyo, fighting against the bone cancer that was killing him.
Dave-Koussevitsky and the Boston Symphony Orchestra did an exciting recording of the Eroica around 1945, I think. I thought that the last movement was exciting, because I knew that it was going to be an exciting ending. which it was. I like the beginning of the symphony. What do you think of that recording?
I think the Eroica is a great symphony for the very things you find problematic! After the first two lengthy movements and in the case of the second being so dark, you need some release-something lighter and the wonderful Scherzo and the finale provide just that. Agree that Beethoven had trouble ending the work. Those last two chords do not sound “final,” but the coda is otherwise exhilarating. Szell’s account is unbeatable, but some others you didn’t mention are also favorites of mine: for a modern account terrifically played and recorded I choose Vanska/Minneapolis (before he became so microscopic); among older and more traditional ones I like Schmidt-Isserstedt’s with the Vienna Phil coupled with Szell’s Egmont excerpts on a cheap Decca Weekend CD that I fear is no longer available. As to HIP I’d still go with Gardiner because his comes across with real enthusiasm as does the accompanying Fifth.
Yes, it IS a special symphony. Yes, it IS difficult. But these are not aesthetical categories at all. Yes, the funeral march tells about the body's decomposition to the atomic level. Yes, it is very dark. Still, this is not an aesthetical category again. If you want to get the whole symphony in a linear timeline, you can consider as the hero's life, his death, and his afterlife in commemoration. But I personally do not think that even this time-linearity is necessary or, being honest, has anything to do with this symphony. :)
I remember hearing the Eroica for the first time many years ago and feeling so unimpressed about it. I don't even remember which recording it was. What I do remember is thinking how disjointed it was. It really felt like a lot of "cutting and pasting" was going on. I also remember hearing the Fourth shortly afterward and being totally wowed by it. I felt it to be a more cohesive and flowing work than the third. I have since grown to love the Eroica. If anything, your review and your point about this symphony being about a "personality" in the universal sense, seems to reinforce the complexity and "disjointed" nature of human emotion. I wonder if that was Beethoven's intention all along??? Let's face face it, I would argue my life is more akin to the themes of this symphony than to his ninth...
Dave, wondering what you think about the Celibidache version on EMI (Munich, 1987). It's a very polarizing interpretation. My brain says that Beethoven would have been throwing things at Sergiu, and I know that some of the tempi are remarkably slow (Funeral March = 19:15?) but I can't help but love the overwhelming sonority of this performance. Should I seek counseling?
@@DavesClassicalGuide If yyou want to listen to Beethoven choose another version. I you want to listen to Celibidache it is OKay. But forgot Beethoven!!!
Many years ago, when I was becoming acquainted with the Beethoven symphonies, I bought a recording of the Eroica by Karl Bohm with the Vienna Philharmonic. It was stodgy, dull, and rather boring. My current favorite recording is by Christoph von Dohnányi. It's dramatically different--fleet and exciting while losing no drama. I love it. And I love the symphony. I think it's right up there with the higher odd numbered symphonies. I do find it incongruous that you critique it for not following the classical form while saying it's not revolutionary.
Thanks! I loved this work and over the course of 1996 bought the score and like 20 different versions on CD (from Tower Records in Lincoln center lol).... was dissatisfied with all of them. They all seemed sounded very similar and ranged from meh to outright pedestrian. (the only one of those on your list was Szell, and a brief relisten confirmed its place there, at least for me. I did not like whichever Furtwangler I bought but I'm fascinated to try out the one you recommended). I booted the Kleiber VPO recording from one of my dad's LPs on a really scratchy phography to cassette and that was my pick for a long time (liked that better even when the RCBO recording was reissued on CD, don't really know why. Now's a good time to listen and reevaulate :) ) For some reason I didn't buy Toscanini until like 3 years later and it really scratched my itch. After watching this ,I relistened to it and for me it's still *the* Eroica. All that said, beyond those mentioned, I haven't heard your recommendations and am looking forward to surveying this great work again. :) I'll buy your argument that it's hard to play (and will either be great, ho hum, or bad) - and will definitely agree that the voluminous popular writings on it don't really tell you anything. (it's a milestone in musicological history and I'd imagine the academic stuff is solid..... to bad I can't understand any of it lol)
For me, all four movements are boldly dramatic and very memorable. And that's enough: it has melody, drama and power. I like Toscanini in this, brisk and muscular like a great fighter, fit and fast. Not going to mention the performances that send me to sleep. Perhaps it's radical in the sense of what went before it in the literature? Can't imagine Haydn or Mozart writing anything like this. A terrible bore when played too slow by somebody who can't keep the rhythm. Furtwangler could do it slowly but still keep momentum and rhythm. Know you don't like WF, but I'm saying it anyway. Wand's later version is just about perfect but emotionally dead to my ears.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Yes I watched it all the way through and appreciated your comments on the 1944 VPO third. So yes, I was wrong to express it the way I did.
