So, the best Civil War revolver that never saw action during the Civil War or Indian Wars. Interesting! I remember seeing one at a gun show a few years. I was wondering why the guy had a Bannerman Arms Catalog next to the gun in the display and now I know why. He was too busy with other customers, and I never got to talk to him, so I wonder how he got that particular gun. I've always liked the back stories behind guns. That's why I enjoy this channel and enjoy talking to owners of old or peculiar arms. PS. I'm enjoying the Forgotten Weapons glass I just received a couple of weeks ago.
The catch was that they never saw service and spent decades in a warehouse before being sold as surplus when they were long obsolete. Seems like the Army forgot they existed...
These guys were in Utica, huh? That's not too far from home. Learning more and more about how Upstate NY isn't just a crap hole in the middle of Rochester and NYC, first with volunteering at Ft. Ontario, and learning the military history about the area, and now that there was some pretty cool manufacturing going on nearby. I bet some of these revolvers went to Ft. Ontario since that's just around the corner.
Always nice to hear of the success stories of the Civil War gun manufacturers that didn’t either constantly fail to meet their contract quotas in time or by volume and got their contracts cancelled and slowly disappeared a while after or just outright died when the war ended because surprise, surprise, wars don’t really last forever.
The R&S owes much to the Remington New Army design, many features of which it embodies. The Rogers' action work is not as robust as the Remington but nevertheless it is a fine revolver; the only one IMHO that is in the same ballpark as the Remington for reliability. I do love the grip on the Rogers... it's one of the nicest single action grips shapes ever made. A fine weapon by any standard.
That's so sad that such a good gun ended up with a history of "sat in a warehouse for forty years and then was finally released to the public long after it was obsolete."
Thank you for the work and time that you put into your videos. I watch all of your videos, and I am always entertained while I’m learning something interesting.
A lot about this design is reminiscent of the Whitney (and its Spiller & Burr copy) revolvers, down to the sight arrangement, the flared grip, and the way the cylinder axis pin/rammer assembly is retained. The overall proportions are different, but the details are similar.
I had a reproduction back in like 1980 it didn't cap jam because it had a strong main spring I don't recall who made them. I've seen a couple originals they were is such good condition they looked like modern reproductions.
Unfortunately due to being "late in the game" they did not see any significant use by the Army. So they ended up as surplus and sold off to companies like Bannerman's, so they ended being in civilian hands when the black powder revolver was obsolete. I don't know if any gunsmithing firms thought to pick them up and produce cartridge conversion cylinders for them, if they had I am sure they would have been as popular as the 1873 Colt.
You need to remember the Philippines Insurrection happened from 1899 to 1902. At that time the US Army was issued a Colt 38 double action revolver, which they found the cartridge to be inadequate, so they were going to pull 1873 revolvers out of stores and issue the more potent 45. The Philippines Insurrection was also the reason that the Army specified 45 caliber for the trials that resulted in the 1911 Colt becoming the US service weapon for the next 80 years. So, if the armorer's had grasped onto the idea of making conversions to cartridges the Rogers and Spencer might have been put into service along with the 1873, or found wide spread use by early 1900's shooters.
Looks like the biggest flaw was that they weren't "tactical" enough. Which at the time meant "you can swap the empty cylinder for a loaded one without tools in under a minute."
wasn't that easy, and people did not do that, keep in mind cylinders need to be fit to the hand of a revolver, they are rarely if ever drop in fit pieces. Now if they were totally fitted for the same gun I wouldn't doubt it, but it doesn't seem like its all too historically accurate. Pale Rider isn't real
@@Manco65 I've literally never seen anyone do that in a movie (though I gather it happened in _Pale Rider_ from a previous comment). I only know about it from people doing it with modern reproductions. Was this a common thing in Westerns at some point?
I've shot both the R&S and the Remington 1863 in competition...both repros and original guns. To be quite honest, I prefer the Remington. It's easier to reach the hammer to cock it, and the hammer does not obstruct the rear sight...which makes proper follow-through much easier. However, the R&S can and does shoot quite well. The fact that so many made it to the 20th Century unfired meant that many would survive to be used in MLAIC competition.
