I enjoyed the conversation, but I sense that Kagan was quite dogmatic on Russia being the embodiment of evil and the West the embodiment of good. I feel the situation is slightly more complex than that, and I find it disingenuous to the spirit of truth and critical thinking for Kagan to chalk up any skepticism of Western righteousness as the result of Russian Hybrid War Propaganda. Peterson tried to delve into the nuance of the situation but Kagan was quick to snuff those attempts out.
To me, he seems like a tool for the defense industry. Obama killed thousands of children with drone strikes and starved hundreds of thousands in Africa with hits energy policies. It's not like Putin is a really bad guy when you compare him to US leaders
@1:07:21 Jordan wants Frederick Kagan to talk about "our" errors/mistakes but this is what Frederick Kagan says: "before we get to our own errors because you know I've got to tell you Jordan that one of the things that I'm very focused on is you need to start by blaming the enemy for things the enemy does."
Listening to this man's list of credentials and him speak, i have no doubts that he is highly educated and intelligent and knows a lot about this situation. I also do not trust him one bit.
@@uncle_rizzo1017 But he made clear concessions to the reasons Russia is skeptical of the West when he referred to American troops helping the white army. He seemed pretty fair to me
Fishy to me when he kept saying “we”, like “we were wrong in our prediction that Putin wouldn’t invade…” Who’s “we”? War pundits on a betting game? Geez.
A man can acquire vast amounts of knowledge over his lifetime, but seldom does a man allow his presuppositions to be challenged. Ph.D’s all around the world discuss and debate subjects on a daily basis and rarely does one ever change the views of another. There has to be another way of getting at the truth. I love Western culture, being American, and all of the great ideals embodied within it. However, over at least the past many decades, we have been overtaken by the worst criminals humanity can produce. They also happen to control most media outlets, universities (which JP is fully aware of), NATO, the EU….and Ukraine. Ukraine has been turned into a hub for operating much of the evil that oppresses humankind. I’m not saying that Putin is a great person. But in this case (and from listening to his speeches over the past many years), I tend to think that he is actually meaning to free the good people of Ukraine from the criminals that have taken over there.
@@iloveyoufromthedepthofmyheart Yeah right... he created coup in Mexico to install pro-russian government... his secret services supported bio-labs on the Canadian border with USA... Ah, yes, he also said that Cuba will become part of anti US military coalition... Wait! He did none of above...West did this to Russia.
@@iloveyoufromthedepthofmyheart partly. but the main responsibility for this chaos again bear the USA, with the ignorance of russian security interest. watch john mearsheimer for details.
"Russia is never as strong as it pretends to be and never as weak as it appears to be" ~ The Polish proffesor of history at my university with whom I had a classes about 19th century history I really recommend You to remember it...
@@link6563 Lol the sentence is so far from meaningless it can almost be formally interpreted. It’s just saying weak appearances < actual strength < how strong they pretend to be. All of these quantities could theoretically be in any order for a given country, so I don’t see any contradictions that could lead to you saying the statement is meaningless.
Context? I ask because ""never as strong as it pretends to be" is an oxymoron, as it is used here. If used as psi-op lingo it could perhaps contribute some desired effect - but otherwise, it won't wash.
Almost all of the things Dr. Kagan has said in this interview is the exact stuff I see on MSM or other media, so no new information & insights as far as I'm concerned sadly.
Now that we've heard the US State Department's view on the war in Ukraine, can we get someone from the Russian side? Or at the very least, a neutral observer? Preferably one who doesn't make mistakes about the most basic facts of Russian history/ society, like that the head of the Russian Orthodox Church is in Istanbul?
What? Considering your last line, the person interviewed was *very clear,* in my view - the leader of the *Orthodox Church* (international family) is the honorary Patriarch of Constantinople (now Istanbul), named Bartholomew I. That *included* the patronage over the Russian Orthodox Church, up until 2019 - when ROC decided to disavow itself from the rest of the Orthodox family, bc of the Ukrainian Church split. The interviewee didn't say anthing incorrect.
If someone tells you that the USA intervenes in other countries to "make them free", you are either dealing with a liar or an overgrown child with a cartoon version of the world.
guy is writing books for Westpoint... what point of view did you expect from this person? I am more surprized at JP. I thought he was better then putting up a propaganda fluff pieces like that.
Now get someone on who dares to go indepth on what the wests part is in this. Because this dude seems bias as hell!! I've seen multiple lectures from professors who are actually specialized on the subject of the dynamic between Russia and the west. And they are pretty damning when it comes to our part.
@@Despote00 first name that came to mind aswell... but there is also this talk from Vladimir Pozner at Yale which is very interesting and adds a lot of viewpoints from the Russian perspective.
doesn't sound like a good coverage of their history. surprisingly the professor covered only the "western" view of their history not saying Putin is right, but people might be interested getting the whole story
@@keyboarddancers7751 He and his wife works for US military, obviously he wont talk bad about them. His sister in law is the current Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs, and i joke not, and i dont exaggerate by saying this, started this war by funding and designing the ousting of Viktor Yanukovych from Ukraine. Calling him lacking in neutrality is an understatement.
@@googleslocik Jeezus! D'you know, the more I hear about the various machinations and subterfuges associated with this conflict (the Yanukovych issue that you mention above; the far-right Azov movement being incorporated into the Ukrainian parliament, police force and the military; the sudden change of heart towards refugees by eastern European border countries; the treatment by Ukrainian border guards of non-white Ukrainian residents attempting to flee the country; NATO's mission creep along Russia's borders in contravention of the agreement between Secretary of State James Baker and M Gorbachev; Germany's Russian gas supply handcuffs preventing a truly unified/collective response by Putin's opponents; the West's strategic myopia towards Putin's way of thinking), the more my head spins!
well, it's not JP's fault for sure, but this was kind of a disaster... Unfortunately Frederick Kagan is not able to dive in this problem in the correct way. I never heard so many assumptions, looked like someone on the top comment from a random reddit thread saying some simple bullsht with his source: "dude trust me".
@@peterstapperfenne2436 well, if he's an expert and you care so much about labels, let's just say that his not high on the expert hierarchy... there's way better people independently of his stance.
Frederick is either naive or skillful at reinforcing his own assumptions. Talking about the defensive nature of NATO forces is just disingenuous given that Russia wanted to join NATO and was rejected. His involvement in Iraq speaks volumes of his expertise lol
OMG this is interview of "How Amerians think of Russians and Putin, tipical edition", because they think like that Russian and Ukrainian people are killing each other while America claiming moral superiority. This is just full of misconceptions and stereotypes. I hope Peterson can find someone not biased to interview, so actually provide an insight in complexity and devastation of this tragedy.
i'm glad that i'm not the only one who found that this episode is having less legitimate source. i lovw JBP, and i love how he open to learn for any information from any people. but this one is feels underrated. he keeps try like he was not sided with west or rusia. and saying both are wrong but putin is mostly is. cannot blame each side for this, but putin ...
@@LunaticAmadeus this interview has only one point of view, "what American intelligence sources trying to push for the Truth". That it, he might well belive it ( I doubt that). Peterson has a better undestand of Russian psychology then this clown. I think Peterson delegating this podcast because he is not a historian, but I would match rather hear what he got to say. Why people do what they do and how we can live with this now.
@@fellipedasilva99 Rubbish. If you think wars happen due to the ambitions of individual leaders you have yet to figure out why wars actually happen. If your so called opponent says 'don't send military equipment to here or else' and you keep on sending military equipment to that place, sooner or later your 'opponent' will snap. That was the plan long before 2014. Take either side in this war and you will live to regret it.
@1:02:07 Frederick Kagan very conveniently finds it hard to answer "Why now?". I think it makes sense given he is a "historian" who does not deal with "present" 🙂. I guess he will have very eloquent answer after 10-20 years!
That exactly is my ultimate question I have been asking over and over and all media sources(MSM) have little but assumptions towards any answer. Secondly, I do find it interesting that the media seems to not speak of one negative towards Ukraine, which makes them even less believable, as no human is perfect, like how the media is seemingly trying to paint Ukrainian government as being such!
I have a strange sense of deja vu to the beginning of Covid where when it started all of the experts said "don't worry this won't take more than two weeks or a month" and well we all saw how that went.
Only media outlets that have informed us objectively for the past 2 years about Covid, while having been critical of government stories and propaganda, should be trusted to inform us about the conflict in Ukraine.
The "expert" is lying trough his teeth. "We did not expand NATO when the USSR fell in 1992 ...we started in 1997 " Nobody said it was imidiate, it was the clasic slipery slope, or boiling of the frog. First East Germany, next Poland, Hungary and Czech Republic, then Bulgaria, Romania, Slovakia, Estonia, Latvia, Slovenia, next Albania and Croatia, Muntenegro, Macedonia...And now they taked about Ukraine joining Nato. Putin is Evil but he has a point and a legitamate complaint. These people don't honor their agreaments.
I'm always having trouble listening/believing someone who has an obvious bias towards the subject. I'll always have the idea that he's not telling the whole truth, or that he's purposely keeping some truth from us.
There's something to be said about our ability to recognize bias and dishonest discourse. You can tell when facts you know are being omitted, appeal to emotion or defensiveness appears. I think JBP let him off way too easy. Practically no opposition.
