Fabius the Delayer was indeed underrated. The fact that only Hannibal appreciated the strategy makes it so fascinating. It was a duel of geniuses and no one else could catch on.
I agree, though Fabius' legacy is somewhat tarnished by his jealousy of Scipio and his inability to appreciate the genius behind his desire to invade Africa: a strategy that won Rome the war.
in latin: cunctator... someone who postpones work (especially out of laziness or habitual carelessness) synonyms: postponer, procrastinator. type of delayer. a person who delays; to put off until later or cause to be late.
The fact that Julius Caesar, the Authority in warfare, modeled his style entire style around Fabians Tactics, cornering, encircling and enveloping his enemies, taking away there ability to REsupply themselves, say A LOT about Fabian, and how ahead of the game, he was...
Even more than 2000 years later, his tactics are used in the ideological arena. Have you ever heard of the Fabian Society? Gramschi once said that a long march through the institutions was necessary in order for a Marxist revolution to succeed. That march through the institutions is happening before your very eyes, but it is happening without open confrontation.
What makes this podcast special, is that the guitar intro was actually a song that Diocletian both wrote and recorded during his retirement. Not a lot of folks know that.
Cannae was truly a work of art. The greatest example in military history of turning your opponents strengths into weaknesses. The power of the legions rested in numbers, discipline and confidence. Which were exactly the factors that led to their annihilation at Cannae. Our strengths are our weaknesses. Ultimately, the same principal applied to Hannibal as well.
Diogenes Ataraxia You're probably right. However, I came across a scholarly opinion stating that Zama, not Cannae, was actually Hannibal's true masterpiece, despite his defeat. The idea is as follows: -while at Cannae his cavalry was numerically superior, so he could use it to complete the encircling of the Roman legions, before Zama Masinissa had switched sides, so Hannibal used his inferior cavalry force to bait away Scipio's - Scipio had developed his own encircling tactics: the second and third Roman lines, the principes and the triarii respectively, would slip away from behind the hastati and attack the enemy from their sides. That's what they did at the battle of the Great Plains. - to counter this expected maneuver, Hannibal positioned his weaker mercenaries and Carthaginians recruits in his first two lines, so that when the hastati defeated them, they would fall back, but waiting for them was the third line, the undefeated veterans of the Italian army, with their spears lowered. Then, the mercenaries and the recruits would have no choice but to fall to the sides, effectively enveloping the Romans - to make matters worse, the hastati were particularly tired because, according to Polybius, they had done all the fighting for the Romans up to that point: in order to let Hannibal's elephants pass through with little damage at the beginning of the battle, Scipio had to arrange his maniples in a grid, not in the usual checkered formation, which prevented the principes to come relieve the first line Basically, instead of enveloping the Carthaginians with an offensive infantry manenuver, Scipio found himself almost enveloped by a *defensive* infantry maneuver, similar to what happened to Varro at Cannae (or Paullus: there are some hints that it was actually the patrician who was in command, such as the fact that was to the right of the formation, and that Varro wasn't treated badly when he came back to Rome), only Hannibal didn't have enough cavalry to give the Romans the coup de grace. Effectively, he was in a race against time to the win infantry battle before the enemy cavalry came back to the field. They did, just in time, so he lost. I don't know what to make of it, but it's a fascinating interpretation nonetheless. Cheers from Italy.
@@landochabod7 That really is fascinating! It really makes you wonder how different the world would be if Carthage dominated the Mediterranean instead of Rome.
@@corymack6669 Actually I think it was an article written for the Italian magazine Archeo, issue 88 (april 1992). I don't remember the name of the author, maybe I could check it out tomorrow.
1:23:37 The war hung in the balance as two the most greatest strategic and tactical geniuses in history oversaw an unimaginative clash of brute force. This is one of my favorite sentences in the entire podcast. Wonderful example of Mike Duncan's charm as a writer.
So in late 55bc Crassus set out for Syria to build himself a great army so he could invade Parthia while Pompey set out for the kitchen to make himself a nice snack and take a nap.
I think the issue with Carthage was that the colonies operated to such a degree of autonomy that they were stuck in the mindset that the war was Cicely versus Rome or then Hannibal versus Rome while the Romans view did at Rome versus Carthage
yes and no. Rome was fighting with their own home-grown troops on their turf, vs a smaller, more stressed group of mercenaries that would eventually prove to be the down-fall of Carthage. Fabius did what he needed to do to hold Hannibal off, but given the circumstances, Rome was embarrassed. Fabius was lucky that Hannibal couldn't fully consecrate the agreement with Phillip in Macedonia. If the Phillip's troops had entered the 2nd Punic war, Rome would be an after-thought in world history, just like Carthage is today.
