@sir pinpoint : Yeah, but my comment was saying that Rufus Tranquilus did nothing to Octavian or Antony to warrant them killing him, not that Rufus was a good or innocent man in general. Most people abhor the notion of slavery now, but back in Roman society, as you know, people owing and/or abusing slaves was as common breathing. Thus, Rufus profiting off slave labor wouldn't have been seen as uncommon or amoral among most back.
@@Taiko-THC349 givers happy takers happy... its not hard to satisfy a spoiled rich girl if you got the money. Especially the ones that dont need to use their brain to survive tends to be the easiest to manipulate
@@SwedeProof a good pun is always my pleasure my dear friend. Also side note you guys make amazing wood splitters very handy for Aussie long Easter holidays camping.
During the time of Sulla's proscriptions, a man went and saw his name on one of the lists. He cried out, 'My villa has killed me!' He knew he hadn't done or said anything that would get him in trouble with Sulla. Unfortunately, Sulla needed money for the treasury and the man happened to own some valuable lands. In peaceful times it's wonderful to be rich. In times of revolution or civil war it can be the cause of your death.
Maybe if he had premptively made a large sizeable donation to Sulla and retired to some far flung corner with a modest retirement lumpsum then he could have kept his life.
Sulla is misunderstood a lot. By all accounts Marius was the bloodlusting Monster Sulla is often described but Marius did not publish any lists. Sulla as clean and precise like with everything else published every name and most were part of Marius crimes in some way. Sulla was very important for Rome to get back to Stability and control of the empire
@@listrahtes I see Sulla and Marius as two sides of the same coin. I don't see either one as the 'good' or 'bad' one. They were both exceptional generals who were quite willing to murder their political enemies when it suited them. Honestly, if Marius had been younger and won the war I could see him doing roughly the same things Sulla did, just on behalf of the Populare. Though maybe he would have kept having himself elected Consul rather than Dictator.
@@nelsonchereta816 Pretty much this. Thucydides talks at length about how revolution and political strife gripped the Greek polities during the Peloponnesian War, and he mentions how cities would frequently switch from Athenian allied democracies to Spartan allied oligarchies and then back to democracies. Cities often changing their allegiances and political structures multiple times. And each time the political order in a city state flipped, it would be followed by purges, proscriptions, and mass bloodshed. The democrats would come in, and violently purge their city of the oligarchists. The oligarchists, vengeful would conspire, overthrow the democracy, and then commence a violent purge of the democrats. And on and on and on this would go. Rome during the late Republic was much the same. Marius came into power, violently purged the Optimates, only to be overthrown by Sulla, who came in and violently purged the Populares, only to be overthrown by Marius, who violently purged the Optimates, only to be overthrown again by Sulla, who violently purged the Populares. Political violence and terror was not unique to any one political party in Rome. Rather it was a very common arsenal in the toolbox of political ploys that each party used to get the leg up. And frankly, this is a story we see repeated time and time again throughout history. In the Islamic Caliphate, the Umayyads used terror to solidify their rule against the Alids, only to themselves become the victims of terror perpetrated by the Abbasids. In China, the various Court Factions of the Imperial Court such as the eunuchs, generals and royal family frequently took turns employing terror against one another to cement their control over the Court. The Wars of Religion saw Catholics and Protestants frequently purge and massacre one another to establish dominance. The French Revolution is probably one of the most well known examples with Jacobin-led Revolutionary Terror and Bourbon-led Counter-Revolutionary Terror being employed.
In real life this incident played out differently. There were some men they all agreed should be killed but each member of the triumvirate had to make a concession to be proscribed. Antony had to give up his uncle. Octavian had to give up Cicero. Getting octavian to give up Cicero was the hardest part of the meeting but he did so to appease lepidus and antony.
Octavius argued long and hard for Cicero's life. After he was sole ruler of Rome, he looked after Cicero's son and even made him consul; in that role Cicero the younger gained some revenge for his father's murder, by proclaiming the defeat of Mark Antony in the senate after the battle of Actium.
So basically HBO does Octavius dirty by making him be the one to propose killing Cicero while Antony is left to agree, when in real life it was the other way around.