Ach, Duved, you've just made me realize even more why I adore the Eroica (although I must admit, even to a HIP person like me, Schoonderwoerd has just gone off the cliff and crashed). I saw you pooh-poohed below the "BANG BANG" opening, but together with the following strings, it's an amazing feat, and the proof is in the variance in performance. I love comparing, time and again, the first 14 bars in different recordings. What might convince you to do a talk on the first bars of the Eroica?
The first movement opens a great hall of new musical possibilities and we are privileged to be able to relive that moment. I agree the assembly of the four movements is not a great success, but then once you leave the Haydn/Mozart proportions behind you are into uncharted territory; only Brahms recovers satisfying classical balance.
It was among Bartók's favourites. He told in the 1930s: I am still hearing Eroica with the same enthusiam as in my youth. His opinion can be a standard for us, too.
Unless I am mistaken David mentioning Scherchen recording: he recorded this work three times. Two with the Vienna State Opera Orchestra released on Westminster records in 1953 and 1958 respectively and one in 1965 (live performance) with the Italian-Swiss Radio Orch. The outstanding one is the earliest, the one in 1953 in mono. It is less erratic than the stereo and better played as well.
I've been assuming that the "premature" horn entry over the string tremolo is a Haydnesque joke about a player coming in at the wrong bar and becoming an accidental soloist. The way that the orchestra seemingly "reprimands" the horn player says to me that this has to be a comedy bit.
For the full comic effect, you need to hear Osmo Vanska's recording. He thinks pianissimo passages should be inaudible, so the string tremolos just aren't there. It sounds like the whole orchestra stopped, wants to start again, but nobody dares to jump back in except the horn player.
I thought it was humor too, and something a bit similar is in in the middle of the 4th movement in the Fourth Symphony, when the full orchestra bouncing & bustling quiet downs temporarily, but a solo bassoon 'jumps the gun' and the whole orchestra joins in again
hello David! i have paul Kletzki 1 and 5 from orquestre Baden Baden and no 6 from Kletzki and orquestre national de paris. do you like/recomend those? i have in vinyl. i got it from a colection from an old man. in the collection there are the 3d from giulini Los angeles and Bruno Walter. just heard the first 2 moovements of guilini. it's astonishingly slow, at least the 1st moovement. but i kind of like it. it's very well articulated so you still feel it mooving forward. and as it is slow you can easily follow all the ideas and their interaction with eachother.I did not hear yet walter but looking forward!! thanks for the great talk!!
Several years ago. EMI purchased underwriting on NPR's Morning Edition and All Things Considered to promote a new CD by the Eroica Trio. Many local NPR stations simply used the underwriting credits as fed to them by NPR, but some had one of their own announcers read them. Well, word must have gotten back to NPR that some of the local folks were getting them *slightly* wrong. So NPR sent out an advisory to its member stations: "In credit number (whatever), it's 'Eroica' -- not 'Erotica.'"
Yeah, I tend to agree that the Eroica has structural problems - being that after the monumental first and second movements, the final two movements feel a bit fluffy and anti-climactic. I have the same issue with Bruckner's 7th (which is still one of my faves, mind you). BUUUT: a great performance can pull it all together. I mean, I still love all the movements separately!
I had the Furtwangler's Eroica in false stereo , (Breitklang) and I hate it so much. (It was a Emi Japanese edition which I thought should be great) The stereo image, changes the place of the instruments all the time, and the sound was foggy, muddy Yeark!!! I resell it easily , and bought a mono one, on Tahra. Now I can hear the music with more details. Never mind stereo...BTW, the Furtwangler Cd cover you shows is from which label.
Was there any musical precedent for those two assertive initial notes? If there was I'm not aware of any, though you, if anybody, might come up with one. I detect a similar call to attention at the start of Nielsen's 3rd Symphony.
There were plenty of arresting openings, if not identical ones (think of several of Haydn's "London" Symphonies). I don't find that gesture particularly special. It was, apparently, an afterthought.
