Bike industry can't hit some basic tolerances. Again! Kudos to Conti. Shows the ignorance of EL - adding tape still leaves the wall height issue, where the rim is blowing over. It's almost as if they don't understand.
Having tight tolerances where if you fall out of spec you have a potentially deadly mode of failure, is just a non acceptable system. Hookless tubeless if it doesn't fall to the UCI will fall to lawsuits in the US now that the catastrophic failure mode, with narrow tolerances and marketing at out of standard spec is in the spotlight. @PeakTorque
Oh they they can hit basic tolerances, problem is when you're talking about .5-1mm of tolerance, that's just far too small of a variance to make millions of tires. Need more safety margin for sure. Hooked tires for life.
I don't see a benefit of not having hooks. It's a safety critical interface. What can I gain by upping the odds of a tyre and rim not having such a strong joint?
Thanks for the update. Really respect Continental for really digging into what caused this. That is an amazing, detailed forensic analysis. They genuinely seem invested in their products. Hope you get a satisfactory resolution from Extralite. Also proves what muppets some internet "experts" are. Hope you get some apologies from them as well!
Well what do you expect really? Continental is a big multinational that has much more to lose from bad publicity that a small boutique wheels maker whose name today is Extralite, tomorrow-Shmectralite, the day after-who knows. BTW my first reaction upon seeing the original vid was: it is not the tires, it is the wheels.
@@tonyg3091Bbig companies are more reliables because they have more to lose? Interesting. Ahhhhh Shimano? Enron? The entire oil industry? Perdue Pharmacy? Goldman Sacks? Dozens of major banks and investment firms? Monsanto. I’ll stop. There’s not enough time left in my life to list them all.
Great report and great video! Also, not really surprising. As an automotive engineer myself, I expected nothing less from Continental. They do work in all kind of industries and they know what they are doing. On the other hand Extralite seems to be pretty inline with other companies in the cycling industry: utterly incompetent
What a completely pointless and illuminating situation. You said it, HOOKLESS IS A MINE FIELD. This is such a clear money grab "tech" for the manufacturers. There is absolutely NO REASON to chase some perceived performance gain at the cost of safety. How completely absurd, I'm shocked the dangerous product is even permissible for consumer sale.
Their solution is bonkers ... just build wheels to standards and ETRTO specs including pressure recommendations within specs and everything is fine instead of bodging wheels together to make things work.
Continental have confirmed in the lab these wheels are not fit for purpose. Not only should you get a rull refund, but that wheel manufacturer should recall their wheels, stop selling that model and redesign it to work with current tyres. If they don't, they are content to be criminally negligent in the aim of making profits. I'll never buy that brand now. Thank you for sharing.
Thank you for the detailed follow-up! This confirms again that tubeless and hookless rims are not suitable for road race wheels even though companies like Zipp and Cadex seem to be doing a better job because they can deliver tubeless wheels as a system (wheel+tire). As a consumer, I want flexibility and choice at a reasonable price and so getting locked into a particular vendor is not an option for me. The other issue with tubeless is that they're 40% heavier and far more expensive than equivalent clincher tires. For example, a pair of 700x28 GP 5000 with a 36g RideNow TPU tube weighs 220g less than a GP 5000 TRS setup. That's quite significantly given that rotating mass matters a lot at the wheels.
You seem to be conflating tubeless and hookless. Tubeless with hooked rims have been around a very long time (especially in MTB) and I don't ever recall hearing about a blow out.
I'm aware of the differences and maybe I didn't express myself clearly enough. And I also know many happy riders that are using tubeless on road wheels. For me personally, even if the hookless rim issues will be worked out over time, the weight penalty, higher price point and maintenance issues associated with going tubeless are not worth it for the type of riding I do. But I fully respect everyone's personal preference and trade-offs they're willing to make.
I use Zipp 404 Firecrest on my Pinarello & Cadex 65 on my Cannondale Systemsix. Both are hookless and I've never had a problem. I use Conti ASTR 5000's on the Pinarello and a Cadex Aero 25mm for the front with a Goodyear F1 28mm on the rear. I found the 25mm Goodyear on the front puncture way to easy. The Cadex has been bulletproof.