@@unitynofear7758 what is there to oppose? Not every argument is equal on both sides: the West has its evils, sure, but the KEY facts here are 1) that Putin is a dictator who murders his opposition; he's closer to Gadhafi than Biden or Trump, especially now 2) Russia's war against Ukraine is TOTALLY different than, the US invading the middle east AFTER 9/11, in order to root out threats to US/global security (i.e. terrorists, plus Saddam was a sadist). Putin is shelling children after NO attacks on Russians, simply because he fears the thought of Ukraine- a sovereign nation- deciding its own destiny (and yes, lining its borders with missiles to defend potential russian aggression, which we now see is quite warranted). The idea that Ukraine's and Zelensky are US puppets is just a bad-faith meme. It beggars belief that people are so obtuse about this.
So this guy is one of the 'intellectual architects behind the seige & strategy in Iraq'... We all know how that played out (NO WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION; THEY LIED) so we're supposed to listen to his take on this situation 👀... He's clearly well qualified to speak on the issue but from the introduction his perspective is baised. Don't mean to 'shoot the messenger' but I'll watch this later.
Ukraine is undergoing a psyopy turf propaganda war between a big gang with a strong leader and a propped up facade regime led by a puppet, who is partially supported by other WEF scum like Turdo, Biden, O'Macron and the rest of their ilk. No real good guys.....
Donbass has been under Ukrainian attack for so many years. People there are already living in condition of war. In Donbass people are burnt alive, pregnant women and children are tortured. That's genocide for so so many years. Donbass just asked Russia for help. Ukraine didn't follow the decisions taken in Minsk... War is never good. However, the propaganda coming from the west is simply not true.
yeah definitely a pro goverment pro military industrial complex expenditure and contracts kind of a guy show me the incentives ill show you the outcome. they would benefit immensely from this convenient excuse to use this good vs evil propaganda and cover themselves on the good side
I disagree with Kagan’s foundational assumptions right from the point where he was introduced as the architect of the surge in Iraq which I opposed. He is associated with and/or cites several neocon think tanks I dislike. However, I do agree with a few things Kagan said. I think he is probably right that Putin was never really a committed communist. He is probably correct that Putin is no friend of democracy, but then, neither am I. I think he is probably right that Putin views the world as out to get Russia. If so, I don’t blame him for thinking that and I think he is more right than wrong about that. It’s why I wish the US would stop poking the bear and why I opposed NATO expansion. I am willing to stipulate that Putin wants to destroy NATO, but I have been arguing for the destruction of NATO. But I think he got many things wrong and left out some important details. For example, he says US/NATO never promised Russia not to expand NATO, except they did. He’s right that the US helped Yeltsin, but neglects to mention that the CIA rigged Yeltsin’s election. That was publicly bragged about and front-page news in America. Likewise, I don’t think he mentioned the CIA-orchestrated coup against the democratically elected government in Ukraine in 2014. He says that post-the collapse of the Soviet Union there were several rebellions against Russian rule, but then goes on to say that US/NATO did not foment those rebellions. On this he is either hopelessly naive or deliberately lying. The CIA was behind several of them. He talks about NATO expansion as being a necessary buffer to protect NATO from the recent threat posed by the Soviet Union. Of course when NATO was being expanded the Soviet Union no longer existed. IMO, NATO should have been dissolved when the Warsaw Pact was involved and America should never have been a member in the first place. He says that the NATO alliance is purely defensive and has never acted offensively. It wasn’t acting defensively when it destroyed Libya. Kagan even repeats the claim that if you don’t buy into the official US/NATO/MSM narrative, you must be a Russian bot and supports silencing them. I will end with one more thing I can agree with him on: “How do you really know?” After a long history of lies from the US government from “Remember the Maine,” to the Iraq War and COVID-1984, whatever they say is happening with Russia and Ukraine I tend to believe the opposite is true. I have already seen cases where MSM has reported atrocities perpetrated by the Russian military that, upon further investigation, turned out actually to have been committed by the government of Ukraine. To me, this is similar to what we saw when the Trump administration and MSM claimed that “Assad gassed his own people,” that turned out all to be lies. I think you did a good job pointing out the things he got wrong. I admire your patience in being able to talk to these neocons without losing your temper.
@@irynarovna i find it even more amazing that people on RU-vid defend USA after, Iran Iraq Syria Libya and Afghanistan, where are all those WMDs ? Your opinion matters less than his because atleast he bothered to list out why he think what he think, you sound like Don Lemon protecting Jusie Smollet
This guy is spewing pure American rhetoric rather than genuine unbiased analysis of a very complex issue. A buffer is a demilitarised zone where neither NATO nor Russia has control.
exactly, they use double standards, have a buffer for NATO and not Russia. Not to mention a couple of years ago Russia was named official the enemy of USA. Russia never did that..
I agree. Especially the part about Ukrainians supposedly fighting like lions as if he even knows what's going on on the ground. There has been a tone of prapaganda going back and forth between the Russians and the West. This guy sounds like a Biden State Department spokesperson. Phases like 'blaming the enemy' is a clear giveaway, very Bushian/Clintonian terminology that's odd to find in an interview that one would suppose would be the exercise of the dialectic, rather than the rhetorical.
@Big Floppa Because the USA seems to define a buffer as being a country equipped with US military hardware and ruled by a government aligned to and funded by the USA. I don't condone what Russia is doing but make no mistake, the USA, Britain and the EU knew how this ended and have made the decision to sacrifice the ordinary men, women and children of Ukraine with the sole aim of crippling a resurgent Russia economically. We are lions led by donkeys!
sure, because the pact of varsovia was a peace loving demilitarised zone of peacefull farmers that dint ever shot a bullet against other country or themselfs. And the tibet region is a peaceful desmilitarased zone for buddist preast just chanting mantras, and vietnam, and korea, and the caucasus, and the etc etc etc... stop spewing you pure rusian rethoric.
Completely lost me at - Choosing victory: A plan for success in Iraq & intellectual architect for the surge strategy in Iraq, these are the people that never need to be heard from again … I’m still gonna listen tho just for the sake of having an open mind
@UC5PNQ2W4C30CM2gjBGk7sYQ That's a good catch. I didn't make the connection between Victoria Nuland and Frederick Kagan. It is a very dangerous road we're traveling right now, and being dishonest about the US's involvement in Ukrainian politics doesn't help the situation at all. Of the two options you presented, I hope that Jordan didn't do his homework. He did state that he cast a wide net and found this bottom feeder (my words, not his), through trusted relationships, not personal admiration. Either way, I like to hear everyone's point of view, and I'm glad this interview exists, and further thankful that you shed light on this very important connection.
This guy definitely seemed biased, I'd recommend interviewing John Mearshiemer, he's a foremost political theorist and has a very unbiased point of view.
He's totally anti Russia and anti Putin and it's not surprising when you realise his bother is neo con Robert Kagan and Roberts wife is Victoria Nuland... They have been interfering in Ukraine for years. This interview is just more propaganda. I don't blame Jordan for this but it has to be said.
This is a very one sided and unbalanced view of the situation. And not surprisingly. Kagan represents the American military might. The power that hired Zbigniew Brzezinski to develop a strategy to destroy Russia and adopted it as a long term strategy. This is not about Putin. All Russian and Soviet leaders were considered bad, crazy, etc. by the US and the west in general. Except for Gorbachev and Yeltsin who drove russia into poverty, chaos and submission. Inviting Professor John Mearsheimer would certainly add some balance to the views expressed by Kagan.
@@xxx5952 sure, but why even bother inviting this guest? Unless JP feels that the military with its vested interests is the best account to get opinions from? I'm truly puzzled by the logic here.
> Except for Gorbachev and Yeltsin who drove russia into poverty, chaos and submission Vs those who drove it to pride of being a major evildoer on the planet like Stalin and Putin? Lets be fair, Russia has not been very fortunate with leaders in its history. Not if you want to live a comfortable, safe and free life in any case.
@@mikhailmalakhov9967 "but why even bother inviting this guest? " Because maybe by listening to him, we will come to the conclusion, on our own, that Kagan is full of shit? I want to hear the people I dont agree with as much as the people I do! That's why you should let everyone talk! That's why we should never silence anything. That way we become smarter. Unless of course...you think some of us are too stupid to make up our own mind?
@@mikhailmalakhov9967 idk ... from what i saw from him JP isn't a bias oriented person and he isn't easily swayed by baseless opinions either , military is a weapon to serve political intersts so you can't put a line between the 2 espcially in times of war
Wouldn't this Kagan dude be the guy sitting with the CIA and NATO think tanks trying to devise plans within plans on how to try and dismantle Russia in 2 decades? Would be more than happy to hear on your show someone who can discuss in an unbiased way BOTH sides, NATO and their wants, vis a vis Russia and their needs.
If he wants to dismantle the most horrific monstrosity on earth, communist idiot empires, responsible for over 220 million souls murdered because of political ideology, then I'm ALL IN FOR THAT ONE.
Dismantle is such fanciful wording. Russia is not to be torn apart or disintegrated, all that needs change for it to become a strong Western ally is the restoration of democracy and the breakup of the oligarchy. We want a strong Russia, not some artificial patchwork of states under Western control.
I would expect a former professor of history to be a bit more critical, analytical and nonbiased when it comes to a serious matter like this one. He doesn't sound like a historian, he sounds like someone commenting about what they have read in the newspapers this morning with their wife. I just can't take him seriously.
Can you clear up what do you mean or maybe give most prominent examples of that (his biased opinion vs reality) from the talk? I think it's an interesting impression which many (western) people might not get at all.
exactly> There has been such a little critical analytical nonbiased assessment clearly shows the mass propaganda is in full swing! Elites (Jp included?) hv been very successful.