Could a gunsmith / company make a replacement centrefire cylinder to use modern ammunition in the piece? Keep the cap and ball cylinder for ‘fancy’ shooting, but use your modern cylinder for training etc ( using lighter-loaded ammunition)
Honestly there should have been a witch trial, for only black magic could have allowed the company to deliver good product from the get-go - and on time to boot!
I own one of the Italian repros of the R&S. I can tell you it's a dream to shoot. The grip might look awkward, but it hangs the revolver just right and the whole thing just works. The R&S revolvers are a favorite of the old North/South skimish association competitive shoots, and are possibly the best single action C&B revolver design ever made from a target shooting/accuracy standpoint. They aren't fast to cock, as the hammer spur is a bit awkward to reach, but other than that they work like a charm. There was even a specially made target version from a euro manufacturer using special barrels and tuned lockwork.
@@Kladyos And businesses. Basically every "non-profit" hospital both makes a profit and receives federal money on top, despite handily bankrupting customers the same.
@Rand Barrett Oh suuure, writing the laws and getting paychecks from lobbyists. I'm sure a politician would have it much better as a normal businessman. Leaders in the Gov should make the same as the average American. You're an idiot if you think high demand positions in companies is the same as an elected position...
My Father joined the North-South Skirmish Assoc in 1968 and fell in love with everything to do about the matches and histroy, he even convinced the owner of Euroarms of America to hire him when they opened up in the early 70's as Vice President. Part of his job was obtaining and sending over to Italy, original civil war arms to be reverse engineered for introducing into the American reproduction market. He was responsible for several guns being placed into production including the Georgia Armory rifle and more importantly the EoA Rogers and Spencers revolvers. Well fast forward 20+years and he had long been gone from EoA and in payment for building a match grade 1855 Springfield for a team mate, he is offered a David Ball Accurised Rogers and Spencers. He accepts and about 6 months later, the gunsmith David Ball is killed in a car wreck on the way home from a National match in Winchester VA. All of the guns he touched instantly skyrocket in value and collectability. My father never would sell his Rogers and Spencers revolver. My father, Brannen M. Sanders, passed away in Aug of 2021 at the age of 75. Prior to his passing, he had discussed his arrangements that he wished, while my family members were not agreeable to letting me follow his wishes to the word, I was able to greatly upset certain family members by following one of his wishes. I waited u til the graveside service and specifically requested we have an open casket at the graveside to place flowers in the casket with him, being his youngest son, I insisted on going last at speaking before he was lower into the grave. At the end of the few words I had to say, I removed his Rogers and Spencers, fully loaded and sealed with beeswax and guns com wax, and placed his Rogers and spencers, one of the batch from the first shipment of Rogers and Spencers brought in by him from Italy by Euroarms Of America, and placed it in his hand. He had requested a loaded gun placed in the casket with him on the off chance that come judgement day, he doesn't like who he meets when his grave is opened, he wants to be able to shoot the devil in the eye.
Not only the Italians, but the mighty Feinwerkbau made a Rogers & Spencer copy, called FWB History no 2. It's still THE cap & ball revolver of serious black powder competition shooters. Unfortunately it's been out of production for many years.
Speaking of junk, we have a lot of M1 Abrams (NOT A1'S) equipped with the dinky, old 105mm, first gen armor packages, etc. We should probably divest ourselves of them and get the ball rolling on an M2 so the A1's can take their spot.
@@thejayman1886 The K2 actually has a Javelin-esque missile launcher from the 120mm. It's very nice. The tank can have infantry acquire the target and fire indirectly from five miles away. Top attack EFP, so ERA tiles aren't effective.
Surprising that anyone wanted black-powder cap-and-ball pistols in 1901; obsolete, but not yet old enough to have acquired a glow of historic nostalgia.
Maybe the cost of ammo was a factor here? I don't know precise numbers, but I get the impression that back in the day metallic cartridge ammo was quite expensive. Reading training manuals and such from back then, I get the impression that the cost was so high even organizations such as miliaries couldn't afford to buy enough for what we would today consider the bare minimum of range time. The technology for making large numbers of precision things (like shell casings) was quite bad at the time.
Maybe it's a little too obvious. They look even more similiar to the smaller caliber Spiller & Burr in the way you remove the cylinder, although they're made of proper blued steel.
@@22BOZIDAR Yes, I believe Ian made a video on the S&P a while ago explaining this, which is where I saw the disassembly process with a similar screw holding the loading lever in place I believe.