Was looking at Extralite rims but no longer! Their attitude is unacceptable and their hookless rims are not fit for purpose. Will continue sticking with hooked clinchers! Thanks for shining a light on this issue.
To be honest you should get a full refund for the wheels as they are not to spec, its quite shocking really. Hats of to Conti for everything they did great report they make you feel secure using their customers. I wonder if a certain youtube channel will try and make another video saying you had set it up wrong 😂
@CyclespeedTours I was thinking of the ETRTO and the wheels being sold as hookless, but if they are only guidelines perhaps they could get away with being out of the margin of error ?
@@tomrachellesfirstdance7843 The ETRTO guidelines do carry some weight, and it strikes me as very risky to sell a wheel outside of these specs. The margin of error in this case is 0.5mm but Extralite are outside of that.
I just commented 5 minutes ago on your first video, then I just saw this. Sorry. Interesting results from Continental. It confirms my experience with tubeless. You have know which tire and wheel combo's work and pay close attention to fit. If the tires go on easy, that's a red flag. That said, it's not for everyone. I'm a small rider so I've been lucky. If you're a bigger rider riding at higher pressures it could be challenging. Your conclusions about the industry are bang on. There needs to be a standard. Excellent pos with lots of learning for anyone considering these type of wheels. Cheers.
Very true, and if the bike owner is careful then should be no issues. But when these wheels start to filter down to the 2nd hand market to less serious riders, then I predict problems because they will just fit whatever tyre they have to hand, not realizing the various danger issues.
Thank you very much for sharing your experience man! I own a Giant TCR with hookless rims, I was very scared after your first video, now I feel more confident hoping Giant wheels are built better. Anyway I'm going to change wheels when I could afford the expense an going back to hooked rims for sure!
@@user-jr3hp9bd9h Are you confident in the accuracy of your pump? If you leave your bike in the sun how much psi will you gain? If you weigh 80kg+ on a 25mm tyre then 73psi is quite a low pressure.
You said dont go over 6 bar in your comment, but the standard says dont go over 5 bar…why would recommend to go over the standard after you alteady had a bad experience with hookless while within the 5 bar parameter? I dont understand?
Thanks for the update. Simply reconfirms the fact that hookless should be avoided. Imagine being leaned over on a road on the inside lane with traffic coming the other way. Not worth the risk…
Just tired to get a press fit replaced with a screw together (Wheel manufacturing) and found the press fit faces are not a proper size! Blinking Orro. Obly BB that will (hopefully) fit is an FSA and the old one only lasted 800 miles! The bike industry used to be a lot better. Modern bikes are so tempremental and so disposable. It's just pathetic.
How on earth does this point you to the problem being a spec? The manufacturer of the wheel is clearly not capable of making a hookless wheel. But that has nothing to do with hookless on the whole.
Wow shows the discrepancies in the tyres versus the rim. I always ride tubeless ready hooked wheels no rim tape needed (Dura Ace C36) I couldn’t even get the GP 5000 on my wheels so they lie in a pile way to stiff Cool Door Handle Too
With tubeless wheels, one just needs to know what they’re doing and stay clear from small manufacturers. The more users one has the higher the chances of finding mistakes. Simple as that. If theres a right wheel and right tire, tubeless beats any other tire in every way. I run Zipp 454’s and Roval CLX 64’s with 28mil conti tire and have had one flat in 5 years (around 12000km a year). Riding around 4.2bar is fast, comfortable and the grip in corners is off the charts.
A few years back I decided to try 115 PSI in my tyres on my lite road bike. This is a conventional wheelset tubes etc. I was going up a long steep hill near home when the front tyre jumped off the rim, the inner tube expanded out to around 2 foot in dia and exploded, all in a split second. I normally descend this hill at speeds approaching 45 mph. If the tyre had left the rim on the way down that hill, I doubt if I would be alive today. I have never raised my tyres above 80 PSI since. There are a load of innovations now in bike tech that I would not want, ever, some because they introduce complexity where there was simplicity and others due to the possibly fatal consequences of failure, such as carbon steerer's, handlebars etc.
