Shouldn’t the fast charging curve be dramatically better since you’d only technically be charging to 80% of real capacity on the “Large+”. I’m fine with concept, but I’d definitely want to know which I’m buying since I see value in the "Large+" over the Large.
Agreed. I think Rivian is treating the Large+ as a legit “Large” pack and pretending there is no max capability at all, beyond the fact that it’s labeled “+” in my About screen. I still feel like there is no real official word as to whether we can charge it to 100% regularly or not.
Just drove my R1S gen2 1,000 miles home from the factory, amazing vehicle. And yes if you dig into the menu it states Large+. After over 2 years with the Model Y I am blown away with the Rivian. So happy to move up, even if the technology of the interface is slightly behind Tesla everything else more than makes up for it. I would never consider going back. By the way the delivery team at the Normal, IL factory were absolutely wonderful to work with. 👍👍
It's a winner. You get the full advertised mileage for everyday driving vs only 70-80% for other batteries. The only "downside" is you don't get "xtra" range for long road trip.
Disagree. The standard battery will charge noticeably quicker meaning it likely will actually be faster to road trip with the LFP instead of the large pack!
@@ayushmalpeddi2793 Lol you obviously don't understand the time savings of being able to charge less. For example in a standard pack you might save 5 minuets over a large pack but in a large pack you will be able to skip and entire charging stop and a charging stop costs you 10 minuets regardless of wether you charge or not just getting off the highway and to the charger and then back from the charger onto the highway.
@@darinbrazil5496disagree. Out of spec has shown time and again that more, shorter, stops is faster than fewer, longer stops. What will be interesting to see is if it has a better charging curve because it's only ever charging to 80% or so.
@@iamnid Out of Spec has only proven that over a road trip longer than the average that charging matters. When you are talking about the average road trip of 400 miles or less it doesn't pan out that way. Less stops is better and in fact less stops is what will get people to transition over to electric faster. Also the way Out of Spec road trips is no way indicative of the way the average family road trips. Families stop and eat and use the restroom it is a much longer stop most of the time for a family. Also the difference between the standard pack and the Max Pack hasn't been proven yet side by side and the difference is minimal at best not a significant amount of time. You are talking minuets in the singular. So you can disagree all you want but it doesn't change the facts.
This is great news this is exactly what I was thinking they should do as long as they allow you to unlock the extra capacity. This allows one to buy a large pack in a R1T and keep the configuration in a price that qualifies for the tax credit which then subsidizes the price to unlock to a max pack should Rivian decide to allow the unlock. However I think the better way to purchase would be to lease it for 2 or 3 years and then buy it from Rivian after the lease as Kyle has pointed out you get the full $7500 credit and then you buy the vehicle after the lease at a depreciated price. Although I don't know how depreciation works for a lease but I would think Rivian would rather sell the vehicle to you at market value rather then take it back and wait to find a buyer for it.
If you get the buffer for free. And you can charge to 100% daily, why unlock at a few thousand dollars price. You already have the most useful benefit for free. Even when you roadtrip you only would make use of the unlocked extended range for the first charge from home.
This is a good point. Assuming they offer the unlock at some point, I would want to purchase it, but appreciate the idea that I’ll really only charge to 100 on the Max twice during my trip. The first leg there, and the first leg on the way back.
Battery information needs to be on the "Window Sticker," and that needs to be visible for all new car purchases, before paying any money, even if online. The information should show the battery chemistry, total kWh, and usable battery kWh.
The software lock max pack idea is a good one because even if the first owner doesn't want the extra range the second or third owner might and that brings in additional revenue long after the vehicle was sold and that would increase as the number of cars in operation increases. In the past all the profit from used cars went to the dealer and the automaker got nothing but warranty risk. If you have software locked features that gives the automaker a chance to get in on the used market profit.
I actually like the idea as long as they are up front with what they are doing for all the reasons stated in video. If they don't change the DCFC curve it would potentially make a better road tripper
Exactly. They are basically saying: we could sell this max pack for less, but here’s a capped version instead. Material cost would be virtually the same
They aren't loosing money, let's remember that the Max pack is just a Large pack in the first place with just more energy dense cells inside so the cost variance should very close to nothing. I love how quickly your minds have been formed into believing this is a Max Pack, they have never built a Max Pack they have only built a Large pack and shoved different cells into it to call it a Max Pack.
I'm stlll confused on charging to 100%. I have not seen any official confirmation that all battery cells are locked to 80% as opposed to one module of cells are locked and unusable. If there is a module turned off and the remaining cells are fully utilized, charging to 100% daily would be detrimental. Have you received confirmation on how the locking is obtained or are you assuming.
1. Rivian gets a warranty benefit from selling a derated battery. Far more likely to hold range through the life of the car. 2. If the Large+ fits under the $80k magic line, and is upgradable later, they’ve done some good tax arbitrage
Seems this is the same behavior from the Gen 1 Standard+ pack. If so, I’d assume these owners would also be presented with an option to upgrade it to a large/max? I asked Rivian for a comment and was presented the latest news page.