The first movement of Nielsen's 3rd has always reminded me of the Eroica -- not just in the "call to attention" opening but in the sheer level of energy and the complex shifting rhythms/accents. The similarity to me is more in the emotional effect than in the themes or the compositional technique. Another less positive similarity is that like the Eroica, the Espansiva has two highly original movements followed by two that simply aren't on the same level. I still love both of these works, however.
just bought the honeck and jarvi and 1953 toscanini (i LOVE the 1939) and szell... listened to the szell last movement coda on youtube, YOWZA... my favorite has always been vienna-e.kleiber and concertgebouw-e.kleiber, but i really love the giulini and wish you'd given it a mention...
Not revolutionary? It represented a seismic shift in how a composer could approach the symphony. And it's still thrilling. It's insane to compare the Third to what came after it, in terms of it being revolutionary, seeing as what came after it came about BECAUSE of the Third.
I have a lot of time for Cluyten's BPO Eroica - it's an interpretation which has grandeur and power (the pile up point in the first movement, and the climax of the funeral march for example are stunning) but it never gets stodgy basically because of the particularly intelligent use of rubato throughout. Great stuff and far better any of Karajan's versions!
The Eroica Boring? I've heard boring recordings and performances, but the work itself it thrilling, as most of the choices here prove. The best performance I've ever heard was Neeme Jarvi of all people in Detroit. Exciting, deep, humorous and thrilling. But for big-orchestra thrills, it's Rene Leibowitz with the Royal Philharmonic.
Hi David, While I was doing errands today I was listening to #3 in my car. It was Karajan w/ the Berlin Philharmonic. I didn’t hear the whole of it, but what I did hear sounded quite good. You must not be thrilled with it. Perhaps what I didn’t hear was lackluster or bothersome? Your thoughts please. Of course, I’ll be checking out your recommendations.
Horenstein may have been really bad, but did he play every single chord as arpeggios - including the opening of the symphony - like François-Xavier Roth did recently?
David, your Unlocking Masters book is a terrific look at the points you bring up here. However, I was hoping you'd touch on the "controversy" about what constitutes the 2nd theme in the Exposition. Is it a 1st theme followed by 3 (or 2) transitional themes then the 2nd theme comes? Or are they 3 complete separate themes? I've heard it debated so many ways. And it's interesting how conductors emphasize different elements.
They aren't "themes" in sonata form, they are "subects" defined by the keys they inhabit, and a subject can have any number of themes or motives. The transitional material (as here) may contain memorable themes as important as any in the true first or second subjects.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Thanks for the clarification! :) I should've said the controversy regarding what is the Second SUBJECT. There's a lot of disagreement about it. (Some say the so-called "transitional themes" make up the Second Subject and the rest is an extension. And others say the Second Subject occurs later). Did you ever settle it to your satisfaction? Must be a big deal for conductors since it affects how they approach the piece, what to give weight to, etc.
@@NN-df7hl Actually I don't think it's a big deal at all. More like a musicological waste of time. Beethoven had no idea what a "second subject" was. He had no idea what "sonata form" was. He just wrote music.
I remember attending a memorable Tennstedt Eroica in London in the 1980s and the orchestra was huge (8 horns from memory). There's a Salzburg 1982 recording he made with the Vienna Philharmonic floating around (mine's on the Altus label) which is perhaps a bit too grand for its own good.
David, could you explain, if you haven’t already, what a “period style” on modern instruments consists of? Does it boil down to tempi, vibrato and strict reading of the score markings?
It amuses me how "Bonaparte" actually can be translated as the "good part" (duh) - one can really go off on a tangent about the presence of the good and not-so-good within real - and generalized - human beings. And how that is expressed in the music. :))) Does any biographer say whether Beethoven knew of such a rhetoric tool as "pun"? :) Some of the man's musical works would seem to attest to his peculiar (sometimes somber) sense of humor ("Muss es sein?", "Allegro assai vivace ma serioso", "Rage over a Lost Penny", etc.)
I used to have an LP of the Eroica with the Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra conducted by Michael Gielen. It was played at or close to the metronome markings. Unlike Scherchen's version, the Gielen recording was played quite well technically, but it really lacked as far as impact - it just wasn't rhetorical enough.
I remember picking this recording up many years ago in a cardboard Vox version for $1 new. I thought it was a solid recording. Gielen is usually a reliable conductor.
Maybe someone else already said this, but Leonard Bernstein (another Louis B, a coincidence??) made a very nice recording explaining how Beethoven structured his symphony and elaborated his themes. It was paired with a "Stadium Concerts Symphony Orchestra" (NYPO) recording and later reissued by Sony along with the "real" NYPO version. What I like most about the symphony are Beethoven's structural creativity and the wide emotional range he achieved.
