many were not qualified to begin with and if they fall, what makes them qualified to continue? its a church scan lie. befoer their fall, the made the distinction between them and the layperson, After they fall, the want to erase the distinction and become one of the guys among the laypeople in saying they can be restored while everyone looking at themselves agree. but he is was a pastor not a layperson....big difference/
Yes they do. I wasn't qualified to talk about breast cancer until my wife had it and came through, praise God. Now that she is through I am qualified. However, in 40 years I will be less qualified as I won't necessarily remember the hard days and there will be new things like treatments or surgeries available that I want be able to speak to. If a pastor is qualified to be a pastor and then falls for any reason he has lost credibility. That doesn't mean that he cannot regain it, but God takes away as well as gives. Perhaps there is a season that a person needs to go through to learn and be better equipped. Whatever the case may be, qualifications absolutely can change.
There is a vast difference between being forgiven and being trusted. Forgiveness is based on the blood of Christ and can be granted and received instantaneously upon genuine repentance. But being trusted is based not merely on the blood of Christ; it is based also on proven trustworthiness in life.
What people forget is that 1 Tim 3:2 has other qualifications these pastors must also keep. However, when they fall they also have lost self control, lived unwisely, and lost their reputation. If the sin was sexual they would have also been unfaithful to their wife. They can be forgiven and gave grace nd still be saved but you can not restore reputation among the congregation because trust have been lost, i=even if it is just for one.
Well the standards have been lowered in church today regarding who can lead the church. In scripture you had to be qualified to lead, today gifts talents and family are leading the church
Some counseling professionals suggest pastors spend a decade away from the pulpit or a position of power/influence to focus on accountability counseling and whatnot. The lure of power and influence is too strong to let go, even after committing a grievous mistake.
When these famous high powered pastors fall, they want a one or two year restoration. They take it as a vacation or a sabbatical to then be restored and retake control to what they built and created. They are in it for self while the stupid's are out supporting them,
In my opinion, that depends on the nature of the sin. Now if the sin is adultery, then I think that is permanent disqualification from pastoral ministry. And that’s not because he can’t be forgiven (which he can be forgiven), but because it’s a trust issue. Just my thoughts on this
I want to first say I’ve also liked Pastor Tony Evans and just on the surface he seems like a nice person. But when I think of a doctor that takes the oath to do no harm. I’ve seen some doctors who have done so much harm that his license as a doctor has now been revoked. Does that mean suddenly he no longer has the knowledge of a doctor? No. Has Pastor Tony Evans been placed on suspension or is he being revoked. Which ever it is I pray for him going forward in life🙏
Servus Christi makes a solid argument that there is no such thing as pastors that we have seen in the institutional traditional churches for centuries…and I would have to agree with him.
Adultery after conversion is sinning against the glory of the light of Christ. Before conversion, we were all in spiritual darkness; we were acting according to our nature. And when a pastor commits adultery - a pastor now, not just a believer - he’s sinning not only against God, not only against his wife, not only against the light of the biblical witness of the new creation in Christ;
I certainly believe Christ forgives adultery. But from reading the passages on church leaders in the Pastoral Epistles, I don’t see how it could be God’s will for him to continue pastoring
You are teaching error if you think you can restore the status of being above reproached. This is not in reference of your past before leadership but does include your past while in leadership. Moses is the example, you are in error again
@@smartchristians The same scripture used to qualify as an elder - 1 Tim 3:2. Once a leader falls, he disqualify himself totally because he would have lost sefl-control, lived unwisely, lost his reputation and if it was a sexual sin, he would have no longer been faithful to his wife. In addition, most sins leaders fall into are things that have been manifested for a long while before coming to the open and rarely a one time incident at the moment. Which means they have been living unwisely, living with no self control, and definitely not qualifying to be above reproach. It only when they have been discovered or it came our in the open, they they lost their reputation. To be above reproach is exactly what it means. Once you fall while in church leadership, there is no gaining the above reproach status. These people are more interested in retaining the control of their pastoralship to keep hold of the ministry. It is a self centered desire and not a G-dly desire. Any true believer that falls would not want to continue in their position due to bringing shame to the Gospel, the church and themselves. Those who want to return have no shame. They no longer Qualify for anything mentioned in 1 Tim 3:2 with exception of those who support them in making an excuse for them. This is the error that you are teaching. Moses was an example. Moses did not break the law given to Israel but sinned against G-d. Moses continued to receive grace and forgiveness but his leadership position was removed and given to Joshua. This had nothing to do with Moses living under the law. Two different things.