I own a R1$ standard+ battery. I was told upgrade to performance will be an option in the future.. the option to unlock the battery is still not in the works .. yet.
If Robin was smart (and they are) they would produce the Large Plus on a month by month subscription. Let’s say my daily driving I only need the large. But I know next month I’m taking a long trip, so I would be able to pay a fee to get the Max range that month, then it returns to normal at the end of that 30 day period. That’s what makes the most sense to me.
On the topic of paying to unlock extra range on a per-trip basis... Yes, you could pay to unlock an extra 50 miles of range. Or, you could simply make your first charging stop a little bit sooner or a little bit longer. My intuition tells me that the former option would probably entail paying far more money to Rivian than what you would save on public charging fees. Although, if the intention is to take the car into areas with poor charging infrastructure, there might be little choice. On the other hand, public charging coverage is getting better and better each year, so some of the places that one might think you need an EV with 400 miles of range to be able to get to, 5-10 years from now, you will quite likely be able to get away with much less. This is not to say that Rivian wouldn't be able to make money selling unlocks, though, as consumers don't always behave optimally or rationally. I can definitely see people nervous about their first road trip beyond home-charging range paying to unlock the extra range in their vehicle because it makes them feel good, even in places where public charging is very good, and the extra range, simply not needed.
I specifically got a Dual Large R1S instead of a Max because of the better charging performance that has been documented multiple times on this channel. That extra 30-40 miles doesn't mean much to me (already get over 300 miles on the highway with the large pack which is WAY over my bladder range) so better charging is significantly more beneficial. I would be severely disappointed with this swap.
@@be-golf8374 I don’t know where you are living but having extra range will allow you to travel faster. Example instead of going 70mph for like 300 miles and get those truck passing you and give you a weirdo look, you can go 80mph now because of the bigger battery 😑
@@pmquan Don't road trip EVs much I see. If you have enough range to get to the next charger (or even skip a few), then the charging speed becomes all that matters with regards to how "fast" you can travel.
It's good for the customer and for Rivian. Options later down the line are a good thing. Its one of the superior differences between EV and ICE platforms
This is an evolving approach to owning EVs. For example, I purchased a DM Large. I wanted a DMP Max, but the DM Large was a better fit for my price range at the time. As I look at this, somewhere down the line, I will likely purchase the unlock to DMP and, if possible, the upgrade to a Max pack while keeping the same R1T I currently own. I don't have to sell it, take a beating, or pay 100k to get what I wanted. I get to keep all the upgrades (after-market PPF and other upgrades that have made it mine). It makes owning this platform so much easier in the long term. The crowd that complains about getting screwed is the I want something for nothing yo's that are incredibly short-sighted. The whole truck has the potential to evolve while you own it, and you don't have to get a new rig every three to five years unless you want to. I certainly like the Rivian brand, but they will either make it or won't on their merit. This strategy is here to stay, and I am for it.
Please let's remember this is and always has been a Large pack, never has this been a Max Pack. All they did is take the large pack and put different cells in it. The difference is what 12kwh between the two batteries from large to max when referring to Gen1. Just because they have redefined things with Gen 2 doesn't change what is actually real that we know. What do you think 12kwh costs to Rivian, I would guess less than $2,000 so the difference between the two packs is small enough that it can be used for both variants because the inventory can be less since one vehicle can be offered in two variants and inventory is the biggest cost to a manufacture. I believe this is very much a cost savings to the company.
@@daadreeb6582 This is true but they still have the ability to make a true Max Pack some day and then the Quad R1T will have a 400+ mile range. There is room in the R1T to put an actual bigger battery pack for a true Max Pack.
Just wish they'd kept their pre order commitment to a 400+ mile quad. No way I'd pay what they'll be asking for the gen2 quad. Guessing $110K+ before even considering what a 400+ mile battery would add to the price.
This is a good move for customers assuming the EPA range of 330 is reflective of the extra weight. I don't mind unlocking the extra range either one time or monthly isn't a big deal. They do need to update the website though.
Why aren't these companies more transparent for the end customer who is paying? A big question would be, is the charging curve better for a locked pack vs a smaller, truly Large pack?
Only saying larg pack because rivian might end up using both as large pack. Only in the r1 software it will say large + or only large depending on the battery.
At some point there will be more than enough batteries for EVs and things will change. We will see more cars sold with the largest possible battery software locked to a smaller value on some models. That way all cars on the line get the same battery making build easier. As we get more data on battery life the other thing we will see are very long (or lifetime) warranties on batteries in EVs. Much like Korean automakers did with gas powertrains to increase sales and gain market share a few decades ago. That's also something automakers can't do on cars with a tailpipe because the warranty cost would be too high and give EVs an advantage.
I just realized that carmakers and the various governments are missing a huge and important opportunity here: global standardization. We've got a revamping of a huge, important industry going on and everyoe is just flailing about doing their own thing instead of getting together and coming up with a workable, practical, adaptable battery standard. Maybe even come up with a global battery comms, management and charging standard as well. I'm not talking about a rigid standard, it would have to be flexible and fluid to allow, and encourage, development of new tech and designs that could be shared among all companies. The idea being that having standards would lower costs and might even make repairing and rebuilding of batteries more feasible.
