Wonder why Sony is still so concerned about copy protection at this point. Folks have been using Play Stations to back up their DSD layers for some time. I recently backed up my entire collection using a Sony DVD player. The output is pure dsd in all its glory. I can serve it to my dac via Roon, plug a usb drive into my Oppo or play it on my DAP that handles dsd. I no longer fear scratching my hard to replace sacds. BTW I have very limited tech skills, I'm just good at following directions. Sony needs to give up this fight.
At the time when they designed the DSD format, they were probably doing everything they could to avoid a repeat of the DAT legal debacle, which ended up going all the way to Congress. That resulted in SCMS imposed on digital audio recording. Sony isn't "fighting the fight" as much as "paying the cost" of having lost the fight.
@@PanAmStyle I wasn't aware that was possible. Via Googling, it seems that it involves installing a non-Sony operating system on an early-model Playstation 3? That'd probably protect Sony from liability.
Been listening to DSD for many years now and always thought that it was the most natural and realistic format i had ever heard. But last month i bought this dac from SMSL (won't mention the model but i paid 104$) and i listened to some of my cd's through optical input ,and to tell you the truth i'm just now starting to realize the true potential of the old compact disc ,this format was no slouch.Dacs have come a long way , they make PCM sound very very close to DSD. IMO
Thank you very much sir, the last person I knew that new as much as you did was Steve Baird, one of the contributors to sensible sound. He should be the way.
The Essence HDACC II decodes the SACD/DSD layer natively over HDMI. It only uses DOP if you connect an SACD player over SPDIF. I have had my HDACC II for a little over two weeks, and I’ve worked with the seller directly for any questions of setup, etc. It is a VERY good DAC, especially for the money - it’s sold direct. For DSD I am feeding it from a Sony UBP-X800, a universal player that has three outputs: SPDIF coax, HDMI audio + video out and HDMI out only audio. I am playing back SACD layers via the HDMI audio + video out. The DSD is decoded natively, i.e., it’s not converted to DOP, at least that’s what the OLED display indicates. The DAC has *four* HDMI inputs, and one out and supports 4K video. I use another input to stream from an Apple TV 4K. It also has analog (single ended), USB & SPDIF inputs, both coax and optical. I am using the USB input connected to a Mac Mini, so far I have simply compared the sound from that configuration to the HDMI inputs, with no real conclusion yet as I haven’t really had time for critical listening. I bought this DAC because I really couldn’t wait for the new Stellar DAC which, it has been hinted to me, will have more than one HDMI input. The HDACC II is cheap enough that I could re-sell it without much loss and go to a PS Audio or Bryston DAC or others that support native DSD decoding if I found they were sonically significantly better. There would be a substantial cost difference, of course. The *only* negative I have found with the HDACC II so far, at least in terms of performance, is that the imaging isn’t quite what I would like. But I think that is likely room and setup, which I can work on. After all, I *do* have the PS Audio speaker setup disc and guide, so I’ll be on that soon 😊 This is a very resolving DAC (as are most with “modern” ESS chips) with output that is not bright or harsh, at least for me. I’m pleased with the results of DSD, PCM and video. I can even turn off subtitles for most movies and videos with thick British accents!
The SPDIF output of SACD players is never, to my knowledge, outputting DoP but rather it outputs DSD converted to PCM. You can check that by whether your DAC indicates it is receiving DSD or PCM.
@@LeonFleisherFan I don’t think DoP is used between a dCS transport and DAC to play DSD data out of an SACD, the communication is done over some proprietary protocol. DoP was actually invented by dCS, and it is used in their DACs to receive DSD information via one-cable SPDIF (as opposed to the dual-AES between transport and DAC), USB, and possibly other routes into the DAC (I have a dCS Rossini, by the way). Regardless, the difference between whatever means are used to get the DSD data into the DAC, in all cases you end up with the same DSD data for the DAC to decode.
@@miguelbarrio Thanks! I've always been intrigued by the fact that dCS stuck with Dual AES (separate channels in the digital domain), AFAIK a remnant of a studio format from the nineties.
As far as I know, the D.BOP by GeerFab Audio can legally convert the DSD signal (bitstream) via HDMI, from an applicable Oppo or Sony universal disc player, into a DoP64 signal and send it out via its Coax or Optical outputs which can be fed into a DAC that can interpret DoP64. I have this set up and I can testify that it functions properly: Oppo BDP-103D => HDMI => D.BOB => Opt. (TOSLink) => RME ADI-2 DAC FS => Preamplifier.
The problem isn't really that DACs won't play back a DSD signal, it's that almost no modern cd transports have the I2S connection to transmit the DSD signal to the dac without first converting it to DOP. There are imperfect solutions if you dig around enough to find them, but it's almost not worth it. It's a shame Sony essentially killed DSD before it ever had a chance. There are very few shops out there like Octave bothering with DSD at all.