Why do we hear our experts refer to "The Ukraine?" In Russian, this refers to the periphery of Russia -- Russia's border area. Yes, Ukraine became a country when the Soviet Union fell but Crimea's desire to be independent was ignored and they were forcibly incorporated into Ukraine. Crimea always kept their parliament in place and functioning because, in their minds, they were always autonomous and never accepted their status as being just another provincial area of "The Ukraine." The Crimean parliament voted to secede after the U.S.engineered the coup in 2014 that removed the democratically-elected President of the country. It was the U.S. that chose the interim leaders. Meanwhile, their first order of business was to propose a law banning the use of the Russian language, and they did this while hanging pictures of the Nazi collaborator Stepan Bandera in government buildings. Bandera killed thousands of Jews and Poles and others, and Crimea, consisting mostly of native Russians wanted out of this nightmare and the parliament voted to secede and this was confirmed by an open referendum of the people, and they did secede. At that point, Russia then accepted them. The U.S. claimed the vote was a sham, but multiple western polling companies have verified the ongoing support in Crimea to be a part of Russia. The recent vote in the four regions of Ukraine to join with Russia was observed by international observers who all affirmed the vote was fair. You just can't get the truth from the government controlled mainstream media or our indoctrinated so-called experts like Frederick Kagan.
Yeah thats wonderful tale you have convinced yourself of. In reality though the interim.goverment was picked by viktor Yanukovych as planned to step down. When russia found out about this they sent a helicopter into ukraine.and removed him from the country and declared that he had been ousted by a us coup. They then sent russian troops into crime and took over the crimean parliment at gun point. They then held a referendum which is insanely illegal considering its not their fuxking country. The ballot of this sham referendum didnt have an option to remain apart of ukraine.
I’ve been devouring podcasts and interviews from you of late, and this is the first time I’ve struggled to watch through the whole video. I don’t know if it is the guest’s hubris or his language, but he comes across so unbelievably biased it’s hard to understand how this episode made it through the editing stage. I’m used to seeing intelligent and thought provoking discourse during these interviews, yet here I am seeing little more than “Russia bad, west good”. It’s terribly frustrating. I get the sense that you tried to keep the conversation more high level, but honestly, it feels like you were trying to corral a toddler.
I managed 3 minutes. This guy is a total neo-con and I cannot listen to that garbage for more than these three mins. What started this, is the U.S led coup in Ukraine during 2014. The funding of neo-nazi groups, including the Azov militia. Then Ukraine started attacking the Donbass and Crimea. They cut the water and power off to Crimea too. NATO has never stopped expanding and Russia has had enough. Putin warned us over and over again, but western leaders never listen. Putin tried to get the Minsk Agreement working, but it was ignored. On top of this, we are supposed to watch Iraq, Afghan, Libya, Syria, Yemen, Kosovo and right now, Somalia get bombed. But that's all good because it's our side. When Russia does it, they are the great Satan. Mindblowing.
Anyone bothered by Kagans’s unwillingness to see any faults on the West’s approach to Russia ? I mean Russia’s clearly an antagonist here but it felt like a one dimensional assessment on why they are the antagonist.
@@marvinburkholder8907 ukrainian people are those who overthrew dumb thug Yanukovich, not neocons 🤣 Why no credit to the Ukrainian nation and tens of dead and hundreds of injured at Maydan?
@@TheWytautas how sure are you about what you say? Did you ever thought it can be facked? Not too many live war scenes, compared to other wars. It makes you think if is not all a movie.
@@Vadiquevids I'm Australian, so I know little about it this I apologize, but in your opinion, do most Russians like or dislike Putin? I mean, if you could hold an election in Russia tomorrow, would he get voted out?
definitely a pro goverment pro military industrial complex expenditure and contracts kind of a guy show me the incentives ill show you the outcome. they would benefit immensely from this convenient excuse to use this good vs evil propaganda and cover themselves on the good side
@@anthonybrett almost every person I know is against this regime. But... You know bro there's no such thing as elections in Russia, he's been declaring himself president every time. It all for show, he's a dictator. Same with Lukoshenko in Belarus
@@Vadiquevids Wow. I feel like I'm sheltered here in Australia. Ive never lived in a country where we didnt vote for government. I feel spoiled. Take care mate, and thanks for the reply.
He is so biased that it was so hard to listen to straight from the beginning. His degree in Russian and Soviet war history from Yale? So the American version of Russian War history.. anyway, love you JBP! Keep the talks coming.
@@TheWytautas Do you know that US during 20 “centaury” has invaded, subverted and overthrown more countries and governments than any other country in the world since the world war 2?
I am a bit disappointed to see one of the brightest minds of today be clouded by someone who deliberately manipulates facts. As someone living in Europe, who knows more than filtered informations, I can say this gentleman Frederick is either stupid (which I dont think is a case) or dishonest. Oversimplification on some things, generalization on others, this man's story is a mish mash.
@@vladimirvucetic6933 what do you mean? Its just a figure of speach that its going to be something russia cant winn. The US equivalent of an unwinnable war would be "another vietnam" or also "another afghanistan"
@@l.h.9747 He literally said that the weapons will be provided to ordinary people so they can attack Russian forces. It will bring more devastation to country and risking of innocent lives of general population. Where's the effort to avoid conflict, instead of leading poor country to total ruin? That's the Afghanistan scenario isn't it?
@@vladimirvucetic6933 i thought you meant something else because an armed population isnt that unusualwith the most popular countries being the US and switzerland. If weapons are provided to ordinary people then it just gives them the means to defend themself and their country and if they have the confidence to hand out weapons go civilians then they clearly dont want the russian army in their country. Efforts to avoid conflict are a bit late when russia starts a full invasion of ukraine and "avoiding conflict" should never mean not resisting when your home gets attacked. What are you going to do next? Telling a women on the street that is getting mugged to not use pepperspray because it makes things complicated? The whole shitshow isnt getting better for russia on the political side because russia fully accepted the ukrainian borders from 1994.
@@l.h.9747 What are you telling that American Indians, Mexicans, Blacks in USA could be armed with stingers and javelins by EU, in order to defend their homes and beliefs and whatnot?!? As someone who lives in Balkans, I say stop to war whatever the cost! Children should be playing football, not with rifles. We don't want powder keg in neighborhood, we want our brothers in Ukraine living their lives.
With all my respect for Jordan, this guest started his speach... And assumption after assumption... Studying USSR at Yale doesn't make you a good expert sometimes. I'm from Ukraine, lived there most of my life, seen stuff, i have too much to say about how biassed it all seemed to me.
Sure, update: the fatty kept eating a lot and talking a lot and getting paid for the latter. It all seems to indicate that will be the permanent situation.
Pick it up on Bill Kristol's channel. One of Kagan's more "brilliant" predictions is that Bakhmut isn't happening, Soledar didn't fall, nor was Russia even capable of an offensive after the end of October. Know why? Shucks, it's because, "Russia has expended its conventional military capabilities, and can no longer undertake offensives. The initiative passed to Ukraine." Yep! 👍 @02.40, Conversations with Bill Kristol, "Frederick Kagan on Ukraine: Where Things Stand-and the Stakes for the Future," 10.26.22.
"It's a purely defensive alliance". If you still care about your rule 'tell the truth or at least don't lie', why have this guy on? NATO has carried out offensive bombing campaigns in Yugslavia, Afghanistan, and Libya. Claiming that NATO is "purely a defensive alliance" is a bald-faced lie, and not a helpful one at all if you're seeking to bring understanding to the present crisis.
"Russia is only retaliating against NATO expansion" that is why they invaded Moldova and Georgia and carried out several assassinations/poisonings in different countries. Central and Eastern European countries have nothing to worry about! Or will you tell me that freshly independent from Moscow-enforced socialist regimes countries, seeing Kremlin doing EXACTLY the same things it did several decades ago, would not be alert and try to defend themselves?
Just started to sneak into this conversation and I will comment later about it. But Jordan, this guy you are Interviewing is biased af! I am from Austria and watch this for 30 years unfold - We are not the better half or the good here - we became nations of hypocrites - it’s sickening - if we don't change our double standard thinking we’ll reap W3 - it's that simple..
Even as an anti russian eastern European this much propaganda without even the slightest most obvious counter argument from Jordan was a bit disappointing. He made some decent points but at least half was pure NATO propaganda that can at the very least be questioned quite easily
What a shameless propagandist. He shares not the facts but his own extremely biased opinion. I guess that is what he was taught. Dr. Peterson knows more about this subject that this so called "expert".
A western stooge! JP should bring on John Mearsheimer as a counter view, one that totally understands the complex issues regarding the Ukraine! Kagan is an academic idiot. JP please don’t help make me question you anymore than you have by giving this guy alone an authority on the Ukraine!
@@opinion4755 how is Iraq better now after 15 years of fighting insurgents who have lead to more bloodshed and suffering than if Saddam stayed in power
If my experience in China is relatable to what’s happening in Russia, I’d imagine a war with Taiwan won’t put Xi out of power, but strengthen his position. Putin is not going anywhere. This guy has no idea how totalitarian countries work. Another thing is, people in Russia live under authoritarian system and the Tsars for much longer than just the communism years, also similar to China, and that has very strong effect on how people handle authorities and on their cultures in general. Communism is the result of that culture, not the reason.
The desire for individual freedom spreads like wildfire among the politically oppressed once a spark is lit. Authoritarians are becoming endangered species. In 1750 they ruled the world.
I'm appreciative to have an expert talk about this topic for more than 5 minutes. Thank you for setting this up. That said, I think he came across as biased and emotionally manipulative. Maybe I'm too allergic to potential manipulation, but this guy felt like one of the "weapons of mass destruction are absolutely in Iraq. Take my word for it." types. I'm not inclined to believe these people. Even if they say the sky is blue at this point.
