I think for Harry having really disturbing thoughts has to do with how deep in his head we get. I ask this all the time, and nobody has yet to say they wouldn't be embarrassed a lot. If someone followed you around all day every day and read your mind constantly, how often would you be embarrassed? I have yet to have anyone tell me 0 times. That being said, I agree it gets annoying. It is worth noting that when people judge Harry as disgusting compared to people in real life keep in mind we are judging him based on his thoughts not his actions. One of the primary themes of Dresden is choice, that you can choose to ignore your brain. Having messed up thoughts does not make you a bad person if you don't act on them, and having messed up thoughts is not justification to be a bad person. That being said I would have being more then happy if it had being more like Jims other series, where we get way less of this.
That’s very well said, and I agree that having messed up thoughts doesn’t make you a bad person. I like Harry. He’s a sympathetic character, and his loneliness is painful. I think there are more effective ways to emphasize his loneliness, but for the most part, Butcher has done a great job of creating a character I’m invested in. It’s great to read your take on Harry, and I’m looking forward to gaining a fuller understanding of him as I continue with the series!
Everyone: The series starts to get good with Summer Knight Me: Shit, Grave Peril was off the damn chain. I do understand the criticisms. Just know he does improve with every book as a writer. I just loved this one because it felt like an early season of Buffy.
There’s so much enthusiasm for this series among its fans that there’s no way I’m not going to find out what it’s all about. So far, it has mostly impressed me, for sure.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy I’m very much looking forward to your thoughts on this journey. They are excellent palate cleansers. They helped me between Wheel of Time books.
Oh man, you're in for such a treat. The first 3 books of Dresden are good. But the 4th book is where Butcher finally found his stride as an author. I can't wait to see what you think of Summer Knight!
Cool! Summer Knight is waiting for me on my bookshelf. I won’t get to it right away, but I’m looking forward to finding out just how great this series gets!
Always glad to see someone new jump on the Dresden train. It’s my favorite series. Very excited to see what you have to say about the books to come. P.S. For those of you who know, 9 books to go. *laughs manically*
I’m looking forward to being in the know! It’s really a fun series so far, and I’m already rooting for Harry. Thanks for watching - I’m always glad to learn from veterans of the series.
I totally forgot about the schoolgirl fantasy lol. I guess since Jim was still a younger writer he didn’t know what else to do. Glad you’re continuing with the series. It really does get better going forward. Believe the hype.
I’m glad to hear that it’s less prominent as the series progresses since there’s so much to love about The Dresden Files. I get the noir thing too, but I think you could pay homage to detective fiction without replicating the creepy young woman/girl as sex object trope. Anyway, I’ll keep at it!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy fair to put a note in on the critique. Harry notices it oftentimes because he is meant to. Few of these seeming young innocent women are as innocent...or indeed, oftentimes, as young...as Harry imagines them.
as someone who has read all of the dresden files works it is extremely interesting to watch the evolution of the male gazey segments throughout butchers writing in the 'verse. like we have an entire short story written from the POV of Thomas, the literal sex and sex crimes vampire, that has fewer mentions of female anatomy than any given chapter from a book narrated by Harry. Like once you read anything else by Jim Butcher it is increasingly obvious that all the weird descriptions of womens bodies are a harry dresden thing , not a jim butcher thing,, BUT like its also kind of weird that it is a thing to begin with.
Hi Philip, I wasn't trying to be mean or negative about Butcher's writing structure, I think he deploys it very well and uses it to generate a compelling narrative. It is just a little more obvious in the earlier books. I think it is actually nice to be able to see this so we can explain how plot and structure can inter-relate. I am a big fan of the series and there is a lot to like about how the series develops and grows more intricate over time. I do have a number of the same issues with Butcher's use of the male gaze, whether we justify it as part of the noir-esque style, part of an attempt to portray a realistic psychology for Harry, or as an accurate reflection of society's male gaze... I agree that it can make for very uncomfortable reading at times. Glad you are enjoying them and I look forward to the next review.