Instead of Eli stopping his sons from their evil at once, Eli merely rebuked them. The Lord God expected Eli to restrain his sons. Though Eli knew his sons as priests had treated the offering of the Lord with contempt and had immoral affairs with women, he didn’t really do anything that would have made an effective stop to their wickedness. As High Priest, he could have removed them from their positions. A-“Thus the sin of the young men was very great in the sight of the Lord, for the men treated the offering of the Lord with contempt” (1 Samuel 2: 17). B- “Now Elie [Eli] was very old, and he kept hearing all that his sons were doing to all Israel, and how they lay with the women who were serving at the entrance to the tent of meeting. And he said to them, ‘Why do you do such things? For I hear of your evil dealings from all these people. No, my sons; it is no good report that I hear the people of the Lord spreading abroad. If someone sins against a man, God will mediate for him, but if someone sins against the Lord, who can intercede for him?’ But they would not listen to the voice of their father…. (1 Samuel 2: 22-25). Eli and his sons were priests. Because Eli did not remove his sons from their positions, there were grave consequences. King David although a king, was not a priest/pastor, even if he was a prophet of sorts. However, after he sinned, although forgiven, he was no allowed to build the Holy Temple, as he was disqualified from doing so, because he had "blood on his hands" and that task went to his son, King Solomon. There is a difference between a king and a priest/pastor. When Moses struck the rock twice, because of his anger, he was forbidden to go into the Promised Land, although he was allowed to view it from the mountain, before he passed away.
@@smartchristians the same scripture you used for the qualifications of elders in 1Timothy 3:2… what other scripture is there to give. Requiring to be above reproach means exactly what it says. Once you fall as a church leader, you have lost the status of “above reproach”. Also remember that when the fall into sun, they also no longer qualify because they also lost the rest of the qualifications which is losing self control, living unwisely and if sun is sexual, they became unfaithful to their wife. When they are discovered or self admitted to sin, they lost their reputation before all. Moses was the example. He was under the law but his sun was not concerning the law but disobedience to a command aside from that law given to Israel. Moses did not plead to be restored but accepted his judgement. Unlike these wolves today wanting to keep their position for self control after a 1 year restoration process, which is taken as a Sabbatical vacation. Dont be deceived. These guys are not called of G-d
I don’t agree with Corey. What the Bible is saying is that you must be those things before becoming a pastor. You can’t drive a car before you learn to do so and get a drivers license or be an architect if you don’t go to college and get a degree. No one is going to give you a car to drive knowing you don’t know how to drive, even less if you don’t have a drivers license unless they are out of their mind. Same as the architect example. Who’s going to give you a chance to make blueprints for a building and build it without an architectural degree and the proper licenses from the state. 1 Timothy 3 says “if one aspires to the office of overseer” means that if you want to be a pastor you have to have those qualifications before you become a one. You have to cultivate those before you become a pastor. Then if the elders see that you have what it takes by the Scriptures they can appoint you to the office. It also says in the same passage you have to be “above reproach” so that no one can point at you and use your sin as an excuse to smear the church of Christ. 1Ti 3:7 Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil. The reputation of a pastor is called upon again in this other verse. Why is that so important? This is a quote from John Gill Bible Commentary referring to the previous verse: “lest Satan should take encouragement from hence to tempt him to other and greater sins; or lest finding himself slighted and despised by the people of God, because of his former sins, he should break out into anger and revenge against them; or into despondency and despair in himself; or should be negligent of his duty, and timorous of exhorting and reproving others, lest they should retort upon him, and reproach him with his former crimes.” Many pastors from the past and present times sinned and then came back to the same or worst. Jimmy Swaggart for sexual sin caught again after being “restored” to ministry. Eventually he went into rebellion and started his own “ministry”. Jim Bakker had a sex scandal for alleged rape. Then stole money that he collected to build a resort or something like that for Christians and went to jail for 8 years. Supposedly he repented and came back after being released. He started another “ministry” selling “end of days survival kits” and end days prophecies. He is a convicted felon and a con man that goes around to making easy money using the Scriptures as an excuse. Carl Lentz sex scandal. Hillsong Australia founder (already deceased) sex scandals and his son and successor Brian Houston, being criminally charged for concealing his father’s sexual sins. Later he had to step down as a pastor after he was found to have breached the moral code of the church in his behaviour with two women. When a so called pastor or someone who really was one sins in a way that brings shame to the name of God, his family and the church he can be restored to the body of Christ but not to the ministry. There’s going to be too much baggage on him to be criticized and even manipulated for his past. The Lord Jesus said that in the law if you lay with a woman other than your wife, that’s adultery but he raised the bar higher by saying that if you desire that woman in your heart under the grace that becomes adultery even if you didn’t lay with her. Same with ministry. No excuses here. Going back to first two examples you can lose your drivers license permanently in North Carolina for a DUI if caught three times or more. You can also lose your license as an architect and go to jail if a building you raised crumbles down. Same a teacher, a lawyer and most professions. That according to human law. If you brake God’s commandments as a minister you lose your credentials too. That’s why it’s written in the Bible with the proper warnings. That’s why I don’t agree with Corey.