@@brianjacob8728 Rome's first three armies sent against Hannibal's forces got clocked, the last being almost double the size (accounting for cavalry difference). Any new army would've been fresh recruits running into one of the most battle-hardened forces in history. If it's true that Rome was nearly bankrupt by the end of the war, despite victories in Sicily and Iberia, then they were just a couple major military defeats away from losing the war.
@@PoochieCollins rome was close to failure. if hannibal had gotten support from carthage and from phillip v in macedon, there would be no vatican today.
I listen to those podcast while playing Rome in civilization VI on marathon, I can't focus enough to understand what's happening but I get the general picture. Thanks
Cool man, I used to play Caesar 3 a long time ago. This podcast would have been great to go along with it since the game follows the basic narrative of Roman history down to around 150 AD. I remember I bought Alexander Dodge's book on Hannibal because of the game.
It's very hard to multitask whilst listening to this podcast, though it's good to listen to on long walks. Caesar III was great, along with Grand Ages Rome.
sir you ARE my peace.... when ever im stressed or over stimulated with the frustration of the day i close out the world and play these videos. i know im weird but it calms me down learning about rome... thank you for these videos.. thank you for the education.. you made me want to learn history even more so ...
@@HFFCANADA I thank Timaeus for making available this series, thank you for pointing it out, I also follow Revolutions and The History of Rome by the wonderful Mike Dunkan in apple podcasts
1:22:14 If you're curious there's this great video that is a reading of a posterior account by the roman historian Titus Livius of what that conversation between Scipio and Hannibal looked like: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-2QEVbQH1ZRg.html
22:00 got to love the stupid ass Roman general who had one goal "guard the pass at all costs" and sprinted towards the first army he saw haha. My man, you had ONE goal.
yeah, Cannae and Chancellorsville are the two battle always taught in Military Science class, however, the instructors always fail to mention that the winners of those battles lost the wars...
Sorry for offtopic, but i find it pretty fascinating to find fellow eve player and very good youtuber, while casually checking random episode of podcast. Would is truly a small place :D
Love listening to this on a speaker while riding an eBike and smoking a joint and building a campfire when I get to my local park :) feels like modern day cavalry and the weed helps hohohoo. Historia Civilis is also a great channel that has made videos about these battles with visuals you can watch to follow along what's happening EDIT: One month later I've finished the whole series and it's very depressing. I wish Rome stayed a Republic!
in a episode of Ancients Behaving Badly on Hannibal. it's said that during the passing in the alps, the weather turned making it in Hannibal's mind a sign from the Phonecian gof, Baal. this gave his invasion a religious standing.
1:07:00 This seems to combine elements of Hannibals tactics at the battle of Cannae and Alexander the Great's tactics at the battle of the Hydaspes where Alexander lulled Porus into a false sense of security by repeating a routine with his army over and over.
Love that you mention their meritocracy, or at least the closet we have ever gone towards that goal. Equality of opportunity is one key element to a successful long-term meritocracy, and the other is the non disparaging of those who arent talented. The latter is what the US fails at worse, though the former hasn't been there either.
Exactly! An empire needs to give room for its citizens to grow and flourish and exercise their ambition. When you lock all power away behind an imperial office and title of God like emperor, those ambitious people turn on themselves and the power plays are just played out in smaller scales everywhere But maybe it's only possible to act that way when you are on the upwards streak and still not at the top. There's a good quote about any succesful empire NEEDING an enemy to fight and that's what happened at The Punic wars too. Soon as Rome because the pinnacle of power it turned on itself (more than it had done so prior I mean)
A couple points about Cannae. Paulus probably was in charge that day due to his unanimously declared position on the right flank. Also, the aristocratic writers Polybius & Livy were likely to blame the lowborn Varro for the debacle. It probably helped that Polybius was best friends with Paulus' grandson.
It kind of irks me that 'experts' in the comment section apparently corrected your slightly wrong pronunciation of "Ken-Ay" into the completely wrong "Cani". A mostly correct pronunciation would be "Can-Eye"
Hasdrubal slipped away after losing to Scipio at the Battle of Baecula. Despite having the higher ground, Scipio outflanked his army and Hasdrubal ordered an early retreat to minimize casualties.