Thanks, A.P.! I actually didn’t interpret your point about the tripartite plot structure as negative so much as interesting, though “formulaic” might be an appropriate word for repetition of the pattern. I don’t think many readers would consciously articulate the pattern, but once someone like you points it out, it becomes obvious. As for the male gaze issue, I admit it’s been bothering me, but you can see from the comments how dedicated the fans are to the books, and most of them say the issue is mitigated or that the reasons for Harry, our first person narrator, dwelling on women’s bodies become more understandable as we learn more of his backstory. I’m looking forward to finding out!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Congratulations on the 5k subscribers. That is an amazing achievement and is a wonderful recognition of the work and care you put into your channel. Well done.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy But there are a couple of fun and interesting structural points that occur as the series develops. When you get further in, let me know and we can talk about it. :)
@@ACriticalDragon Oh, thanks! It’s a nice milestone, for sure. I expect your channel to get there in a shorter timeframe than mine did. You’re definitely crossing 1k way sooner than I did, and wait till you get all the goodies that come with that!
In the author's note included in each of the editions of the first three Dresden File books I've read, Jim Butcher mentions how he was a fan of John Norman's Gor series at a young age without acknowledging the very problematic portrayal of women in those books. I can't help but wonder if that hasn't shaped how he tells stories especially since his science fiction series FURIES of Calderon also apparently features a woman character posing as a slave girl getting knocked around by her "owner" judging from the excerpt that accompanies the author's note.
I’m keeping the faith, Nick! I’ve found plenty to admire so far, and the fan enthusiasm for this series is palpable, so I’ve got to find out what it’s all about.
I like that because we're seeing this first person through Harry Dresden that Jim Butcher did not shy away from the inappropriate thoughts that we have go through our heads. As a man, and it does not matter whether you're heterosexual or homosexual, we look at prospective partners and sometimes find ourselves "drinking the view in". Especially when dealing with supernatural creatures that use lust as a psychic weapon to lure in their prey or off balance an opponent. Clothing designed to elicit a sexual impulse in others actually does just that. Ask any advertising executive why "sex sales". Just because it bad to deliberately use it does not change the fact that it works. A bad man would act on those impulses and thoughts. What we see Dresden do is scold himself for having those thoughts and work at controlling them. I'm more impressed with the man that has bad thoughts and actively works at not acting on them, then the one who pretends he has no bad thoughts. And yes in the beginning Dresden really struggles with those thoughts. It's one of his character flaws. As the books go on his character develops and he's flaws become smaller.
Beautifully said, and thank you for your insightful explanation of Harry’s inner thoughts. I too value honesty, so, seen from that perspective, and given that Harry does indeed scold himself, I can get on board with that.
@@toddjackson3136 Up until now, I’ve been using Dresden as a break from epic fantasy. I know the series will grow more epic, though. I have book four on my shelf, and I’m looking forward to it!
Can’t wait to see your thoughts on this! I got lead here by Mike’s Book Reviews and was excited to see that you’re experiencing Dresden for the first time!
One of the great things about Dresden so far has been how awesome and welcoming the fans have been. You add another whole level of enjoyment to the series, and I’m excited to read further!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy I’m also excited for you to see the overarching themes of the book series. Once you’re 4-5 books in, you start to see it. Also, if I would suggest, try the short stories, where they fit in between the books. Just be careful because spoilers if you read a story too far, but considering the dearth of folklore covered by Butcher, the short stories make the experience far richer!
I am readin book 8 "Proven Guilty" right know. The Dresden Files is the series which atm entertains my the most! I'm looking forward to hearing you talk about the next books
Yay! I'm glad you enjoyed the book and continuing with the series. As far as Harry goes, this is the only series Jim writes in 1st person narrative so his other series aren't as "male gazing". And I understand people who get frustrated and quit the series because of how they view Harry especially through a modern microscope. But as every fan says it gets better and in my opinion of course people don't give credit to JB enough to use Harry's flaws as part of the narrative. Sex, beauty, and attraction can all be used as tools and weapons especially with the supernatural. But I do agree Jim could've wrote some scenes better to explain Harry's mindset or attraction instead of using "classic" male sexy fantasy tropes like a woman in school girl uniform.