As others have stated, The OPPO players *can* bitstream DSD out the HDMI. There's also some i2s modules on the market for that player that will split the i2s stream out via HDMI connector to DACs that use HDMI for i2s, which is how I listen to SACDs: OPPO -- i2s --> Denafrips Venus 2. Is that skirting copyright? Hmmm.... *shrugs*
I don’t think it’s avoiding the DRM - my guess is that the receiving chip or other architecture contains the license. Otherwise, why would they risk litigation?
About to do same here. I have a several years old yamaha universal player that has the capability--using a module I bought from Audiophonics---and will run into the I2S of a Venus II.
Paul is missing the boat on multichannel SACD / DSD. Darko audio same thing. Putting down multichannel for the spaucity of content. Every good classical disc from Deutsche Gramophone is recorded in DSD 5.1. Not just mixed.
So I'm still a bit confused. I have an OPPO 105D player. If I buy a PS Audio DS DAC MKI or DS DAC MKII can I simply output from the OPPO via HDMI into the PS Audio DS DAC and get pure DSD without going through the Sony chip? Paul's comments make it sound like I also have to use the PS Audio PW SACD Transport to achieve this. I've been thinking about getting a DAC for several reasons. I would love to buy a reconditioned PS Audio DS DAC especially if I can get the pure DSD sound. Will my OPPO work?
So confusing... My lowly Sony BluRay player plays SACD layer, outputs it on HDMI (not I2S) and I feed it to another lowly Sony HT Receiver's HDMI input and it clearly states DSD !!! Also, I've asked (for over two years now) that Paul explain I2S outputs of SACD players and how to select DSD DACs that can actually decode it using the DACs I2S input with HDMI port.... Still patiently waiting.... (Psst... he probably does not know)
You may have to change some settings on the oppo. On my Sony BX-510 player I had to hook it up to the TV and change the output setting to DSD and music only and then the sacd shows up on my Bryston dac as 64 via hdmi. Before I changed the settings it only showed up at 178k.
Like one commenter stated below, why is Sony so concerned about their copyright on a dead format? SACD has come and gone and only niche people even care about it at this point. I mean if we want anything better than DSD64, aren't we relegated to playing downloaded files? Even then, why the copyright issue? Sony needs to give it up after all these years and let the puppies run free.
@@tee-jaythestereo-bargainph2120 copyrights come and go and can be relinquished. I doubt Wells Fargo still maintains a patent on a safe designed in the 1800s. I mean, the world has moved on. I can now buy DSD files from say Octave Records, Blue Coast, or another vendor, even better than the DSD64 contained on SACD, and I can play them on any device I want. There is no SCMS copy protection on them at all. Given that, I just don't see any reason for NEW SACDs to have any restrictions that make using them harder than it has to be. It guides many audiophiles into just saying "to hell with it" and enjoy 24-bit/192KHz PCM files and call it a day, skipping DSD as a playback format. If studios want to maintain DSD backups of all their masters (analog or digital, because those old analog masters won't last forever even in climate controlled storage), then hey, that's great because DSD is the nearly perfect archive quality medium, but consumers, even audiophiles don't necessarily care if 24-bit/192Khz files sound about 99% as good.
I understand from Down the Rabbit Hole of SACD Ripping and DSD Extraction, it is possible to rip the DSD layer to a DSF file. So while doing so in real time seems to be an issue. SACD sourced DSD playback can be accomplished in this process.
I have the Sony X700 Blu-ray / SACD player. In its on-screen menu I can set it to output DSD or PCM. When I plug the Sony into my AVR when set to output DSD, the AVR displays DSD. Surely this is different than Paul says here?
I have not noticed a problem playing any types of SACD or with the DSD signal playing the discs on my Sony SACD player using the optical out witch runs to my surround receiver. I don't really here a big difference. Maybe I can't tell, But it sounds fine to me.
For over a century great people (like Paul for instance) have been working hard to bring us that music we enjoy in formats and with technology that bring us that much closer to the original, to the live experience. Many hobbyists enjoy experimenting with formats, equipment, etc in that same pursuit. It's a hobby for me, a living for others, a passion for many. Should we have stopped at wax cylinders or 78's? Well some might really enjoy their 78s and I would never judge that, what brings one person joy may not be the same as another. I get joy from this hobby, even if I can be a little excessive about it, but I don't expect very many people to get that. And that's cool, why should they? But after some 40 years of pursuing the best sound I can get in my home, why would I stop now?
@@dwymer86 I agree with you, but with Sony still making it hard to hear any appreciable difference here in 2023, it seems really stupid. Most people simply aren't going to the trouble, aggravation, and sheer doubt trying to play SACDs through external DACs, at least those of us with systems in the $10K to $20K range. We just want to hear the music. That's why High Res PCM at 24-bit/192KHz is "good enough" for most people and they just won't bother with DSD. I have a nice late model Denon CD player that has a USB front interface. It can play DSD files up to DSD512. I assume that yes, it is going through some crappy Sony chip internally. If so, there's little point in DSD for 98% of the people out there who call themselves audiophiles. We aren't going to pop $5K on a new CD transport and another $5K on a DAC for a very marginal increase in sound quality over high res PCM. Sony killed SACD themselves by trying to over control it. (Or the RIAA did by forcing SCMS on all of us). Formats come and go. SACD is dead.