There didn't seem to be any in-depth discussion regarding the 2014 revolution in Ukraine. Frankly there wasn't much talk about the Ukraine at all. Dr. Kagan seemed more interested in denigrating Russia (deservedly perhaps, but not exactly helpful). There was a definite lack of nuance in his pro-west perspective, even if I don't entirely disagree with his conclusions. Still an interesting and informative chat. I learned a few things.
Curious guest choice by @Jordan B Peterson & no interrogation of the fact that Kagan's Sister-in-law is the USAs chief troublemaker in Ukraine & is on the record through leaked phone recordings Selecting the supposedly Democratically Elected Government & infamously saying '"F### the EU" regarding the latter's influence over what happens. Very disappointed by this running straight to a highly politicised NeoCon idealogue for a take on a situation that would have been better taken from a more neutral party & perspective.
FYI Rusia asked to join NATO was denied. While everyone even Turkey has been given the opportunity to join. Imagine Russia had an ever-expanding alliance that denied entry to the USA, but then asked Canada, Mexico, etc. to join placing military bases in these territories. This guy is full of it. When the USA asserts its power through less fair games through the hegemony it has of information systems is accepted, when Russians try to assert their existence and protect what is an ever-expanding alliance, that is seen as evil.
NATO exist as a defensive pact specifically to protect west from Soviet Union, and then Russia. Having Russia join NATO is like enlisting mafia into the police force.
@@IsshTM that’s a false equivalence. Russia held out its hand to bush in 9/11 and offered intel and more. It might seem NOW that Russia wants nothing to do with NATO and would be that mafia, but in the early 00s and post USSR fall, they were all for coming together. Also, what basis do you have calling Russia the mafia when the US itself can be condemned for its fun times bombing 33 other countries. Not to mention invading Vietnam and spreading false information. The thing is… a step in coming together is better than trying to condemn another country, cause that’s not going to lead anywhere. In what way is calling Russia a mafia going to bring us together?
There’s something that happens to his speech when he moves into lies, obfuscation and manoeuvring. Lots of great insight, and then he switches gears back to his pay cheque. All said with a gaping hole for acknowledgment of the abysmal suffering caused by equally illegal American war fronts in the last 20+ years. Let’s not measure this situation with righteousness that is not ours to own. .
It is hard to listen to an argument from one who starts from his conclusions, as it seems to indicate bias. I've heard credible arguments to the contrary which may not excuse the Russian behavior entirely, but certainly give it context which makes it seem less egregious. Of course, sitting here in my home office in the US, I have no idea what is true, but I would prefer sources approaching the issue with more humility and neutrality.
I completely agree ...I am from eastern europe and the information(opinions)as I understand here is a lot more different than the information(opinions) on the matter you have there in the USA. I would only ask do you know about the people who were burnt in Odesa, Ukraine or the those who were killed in Donbass? I do not agree with this war it is hell on earth, people are suffering, no human being deserve it but the same day there are few more bombings in other parts of the world and we didn't hear anything about them or the people dying there or the crisis there.
Frederick Kagan represents the western narrative. The Wall Street Journal issued on April 23rd 2022 an eye opening article about the actual Ukraine drama.
Dr Frederick Kagan and the NEOCONS are not the independent interlocutors whom i would ask what we should do in UkRAINE. They are loosers and behind every criminal war the USA lost since 9/11, which was a fake terror attack, very obvously planned by them. We Europans should keep these people at distance to avoid war and destruction at our front door.
he is first a junk food big consumer and gym hater who doesn't really have either the brains nor the guts to represent even himself. A total blahblahblaer... Really sad that this type of clowns often undeservedly have a discussion with J.P., while so many others who would truly deserve attention, don't and won't get it...
I would not trust these mainstream news sources. Ukraine Matters already debunked their narratives multiple times. They are mostly generating news for who ever pays them. One day it is China, another day it is some local politicians. Most of all they are Western and don't understand actual situation in Eastern Europe often just regurgitating Russian propaganda talking points. Even Johnny Harris thinks that RT is copy of Russian media, when it is just for Westerners unhappy about their government.
I'm surprised how naive this conversation turned out. Not at all Peterson's style. Let's remember that in geopolitics there are no good guys versus bad guys, but alternating victims and perpetrators over time. The harsh reality is that all there is in politics are interests and the Ukrainian war will continue or stop only if the interests of the countries involved are aligned or equally threatened.
i learned for however smart or powerful russia thinks they are, they’re scared little kids… i’m sure they have some inferiority complex, you can tell they don’t believe their own hype, basically they think they’re better/worse/ different but in proving themselves they end dig themselves into a hole. that will be russias legacy.
@@MrOBJECTIVETRUTH You'd be scared too if you had a history of being invaded and genocided by the world's most powerful military time and time again. But you're just some kid living life on easy mode in his mommy's basement.
Peterson knows he is out of his element, hence weak challanges. What I didn't know or even think about was the ultimate disposition of nuclear weapons after the Soviet fall. New Ukraine overnight with their very own bomb vs Russia wanting it back would make for interesting give and take negotiations.
Just an observation. Reading these posts. None of you seem smart. None of you exude intelligence to me. Both of the individuals in the video are trying to inform the public on a complex, volatile topic... And you are, logging in, talking shit. Quit it. Are you the kind of people who use the laughing emoji on Facebook as a way to piss people off? Those people are the worst. Don't be those people.
When you compare the online reaction to the Russian invasion of Ukraine to any of the recent American, British, German or French invasions in the last 30 years, you can understand why he thinks the world is against Russia, sanctions are never put on the UK or France or America for any illegal invasion ever
The anti-war protests against Iraq were bigger than the protests now against Russia. "Oh you're against Russian warmongering? Okay name every war and oppose them too!"
Usually JP talks to honest people. This guest is not a credible and independent source of information. What did west do wrong? He skipped that part. 1. Nato was not supposed to move towards Russia after 1991. There were agreements about that. 2. Nato bombings of Serbia. "Defensive alliance" you tell me? 3. Western support of orange revolution in Kiev 2014. Can you imagine russian officials walking around in the middle of illigal protests in another country and cheering for a coup? BTW it was Victoria Nuland, wife of this guy's brother. 4. After the coup: No condemnation, blind eye on nazis marching around and threatening russian population of Ukraine. BTW This was one of the reasons Ukraine lost Crimea and those eastern regions which are being bombed daily for 8 years now. P.S. In 1960 when Soviets installed rockets in a free country called Cuba, we almost got a nuclear world war 3. Do you expect Russia to sit and watch all this happening now doing nothing about Ukraine which was a part of it just 30 years ago. Still I would not support this invasion, but alteast try give you some wider view on the issue.
This guy represents the typical 'western expert'. Overweight PHD from liberal university, & professor, never seen a platoon up close but is an expert in modern military unit structure for urban engagement; sells books. Uses information he sees on MSNBC/twitter to form conclusions which he then regurgitates under his title of 'expert'. Makes hyperbolic claims regarding russian 'economic collapse' while in the same breath stating his ignorance in the most basic aspects of the russian economy & banking network. Ignores/fails to mention expansion of NATO to Russias border & the CIA backed color revolution. Makes hyperbolic claims regarding russias allies including Bashar Assad which he claims is a 'genocidal dictator'. Fails to mention any of the USA's invasions of numerous sovereign nations over the last 20 years. Claims the USA needs to ramp up defense spending (shocker) without mentioning key issues effecting our military such as lack of recruits due to cultural decay (obesity, drug abuse etc) & the ability to fight a war on two fronts (china, russia et al)
Putin recounted an event during his extensive pre-invasion speech on February 21. In 2000, when he first became president of Russia, he had proposed to then-U.S. president Bill Clinton that Russia join NATO and be integrated into Europe. It was an opportunity for America to seize. We can speculate as to why this opportunity was squandered, but I suspect that *Europe's leaders feared competing economically with a newly liberated Russia and that America's defense industry was reluctant to lose a geostrategic foe that had justified decades of huge military budgets.* The roots of this current conflict go back, most recently, to 2014, when *Barack Obama's State Department sponsored a coup* that toppled a duly elected Russia-friendly government in Kyiv and installed one that opposed Russia. Obama funded that so-called color revolution to the tune of $6 billion, and the notoriously corrupt nation became a feeding frenzy for the families and cronies of U.S. politicians, including the Biden family.
So basically Clinton said no (to Russia joining NATO). Never stated explicitly, but something along the lines of: "We Americans won, and no we don't want you one with us, but keep you as a bad guy, tamed.
This fact alone completely dismantle the whole conversation they had. The basis of evil Putin who confront holy democracy because of grief of Soviet greatness is so wrong and convenient for the US.
We had just gotten out of the Cold War with russia... why would we have trusted them lmao. Of course the american ppl would not have supported it... and the president represents the ppl.
I keep giving this episode a chance but even though I learned a few things, I want a do-over with a better guest on the topic; for the obvious reasons that the sharp audience has described.
I'm from a country which has it's 20% occpied by Russia. Maybe John Mearsheimer's lectures are something new to you but we've been hearing that same Russian narrative for years. About how NATO is a security threat to Russia, how its expansion irritates them and so on. You know what's a security threat for eastern Europe? Russia, which has repetedly occupied these regions both in times of Russian empire and USSR. So tell me, why should Russia have right to dictate the foreign policy of its former conqured territories? We are no longer living in imperialism era and John Mearsheimer's arguments are from that time. And do you guys actually think NATO is a security threar to Russia? And does NATO by it's protocol have a right to invade another country?