Very well said! There’s a lot to love about this series, for sure, and I’m motivated to find out why the fans are so dedicated to it. Hearing from you definitely encourages me to persist!
For a long time my fantasy reader friend recommended this series to me and when Peace Talk came out I finally decided to read it and got to Battle Ground a month often it came out. The only thing I can say is I should have read it on time ago...
I'm glad to hear you've enjoyed the series! So far, I can say it's been mostly entertaining, but I'm not completely won over. The fans keep telling me how it gets better and better, so I'm in it for the long haul, and I'm looking forward to finding out!
As mentioned, all the complaints you’ve listed do get resolved over time. I think outside of book 6, where he (spoiler free) kinda gets all that sort of gross stuff out of the way, it keeps getting better, book after book. His prose develops well, his comedic timing rarely misses, and the scope grows exponentially. Credit to Jim, he’s done a magnificent job in the detail of his long term story. Take some Malazan level notes on the fae in book 4 and your soon to be favorite villains in book 5, you’ll want it for future books :)
Thanks for the heads up for book 6 and the tips - deeply appreciated! I’ve got a lot to look forward to in this series, it seems, and I’m grateful for the encouragement from its fans. If the prose and comedic timing get even better, I’m going to be blown away, I suspect.
Hey Philip! Great review! A buddy and I co-host a Dresden Files podcast/book club - we just wrapped up the fourth book. I can't wait to hear what you think when you get there :) Grave Peril is probably where I got hooked on the series.
Cool! I feel like I have a lot to learn from the Dresden Files fans, who are definitely a major factor in convincing me to keep going with the series. I’m looking forward to finding out just how great the books get, and I have a feeling I’ll soon turn a corner in terms of being hooked. Already there’s a lot to love about the series, so I’m excited to keep going!
I've read all the comments and can't help but point out that Harry can't look at anyone's eyes without consequences. Just something to remember about that gaze everyone mentions. I'm a 47yo woman and have never had a problem with Harry being a guy lol.
I don't think Michael is perfect. It's just that we see him through Harry's eyes and Harry may have a bit of a Hero-worship towards Michael. Harry is orphan so of course he would look up to someone who has a wholesome family-life. It's a bit same with many of the women in the books. Harry has major abandonment issues so he doesn't do casual hook-ups. He also has problem with technology and a pet in a small apartment, so dirtier corners of the Net and TV are out of the question. No wonder he is a bit repressed and notices every curve. On top of it all his moral values were learned from people who were born a century or two ago so saying they are "Old-fashioned" is an understatement. This shouldn't be a spoiler, but people have noticed that Harry is much more tame in his descriptions of women when he is in a relationship.
True! I really like Harry’s relationship with Susan, so far. It’s actually beautiful at times, though Harry clearly has some anxiety about it due to his past, which I’m still learning about. As for Michael, perfect is definitely an exaggeration, but I liked the guy as soon as I met him. Thanks for your thoughts - they are helping me sort out my assessment of Harry, who is a character I really like and will be rooting for.
My problems with this book (and the series so far through five books) is about the plot structure point A.P. made and you brought up towards the end of your review. Frankly it just feels like so much s-word continues to happen and snowball out of control but so little is of much relevance. It starts to feel very derivitave of itself. I can't count how many chapters have ended with something along the lines of "I was having one hell of a day". Having said that I do agree with you that the strength is by far Dresden as a protagonist and his relationships with other key characters. I'm continuing to read (at a very slow pace). I just hope the plots get more interesting and focused.
I’m taking the series at a very slow pace since I’m using it as a break between epic fantasy reads. That’s working for me so far, and I think I would enjoy the books less if I tried to read them one after another due to that plot repetition. I hear from fans that the world really expands, and the books become less formulaic, so I’ll keep at it with my turtle pace. Great to hear from you, Danny!