He did not said that like a villain, more like sociopat he is. Brief pause to suggest remorse which he felt, then back on trail to climb on that last step of the zikkurat.
@@jantekjantek it's been suggested that Octavian/Augustus was an aspie (aspergers) and that seems to have been how the series played him. Aspies are often intelligent, single-minded and without squeamishness, but for reasons that support their goals. Sociopaths (and psychopaths) do bad things on impulse, often because they don't have a sense of 'why no'..
@@davebox588 Thats possible, heard that. Its funny tho how some slight deviations lead someone who follows textbooks to say you have a disorder. I really liked how the actor portrayed Octavian, the series hits some serious bullseyes with whole "rome" aspect. edit: my point about aspergers was that diagnose someone 2000 years after his deaths with aspergers according to modern "social behavior" can not be conclusive. You can't know it, it will forever be hypothesis.
@@jantekjantek yes, of course we can't know. That's why I said "it's been suggested". The comment was that he was a sociopath. That doesn't seem likely for the creator of the Pax Romana, though possible for plenty of other emperors, particularly Caligula. But of course the modern study of history is multi-disciplinary and pulls together information from study whose relevance wouldn't have occured to us even twenty years ago. Psychiatry is maybe one of them?
@@jantekjantek I agree it was obvious he doesnt want to do it but if his plans were leak to brutus then chances are he and Anthony might lose the battle.
Best part of this scene: how casually Atia explains why she wants Tranquillus dead, as if it were a small annoyance to be taken care of. Polly Walker really stole just about every scene she was in during the show's run.
Yeah, she is great. The scene seems to illustrate what a trivial regard the Roman upper class had for the lives of others. It is almost like they weren’t people, but rather pieces on a chess board to them, and/or an inch they needed to scratch. There were probably a lot of people on that list who deserved to be killed, but also some who didn’t. Casualties of politics and the ambitions on men.
Antony's armor has a medal with the picture of Alexander III, the great, dressed in his favorite Hercules lion cap. He was one of the last people to see his tomb when Cleopatra took him there to boast about her ancestral line. I think that it was Octavian who moved the tomb into an unknown place.
@@user-sc5iv2rp2t The Ptolemys were not descended from Alexander. All of Alexander's offspring and relatives were murdered during the Wars of the Diadochi. At most, he had a few cousins, one of which was notably Phyrrus of Epirus.
When Octavian entered Alexandria he asked to see the tomb of Alexander the great when he opened Alexander the great sarcophagus octavian laid on Alexander’s head the crown of flowers but accidentally broke the corpse’s nose in the process. When Octavian was asked if he wanted to see the mausoleum of the Ptolemies He replied “I came to see a king not a row of corpses.” I don’t think Octavian would have moved the sarcophagus for fear of angering the Alexandrians. As of today it has yet to be discovered
only thing bothers me in this series is Lepidus. They portrayed him as a fucking idiot. like a pawn. he was just as influenced as Mark Antony in real life if not more
@@stephencronin1080 yeah I know show was abruptly cancelled and all but they had time to portray him as an idiot so I think they had enough time to portray him as he was. Or at least something close to. Cleopatra also had little screen time but they nailed the character.
@@davidwalsh6608 If by retire quietly you mean have all of his legions defect to Octavian, who then stripped him of his powers except in name only, had his son killed, (who had been caught up in an assassination plot on Octavian) was essentially put into house arrest until he died save for when Octavian needed him in person at the Senate.
I love the little moments that Octavian has after he first hands over the list. You can see he is steeling himself for the hard, cruel road ahead. The Octavian of later episodes would have no hesitation, but this is his Start of Darkness
This show was so good, not since "I Claudius ' back in the 70's had there been such a great TV show about Rome. Unfortunately, I don't expect to get another 30 years to wait for the next. Vivamus, Moriendum Est
Octavian sending his best subordinates out with a 'special' mission-his genius general Agrippa with specific details to be given to Vorenus and Pullo in dealing with Cicero shows Octavian does NOT want this special assassination potentially botched. Seemed he wanted to at least give Cicero a somewhat noble death at the hands of experts and not simply getting hacked to death by street urchins.