Kagan represents perfectly the hype and propaganda that is the blind ideology the neocons, and self-interest of the military-industrial complex - both of which absolutely dominate Washington DC. His exposition became increasingly brazen, and frightening, as the interview went on.
Kagan is very wrong about just about everything. Nothing new here. He might as well have been a news reporter spewing the same garbage as the rest of them. Question. The news has been so horrifically wrong about COVID, about the election integrity, about climate change.....etc......fill in the blank propaganda, non stop ............. ..........and all of a sudden, they're all suddenly telling the truth about Ukraine? Please.
I think you simply forget about the population composition of Russia. There is a mix of dozens and dozens ethnic groups and federative units living in the Russian Federation, who by no extent can identify themselves as western.
To add to this: Russia--with the former USSR--is Asian and European. Second, Asian conquerors via the Mongols/Scythians played a huge part in early Russian government and culture. Asia tends toward autocracy. Alexander Blok The Scythians (1918) [Offered in part] Millions are you - and hosts, yea hosts, are we, And we shall fight if war you want, take heed. Yes, we are Scythians - leafs of the Asian tree, Our slanted eyes are bright aglow with greed. Ages for you, for us the briefest space, We raised the shield up as your humble lieges To shelter you, the European race From the Mongolians’ savage raid and sieges. Ages, yea ages, did your forges’ thunder Drown even avalanches’ roar. Quakes rent Messina and Lisbon asunder - To you this was a distant tale - no more. Eastwards you cast your eyes for many hundred years, Greedy for our precious stones and ore, And longing for the time when with a leer You’d yell an order and the guns would roar. This time is now. Woe beats its wings And every adds more humiliation Until the day arrives which brings An end to placid life in utter spoliation. You, the old world, now rushing to perdition, Yet strolling languidly to lethal brinks, Yours is the ancient Oedipean mission To seek to solve the riddles of a sphinx. The sphinx is Russia, sad and yet elated, Stained with dark blood, with grief prostrate, For you with longing she has looked and waited, Replete with ardent love and ardent hate. Yet how will ever you perceive That, as we love, as lovingly we yearn, Our love is neither comfort nor relief But like a fire will destroy and burn. We love cold figures’ hot illumination, The gift of supernatural vision, We like the Gallic wit’s mordant sensation And dark Teutonic indecision. We know it all: in Paris hell’s dark street, In Venice bright and sunlit colonnades, The lemon blossoms’ scent so heavy, yet so sweet, And in Cologne a shadowy arcade. Join us! From horror and from strife Turn to the peace of our embrace. There is still time. Keep in its sheath your knife. Comrades, we will be brothers to your race.
The Ukrainians fought valiantly against the Mongols. Russia surrendered, ran away or collaborated and integrated with them. It explains so clearly why Russia/former USSR has never had a good ruler they have always been the worst sub human dictators and tyrants.
The Russian population is set to halve in the years ahead from 140m to 70m. Russia is a basket case regional power at best with a failed economy, and a failing military. Putin has turned them into North Korea. A Pariah State. Difficult to see a way back from that. They have lost hegemony in the world completely and utterly. The fact that only the likes of Venezuela, Cuba, Syria, Myanmar, North Korea supported them at the UN tells us everything we need to know about their present day status and massive fall. Putin's war was a reckless gamble to try and remain relevant and it is failing badly. The Ukrainians are giving them a bl00dy nose.
This is a perfect example of what JP mentions so often in his interviews, namely that people do not just see the same facts and maybe interpret them differently but they actually see different facts, they see different realities. I am about the same age as F. Kagan and I also visited the first McDonalds in Moscow but that is all the common thing in our reality. I definately lived in a very different history - or let us say reality - than he. And I am not Russian.
@@Nature_Consciousness This is why I've been saying that dialogue is necessary. To bridge the gap, to understand other. You can easily go find the other side of the story, and it's quite different to say the least. Now you have western media censoring russian news because it's propaganda. How clean exactly is the track record of western media? How about the leaders sit down and have some serious dialogue? Don't leave until they have an agreement, a plan to move forward. Do you know what they do instead? Whip their dick out and start flaying it about and calling each other names. Calling each other "enemy" and "evil". There's only one future where this path leads.
@@seanleith5312 You are LITERALLY describing the incompetence and corruption of the Xiden administration. It is also EXACTLY why Putin invaded NOW, because he clearly perceives Xiden's weakness and he knows it's now-or-never if he wants to expand Russia's powerbase. Frankly, it is a shrewd and calculated move on his part. Strategically, he's playing chess while Xiden is playing checkers.
@@Jaze2022 I dont think dialogue would do any difference, Putin has already made his mind and he is old, old people almost never change. I agree that dialogue should be priority, not painting each others as enemies, but it is a insanely deep problem that is present everywhere in any subject, it is human nature to do that and very few people can have a fully understanding of both sides in any conflict.
@@seanleith5312 good that you give away nuclear weapons. For all of us. The only assholes that ever used them and thus committed genocide against Japanese people are US and A. Unnecessarily to be mild.. Wish all the Ukrainians and Russians to finish this soon
...he managed to avoid answering the question about what portion of responsibility the west shares and how. I'm not absolving Russia but this guy isn't bringing up the nuclear treaties falling apart, the movement of missiles, the threat of nukes in Ukraine, the sanctions put in place following the 2016 election, the deployment of THAAD systems in Europe subverting MAD, and a lot of other VERY important stuff.
As soon as Jordan asked about USA/NATO's missteps and responsibilities, he couldn't change the subject fast enough. I KNEW he would never get back to that subject.
This guy is neither a politician, nor an expert in the subject. He may understand much and give us his opinions, but that should be it, why should you encourage people to speculate when speculation holds (potentially) a lot of responsibility?
What business is that of Russias? If Russia is not threatening eastern Europe they have no reason to be worried. Russia is a joke of a country, hypocritical, insecure and warmongering. Desperately trying to retain its influence in countries that want nothing to do with it
@@bdragon1445 Of course he does not want to talk about the west in this conflict. They never do. This war was inevitable unless the Minsk accord was implemented. 8 Years of shelling with no end in sight was the main driver I suspect.
@@peterpeter4254 Of course, because the West is capable of no wrong, is not to blame for anything, ever, and anyone who thinks otherwise is an anti-western communist traitor and Al Qaeda sympathiser etc. Simply pointing out, as Mearsheimer does, (for example) that Russia does not want American/NATO forces on the Russian-Ukrainian border, a mere stones throw from the Russian heartland, that Russia considers eastward NATO expansion and Ukrainian membership of NATO a direct threat to its security interests and that the West, often despite knowing this, has gone ahead and done those things anyway without any regard for Russia's concerns or interests and then poured fuel onto the fire with many of their subsequent actions is not necessarily to be 'anti-western' or "hate the west" since it does not logically follow that believing the west has pursued stupid, mistaken and/or nefarious policies and is to blame for the Ukraine crisis and sequent war means you have hate or ill-will towards the west as a result. For example, if I were to say to someone that a family member has, hypothetically, committed stupid or nefarious acts and is therefore to blame for any negative consequences those acts entail does not necessarily mean that I harbour any hate or ill will for that particular family member, I could love that family member dearly for instance. Regardless of Mearsheimer's emotional attitude to the west, which is itself irrelevant and certainly not symptomatic of being wrong (morally or factually), he is completely right regardless.
This guy is a strong supporter of United States dominance of the globe since World War II. Why would you have him on to break things down? Just seems totally one-sided perspective
I just checked and I remembered correctly. Kagan is one of the architects of "The Surge" in Iraq in 09-10. Totally unrelated to this, how many strikes do we allow a policy analyst/advocate before we call them 'out?'
This guy is literally part of a family that has significant responsibility for the current situation. He's a neo-con, and his brother Robert (also a neo-con) is married to Victoria Nuland (i.e. his sister in law) Nuland was instrumental in the US orchestrated overthrow of Ukraine in 2014 and installing the anti-Russian puppet regime (which included actual neo-nazi members) there.
Ironically, while I'm not a fan of powerful tech, your angst towards social media was likely highly influenced by a narrative cast by Russian ops. So many on social media were finely tuned to Russian messaging. That's his point.
The guy lost me in the beginning when he stated " Russia made an ' un- provoked' attack on Ukraine. When Peterson took so long introducing him and his 'mile-long' credentials, I expected better. 1) Ukraine banning the Russian language.2) Killing innocents in the Donbass.3) Threatening to join NATO.4) Cutting off the Dneiper River from Crimea. 5) Discarding Russian Orthodoxy for the Turkish variety. No Sirree Bob, Mr.Kagan, there is one credential you sorely lack : COMMON SENSE. J.P. tried to get past your obfuscating, but your anti- Putin venom is as evident as the main- stream media. Its no wonder US foreign policy has been in so much mess. J.P. please have Retd.Gen.MacGregor on to repudiate to your listeners the two hrs.of claptrap from Mr.Kagan, imo.
Jordan, for a counter viewpoint, you may want to get John Mearsheimer as a guest on your show. He lays everything that is happening in the Ukraine for the past decade or more at the feet of the USA. I do not subscribe to that theory. But it would be interesting to have him & Frederick Kagan go at it with you as a moderator. Yes? No? Maybe? P.S. - His views are in a recent article in The New Yorker magazine :-)
It would then also be great to have Timothy Snyder there, too. I saw Mr Mearsheimer's lecture about how the Ukraine is, in his opinion, the West's fault. While he does have some point, I think he is wrong after all and has completely misunderstood Putin's true motivations, which is something Mr Snyder excels at explaining. Even if you listen to Putin's speech from before invasion, he only mentions NATO ''expansion'' about two-thirds in, it is really not what is driving him.