I totally agree with you, I didn’t really like being inside Harry’s head for this one...I’ve only read the first 3 books so far, but I couldn’t help thinking that in all three books, most of the female characters that are introduced just somehow wind up naked in front of Harry?? I liked learning more about the Nevernever in this book as well, and I want to continue the series, but I think I need a little break from Harry, ha!
A lot of fans of the series assure me the issues improve and that the books get better and better, so I’m going to stick with it as well. There’s a lot to like too, but the objectification of women’s bodies was just too frequent for me to feel comfortable. We’ll see how it goes!
Really cool to hear someone's thoughts on Dresden Files who's a first time reader of the series. I think you brought up some very eloquent points. It's been a while since I've read any of the series, but I know that a lot of the criticism I see for it is regarding that whole "male gaze" thing, and Harry being very sexist and/or misogynistic. That's never been something that I saw Harry as, but I do wonder if I'd view it differently now that I'm older(it's been probably ten years since I read any of the earlier books in the series). This may be a very minor spoiler, but now that you've read Grave Peril, keep the events that happened at the end of the book in mind, because in a way they're a cornerstone for what happens during the entire rest of the series so far. Butcher's writing does improve noticeably, and I think you're in for a fun ride. And if you love Michael as a character, wait til you meet the rest of his family.
Thanks for the heads up about the importance of the ending! I enjoy more than 90% of what I’ve read of The Dresden Files, and so many fans of the series have assured me that it gets better and better that I’m enthusiastic about continuing. I’m not totally comfortable with the objectification of women’s and girl’s bodies, but I appreciate fans who explain that it should be understood in the context of Harry’s history and his loneliness. He’s a flawed character, but that’s part of what makes him compelling, and I’m rooting for him. Thanks for watching and commenting!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy ...it's so hard to say anything without unintentional spoilers! So I'll just say "enjoy the ride, it's a fun one!" and look forward to your next review.
Harry's growing up is a very very VERY slow burn that still hasn't reached a point where he feels respectable (or likeable at times). I devoured this series over the winter holidays at a pace of about two books a day, and it felt glaring at times that in the 6-12 months of in world time between books that the characters seemed to just avoid each other so they never had to talk about their issues. I enjoy Butcher's relationships, but most of the characters have the feel of role playing characters where you pick their three personality traits and jump into a game. At times it was hard to deal with the cast having the same conflicts again and again, feeding more into the sense that these stories were fairly formulaic. That sounds somewhat harsh, so I want to add that I just recognized that these stories are not driven by the personal journeys of the characters. The plot happens and Harry and crew just happen to keep being in the way. As the scope of the series grow (and this aspect is what Butcher handles spectacularly) this becomes an element of the story.
Very cool to hear your take, and thank you for the insights! I’m using the series as a break between big epic fantasy books, so I won’t be reading it at the same pace as yours, which is pretty impressive, by the way. I figured I would never be getting Robin Hobb levels of psychological development among the characters, but I do enjoy the dynamics between Harry and the others, and I’m invested in learning about his past as well as where he’s heading. Cheers!
Butcher does do the James Bond teaser opening well. And GP's is good. But not the best in the series. You've got a couple books until the best opener and closer in Dresden. And Michael Carpenter is how to do a character of faith right. Not a judgmental bigot. Not a simple minded peasant. But an honest, humble, decent person who never backs down while encouraging the best from those around them. Like Delenn in Babylon 5. And White Court aren't "sex vampires" as such. It's the emotion they're feeding on. Not the act. More than that is RAFO.
Well said about Michael! You see a lot of one sided portrayals of people of faith where they are just complete bigots. Michael is, as you say, humble and honest, and though he constantly nudges Harry in matters of faith, and even scolds him for swearing, he does so in a manner that is not judgmental but rather loving. I look forward to those future openers in the series, especially if they top Gravel Peril, and I'll see what I think about the White Court -- I'll keep an open mind!