Btw the Rogers and Spencer has one big flaw. It lacks a hammer rest in the back of the cylinder. No groove like in the Remingtons, nor a pin like in the Colts. So, you would either load only 5 chambers or walk around with the risk of the hammer on halfcock.
Yep, the Remington has a great easy to use cylinder safe position. It also does not require a tool to remove the cylinder. I can do a "Pale Rider" cylinder change fairly fast with my Uberti.
@@loboheeler Yep. I do have some spare cylinders for my Remington but had them only once at the range. After having to clean them, I decided that it wasnt such a great idea after all. ;-)
@@corneliussulla9963 No need for such aggressive cleaning tools - soap and water and an old toothbrush are sufficient. Black powder residue isn't THAT hard to clean... Bonus tip: hydrogen peroxide makes a great hand cleaner for black powder...
I think the thing I love most about these Ian’s videos is all the esoteric history. That these people who at the time were not considered famous or anything, made their mark and are remembered hundreds of years later for their creations, effective or not. I can only dream of making such a mark. The historical world of firearms is just fascinating!
Especially for people like me, who are not gun guys and only really interested in the stories and history! It's been said before, But Ian is an excellent presenter considering the niche history he is teaching
Sweet looking revolver. I can see where a lot of the Colt problems were finally fixed. That flared grip, the smooth curve of the grip to the frame are really nice. As is the loading lever latch.
amazing bluing for such an old gun. my colt 1892 DA revolver has pretty good bluing still as well but this looks even more uniform (tho on the colt its a shinier blue in the spots that the finish remains).
Its nice to see and hear a happy story about gun making! Kind bad the guns never saw use, it would be nice to know how they performed in use, but Its really nice how good condition they are!
Funny how the same... ratio still exists in US surplus sales in Europe. Not guns, obviously, but Hummers, Blazers etc. They're sold in lots by the kilo to licensed buyers and the bidding ends somewhere in the 60-70 Euro cent per kilo. A hummer is 4000 kilo, so 2600 Euro for a US surplus Hummer ($ to € roughly 1:1) is an incredible deal if the car was a pristine garage queen, of which there are a rare few. There are also be IED victims in the lot, or ripped from the woods while it had trees growing through them, and everything in between. So I go the this guy's website and the H1 6.2 liter diesels start at 25K Euro. He says yeah each one of those has about 18K euro's of parts and labor in them, combining wrecks into working, decent looking H1s but full of spray painted over get this sh!t out the door snot welds. If you do the math, it's Francis Bannerman's same margin, but going 26 cents to $3.10, up to 70 cents to $6.25 per kilo. This scrap dealer is using Francis Bannerman's formula in 2022.
The way surplus auctions are set up, you would think that their purpose was to get as little revenue as possible. Whenever there are items of interest for common people, they lump them together so the total price gets out of reach, even though the price per unit is very low. I have also heard stories of army personnel deliberately destroying stuff right before the auction.
I inherited two of these from my Grandfather. Each revolver has two spare cylinders. They are in excellent condition. My Grandfather got them from his father. Not sure where Great Granddad got them.
It was a great revolver to do a metallic cartridge conversion with. never got to hold a conversion but have seen them behind a glass case. If you ever get your hands on one I would be interested in seeing a video.
I would love to see Ian talk about how firearm manufacturing has changed over the centuries, from ye olden times to modern stuff. He visited that factory making links for ammo, and that was cool(IMO). As he said in this video, making guns isn't easy. And he's gone on record in other videos to talk about how it takes a long ass time to get shit set up to make em. I'm just saying it's a topic I'd be interested in hearing more about... gimme likes so he can see?
I live 20 miles from “Bannerman’s Island” as it’s known. There are videos about it on RU-vid; I recommend looking at them for a fascinating history story.
Next time we have a civil war we'll have to hold on to all the surplus until nostalgia kicks in and they become valuable antiques. What else are we gonna do with all the ARs when the gun stores only sell phased plasma rifles?
It's a beautiful piece but not nearly as good looking as the very rare Singer _(the sewing machine company)_ 1911 pistol I saw yesterday, that thing was an elegant work of art. I wish they had made a great deal more than the mere 500 they were contracted to make before they were retasked with making avionic equipment.
