SABER THUMB PLACER - Who invented it? Bavarian M1826 Sabre 

As far as I am aware, there are even earlier examples of thumb placers in Bavaria light cavalry sabres. It is present in some M1788 Cheveauxlegers (light cavalry) sabres. (Terminology is a bit confusing in this case, Cheveauxlegers were formed in Bavaria in 1804, a shorter version of the M1788 had been in use prior for infantry sergeants, although I don't know if they featured thumb placers). Its successor, the Cheveauxlegers sabre M1813 (and predecessor of the M1826) did not have a thumb placer, even though thumb placement seem to have been a concern, since it features a thin flat metal band connecting the pommel cap and the guard. Tldr: Thumb placers have an even longer history in Bavarian light cavalry sabres, maybe dating back to 1804 if not further

I've always loved the term 'hammer' grip because the better I became at using a hammer, the less frequently I held it with that grip.

I think we're all primarily surprised that the French didn't make provision for a thumb up the back, given reputation.

FINALLY!!!!! You talked about the M1826!!! Thank you so much!! What do you think about the sword in general? This model saw action in Greece with the Bavarian expeditionary force in the 1830s, in Denmark 1848, the German War of 1866 and the Franco Prussian War 1870/71, also probably in the colonial war and with some units in WW1! This sword was around for a long time! Thank you very much for adressing it!

I find that the thumb up grip is better while using sabers with little curve, but less optimal with heavily curved sabers...not sure why though.

And that sort of technology is still being used in modern olympic saber. You can get grips with checkered and indents for your thumb still. Also some saber gloves will have a rough pad on the thumb to add more grip. Maybe that's what the French did?

The Swiss swords from 1867 also have the "thumb placer" (cavalry trooper saber, cavalry officer saber and general officer saber). But the earlier models of 1842 do not have it. And they kept if for the next generation of 1896/99. They also have a leather loop for one finger in the front of the guard, I haven't seen anything similar on a saber here, does someone know something about that ?

Could you please do a review of General George S. Patton's Saber, show casing what "improvements" and or "mistakes" he made? Much appreciated 👍👍

Just out of curiosity, but how hard would it be to distinguish and older/earlier sword that was later renovated with a new hilt, or part of it? I could totally imagine someone inheriting a sword from their predecessor and changing some parts to better fit the trends at the time.

Use and placing of a sword knot would be interesting.

This is a huge topic since it's inextricably linked to cut-vs-thrust, back-vs-forward weighted sabres and doctrine and fencing style. The thumb-up grip defines the 19th century style, almost involuntarily if you try to fence with it, and ditto a hammer grip the earlier style. But since it's useable "in extremis" either way it's difficult to draw conclusions, other than designs get standardised to most popular intended use over time and space.

I just re-watched the movie "Highlander" My only thought as I watched was: If you were in that world, which sword would you want as your sword? If you were in the movie and called to fight others and chop off heads, which sword would you choose?

I would never imagined a thumb up the backside would have such an influence on the controll of a Sabre thrust.

i have a heavier cavalry saber, and it did seem a bit unwieldy to use it with the thumb up.

Pistol grip is better for me than the thumbup thing.

Got here early this time!

i like how you say "Brrritish"

In some video there was explanation that there were a change in fencing style in the mid XVIII century, that made "thumb rings" on sabres fall of use. That is probably the time when thumb placers began to evolve.

🚧🚧🚓🚓🚧🚧: U.K. P.D.> "License & Registration for antique Saber, Sir! Spot of Tea ☕& a crumpet while we criminalize..."

Nice and informativ video again!😊👍 ...But... as you often say... there is one Thing. The "ä" in the word "Schläger" is pronounced like the "a" in the words "that" or "backstrap" for instance and not like in "bath". This two dots on top of the letter "a"... so "ä" are responsible for that. It is a so called "Umlaut". As a German I hade to grinch every time you used the word "Schläger".🙈 But no offence. I know German is not an easy language to pronounce for non-native speakers.😄

Off topic, I know, but the US-Canadian V-42 knife had a dished and checkered spot on the blade that the British Commando knife and Fairbairn-Applegate knives didn't have.

Did the evolution of English swords change and follow the German style when the House of Hanover became the Royal Family? That would be in the early 1700’s if I’m correct.