Why do you reach that conclusion? A more correct answer is to buy wheels only from quality manufacturers. Don’t buy cheap Chinese wheels or stuff from niche manufacturers. The system is good if you know what you are doing, use the right wheels and the right tyres - maybe not for newbies, but experienced riders who take care of their equipment choices. Going back to tubulars cannot be the right answer - especially for newbies!!
@rosomak8244 nothing to do with money. Hookless combined with tubeless is a very good system if you choose the right wheels with the right tyres - system is lighter, more aero, allows lower tyre pressure, means you roll faster and more comfortably with no punctures and no roadside tube changing faff. It takes time though, there are certain techniques to installation to master and what to do when a puncture won't seal on its own, also what seslant to use is also critical. Its just like the endless silly rim / disc debate where some luddites cling to the old style rim brakes mainly because they haven't invested the time needed to properly understand how to live day to day with disc brakes.
@@CG-99 OK let's see, a) lighter - if so, the difference is really tiny, b) more aero - only if tyre perfectly matched to rim, just like any other setup, c) roll faster - depends on so many things, and all being equal, higher pressure = lower Crr. d) no punctures - I got a puncture which had trouble sealing in just the 300kms I used the rear wheel. Never would have happened with a tub (new tyre). I have reluctantly adopted disc brakes with all their foibles, but the difference is that a rubbing disc or lack of power won't kill you, a tyre blow off might.
Good follow up. Ive already commented on the other videos but this kind of thing makes me angry. It IS very difficult to get resin products to conform to exact tolerances, you need to pay close attention to temperature and cure times ( among a myriad of other factors). Knowing this, why in the world run with a design that requires such precise accuracy to function properly at all, with zero redundancy or safety built in to the design? Why reinvent the wheel? This is all done to save the manufacturers money with simpler, cheaper molds and shorter work times. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with improving the design or function of the rim. As an industrial and product designer I find this trend toward hookless nonsensical and, given the extremely high number of failures, unconscionable.
Re the proposed solution to add wraps: if you do that to put the effective bead seat diameter (BSD) within spec, you are also cutting into the G-height. That's the height of the rim sidewall above the bead seat. The nominal ETRTO specs are 6mm. Extralite already built the wheels to an apparent nominal dimension of 5mm. If you add 1mm of tubeless tape, you cut the effective G-height down to 4mm. I am not an engineer, but this does seem risky, considering that the consequence is the tire blowing off, possibly while in motion. Also, re Zipp's compatibility chart: by the current ETRTO standards, 28mm is also out of spec with 25mm internal width hookless. Now, ETRTO did allow companies to grandfather their wheels in, and I think this was provided they had explicitly tested for compatibility. That probably won't be allowed going forward; the official minimum is 29mm tires on 25mm hookless. However, basically nobody makes 29mm tires right now.
Surprise! Continental, the multinational juggernaut is the stand-up company and the boutique wheelset maker is selling shit out of spec. Shocker. Noticed a while ago that you pulled the original vid. Now we know why. Thanks for sharing. This kind of stuff is treacherous for us new peeps on the cycling scene.
more an MTB/gravel guy, but got a Simploin Kiaro (from 2013) "by accident" from a very good friend, who did not look into the specs (we both have 94.5 inner leg length, but I am 189, hes is 209 cm tall => the Kiaro has a very relaxed STR, which even with a very long stem made the bike useless to him), so have a road bike (again) - luckily, this one is fit with nice DTSwiss wheels with hooked carbon rims... I have been riding hookless/tubeless for ages on MTBs and gravel, but the high pressures needed for road bikes prevent me from using these options...
Great insight mate. You did everything by the book and unfortunately there are too many authors in the industry. I think you deserve an apology and at the same time some recognition for being transparent while being civil on this situation.
It was weird how many said it was the wrong tyre, wrong pressure, wrong time of the month, etc. without having even watched the whole video. I won't hold my breath for any apologies.....!