I am absoluteley no expert on this subject, but I heard a good talk from John Mearsheimer called "why Ukraine is the fault of the West" (it's on RU-vid) and I found found that Mearsheimers' arguments were a lot stronger than what Ferderick Kagan is saying in this podcast. Would be great if JP would invite Mearsheimer as well.
I wanted to watch this but I guess I'll watch Mearsheimer then head on back here. Thanks for the recommendation. Been looking for an objective discussion on the matter.
The problem with Mearsheimer is that he conveniently omits the fact that the world is not a grand chessboard where only big powers play. Smaller nations such as Ukraine have a voice too. People in those nations have a voice too. They might want their countries to join military and economic unions, which they believe to best protect their interests. I am Ukrainian and I could not care less about the geopolitical interests of the United States, Russia or whoever else for that matter. As soon as someone invades my country militarily and starts killing people, he is the enemy, and those who give me weapons to fight are my friends. Russia has been a threat to the very existence of a distinct Ukrainian nation for centuries. The major Western threats used to come from Poland and Germany, but those are history now, as far as I am concerned. As a Ukrainian, I want Ukraine to join NATO and integrate with the European Union. I do not want to call and message my family ten times per day to make sure the next Russian bomb has not killed them.
I listened to Mearscheimer's talk. Nothing but a west narcissist. He does not take into account Ukrainian's will to withstand Russia, nor the centuries-long tradition of hostility between Russia and Ukraine (at which Ukrainians had to loose most of the time, at an expanse of millions of people lives). Let Mearscheimer better bring peace to the middle east, if his hands are more than apt.
Kagan's sister in law is Victoria Nuland, literally the woman on the ground in Ukraine in 2014 tasked with overthrowing and installing a new government. Tapes were released of her and an associate talking about this that included her saying F the EU.
Sad to see Peterson fall so far from truth. He’s completely controlled by “them”. I saw him on tour in Austin, TX when Dave Rubin was his handler. I find it interesting that when he mysteriously fell ill and near death, his family flew him across the world to Russia for treatment. Very interesting….
@@michaelbrainerd9746 Peterson's treatment for his condition at top facilities in US or Canada (can't remember where exactly) were not making his symptoms go away as those facilities were still keeping him on benzos. They sought whatever they can and as it happens his son-in-law is Russian so they tried finding treatment in Russia for his addiction and withdrawal. There's no "very interesting" ulterior motive.
@@AhmetCanK that’s incorrect. He had to go to Russia because they are the only Country that can safely put somebody in a coma to get through the benzo withdrawals, or some cynical Russophobes might say the only country willing to do so, because apparently benzo is hellish to get off and Jordan obviously didn’t have the strength to go through that whilst lucid.
While I appreciate bringing on this guest to shed light on the situation in Ukraine, his clear bias detracted from the conversation. Throughout the whole discussion on multiple occasions I couldn’t help but think “Man just give me the facts, not your gospel.”
Completely agree with you. Russia recently has become the boogeyman in American politics for years now. How is it that the west is guilt free with regards to the relationship between them
Clearly. Also, i didn't like the smugness in his whole attitude. Also, didn't like how he almost looked glad when talking about the devastating effects on Russian civilians.
Cool interview if you're interested in the US narrative. Now it would be interesting a follow-up interview with a russian professor of history with a PhD in American military history from Moscow University.
@@peterpeter4254 It doesn't take a PhD to notice the underlying patriotism here. I'm no friend of Putin, but America has been trying to prop up this neoconservative facade for far too long. Imperialism is still the way of the world.
very hypocritical given their (the Kagan's) role in the Iraq war....why is it OK for the US to invade Iraq but not OK for Russia to invade Ukraine? Not saying it is, but one would expect some reflection on Kagan's part here, otherwise one might suggest that Kagan might not be the one to interview about this issue due to his conflict of interest and/or distinctly neocon views....if you look into Victoria Nuland's (sister in law) role in Ukraine in 2014, one could also ask whether there might be some argument that the US (and other Western nations) is/are provoking Russia by advancing a quasi-NATO agenda on the Russian borders....so much hypocrisy out there in politics these days and super sorry to hear it on Dr. Peterson's channel....be careful listeners about the neocon message here inherent with talking to someone like Frederick Kagan, and do your research, the information is available to everyone who wants to find out the truth and knowing the counter argument (as someone recommended below with the Mearshimer speech) seems really important
i feel like kagan has a strong bias against russia and its great to see jordan asking difficult questions and i am more than happy to see that the comments are so diverse and give different points of view, i do not agree that you can simply say russias attack was unprovoked regarding the events that took place since the end of the cold war regarding nato expansion. but i also think its an intresting question as to why russia doesnt just join the nato. to me it seems like its the usa that would never allow that to happen
yeah so weird to have a bias against a criminal autocracy, which murders journalists, political opponents, commits rampant warcrimes and attacks other nations unprovoked.
He's against the globalists, and rightly so, which is exactly what NATO are. The same globalists who have been f&*king us in the ass for the last 2 years !
Wow, I've not seen a JBP guest ever be this biased on a subject. The research to interview this Kagan guy seems rushed and not fully vetted. I would welcome another expert to be interviewed but that most likely won't happen on this channel again. Part of me also wondered if JBP's body language was illustrating some discomfort and him just not wanting to call BS on some of what Kagan was stating as fact. Sometimes I was swapping out this scenario between Truckers and Trudeau.
Mr. Kagan's claim that NATO expanded to include the Baltics in order to create a "buffer" is fallacious. By including those neutral countries in NATO, the opposite was achieved: the buffer was eliminated, and NATO ended up smack on the Russian border. The "buffer" consists exactly in having neutral countries between two potential adversaries. Finland and Sweden are a buffer. The Baltics are NOT a buffer, they are members as much as Belgium: unless, the NATO wisemen are not serious about defending them in case of an attack and are prepared to sacrifice them to preserve the "core" members, the clean ones. BTW, none of the above justifies Russia's aggression against Ukraine, but we may hope to have a more complete and a less biased analysis from an expert, who does know a lot about Russia.
I thought the same thing about the supposed responsibilities of, let's be honest, the US in swating hostiles out of "ally" countries. They would never come to aide the US in any capacity and that voluntary responsibility, like you said, would keep us from maintaining distance from an invasion response in any NATO member. That's why U🏗 wants membership but should be rejected in my eyes.
I am Russian. And war is awful no matter where - Iraq, Libya, Yugoslavia or Ukraine! After listening and reading some comments two thoughts strikes me. Negative: this PhD guest certainly has some knowledge about Russia and “mysterious Russian soul”) Unfortunately he is describing it from “one side view” forgetting facts, which are not in line with “desired goal”. Consciously or not. Positive: many people in US are putting up same questions like I do! P.S. Remember Sting? “Russians love their children too…”
I quite agree, most of what I heard are opinionated statements of what is this and that without telling any evidence of 'how' it came so, only why, and not on a concrete level. Certainly confused why there's a PhD in Russian Military History in Yale of all places but I'm not here to judge, just that I think it would have been better (yet impossible) to have a Russian military officer express his thoughts on the matter, or it'd be also interesting to hear the side of the Russians that actually support's Putin's actions because it's difficult to pry the perception of peoples on Russia's motivations on the ground level. It's easy to talk about Bolshevism and Communism but it's hard to pinpoint their concrete influences on this war. Any thoughts about any of it?
@@thenarrator1921 there could be a full size lecture! And not even one!))) Try to make it short and point out just one thing. Money and power (which means money also) rules the world. The one who owns energy and minerals will gain extra power strategically. Russia one of the most rich country from this point. Definitely there are powers in the world who would like to have “his hand” on it. Who in the world feels to be strong enough to be able to do it? For that Russia should be as weak as possible. More than a decade Russia was open and friendly towards Europe and US. Ignorance of Russia’s interest was the result.
What is other side view? tell us. What is the reason of occupation of Georgia or Ukraine? Why did you massacred 300 000 Chechens? Why Russians did the Genocide of Circassians? Why are not you letting almost 1/5 of Georgians to enter their homes? give us your other side view.
@@farzana6676 where is US interest is ending then? Iraq? Libya? What about neighbourhoods? Russia, different from US, cares only what is the situation in neighbouring countries from Russian security point of view. They are as free as Cuba or Mexica if they decide to place Russian missiles
A few days ago Putin revealed publicly for first time that during talks with Bill Clinton, he proposed Russia joining NATO, but his proposal was received coldly and went nowhere. It’s important to understand that there’s a major chasm between modern West and modern Russia and it’s about basic values (and if you speak Russian, you’ve heard Putin talk about this directly). Russia as a society is not supportive of LGBT and “transgenderism” and similar “progressive” ideologies. The vast majority of Russian population believes in traditional Christian family values and see Europe’s “progressive” policies as degradation of society. Ukraine’s government is ready to accept these values but the Russian government and people are not. Here’s a small but interesting example on this subject. Ukraine’s propaganda machine created a myth of a super ace “Ghost of Kiev” that’s eliminating all of Russia’s Air Force, who has now been declared a pan sexual transgender woman pilot. This conflict is not about territory or even resources, it’s about national security, national values and national sovereignty of Russia. Putin might be a dictator, but Zelensky is a puppet. Ukraine is not democratic, nor sovereign. This same scenario played out in Georgia, then Armenia and now it’s playing out in Ukraine. Same script. That aside, Westerners are also missing the history and basic context of this conflict. I’m huge fan of JP, but I would encourage him to bring another expert how has a differing POV from Kagan. Someone that would illuminate the territorial claims set in context of history, the conflict in Donbas that has been raging from 2014 and other important facts that Westerns have no access to.