Attention! The Mensur sword is called ,Schläger'. A ,Schlager' is a music ,hit' in a special type of german music. ( Some people say , you can scare them away with Schlager music).

Erm... speccing a car with running boards? Are you imagining buying a coach-built Hispano-Suiza?

The german ä/Ä can be written as 'ae', if you don't have the letter. Don't just write a instead of ä, write ae, because you will pronounce it wrong. Good pronounciation of Schlager though! 🙂

I've fought actual Mensur duels here in Germany. If you're interested I could hook you up with a few sources, first hand information and possibly a Schläger

cross-pollination - history doesnt repeat, but it does rhyme - nothing new under the sun - like with bowie knives - WSOGMM

Also I find that in longsword fencing (of which Liechtenauer is probably the most popular, at least that is the treatise I have come in contact with the most) you are encouraged to place your thumb on the blade. Maybe not wrapping your thumb around the hilt has become something of a custom because of that?

"lightsaber... " ("wooshh... wooshh..." and death march intensifiy... )

maybe the french didn't want to get a horrible callus on their beautifully manicured thumbs, how barbaric, parbleu! hahaha

Interesting bit of history there. Just watched another interesting bit on Mark Felton's channel, the Sword of Stalingrad, ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-6kbuFB0Z8RM.html. Might be a good fit for your channel also.

I'm personally not a fan of a thumb up the backside, but hey, whatever floats your boat.🤭

Thumb on the back has a reach advantage and is more vulnerable against strikes against the sword (e.g. parry).

There is the 7th Hussars grip as Wilkinsons described it. Re: John Sheard article.

New subscriber. Just happened onto your site a few months ago. Love it! John

I have used sabers from the Italian school, both sport and traditional and the thumb is always in top. Interestingly, I also practice a Filipino art which uses the ginunting, a short sword which has a reverse curved blade. When I cut, I use a hammer grip for more power. Yet, with my thumb on top I can thread a needle with my thrusts. Makes a world of difference!

Us carpenter's put our fingers down the side of a saw blade, keeps the blade and forearm stable in direction an pitch. I imagine the thumb up the back does the same, increasing control.

....yeah, ..sounds a lot like them developing the ME262....................WAY AHEAD.....................................

The timing also close to the Marriage of Prince Albert to Victoria so popularising german influence to Britain around that time

Good Video 👍thank you, greetings from bavaria.

Hi Matt, I have noticed something, that strikes me quite odd and I think, that you or your community might have an answer for me. All of us probably know the Dussack, however did anybody actually ever see one in period art? The earlist source for the term is (as far as I know) Andreas Pauernfeynd's Fechtbuch from 1516. So we know, that the word existed at that point. The peoblem is, that I have never seen a depiction of a Dussack, outside of fencing manuals. There are of course the illustrations in Pauernfeynd and Meyer for example but non-fechtbuch sources seem to simply not include them. ("Them" as in training Dussacks and the steel weapon) Almost all sidearms in battle paintings, portraits, etc. are either sideswords, rapiers, Messer or Katzbalger. I have never seen a single Dussack. Maybe I just have not dug deep enought but this makes me question, how common the Dussack was. I just thought I'll ask you and your community, if there is more to it, since several thousand people know more than just one. I love your video. Keep going.👌

I have a question about using 2 swords so say a soldier on a battle field and said shield breaks would it be probable carry another sword

Cross pollination of European sabres must definitely get a bit complicated

So it was German thing to one's thumb up the backside?

The french thumbs were stronger than all others! One might wonder why tho

Wow..is that Bavarian 1826 for sale?

But what about that leather finger ring on the Bavarian sword?!

Why was the thumb loop never used on sabres and other swords of that type?

Your social score has declined by 52 points.

You have so many weapons if you melted them down you could make a tank lol

Interesting, while learning Hungarian Hussar sabre I always wondered why we don't put our thumb on the back of the hilt like in other lineages in favor of the more standard "hammer" grip. It makes sense though now as Hussar sabre fencing would typically be from horseback and thrusts aren't prioritized very highly in that lineage.

Hello Matt, have you ever done a video on japanese tachi?