We could look at the positives here- being able to charge the battery to 100 percent and getting under the 80k tax rebate, or the negatives of Rivian being cheap asses and nickel and diming customers when they could unlock it for free as the cost of is the same. Depends on your perspective. They do the same exact thing for the performance modes which I think is ridiculous personally as these are 70-90k vehicles. We should not have to unlock two performance modes which all the vehicles are capable of. I think Rivian should unlock these vehicles for both performance and max packs. It would motivate consumers to buy and move their inventory which has been a struggle. They should get their dual motors under 80k so consumers could receive the tax rebates. That would move a ton of inventory and help their bottom line so their vehicles are sitting in lots.
The max pack and large pack have the same number of 21700 cells so they weight the same. Max uses 5,300 mah cells vs 5000 mah cells in the large pack. But there are disadvantages of higher capacity cells. Higher capacity cells have a lower amp draw meaning they typically can’t be charged or discharged as fast as lower capacity cells. This is why power tools are never built with high capacity cells. This is the reason power tool companies that use 21700 cells only use a maximum size of 4,000 mah 21700 cells and not 5,000+mah cells and when they use 18650 cells they stick to 2,500 -3000mah 18650 cells and they won’t use the 3,500mah 18650 cells. The higher capacity cells simply don’t have a high enough discharge rate and there is not enough space to add more parallel group of cells to share the load. This is the reason the large pack chargers and discharges better/faster/cooler vs the max pack.
My question is are these software locked Max batteries still using 100% of the cells with software managed useful capacity or is this somehow a hardware blockage of inactive cells?
I am starting to think you guys need to script your shows a bit only for the reason of actually reading though what you want to say and so that you can then edit out the things that you are saying that are total assumptions that are detrimental. Saying things like "I don't know if they are loosing money" This is a completely unnecessary thing to say and also puts the idea in someones mind that they are loosing money with this strategy when its obvious that you don't know they are loosing money because you stated as such however saying you don't know doesn't disregard the fact that what you said assumes they are loosing money on this strategy. I think you guys are great but there is so much that you say that is detrimental that cant be cleared up because these videos last forever and I don't see you going back and updating things you say that are incorrect.
Extra weight means extra wear and tear on tires and half shafts. Not telling the consumer that their vehicle is heavier than they expected could lead to law suits.
@@Japplesnap Exactly because the max pack is a large pack, it just has more energy dense cells in it. The actually size and makeup is a large pack. This is why people were upset when max pack was introduced because it wasn't a Max Pack.
@@darinbrazil5496If I’m baking and stick a 1 cup scoop of flour, it might only way 500g. Then if I pack that flour down, I may fit 600g. All in the same 1 cup. it’s still more flour. Same goes here. Doesn’t matter if they “changed the chemistry” to fit it in the same size pack. More is more.
Software locked batteries should have gentler use patterns and therefore less warranty needs. I don’t see how it’s wrong to pay for more capacity or power when it likely results in marginal increased costs for the manufacturer o
Not at all. Tesla went thru that time too - they didn’t have ability to build many varieties battery types. So they ended putting big battery into cheaper trims with software limited to save their manufacturing cost.
This is exactly opposite of dumb it's smart, it makes these vehicle more valuable and more profitable down the line. Nothing is lost. The second owner or third owner will buy the unlock to get extended range and use out of the vehicle. Also a lease of a large pack when turned in will be software unlocked by Rivian and resold as a max pack so the residual value holds longer for the vehicles.
@@darinbrazil5496 And the original buyer, who pays $90k+ for it gets screwed by less range than the vehicle is capable. This is one of the big reasons why EV sales aren't taking off as expected in the North American market. People want range. Rivian has it, but is holding back. No thanks, Rivian.
@@Japplesnap I think maybe you don't understand, the original buyer can absolutely buy a Max Pack if they would like as well, its their choice. The large pack variant is less expensive than the Max Pack thus you get what you pay for. You get to pay less if you want the large pack variant. Oh and no the large pack can be had for less than $90k+ so stop the gas lightning thank you.
@@darinbrazil5496 And yet they can also buy a software locked battery.... don't you understand the issue? Put a 28 gallon gas tank in my SUV, but make me pay more to use it's full capacity. If I don't pay more, then I only get to use 20 gallons of my 28 gallon capacity. Pure stupidity, sorry.
Large Pack is $7k Max Pack is $14k Order what you want and stop trying to make Rivian copy another EV Co.! You bought it, your stuck with it. Stop funking with the process of Rivian.
You bought a house with carpeted floor. You want tile, you should have bought a house with tile in it! If people are willing to pay more to get more on a product they already own, I’m not seeing how anyone is harmed by that.
This is just another piece of the puzzle as to why I am openly skeptical of the VW/Rivian deal. Rivian simply struggles with small volume production and doesn't have the right internal procedures in place for what to do when something unforeseen happens. In this case probably on the supplier side, so now they had to improvise in this way and confuse themselves, customers and burn another batch of investor money.