His whole bent should be toward winning it by an absolutely trustworthy behavior that goes the extra mile to demonstrate his self-control; his radical devotion to Jesus; his willingness to gouge out his eye rather than lust; and his deep, heartfelt commitment to his marriage vows and his wife - no matter what. 3. Grasp the depth
Do pastors realize how disgusted parishioners are with all this mess. It’s getting harder to get unchurched folks to come to church with all the chaos going on . I’m 70 and we are at a race to the bottom
Adultery committed against one’s wife is just about as bad a blow against a man’s trustworthiness as could be delivered. She may - I pray she would - have the grace to forgive him if he is repentant. But the restoration of trust - with her, with others, with a church - may take years. And he should be in no hurry to expect it or demand it.
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What about all the other people affected by this sin? It's a sexual sin and is one of the worst. But when a person is supposed to be a man of God, it's 10 fold.
I agree and for sexual misconduct against a spouse, I don't think they qualify to ever be restored to the same position, again. It's called consequences. Sure, they can be forgiven, if they repent, of course. But that doesn't necessarily mean that they should be pastoring. They need to humble themselves and do something else, focus on their wife, their family...serve the community. But I guess that's just too much for some.
Once someone is ordained they can not be unordained. So once ordained, always ordained. For ordained people who have embraced heresy or committed another disqualifying action process is laicization (also know as defrocking). While still ordained the person is not permitted to perform the actions of their ordination. The issue is that some "pastors" have setup churches where they are a law unto themselves and there is no authority above them to impose laicization. As with any real corrective action, the goal of laicization in to bring the person back into the fold and have them resume the duties of their ordination, but the onus in on the person to change.
Actually the Bible do talk about it to be a pastor you got to have a good report. So if you have a person that was a pastor then he stepped down because of sin he no longer can be a pastor because now he have a bad report instead of a good report.
@@JuniorTLafaille But all it depends on why they're no longer a Pastor. If they just needed a mental break, then that could be any of us. What if they realize they simply having been putting in the work, effort, and research they once did? That can be fixed. Even if they sinned, most of us and most of the preachers in the Bible sinned at some point. Nowhere is the Bible does it say you can no longer teach once you sin. Now if we're talking about someone who was a phony Preacher their sin was illegal or something that was ongoing or a life-style, that's different.
Once disqualified, I dont believe a pastor is “above reproach” anymore; disqualifying sins in the past sadly make someone able to be reproached in the present.
Adultery, and other sins committed after one’s conversion and well into one’s Christian life, are more serious indications of unfitness for ministry than our sins prior to the new birth and the new creation in Christ.
@smartchristians Hi Corey. You pointed out that, in order to be a pastor the person should be “above reproach (1 Tim. 3:2)”. Then you said that the pastor should be above reproach “FROM THE CHURCH.” When you say, “above reproach FROM THE CHURCH”, it seems like you mean “the whole church (including laymen)” as opposed to “the leadership of the church”. I dont know what the correct answer is, but I was thinking about it, and I would think that the pastor must be above reproach from the leadership of the church as opposed to the whole church (laymen). If the answer is that the pastor must be above reproach “FROM THE WHOLE CHURCH (including laymen)”, then would Tony Evans be out of order? Because he hasn't told “the whole church” what the sin that caused his reproach is. So how is the body supposed to know if Tony is above reproach if we dont know what he did? I’m assuming that the leadership of Tony’s church knows what he did so it makes sense that Tony should be above reproach from the leadership of the church as opposed to the whole church.