Russia as a society is not supportive of LGBT and “transgenderism” and similar “progressive” ideologies - yes, but neither is Ukraine or Poland or any other Eastern European country. And it's disgusting to accept the agenda in exchange for Javelines, but what can we do having a neighbour like Russia with Putin?
@@Io-Io-Io I am not from Ukraine, I am from Lithuania, and as for divided countries it looks like the US and Canada are much more divided than Ukraine (at least based on what I saw during recent years).
As a Bosnian, I'd say that Eastern Europe places ethnic pride/nationalism/patriotism and tradition near the top of the hierarchy. And it also helps explain why Communism/Socialism is more appealing in that part of the world. The ideas of equity and undemocratic rule are much more attractive in collective societies with high levels of social trust. A huge part of social trust, and even empathy, is about similarity. It's very hard for very diverse nations to understand this.
Concur. You can see your remarks come to life with the Ukrainians interpersonal communication and empathy for one another at a time that is extremely difficult. Diverse cultures are not good at being compassionate for different peoples. I’m shocked at the calls of racism by MSM on the war refugee migration westward.
@@TheDolphinTuna -Indeed...there's actually a fascinating chapter in the "Rivals" book by Bill Emmott where he gives his perspective on "social capital", in that the northern countries of Europe with their culture of co-operation with, and trust of institutions operated in a better (or at least different) way from their southern (read; Italian/Sicilian/Spanish) counterparts, which have a history of non-trust in public institutions, such as the police. This is why a counter-institution like the Mafia could form there, and why corruption is rampant. The northern areas became more successful at things such as infrastructure, building, and in creating and maintaining institutions and facilities like public works, hospitals, or insurance systems, as well as do better in innovation and trade. Northern Europe, and their defacto extension countries of Australia, the US, Canada, and NZ are based on such Northern European values...while 2nd, and 3rd World ones are primarily Spanish/Southern based ones. (I would say a nation like Argentina could be an exception, but they've had tin-pottery as well).
Just listening to Mr Kagan. He said "NATO is a purely defensive alliance, there is absolutely no offensive provision in the NATO charter anywhere". He also said "NATO is a security alliance gaining a buffer for the west" . When he described Russia threatening to over run all of western Europe and "that was the threat against NATO was formed". If that is the case for NATO, been purely defensive why was NATO in Lyibia and the middle east? Just trying to understand.
Why I don’t understand why Russia is still a TOTALITARIAN system?? Do you know?? Why Russians are not smart enough to build a system that work for all!! Why courage Russians get arrested when they protest?! Why Russia dose that Putin wants!!
@@erdis2072 have you followed recent events in Canada? The response to protests against lockdowns from governments all over the western world? Have you noticed how our media and social media platforms are censored? Have you noticed people getting fired from their jobs and slandered if they question the dogma in the last years? What I'm trying to understand is why is the west still a totalitarian system, and why is it that people believe the same propaganda used to take away their freedoms and mandate experimental vaccines on them for profit, that was just getting exposed, why do they believe the exact same propaganda rhetoric now just because it has been directed at Russia when what is happening it is so obviously provoked in order for us to conveniently forget the scandal of the plandemic as we shake in fear of WW3?
In Ukraine Ukrainian- speaking, local dialects- speaking and Russian- speaking people lived together, people did not paid attention to language, the problem started after 2000, when Ukraininan govt became acutely nationalistic and started to put pressure at Russian speaking people: this is Ukraine, speak Ukrainian!- even if an Eastern part of Ukraine ( Donetsk/ Lugansk, Crimea, etc) was given to Ukraine by Russians, they just moved the birder inside of their own country. In the beginning entry exams to universities students had to pass in Ukrainian, before it could be in Ukrainian or Russians. It means parents of young children will want all subjects at schools even in cities be taught in Ukrainian, even in cities, even in Russian- speaking families. Children started to say to their Russian- soeaking parents at home: speak Ukraininan, it is Ukraine! Also as results, Ukraine has ultra- nationalistic militants. U can see in videos that Ukrainian speaking young people came to Eastern Ukraine, where Russian speaking people live come with the locals to the street signs in Russians and confront Russian- speaking person: why this name is in Russian yet? Russian- speaking part of Ukraine voted for Yanukovitch, because he promised for Eastern part of Ukraine to keep 2 languages as it was before. To speak your own language and have education in it is your basic human right. To take it away in 21 century is barbaric and is violation of human right. Also if people in Lugansk/ Donetsk organised their own referendum- it was their right to express their will, it is freedom of expression and freedom of choice. But what is in American interests is “ right”, regardless what is going on
I appreciate the conversation with this guy - he articulates the pro-NATO position very well. It would be nice to listen to someone - equally articulate and knowledgeable - from the other side.
@@TheWytautas you're an example of the reason the world is so volatile - totally consumed by your own opinion that you can't even conceive of the fact that you might have something to learn from someone you disagree with / might be wrong
@@cleesely yeah leat's ask autocratic propaganda, state own press, what they think, why not. Maybe you should ask Alexey Navalny, the guy Putin was trying to poison?
@@TheWytautas I remember the same types of emotional pleas about Sadaam killing his own people in a prelude to invasion. The very same people who then turned on the Bush administration for murdering millions upon millions of Iraqi children. Do us all a favor, shut the fuck up.
Although I do sense that asking the question "Who stands to gain more from this conflict?" always brings me back to both the US and China (because economically both EU and Russia will suffer greatly from all these sanctions). A weak and distracted Russia and EU are like toys for other superpowers to take advantage of. The military industrial complex in America, EU, middle east, and China is rubbing it's hands right now with all the additional sources of revenue this will bring, and their lobby in the US is already one of the most powerful there is. Money talks. Regardless, the countries caught in the middle of these power struggles, and the people (on both sides) that fight the wars for the so called moral highground they claim to represent, always result in the people caught in the war (aka regular civilians) will suffer and die. Good hardworking people, that want nothing more but to live an ordinary life with their family and friends. The US claiming they have the moral highground when they've done so many things, even in recent wars, that are reprehensible as well (and so called warcrimes) that are never punished or brought to light by their own admission neither. No-one can claim the moral highground in war, because the war shouldn't have started to begin with. Designing weapons that are trying to figure out the most effective way to whipe "your enemies" off the face of the earth, rather than going into a discussion of mutual understanding and finding common ground to avoid war alltogether. But that's an ideal I don't think humans will ever achieve. The truth is so hard to find. I guess that's why believing in god(s) is so alluring to people, trying to simplify complex concepts so we don't have to think too hard about our decisions anymore. It's not the people on the ground committing the war crimes that are responsible for them, it's the powers that be that allow for the opportunity for them to take place in the first place. This is showing a sad aspect of human nature and a true darkness that most of us do not want to be drawn to or shed light too, because it's too confrontational to our own deepest darkness that's inside of everyone. I hope the light, and love, prevails, but harsh lessons are never learnt from history it seems, and the world is still shaped by conflict. As long as we cannot put this ugly side of human kind behind us, finding ways where we as a race can prosper is going to be a long and bumpy road, with no clear end in sight.
@@uwontrememberthis My heart goes out to you guys. Keep love in your hearts as you go through this dark part of European history. Let's hope we immerge stronger and more united out of this.
@@kaladinbdo totally agree! It’s important to keep our hearts clean during scary times like these. But, to be honest, it seems like most of the people in my country have submitted to hate and fear - laughing at corpses, wishing the very worst to people they’ve never met. But some people still just want this to end, they don’t feel like submitting to any ideology. Although propaganda works astonishingly great, because it’s fueled by a strongest kind of fear - fear for your friends and family. But, at the same time, I found new life perspectives during these four days. I feel like I got stronger already. That’s worth something. Thank you again for your kind words.
Very interesting talk. Thought 30 or so minutes in, I’m almost only hearing good things about NATO. If we’re to be honest NATO has a lot of blood on their hands also. I’ll watch till the end and hopefully this changes to more truthful conversation. For example bombing of Serbia. To be clear, I’m not criticizing dr Peterson, but the guest who seems to be an expert on the matter
Well there was a little ethnical cleansing going on in 1992-1995 (a proven one, not false pretexts that Putin uses). NATO is another pretext that the Russians use to justify this madness
it is not clear to me what you mean by mentioning the bombing of Serbia. It is a country responsible for much of the deaths, grief and pain in the Balkans and also convicted of genocide in BiH. Serbia is a Russian satellite and is ready to do something similar today, which Russia is doing now.