Don't know who 'corrected' your pronunciation of cannae but the latin dipthong ae is pronounced as 'eye'. Thus kuhn-eye. Can-ay is widely aaccepted in military circles. You do a wonderful job.. Keep it up.
I would agree with you about Cannae but n ot your earlier comment about Maximinus. I have never heard anyone say MaximEYEnus. Anyway, Mike's strange pronunciation of certain words is well known to listeners of this podcast. One that I never liked was how he said Antnee instead of Antony.
@@-timaeus-9781 i do not recall an earlier comment about maximinus...i only just found this podcast yesterday. The Antony thing would probably make me laugh as my given name is anthony.
if we are using classical latin pronunciation shouldnt Cannae be pronounced Cann-“eye”, as the ae makes an “eye” sound like in the plural of puella, which is puellae (puell-“eye”)
@@GAndreC idk about that. there are a number of period classical latin writings about grammar and what “proper” senatorial latin should be like as verses the vulgate latins. Not to mention it is one of the most well researched and studied languages by linguists with some of the most textual resources about it. In fact we know a good deal about how latin was pronounced in different times, and thats why most latin classes teach either ecclesiastical or classical latin, because we are pretty confident about how classical latin sounds and the development of latin as a religious language.
The Battle of Cannae is not the worst Roman military disaster, despite it being a common misconception, the honour goes to The Battle of Arausio where tribesmen from Jutland plus their hangers-on from a tour de Europe dealt the Romans an even worse defeat.
PalleRasmussen Yeah....they lost about 80,000 fighting men and 40,000 allied soldiers and yet that bitch Octavia/Augustus cried like a bitch upon hearing he lost 3 legion.
PalleRasmussen in manpower and equipment, yes But at Cannae the very future of Rome was threatened as the republic was relatively weak and losing the second punic war would have been the end of Rome as a real power
I have always thought Hannibal should have taken Ostia after Cannae and cut off the Romans supply of grain. He could have burned the Roman fleet and destroyed their dockyards.
i wonder if there was ever a chance after Cannae (during those mostly "idle" years) that Hannibal could capture enough transports and link up his army with Macedonia thus helping him conquer the greek states. Would Philip later help him in Italy? How would the romans respond to this shift of events? Aside of this, if Hannibal won, would Carthage become a huge empire or would it split with Spain as a Barca led kingdom?
When I learned Latin, we would have pronounced it "Can"-"Eye". The [ae] always pronounced "I". For example, in "curriculum vitae", we would pronounce the latter "We"-"Tie"
I think Rome sealed its own fate when it became an Empire instead of a Republic (sorry Julius lol). The problem with emperors is they tend to die and its hard to settle on a good replacement. The constant infighting, betrayals, and scheming for power led to the weakening of the Empire from within. In addition, the emperors didn't pay enough attention to picking capable successors. Look at Marcus Aurelius. He was a great emperor but made the sloppy mistake of naming Commodus as his heir. Commodus basically wasted all the good work that Marcus Aurelius had achieved. I also think Constantine made a horrible mistake when he executed his son Crispus. Crisps may have turned out to be a great emperor like his father.
Yes Marcus made the terrible mistake of not choosing someone that had been tested first. That event pretty much began the long slow decline of the Empire. It sad that one of the best emperors chose one of the worst as his successor. As for Constantine I would say that his decision ironically helped to contribute to the downfall of the western empire yet simultaneously helped the eastern empire to survive. It just goes to show that everyone's human after all.
I'm no expert on this so if you could enlighten me....how exactly did the death of Crispus help the eastern empire? I know i could probably just listen to your video on Constantine but I'm still stuck on the Punic Wars lol. I have a long ways to go before i listen to your Constantine videos.
Aureliius wasnt the first to choose his son..wasnt lucius verus also the son of pius or of his blood at least? At least antonius had the good sense to balance the two though. And ill never understand the hate constantius ii gets..or at least the lack of credit. He ruled for 24 years at least and while hisbbrothers continuously mucked things up..he kept things in line. At his death he ended what could have been another civil war amicably.
Scapio Used some powerfull Sacred Chickens, that's why he won. Hannibal wanted to destroy Rome by taking away everything they achieved, like dismantling them piece by piece. He let his Sadistic Vengeance get the better of him. Plus he didn't want a lost at an attempted siege.