Ohhh, way to tease us for your next video Philip. I love it. Grave Peril is one of my favorites, especially the vampire court intrigue. I love a good run in with vampires. I really do like Susan’s character, and Karen’s too. I do wish she had more time on the page as well. I’m with you about Harry. He was definitely being quite creepy, and I’ve seen criticisms of Harry being the typical sex crazed male figure in the early books, but I’ve heard it lessens as the series progresses.
Thanks, Chas! It's clear to me that Butcher can do female characters really well, and Harry's relationships with Susan and Karrin are strong points in the series so far. This gives me hope, and I keep hearing that the books get better and better, so I'm looking forward to finding out!
I just finished it and I think I'm in it for the long haul now, good thing I've Summer Knight at hand. I liked the introduction of Vampire Courts, makes sense there would be sects of vampires. I'm not usually the biggest fan of standard mystery shows/books though that was mostly James Patterson novels and I stopped reading him after reading a dozen or so 8 or so years ago. But I've always had a love of the noir subgenre, especially in Sci-Fi and Fantasy.
I don’t know since I’ve never read his books, but I have the perhaps unfair assumption that James Patterson’s stories are formulaic. I think I even heard that other people write them for him these days, and he edits them (with just his name on the cover). Not sure if that’s true, but if it is, I find it sad. Anyway, it’s cool that you’re committed to Dresden Files. I am too - I just have to find the time to read them!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy I liked most of what I did read but it was starting to become bland, or maybe I subconsciously noticed the formulaic content, so I stopped. I can't speak to the quality of them now though.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy It does. I actually listen to the Dresden files 2 times before via Audio book and I do so while I am on very long hikes. I have gotten up to "Ghost Story." On all the books up to Ghost Story the reader is 'James Marsters' who is very very good. The version of 'Ghost Story' I have as an audiobook was read by John Glover and while he is okay it totally throws me off the vibe having a different reader and I keep getting stuck there. Since I downloaded there is apparently a new version where they got James Marsters to read 'Ghost Story' so I am in the process of going back through the audiobooks to get back there. Just about to finish "Dead Beat."
@@rometimed1382 Listening to audiobooks while hiking sounds intriguing to me - it would combine two of my favorite activities! I’ve never tried an audiobook, but I’m thinking of doing so soon. I’m glad to hear the series really gets going!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy James Marsters does an excellent job reading the Dresden files. Highly recommend this series for audiobooks if you try it out.
Wait, is dresden 30 years old in book 3? I looked it up, and he is 26. So closer to 25 than 30, but more importantly, he has only really been in "the real world" 3 years. I am unsure of what you know of his backstory, since I cant remember what is said up to this point so I wont say anything more. Tho the sexual thoughts will not abate by the time he actually IS thirty either... so I guess your point will be valid soon enough :P
Ha ha! Fair enough! I’m actually curious to find out more about his backstory, and I like how Butcher has thrown a few snippets the reader’s way in the first three books. I didn’t know he had been in our world only three years - so I’m guessing he had only recently arrived in Storm Front. I’ll keep reading and find out!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Well, he has been on earth, just not like living an actual life or whatever. Idk why I used that wording about such a high fantasy (for being urban fantasy at least) setting lol.