Paul clearly states in Rom 6 being buried with Christ and dead with Christ is equal to a believer being dead to sin therefore chapter 7 was referring to before Paul became born again. He is explaining his carnal state under the the Law in trespasses and sin. Please note from chapter 6 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. Note Apostles Paul language 17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Note were (pass tense). he now is dead with Christ once he repented and had faith towards Jesus as his saviour and Lord. When in Christ sin no longer has the dominion note the Apostles states 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. Roman 6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. 15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. 19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. 20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. 21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. 22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. sure the apostles Paul had to bring his body into subjection like we all must, but we only have to look at many of the things he went through to see how zealous and possessed he was for the Christ
Church people are the same as people who attend church- until they decide to dedicated. Then they begin to serve the body. This man is our brother and we are to pray for him as he takes care of whatever it is. As long as it’s “was”- I’m thinking he’s going to follow the Lord’s plan about what happens next. So sad. Pray pray for us all. We need our leaders- this should bring everyone to the altar…
Does a father ever stop being a father? A brother ever stop being a brother? What are the functions of a father? "Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren" ~1Timothy 5:1KJV
1 Timothy 5:19-21 - Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses. 20 But those elders who are sinning you are to reprove before everyone, so that the others may take warning. 21 I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, to keep these instructions without partiality, and to do nothing out of favoritism. You gotta read it all the way through. A father does not stop being a father. But a pastor can stop being a pastor according to the Bible. A pastor, who is a father cannot stop being a father. But he can definitely stop being a pastor. There is a difference. Even elders are subject to rebuke. If there is no law then there is no justice and God Almighty is a fair God of justice. Pastors MUST be above reproach. Much love.
Adultery committed after conversion is a sin not only against a wife and against God, but against our new nature and against the indwelling Holy Spirit and against the whole drift of Scripture in describing the new person as a new creation in Christ.
No. But the speculation here is that there “could have been relations” before wife died. I am only speaking of what is being talked about in no way do I condone what is being said, or the situation. But “if” this was the case,he would be disqualified for being a pastor.
Ministry has different levels and callings. To say a pastor who has served for let's say 50 years can't retire and move to another area of ministry is not true.
Once you compromise your status "above reproached" you are no loner "above reproached: So there is no coming back. Moses proved this ;point when he sinned. He was no longer qualified to enter the promised land, regardless of repentance. the biggest SCAM is having the congregational masses to believe you can return as a pastor. The bible clearly teaches that. Being above reproach means exactly that,,,,Once you are no longer above reproach, you can not restore that.
Moses was under the law and not under grace. Yes, there are no perfect people. Remember Peter when he denied the Lord Jesus Christ but was restored back to fellowship with him. Professor Yecats!
By the same example, Peter should have been disqualified as an apostle for his betrayal of Christ- but we know he was restored, by Christ Himself no less. Again, his hypocrisy with the Jews should have been grounds for dismissal since he was leading even Barnabas astray. But he wasn’t. Paul, who wrote the pastoral epistles himself was at fault in several ways, not the least of which was causing division between him and Silas (or Barnabas I forget who) with John Mark. I agree that repeat offenders who show no signs of genuine repentance shouldn’t be allowed behind the pulpit again. Perhaps we could even say that churches should have a mandatory probation to test the authenticity of said repentance. However, to say that a pastor is FOREVER disqualified once he falls is a stretch.
@@bowtieprofessor2182 you are in error. There was nothing in the law concerning his situation, This has nothing to do with the law but disobedience. He fell short and sinned against G-d. Yet Moses did not even plead to be able to enter but simply accepted the fait because he knew his error. Pastors today when they sin and are discovered, are so shameless that they just want to be restored as if nothing happened or what happened was minor. However, when a pastor falls, he not only disqualify himself in no longer being above reproach but his sin has shown him to have lost all qualifications of 1 Tim 3:2 as well- They have lost self-control, they lived unwisely, they have lost their reputation before the congregation and no longer above reproach. If his sins was sexual, he would have also been living unfaithfully to his wife. Most sins are incidents replayed repeatedly over time until they are discovered or self confessing because the results will be worst later. Leaders will still be saved and have grace sins forgiven but their leadership has to be permanently removed because they no longer qualify under anything in 1 Tim 3:2 because they have broken them all. The same applied to Moses. For Moses, he did not break the law that was given to Israel but was disobedient to instruction given to him. Two different things. Moses received grace by G-d but his leadership was removed and given to JOSHUA.
I think that the present issue with Robert Morris resigning, answers the question as to how far back does the term Above Reproach means. For Robert Morris, it’s a problem that occurred 35 yrs ago before his ministry. If that is the case for Robert Morris, how much more serious for a sin that occurred 2-3 yrs ago while leading a church as a pastor? Obviously, the sin was not dealt with properly, which means it has been hidden while continuing to pastor while unqualified. There is no way around this Cory, regardless of how you may try to put it because you like him. And if you like him, then you disqualified yourself to teach anything concerning Toney Evan’s because you are compromised. Sorry my brother but you are wrong in every way on this one.
Let It go man! no wound can ever heal as long as you are constantly scratching and picking at it. You claim to be a mature christian, so let it go man!!
@@smartchristians If the question is asked can you sexually satisfy your girl and what does she thin; , will you answer that just because you were asked the question? You are just an immature christian bashing your brother; let it go dude!