@@Ivica993 Yes, Milosevic regime was responsible for a lot of war crimes, however, it is not simple as that. All sides had their crimes according to their capabilities. (Communist Yugoslavia was doomed,) And NATO didn't bomb Serbia because of the Bosnian war, but Kosovo. Kosovo Albanians were armed by the US (CIA), and they were terrorists in a sovereign country. Also, people on the west don’t know, KLA was a terrorist organization, but they’ve became the partners of the west. And there was a solution, but the west wasn't interested in that, they offered Serbia a deal which was impossible, just like Austro-Hungary did before WW1. Even historian Christopher Clark admitted that this was an unacceptable ultimatum towards Serbia. This was the first NATO intervention on European soil, and it was done without the backing of the UN Security Council. Oh and, Kosovo Albanians lived with all the privileges like other people in Serbia and were never provoked to rebel and attack local Serbian residents. Not to talk about targets of NATO, and civilians they killed. Now, I’ve given you a very short answer, and maybe I shouldn’t reply to this at all, because it is impossible to communicate via comments and get message across. My initial comment was intended to open up a conversation, and maybe be analyzed without bias in a podcast. I must be biased because I’m from Serbia. 😊
I was honestly very happy to get a better understanding of this whole situation by this conversation, but this guy said nothing that people haven't already had thrown in their faces. Every story has two sides, and even though Russia may clearly be in the wrong, its unbelievable that this guy can't place any blame on the west, not even once. "We'll get back to the criticisms in a minute" but never does. "It's important to lay blame on your enemy first and make it clear they are wrong" no actually I don't think so, it's important to recognize where you went wrong and how you can prevent something again first. I cant believe I sat through this guy's entire political speech
I'm a proud American of sorts, but I picked up on that too. Well said. It seemed like Dr. Peterson tried to coax an explanation or reason for Putin's actions other than what amounts to "can't you see he's just deranged" .. but I'm almost halfway through and I don't feel like this explanation is coming.
Yeah, this kills me: "We are not trying to lie and Putin creates false universe" 1:09:35 Suggesting that US doesn't lie, is just... insulting.. It would be stupid af for US to don't use lie as a political instrument, and only stupid people can believe there is a government, which doesn't lie. So what I hear from Mr. Kagan is "hi, viewer. you are stupid". And how Mr. Kagan doesn't doubt a second that Putin believes in everything what he says about USSR, which is clearly mostly done to rise Russians morale... I just can't...
I thought the same thing. I'm very disappointed by the episode. The confidence with which the guy speaks about such things makes you doubt his words even more. Also not a single try to look at the situation from another perspective, the guy just keeps pushing his narrative.
It would be great if JBP will have a podcast with John Marsheimer, Vladimir Pozner and other with different viewpoints. Although im not all agree with them but its needed having these discussions with genuine purpose to understand the problem. Trump phenomenom and the collapse of trust for the government in many liberal countries all around the world might be related to why this thing happend now.
This is complicated but I think Trump like to see things as businessman not much as politician. And lot of foreign policy based on the big budget US spend in military and he sorted it off. If we flashback during his meeting with EU, we see Trump bashed about NATO ripoff and weirdness of sanctions for Russia.
yes please, Jordan Peterson is such a great podcaster, but I doubt Frederick Kagan is been objective enough here to rely only on his opinion. Especially this is clear when he says "We are not trying to lie and Putin creates false universe" 1:09:35 I won't ever believe that there is a country in the world, which doesn't ever use lies as a political instrument.
Collapse of trust? If there was any trust in fake democracy in the west in the first place. Just look who and how few are even voting for at least 4 decades. No say to whom we are allowed to vote for. No grass roots civic interest. No communication from elected officials. We get what we sow. If we don’t wake up and form grass root movements in every town ,village and city block, we are doomed to be ruled with iron fist communist like JT or other.
1:29:28 this is the problem with the line of logic this guy is following. What do you mean "there are no Americans in Ukraine"? Since 2014, NATO have been training 10,000 troops a year, on average, in Ukraine. They've been supplied with weapons all the time. All you need to understand is that Russia cannot afford Western allies to incorporate Ukraine in their alliance, cause that means they can park their weapons on the border. It's so simple. All you had to do is listen to Putin's speeches, like... 2-3 speeches per year, for last I don't know ... 10 years? But, you decide to ignore that (cancel culture) and come up with all sorts of "imperialistic" arguments to support your agenda. What's even worse, there's no evidence of imperialistic tendencies in any of his (Putin's) talks. If you want to negotiate a peace, you can listen to Russia and come to terms. But that's not the goal and it's painfully obvious.
Few months before the special operation, Russia sent two separate letters to NATO HQs and Washington, requesting guarantees that Ukraine won't join the alliance, all the military in Eastern Europe to be withdrawn (that got there from 1997, I think, onwards), among other things. They ignored it. There's an, as I said, painfully obvious agenda here, and that is ... for the lack of the better word - contain Russia. Even at the cost of Ukrainian lives. You keep talking about most Russians disagreeing with the conflict. How about Ukrainians?! You think 14 millions Ukranians that fled the country support defending the prospect of joining NATO at all costs?! Well, they don't care about the country anymore, they fled. Cancel culture and double standards. Evil? I don't know. F*ck you!
The guy immediately called it "unjustified". If he said "unjustified, but understandable" that would have been more accurate to the situation, in my opinion. No violent outburst exists in a vacuum. This was years in the making. It's not unlike a bullied kid that shoots up a school. The reason why it got to that point is important.
Agreed. I am of the undesirable but understandable point of view. I don’t know enough to say that it is unjustified. The Ukrainian President saying that he’s going to align with NATO and bring in nuclear weapons during talks was likely what prompted Putin. Probably not a good thing to say if you want to keep peace. =\
For a better and fair overview over the current situation, the next interview on Ukraine I would suggest to be done with a local historian. It is practical and healthy to hear both sides.
Agreed there's so many issues going on in Ukraine that might have lead to this, like there is a real division between its people, minorities being harassed and the oligarchs rampart power and corruption, not to mention NATO meddling's. We need a real insight in what's going on internally in Ukraine from a, lets hope, a more historic (neutral) approach.
@@premabaul7570 The last part, the one about Zelenskyy is what worries me, the world seems to be glorifying him, too much, and that's never a good thing.
Frederick Kagan, really? Brother of super hawk Robert Kagan, whose wife is Victoria Nuland?? And you expect us to believe that this is a serene, unbiased conversation on Russia and Putin? Come on Jordan, I expected better of you.
I expected more of an open minded conversation from this. They way Frederick Kagan confidently stated that "the NATO was a security alliance created so that europe could have peace". Thats a red flag for me.
You might disagree but it is certainly a widely held view. There is a danger with any detailed analysis of current events that you end up arguing about the interpretation of events many years ago instead. It is impossible to come up with a universally agreed answer to a question like "What was the purpose of NATO?"
Also his characterization of of who has supported Russia. He really only mentioned Syria and Venezuela. Ignoring that Norway and Switzerland are not joining the no fly restrictions. India is remaining neutral and not condemning Russia. And of course the big one. China is fully supporting Russia. Basically only the west is directly opposing Russia.
@@SmallFries01 "China is fully supporting Russia" -- and yet they abstained from the UN Security Council vote. "Basically only the west is directly opposing Russia" -- Yup, just 87 countries.
As soon as Jordan included in his qualifications an architect of the Iraq War I began listening but with a critical ear. Hard to parse through the fog of war from neo con war hawks
Agreed. This type of foreign policy has brought us disaster after disaster. Libya. Yemen. Iraq. Afghanistan. One could almost include Vietnam. This man is the last person to give an unbiased viewpoint. He's a bagman for failed attempts to spread Western control around the world in places it is not wanted.
Iraq for me at least is actually a pretty complex subject because in surface the Us has nothing to do out there but when you see that dictators are creating nuclear bombs and they are constantly in war with each and you add to that there is this group of terrorism who created a cult named fundamental islamism things get pretty messy. On the other hand Putin is a completely outrageous war that his argument is that the West make his desicion by force which in this case is not.
@@patriciomorales3736 Except the "Saddam has WMDs and will nuke the US" was complete and utter BS, a ferocious campaign of propaganda and gaslighting, which Kagan said only the Russians do.
@@hailarwotanaz5848 It still is complete BS. There are a ton of nations with nuclear reactors and nuclear material without any WMDs or intentions to produce them. The existence of "nuclear material" does not indicate a desire to nuke another country in any way.
29:10 What a buffer NATO built. Such a "defensive buffer" that we ended up with NATO having missile lauchers systems (capable of launching attack missiles on Moscow and other major Russian cities in a matter of minutes) all over Russian borders, mainly Poland and Romenia. This is a very one-sided conversation. NATO being portrayed as the good guys no matter what is very telling as far as I'm concerned... how many times has NATO attacked and invaded countries WITHOUT the approval of the Security Counsil? "It's ok when we do it"...........
@@paigemccormick6519 Still what I stated about the "defensive" capabilities installed at Russia's doorstep is a fact that hasn't been addressed properly. I don't see Russian missile launchers in Canada, or Mexico... Damn, not even in Ukraine! But I see a lot of NATO's. I have seen NATO doing huge (growing) military exercises every single year for several years at Russia's doorstep. The same NATO that said they wouldn't expand one inch to the East. Maybe it's my bias to think all of this it isn't just a conspiracy of mine, and not a provocation at all.
@@paigemccormick6519 the conversation begun with a bunch of lies and spiraled into insanity. Unprovoked attack? How many times dost Putin need to repeat himself in order for NATO to understand that Russia will not allow puppet Nazi government and NATO missiles at its border? Russians are very patient people, they can tolerate famine, war, torture, dictatorship, but one thing they won't tolerate is Nazism.
@Olya Shishkovskaya who is Russia to tell other countries what they can and cannot do? Look - I live on a street where my neighbors all formed a gang (supposedly for protection). I told them it was fine, as long as nobody in the houses next door to me joined. Well, my neighbor to the west started to hang out with the gang more often and looked like he wanted to join their gang. So, I killed his entire family and burned his house down. I warned them not to make me do it. But they did it anyways. Of course the police saw it from my perspective and supported my actions. I am bigger than any of them AND I have more weapons. Therefore, they should have to listen to me. Does that sound reasonable?