I apologise for suggesting that you shouldn’t fit less than 28mm tyres on hookless rims(which when you look at your own video is clearly shown on the compatibility chart), I stand by the fact that in over 2 years and 5000 miles I have had zero issues running 28mm Pirelli tyres on Zipp 303s wheels
@@allofuswoodhouses4284 thanks. Some hookless wheels are approved for 25 and 26mm tyres and some aren't, hence lots of confusion. I think 25mm hookless should just not exist, period.
going hookless for road wheels is crazy, I would have no peace of mind knowing the wheel could potentially blow off at any moment, if I was to do it I would pump the tire up 2--3 bar more then I intend to use and let it sit overnight at the very least
Well impressed with Conti. 😎👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻 So basically they’re saying as long as you use 28mm+ tyres and keep the pressures below 5bar (73.5 psi) we’re good to go? As an engineer I relish this sort of thing, I really do get it…but what about average non engineer Joe? Might be a bit to ask really, as you say considering the safety factors involved. Stick with what you know and understand.😎👍🏻 Absolutely love that door handle @ 10:41 awesome. 🤩 Blessings from Dorset. 🙏😎👍🏻
Thanks for this update. I wonder if measuring the circumference of the wheel (and calculating the diameter) wouldn't be a more meaningful way of assessing the fit between the tire and wheel?
Yes, and that's why the ERTRO exists to lay down those standard dimensions. But it seems that achieving them is not always so easy....and with hookless, and slight deviation from the correct spec can result in disaster. Non hookless and tubs are not so sensitive to anomalies.
There is no problem with Giant and cadex wheels. I use 19mm giant carbon hookless wheels with veloflex corsa race tires. Front wheel 5,7 bar rear 6,5 and it is perfect I even tested 7,5 bar without problems. Now I trust giant but you have to use tires approved by them. And veloflex corsa race 25mm tires are amazing much cheaper than conti gp5000 str but far better puncture resistance while not much worse rolling resistance.
Hookless has way smaller tolerance margin. Required a higher standard manufacturing process. Giant as an oem themselves has that kind of standard, never heard of any issue from slr or cadex. Smaller hookless wheel company probably having hard time to reach that standard since they are all outsourced and build by some other oem
As a top team tour mech I won't say who, either bad installation or a pay off I'm afraid, hookless are a crime, we do every wheel and tyre combo available we all agree hookless stinks it's not fair on people, good vid though well done you.
I'm surprised that pros so easily accept to go from tubs which have proven themselves over 50 years to a new tech that potentially opens the door to catastrophic failure.
@@CyclespeedTours hi yeah money I'm afraid, I've been meaning to come up to your shop I'm sure we will meet soon, I'll introduce myself looking forward to meeting you, cheers paul.
This is further evidence of hookless being crazy. Imagine the average starter cyclist understanding any of this. Tyres staying on the rims is about rule number 1 in cycling.
Great research by conti, shame on extralite, the ETRO specs are there for a reason. Imagine car wheel manufacturers start doing this to make it easier to mount tires, insane! You conclusion is mostly bonkers though, if you want your 8 bars tubes then why the hell did you get hookless rims.
Not 8 bar, 6. I was prepared to try 5 bar hookless to see what it felt like. I never really got much chance to ride at 5 bar though, because the tyre blew off! I did ride a bit afterwards at 4.3 ish, and it definitely felt too squishy to me.
The crux of this story is right around the 5min mark. If both parties are making tires easier to mount... I've not had any issues with my Extralite 339s and I've been riding them for a good 2 years with Enve SES 29". Although I did notice the tires going on much easier than what I'm used to for tubeless setup...
So the tyre should be 28mm or wider for hookless rims as I look at your chart, and then it probably works. (Ehm still some more exceptions up to 32mm) Good to know thanks a lot!!
Kudos to Conti for investigating this. It really is best to leave hookless aside for another few years and see if A) it just disappears again or B) bike manufacturers actually manage to agree on and adhere to tolerances. Until then, it's just a gamble with your health on the line. No thanks for me. And I do ride hookless rims on my gravel bike.
The problem so far, that I could tell from multiple videos about 'hookless blow off', is that hookless tech is totally relying on compatibility of numbers instead of having a safe-guard mechanism like the hook itself. If you buy from less well-known brands, or you are layze enough that you don't want to carefully follow the instructions, you will have blow off. I am running 404 with gp5000str just fine so far for 2 years. The lesson I ve learned is that you should not mount and dismount the tire frequently to avoid wearing the bead from time to time. And be sure to buy from trusted brands that has using this tech for years and it is implemented also on GT races.