All european sabers are just a copy of the arab sword.

german schlagers.. then and today XD

Stop saying thumb up the back 😂

I am no german academic. But the ,Schläger" appeared in late 1820s, to be safer than former smallsword like ,Pariser', a thrusting weapon. There had been a number of death cases, so german authorites wanted to forbid students fencing, so cutfencing ,Schläger' replaced the ,Pariser", which was used up to 1850s.

I am not sure that I want to put the thumb up the back...

I noticed that thumb rings were in use on mostly German and British swords of the 16th and 17th centuries. This emphasis on thumb placement on 19th century sabres seems to be a continuation of that preference particularly among the Germans and British. Cultural connections and the sword trade were likely factors as well.

Just to add a data point I have a Prussian M1852 Light Cavalry Sabre (pre 1879 fullered blade) and it doesn't have any provision for the thumb so I guess the Bavarians didn't bother telling their cousins about this.

I like the thumb up sometimes but I prefer a handshake grip & only pivoting to the thumb up for certain techniques myself. I've never been disarmed due to having my thumb up but it certainly doesnt feel as solid to me so switching back & forth between thumb up & handshake grips etc as needed is preferred.

can you jam your thumb using this grip when stabbing? Also wouldn't disarms techniques work better?

"... but we still teach people to stick the thumb up the back." 👍 🤔😂

Regarding the Mensurschläger grip, i have seen examples with "wings" on the side of the thumb groove ot prevent the thumb from slipping off, although i personally do not like them and prefer a simple groove.

I wonder if it could have been an influence from the KGL that saw the backstrap advances happen in the British swords.

It surprises me that this came about so late in the use of swords . Is this due to gauntlet’s being previously worn. Thanks again for a fascinating show and channel. RU-vid at its best.

I'm actually far more interested in why it took them so long to include this feature.

Hi Matt, my understanding is that pistol like grips were common on Prussian sabres and on Saxon sabres but they don't seem to be using a thumb placer very often.

I think this might be a particularly southeastern german sort of thing early on? I'd have to look more into historical german swords to verify this, though.

Subscribe! Cheers!

The buying a car analogy has me wondering: Were any of the things that were optional when buying a sword something that should have been standard and making an extra was a way of getting artificially low list price ("We have cars as low as $1919")?

Great video! Thumbs up from germany.

🤠👍🏿

Thank you for elucidating the checkered past of this saber’s backstrap! Great video, mate-

Very cool!

From what I gleaned from Kinsley, D. A - Swordsmen of the British Empire (I am at only about 30% in the book now), those were just those "heavy, dull unwieldy bars of steel" so unpopular with most Indian cavalry soowars and even worse with those edge-dulling, rattling steel scabbards. I think you really should make some videos about not what was popular by Burton and other salon sabreurs like him but what worked on real battlefields of Mahratta, Sikh or Afghani wars. Model 1796 is said in some memoirs to be really popular even in the fifties, especially with hilt modified by tulwar/"scimitar" tradition. And also, are you acquainted with the thumb ring on Polish/Magyar sabres from 17-18th century?

…. Kinda wierd for that sword in particular to that, considering the leather finger loop. Wouldn’t heel to the rear thumb up make it harder to use the finger loop? Seems like a recipe of military finger joint issues. Fencers elbows, more like fencer fingers :p

Always wished the US Army's sabers had that feature. But the French inspiration didn't so they didn't either.

I actually pondered where the curve in sporting swords started. Lots of Olympic style swords have pretty noticeable curves to the handle and I always thought it was just a modern ergonomics thing, turns out it started way back then.

Calling bavaraians german is like calling scotsmen english.

I hope I look as good as an egg as matt when I'm older

Man, I'd really like one of those 1912s

"stick the thumb up the back" - Matt Easton 2022

👍🏼👍🏼

Very cool.

I would say, the advent of Machine Tools allowing many finer details to be added at little or no extra cost. We see the same with guns and such. Also, the long musket with long bayonet, was a problem for a officer in the one shot days.

I really enjoy these specialized looks at specific swords, if you ever want to do a very unique albeit disappointing sword, look at the French 1896 universal cavalry sword. Basically a glorified 37" long spadroon (in all the wrong ways, albeit might be decent on foot) with a spine fuller and the most Warhammer 40k looking French Nouveau hilt you've ever seen!

Look at this: pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paluch_(bro%C5%84) (google translator helps)