For me the main reason to bother with SACD is the multichannel layer most discs have. I stream their multichannel DSD files from a NAS to a Sony Blu-ray Player. The Sony in turn sends the signal via HDMI to my Pioneer AVR that has a DAC capable of decoding the multichannel signal. For Stereo DSD files I could not swear I hear a difference compared to PCM Hi-Res formats, but a well-produced Multichannel DSD recording provides a great sonic experience. For Stereo only I'm not sure I'd make the effort of going down the SACD/DSD route.
@@rosswarren436 You make several good points. A couple I might question however: again, my tech knowledge is limited, but I think only HDMI connections require the Sony "interference". Using a USB (or network connection) doesn't require a Sony chip as far as I know. Ripping SACDs is not terribly hard nowadays, so that they can be played via USB or network connections. Like other posters, I am also a fan of multi channel playback. I'd call it a niche product nowadays, but I can hear those shiny discs exclaim, "but I'm not dead yet."
@@charlesmorrow6198 So you may have a hint when this video has been recorded. And we're not talking about topics that get outdated after 7 months, right?
So DoP is not the same sound as pure DSD? I thought there was no difference in sound quality between the two --- only the electronic "delivery package."
DoP means DSD over PCM - it is just an encapsulation method to transport DSD data (which is a non-stop continuous stream of 0’s and 1’s) over PCM packets, which is what the standard UAC2 (USB Audio Codec) knows how to deal with. It is not dissimilar to FLAC vs WAV - FLAC being a method to encapsulate and compress PCM packets losslessly. There is no difference in the data retrieved from DoP vs the original DSD stream.
@@miguelbarrio Thanks,. I guess I misunderstood what Paul was saying about 2:00. Let me make sure I understand DACs and playing DSD files and/or the DSD layer off SACDs. Is the following true, that there are three kinds of DACs: (1) DACs that are PCM only, like Schiit DACs and R-2R DACs. They cannot play DSD files and they do not play the DSD layer off SACDs. Trying to play DSD files or SACDs with these DACs, you only get white noise or silence. (2) DACs that play DSD over PCM (DoP). A lot of mid-range DACs can do this -- Cambridge, Music Fidelity, Topping (3) DACs that play native DSD (via DSD files or DSD layer from SACD) without conversion to/from any intermediate format -- like the PS Audio DS DAC. And my biggest question is this -- Does native DSD sound better than DoP? It must. If not, why do I care about PS Audio's DACs and their I2S input? And here's another thing that throws me for a loop -- Cookie Marenco says that if an album is mastered in DSD it should be played in DSD, and vice versa. That is, an album that is mastered in PCM sounds best if played in PCM. Apologies to everyone, I'm sure they know all this already. I'm slow and I'm a visual learner.
@@HAL9007 Couple of things: - Your three cases are correct. There are a few DACs that cannot play DSD (Schiit for example); most DACs that play DSD use DoP as a means of getting the data; and there are a few (very few) that can play DSD without the use of DoP but they all require special drivers as the UAC2 protocol does not support anything other than PCM. DoP is NOT a format conversion but a means of packing the DSD data into chunks that look like PCM samples so that UAC2 can be used to take them from computer to DAC. Once unpacked, the data is identical to the original DSD data. If on the other hand you converted the DSD data into PCM musical data, the DAC will play the PCM data and that is not identical to the DSD data you started with. When you play a DSD file to a PCM-only Schiit DAC you will either get sound (the computer converted the data to PCM music before sending it) or you will hear a hiss because the data is not understood by the DAC. As for “playing the same format the album is recorded in” it is my experience that most recordings sound best when no conversions are done - that is play DSD with a DSD DAC, PCM with a PCM DAC, and analog with an analog rig. As you transcode, it is my experience something is lost. It is also my experience that some (few) recordings that started out digital sometimes get improved when played on vinyl. I would say that is because the original digital recording had some artifacts that the transcription got rid of, maybe.
Paul claim that “you need one of our rigs” to hear DSD without going through a PCM conversion is pretty outrageous. How out of touch is he? This may have been true more than a decade ago, but is far from the case today.
I’m going to assume he meant if you’re using a separate transport and DAC as opposed to a standalone player with analog outputs, but even then PS Audio hardly has a monopoly on this today. Other companies like Denafrips have even used the same HDMI cable protocol as PS Audio, allowing you to mix and match brands.
Pretty outrageous is an overstatement. Paul is correct in that there are a very limited number of DACs that process DSD natively regardless of how they receive it from a transport via HDMI or I2S.