It's not like hooked tires/rims have always been a prefect match. I can't count the number of times I've needed 2 layers of thick cotton tape to seat a tire. I've also had beads totally break due to being undersized. Tubeless hookless is far ahead of where hooked clinchers clinchers were even 20yrs into their existence. *I can't fathom installing and removing a tire enough to wear the bead down during the life of a tire. There's nearly no friction to wear it down and it's barely moving on the bead seat when it is moving.
Good follow up great report from them. Hope you get refund on wheels. I have x2 sets of giant hookless they absolutely fine. Stick to bigger companies that are tried and tested.
"Kinda think"?!?!?!? These wheels don't meet the ETRTO specifications. They should be recalled and replaced or full refunds offered. Civil/criminal action should follow if they fail to do this. Anyone injured by their sub-standard product should sue the hell out of them. After years in bike retail I'll never understand the sort of "Stockholm syndrome" cycling consumers seem to have for companies who make huge profits by letting them (the consumer) perform the R & D on their (often) substandard products. SRAM is example #1 IMHO.
Why would any body think hookless is better than hooked in the first place? Hooked rims were absolutely fine, it's just cheaper for the wheel companies to make hookless. Tyre companies must be doing their fucking nut.
Just as we move away from press fit bottom brackets we had to bring out hookless rims. Hookless rims are a poor solution for and industry that struggles with QC and tolerances. At least a poor fitting BB does not put your life at risk. Just because something is possible does not make it a good idea. Riders need to consider the risks and outcomes.
This should be a product recall and full replacement or refund and potentially legal action as they have sold something they say is ETRTO that isn’t, and it’s dangerous
On 31 December 1992, Czechoslovakia was peacefully dissolved, with its constituent states becoming the independent states of the Czech Republic and Slovakia.
Exactly. None of these complications existed before. Now there are many. The more non compatibles you introduce, the more likely someone falls into a trap by mistake.
Much respect to Continental for a thorough investigation. That said: if you are relying on so small a margin, I´d not buy into the hookless technology at all. Not only for safety reasons but for the versatility and freedom of tyre choice!
For the beginner rider, tubulars are way too much of a faff to get right. Hookless is not ready for prime time. I'm sticking with hooked tubeless clinchers for the time being. BTW, at 75 kg, I'm running 55/60 on Vittoria Corsa N.EXT tires mounted on Reynolds AR-29 wheels. I tried 65/70 and ended up sliding out on a turn and breaking ribs. Lastly. cRR isn't the statistic I look for as you can slide tires on any tarmac/concrete. I look for stickiness and how much power will transfer given the road surface and condition.
Good points; hooked tubeless is a good way to go for most. But tape makes tubulars much easier to install. It's true that Crr is not everything - grip is also very important. If I know I will be descending a lot I go down to 5.5 to 6 bar
@@CyclespeedTours tape helps with mounting tubulars, but it's still a faff to get the tire seated correctly. I know riders who are riding them and have done so for decades who still encounter issues mounting tubulars.
@@jamesmckenzie3532 I leave the backing tape on and inflate to 2 bar which usually aligns the tyre nicely. Then remove backing tape and inflate to 10 bar which fully straightens it.
He took great pleasure in telling me that he would be uploading a video to rip mine apart; I said fine, just stick to the facts - he did not.....despite being told by multiple people. I think he just wanted to ride the wave of the 50k or so views the original vid got, regardless of his content. It's all pointless anyway, at this level, YT pays absolute peanuts.
@@CyclespeedTours That's some insane behavior. Best to ignore that guy from now on. I sure will. Thanks for this video. It's great insight. I almost bought hookless set of wheels but cancelled my order after the drama. I'm sure it'd be fine with the right tire combo. But I don't need all the faffing around.
I just cannot buy into tubeless let alone hookless. The weight savings of tubeless is actually a weight gain when sealant is taken into account. The power advantage of tubeless is is .05 Watts, for me not worth the hassle. I also use Mr Tuffy liners, have a flat maybe once every 20 years, if not less. I am 70 still ride 50 km a day, mainly gravel, and road. I have never had a clincher that came anywhere close to the control I get from a tubby, unfortunately these days there is too much debris on the road and trails to make tubbies a viable option, get too many flats.