The three part structure is certainly there, and especially the first couple books are pretty formulaic. I think it comes from following - or paying homage to - the noir detectives that came before. Also, Butcher had the whole series planned and had a lot of groundwork to lay, and this structure helps to keep each book distinct while leaving room for Harry, the side characters and the world to grow step by step. The series as a whole also follows certain patterns. The whole male gaze thing gets brought up a lot, and I get it can rub people the wrong way. Me, I don't have any problem with it. I watch a lot of anime, so I'm used to much worse 😂 But even in most other television and movies, that strong male gaze is prevalent. Sex sells after all. Even if it was that simple, I could accept it. But in the Dresden Files it serves multiple purposes. It does support again the noir feeling, as the structure does - though I agree it isn't _necessary_ there. It's also part of who Harry is, and it fits the image of misfit nerd he has of himself, it fits his childhood, and it fits his current state of romantic relationships or lack thereof. Just as the fact he does not act on those thoughts tells a lot about Harry. It's informative about the women in his life, too. Many are attractive, another noir trope, but are they attractive because they're supernatural, is it because they're attractive that the supernatural is drawn to them, is it that Harry finds many types attractive? Finally, to my mind, many of the female characters in the series are strong - they have personality, agency, independence and in a lot of cases also raw power, supernatural or otherwise. That may not always excuse how Harry _looks_ at them, but it does give me faith in how Butcher _writes_. Talking about faith, Michael is indeed something special 😍 I've said it before, Butcher is the author that has cost me the most nights of sleep over time because I can't put them down , many of his books have evoked real emotions, I love his take on myths old and new, I love his world and characters and am invested until the end. Butcher ranks high and steady in my top 10, and I hope - and sorta predict - it will be the same for you 😉
Thanks, Rob! I’m assured the best is yet to come in this series. I have faith in my viewers, and you can see how many in just these comments have said the series gets better and better. And, the endorsement from you for Dresden Files means a ton, let me tell you! So, yes, I’ll keep at it and try to be understanding of Harry, whom I already like and root for.
Just finished book 3 and I have seen a couple people talk about "problematic" behavior from Harry. In my opinion when it comes to Harry is that if you have an opinion that an author should be writing/speaking through a character in a completely tone, imparting their your your "virtue", you are going to have a ton of boring preachy crap. Just look at all the horse shit we get streaming out of comics and Hollywood right now. 0 originality for the most part. I appreciate an author's ability to write a mindset of person who goes against the grain of their/our sensibilities (assumption). Harry even calls himself out on his own thoughts sometimes, but that doesn't change who he is and what he thinks. His past has brought him to this point, for goodness sake he has a Sidhe "god mother" who is trying to seduce him it seems like. If that has been going on his whole life I couldn't imagine how messed up that would make you when it comes to women. I'd also like to contend that when these women are described in this manner, look at where we are. I think this more points to evil, lascivious, and debauched nature of vampire society. I took it more as a signal to let me know we aren't dealing with "good guys". I could be wrong though! Thank you for your review.
Great to read your thoughts here, Jeff! I agree that it’s a good idea to think about Harry as a whole character. Yes, he’s flawed. He’s scarred. Butcher gives us his completely honest thoughts. How many of us would want our honest thoughts poured out in first person narration? Seen that way, Harry actually doesn’t seem so bad to me. In fact, he seems like someone deserving of some understanding.
The winds of change are blowing through Chicago! The objectification of women continues, but does lessen significantly, except for one uber iccy moment in book eight, like you this does nothing for me and I stopped finding it funny at about 15. That being said, the books do just keep getting better, with books six and seven being fantastic. Great review as always.
Thanks, Si! With that endorsement from you, I’m encouraged to keep going. The fan consensus definitely seems to be that the series gets better and better, and I aim to find out!
thing to remember is series is written as a classic detective noir. where ypu do ser a good deal of objectification it will get there through blood rites. remember in blood rites harry is only in his middle twenties. and he Is a male that's going to go huge stretch of time without the bares touch from another human let alone an intimate contact, this messes with a person head.
Thanks, Mike! Those are all important factors to bear in mind, for sure. I’m going to keep giving this series a chance, and there’s really a lot to love already.
When I 1st read Malazan, a bunch of us on the old Malazan forum would read Dresden books between the two. At the time it was because we thought the well-done characters, brilliant action, and "simple but effective" plots good palette cleasners between Malazan reads. 17 books later, knowing that Dresden has become an epic fantasy in urban fantasy trapping, I think we underestimated the amount of foreshadowing and layers to Dresden. Which isn't surprising because Dresden himself is unaware of it. The advantage of a 1st person POV
@@shawngillogly6873 I'm looking forward to getting there, Shawn! What you're describing is what I hope to experience as I progress in the series, so I'll keep at it.