No one ever explains why Spain was so desired and valuable. Rome did not bother with Gaul, but went right to Spain. Was it the silver?? Was it grain? Was it the horses?? I think there were iron mines, to make weapons with. Was that it?? I think it was the silver. Am I right?
They had already established vassal states in southern Gaul along the route to vassals in northern Hispania. Where as Carthage actually owned territory in southern Hispania and that's why they went there first, technically.
@@Hugh_Morris If you read Livy and the Punic wars, that is not the sense one gets. When Hannibal marched across southern Gaul, he had to deal with Gallic tribes. No Roman towns, or Romans themselves, except for the Army he met and defeated. What is now Marseilles, was founded a Greek colony. I never read it being in Roman hands at any time during the Republic. So, your assertion does not seem well founded. If you have a source, I would love to read it.
@@craigkdillon I said Roman vassals, as in client states. Not actual Roman colonies, just "friends". The only one who had actual cities were the Carthaginians in southern Hispania, so the Romans annexed them outright.
Cannae is probably the worst Roman loss in terms of casualties. In terms of strategic consequences, I think Adrianople was the worst Roman loss. The Roman Empire never recovered after Adrianople. Alaric and the Goths sacked Rome a few years later.
Cannae was a major turning point in the Punic wars, and Adrianople was pretty much at the end anyway. Everything was pretty much down hill after Constantine. Breaking the empire into two halves saved the east but condemned the west.
you could argue Cannae was not that important overall because Hannibal was never going to conquer Rome anyway. Rome was able to raise another army shortly after Cannae. They had so much manpower to draw upon. Once Rome started using Fabian tactics and sent an invasion force to North Africa, it was all she wrote for the Carthaginians. A good analogy would be the American Civil War. Despite all the South's great generals and heroic attempts, the North just had too much manpower and industrial might. On the other hand...Adrianople resulted in the destruction of the only army capable of stopping the Goths and the death of Valens "The Last True Roman." After Valens died, there were no capable emperors left. Majorian gave it a good try but he had too many things going against him (Rissimer and the Vandals).
Michael Cline The Battle of Adrianople was a sign of how the Romans have gone down. The Romans only had 20,000-25,000 soldiers and was said to have lost over 15,000 soldiers. Compared to the losses endured during the time of the Roman Republic. The Roman Empire was the weaker of the two style of governments.
Did anyone else watching this get heartburn and a headache while listening to how Hannibal's army just walked all over Italy and consistently backhanded the Roman Legions?
I hear you, let's make a list of what the Romans left human posterior then the Carthagenians. Oh yes the winners get to write the history. I guess that wasn't Hannibal.
But the fact that Rome still won is amazing. It's like a guy getting stabbed in the neck and still winning the fight. Then burning the other guy's corpse while pissing on the ashes, with the knife still in his throat.
I've only just been starting your series on Spotify and got to this part of the story.. I would only add that after defeating Carthage, the Romans utterly destroyed the city to make sure they wouldn't dare attack again ...
Well to be fair, three points should be considered: 1. They are discussing the same subject matter, so there are bound to be similarities. 2. Extra Credits have freely admitted that they've heard Mike Duncan's podcasts, and that they partly helped inspire them to make the first series of Extra History videos(hell, they've even worked together with him on a video). 3. While they sometimes cover the same subject matters Mike Duncan and Extra Credits really do it in their own ways.
@@TheJuggalo909 fair enough anyone educated would have a hard argument against that. But I still think still think all roads lead to Rome. And Rome is in London since 1921.
People peak by age 25 at the absolute latest. All parts of the brain are deteriorating beyond that. Its backed up by Neuroscience, esports (check esports earnings, best example Starcraft 2 tournament results by age). History: Napoleon, Alexander and from this video Hannibal and Scipio. Even associations like pictures of Einstein in old age, he shared his theory of general relativity age 26. Associations of Chess players not being young, Carlson first won age 22, grandmaster has been reached by age 12. Young people should be empowered, it would make for a much better society, the greatest achievements tend to be by the young but the vast majority of power is given to the old. Youngest leader of a country anywhere in the world at the moment is age 34.
I’m beginning to think that the Roman republic was a really terrible form of government. 2 chief executives, both of whom are also commander-in-chief of the Roman military. Lunacy.
Venice as a Republic lasted a long time, but also had its faults. We can say it lasted from the fall of the Western Roman Empire until Napoleon destroyed the Republic. De Facto it was independent for most of the period. It also had an interesting form of government.
