Here we go again--another glib, immature, and (surprisingly) indifferently engineered Beethoven cycle, mostly in "period" style, by a conductor of genuine ability. He actually has ideas. He just hides them well.
Thank you David! I had my doubts about this cycle just based on the 2 performances of Beethoven symphonies (5th & 6th) I caught on TV during the depths of the pandemic. Was with the Philadelphia Orchestra. I was disappointed overall and your observation about the Pastoral is spot on. In the concert, Beethoven’s stream was transformed into puddle. And to your point about how and when conductors would and should approach performing a Beethoven cycle and committing to disc I offer these words: “The Ninth is difficult. Sometimes the chorus is not good. The soloists are seldom good. Sometimes the orchestra is not good. Sometimes I am no good. You know, I still don’t understand the first movement.” The quote from Arturo Toscanini in 1952 after listening to a playback of his FIRST actual recording of the Ninth. Over 50 years of performing and studying the score and at 85 years old finally committing to record. I think he understood enough.
I have listened some of it to make up my mind. After 5 seconds of the 5th, with all the fermatas taken away, I am ready to give him his well deserved white scarf of irredeemable Chutzpah. The result is dumb beyond belief and, actually, quite hilarious.
When Nezet-Seguin, with the Philadelphia Orchestra, tacked on other music -without a break! - to Beethoven symphonies, I washed my hands of Nezet-Seguin.
Edgar Brenninkmeyer: The Schmidt-Isserstedt symphony set, with the piano and violin concertos is very expensive on Decca. You can find the 9th by itself (with it’s great quartet) on EBay. The Chailly, Szell, Bernstein, Furtwangler wartime, Klemperer sets are wonderful, also Haroncourt and Karajan ‘63/‘77 sets are great. There are enough sets to chose from.
@@johnpickford4222 More than enough: Wand, Szell, Blomstedt with Staatskapelle Dresden, the last Jochum with London Symphony, Cluytens with Berliner, Kletzki with Czech Philharmonic, first Barenboim, first Colin Davis, and they are only the firsts thatI came in mind. And, as a single performance, I would mention the Ninth by Munch (the first mouvement is brutal! Magnificent!) and the Eroica by Scherchen (the second one on stereo), 43 minutes of pure excitement, way much better than all HIP performance that came later.
There’s absolutely nothing new - except for a 3rd division sonic. The reality is there were Beethoven symphony cycles recorded half a century ago that sounded better and communicated infinitely more
Would it be that in the past producers and engineers acknowledged a difference in listening in a concert hall or at home, and accounted for that, while now they try to recreate the sound of the concert hall that doesn't work as well for repeated listening at home (possibly by the limits of recording and playback equipment)?
I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with the addition of a contrabassoon part (whatever its historical accuracy may or may not be), but it sounds like it simply didn’t work here.
To what extent are the conductors partly responsible for the engineering? I seem to remember reading that Toscanini and Walter reviewed and had a voice on the engineering.
It seems like these days a conductor feels compelled to race through the symphonies at the fastest possible speed. I blame Roger Norrington and the period instrument movement for this, but of course other conductors had been taking faster tempi on record before.
@@bruckner1 I remember a few years ago playing through the early-1950's Toscanini recordings of the Beethoven symphonies and marveling at how fast they were. And even earlier, in 1914, Artur Nikisch recorded Beethoven's Fifth with chamber-sized forces and zippy tempi. He was no doubt doing this for economic reasons, but still he was (perhaps unwittingly) approaching the modern-day "historically informed" style of Beethoven playing.
Why do there have to be so many Beethoven cycles? Every new one that appears on the market joins the morass of however many hundreds of Beethoven cycles currently exist, and I suspect that few of them have anything new to add to the conversation. The time and energy spent on yet another Beethoven cycle would be better spent exploring worthwhile repertoire that has been neglected. It's fine to perform Beethoven in the concert hall because audiences like to hear the music live, but not everything needs to be recorded. The situation with Beethoven cycles has reached such a point of absurdity that I would only welcome a new one that is truly demented. Maybe someone should arrange Beethoven's symphonies for a large ensemble of crumhorns, curtals, and racketts, with a few accordions and bagpipes thrown in for good measure. The Ninth could have death metal vocalists as soloists, accompanied by a choir of excessively autotuned K-pop singers. I would listen to that. I might not enjoy it, but at least it would give full expression to the absurdity of the present day Beethoven situation and would therefore add something valuable to the conversation.
So many new Beethoven symphony cycles. Are these even necessary? Just vanity projects by young hot-shot conductors and their record labels? The thought of a Teodor Currentzis Beethoven cycle on 9 separate CDs is a frightening thought!
I don’t think they’re necessary at all. There are numerous works deserving of attention and the Beethoven symphony cycle isn’t one of them. Dave’s comments at the start are spot on - besides the fact that there’s really nothing new to be said (unless you decide to just do perverse things that are completely counter to the composer’s intentions), they’re made virtually on autopilot which makes them even more pointless.
This contrabassoon stuff is so exciting ! The ninth should be arranged to become a contrabassoon concerto so that we can really hear all the importance of this discovery !
I understand that there are now nearly 200 different Beethoven symphony cycles on disc. When I first started collecting LPs about 60 years ago, there were about 10% of this number at the most. I wonder whether all these cycles have added to our understanding of the symphonies. My opinion is - not very much!
hehe - why am I happy ? Yannick Nazgul Say Again's gleeful personality always rubbed me the wrong way. And every time he speaks I need a calculator to keep count of all the clichés.
This is yet another music chat that is fortifying the belief that, with some exceptions, our current group of “star” conductors (Nezet-Seguin, Nelsons, Thielemann, Dudamel, etc.) are not creating legendary recordings that will withstand the test of time. Recordings made by the great conductors of the past (and not just by Beethoven) have left us with reference recordings, which you Dave so expertly point out on a continuing basis. Thank you for that btw.
He was going to be on a loser before he started. Why on earth did he do something different, like his marvellous FLORENCE PRICE recording? There are countless works that need a good recording. This is the same old stuff again.
I’ve enjoyed Yannick live conducting the Philadelphia Orchestra for years now but have repeatedly been underwhelmed and disappointed with his recordings. Maybe he shouldn’t spread himself so thin conducting so many ensembles and get his act together by spending more time conducting with Philadelphia or some other group that allows his ego the space it needs. He is obviously a talented musician but he has yet to reach his potential.
He does seem to be everywhere and is getting to be another Gergiev with all this over-exposure. When you have that many engagements how on earth are you ever supposed to bring anything new to what you're doing? It must be a drug for them, they don't feel like they are alive unless they are in front of an orchestra, waving their arms about and feeling important.
Such a shame because his live Beethoven can be great and some of his individually recorded performances (with the Montreal or the Rotterdamers) are pretty good. Dashed off far too quickly, unlike his Rach symphony cycle and Sibelius symphony cycle which are (supposedly) coming out piece by piece. All very strange and a let down.
Is it possible that the best engineers were not available to travel during covid and therefore a subpar team recorded this flawed cycle? The upper strings sound thin (not only from non vibrato in all the wrong places ,did they listen to their earlier Harnoncourt s recording at all) and the basses are simply not there?
@@DavesClassicalGuide Thanks, I had missed this. I already owned it (Savall) for some time, but felt underwhelmed by it. So while I'm not 'against' period instrument approach, we end up having the same feelings.