If you're not willing to carry out the necessary means, then you never sufficiently desired the ends in the first place. Very Nitzechien. (I think I spelled his name right. Someone correct me if I didn't. Thnx. )
Aww nice reference but you're a bit late. "Tribune Aquila" died in Mutina, the very battle in which Octavian "defeated" Antony, just a few weeks before this scene.
Ahmage Bishoor cool looking armor and melee weapons* granted you can still hit someone with a bat or something, but I’d prefer to just shoot them. (In self defense of course)
@@ahmagebishoor7675 I mean the Ancient Greeks used layers of linen stitched together to make a tough padded armour (Linothorax; Greek, Loricae Linteae; Latin) which is actually surprisingly effective at stopping arrows and having them bounce off, unlike leather armour which would embed them in it and probably allow them to push through to the skin beneath before stopping. Hollywood always thinks leather armour looks cool, thus all battles whether ancient or fantasy would use them. It's not that much of a stretch that today's bulletproof vests use methods that the Ancients would find remarkably similar to their times.
Lepidus "... General Antony, tell them!" Antony "Do you feel like in charge?" Lepidus "Well ... Im lending a bit of weight to your course ... I have friends in the senate ..." Antony "And that gives you power over me?" Lepidus "........................ Im off to Africa then, see ya around folks" Octavian " I think not ... I like Africa ..." Lepidus " Alright then ... do you know why im not very well known in the 21st century?" Octavian " .... No ..." Lepidus " 'cause this is my historical exit, farewell fellas"
Irl thats basically what octavian said during this meeting. Each man was forced to give up someone they cared about to appease the other two. Antony was made to give up his uncle. Octavian fought for Cicero but eventually he gave in to pressure from antony and lepidus in order to preserve the triumvirate
Imperator caesar augustus divi filius, primus inter pares, princeps civitatis, princeps senatus, princeps, pater patriae en mi opiníon el además claudio, trajano y marco aurelio son sin lugar a dudas los mejores gobernantes de roma no por nada a trajano le dieron el título de optimus princeps.
What the heck is this Atia doing there in the first place? Romans, macho as they were did not want women in the millitairy command tent ( it became the downfall of Marcus Antonius at Actium with Cleopatra bossing around) and Atia in all accounts is mentioned to have avoided political life as much as possible, not only for herself but also for her son Gaius Octavius. After the death of her husband Gaius Octavious she married the Epicurean and fence sitter Lucius Marcius Philippus. There was however a matrone mingling frequent in politics and that was the wife of Marcus Antonius himself, the granddaughter of Gaius Gracchus, named Fulvia and mother of Octavian's first wife Claudia.
@@MikeFromPA That is an unbelievably simple and stupid analysis. Augustus and Julius Caesar were both populists who were trying to make better the lives of the Roman citizens. They were despised by the ruling classes and the rich and loved by the armies and common people. This sounds like exactly like what us Nationalists want. Global elites killing our ways of life for personal profit is exactly what these two would have fought against. Thinking that being "progressive" means the same thing throughout all of history is retarded. Our idea of being "progressive" today is sick and twisted.
@@Xeper-I-Set Atia is the mother of Augustus. So yes, she's a real historical figure. What we see in the show is what is known as a Fictional Version of a Historical Figure. And I wasn't trying to make an argument, I was merely pointing out a fact; Historically, Atia never saw her son become the First Emperor of Rome.
@@Xeper-I-Set Well if you want to be vindictive and take it as an argument, go right ahead. You can't read tone in text! You have no idea what I meant, so people can just make up your own meaning. I was only saying that Atia was Dead by this time.. Its also known as a "fun fact." Shame on me for not clarifying for trolls... 🙄
Augustus became the richest man in history because of this. Fun fact: the roman empire under augustus was the ideological foundation for Italian fascism. Named such for the bundle of sticks (fasci) the Roman consul would wield to signify they were in power that day. So you're saying a fascist dictator should kill any and all political rivals and confiscate their wealth for the state and use that to lower taxes and give the people the equivalent to 3yrs wages in order to buy their love. You consolidate power and become ultimate ruler over your new nation. The people have zero say in their governance but let's be honest by that point it was so corrupt they didn't have power anyway
