Come on West Systems, this guy is producing the best publicity out there for your product. You know what you need to do. Thousands of people will be thankful for your support.
Hi Mads, I was introduced to your channel a week ago by a friend. I have been binge watching ever since and have gone thru 150 videos. After your fall thru the hatch, please be careful and consider setting up some scaffolding or at least some sort of safety railing around your boat. I had a good friend die from a fall from his boat while on the hard. Having scaffolding around the deck would make for a lot lest bending over to sand and lay up fiberglass. Might be an expense but it could save your life. Wonderful videos and can't believe how tenacious and upbeat you are in the face of seemingly never ending issues with the boat. G. Silver s/v Liahona Amel Super Maramu
Why you don't have a tv deal by now is a mystery to me. You are so talented and produce such quality content consistently. To any producers out there "This Old Boat" type series would be a good fit for this guy.
Most producers are WANKERS! They will have him sanding a hole in the hull just to get ratings. That and for what little money they do pay you, most will require that you give up your creative license and also approve everything on your youtube channel going forward. Yada Yada Yada.. Then he would have to quit his job, to produce these TV shows,ect.
Always remember....The most expensive materials you can find are justified weighing the labor, inconvenience, refinish process, downtime for repairs and additional materials required to redo a short cut now. Stick with WS and avoid the worry. Fair winds and calm seas my friend.
That other pretty wooden boat in the shed that you admire is likely a Collin Archer style double-ender or a Bristol Channel Cutter (which are somewhat similar). There are many European designers of lovely double enders but they all share the same general lines, versions built from 25ft to more than 50 ft. The double-enders are usually not very fast by todays standards but it is their stability, ruggedness, and sea-kindly motion that makes them still quite popular with cruisers.
Agree with John Speck. After having tested many products where a bonding chemistry is crucial there can be unanticipated outcomes when the test samples are "cross contaminated". In this case the chemistry is a crucial part of your exterior boat skin Mads and I don't recommend it unless you have the go ahead from other trusted expert boat rebuilders who have used these exact materials together with long term success. Thank your awesome friends from all of us subs for helping you with Athena! 👍
I'd stick with West Systems, per other comments below, I'd always worry about them delaminating / breaking the bond because they might have slightly different thermal cycling properties, and shear apart over time. It would be a shame to have all of your hard work turn to poop. Perhaps you could order a smaller amount of the West System locally at the exorbitant price to tide you over until a larger shipment can be delivered from the UK? In any event, great vide Mads!
I agree with many of the other comments to stick with West System. Manufacturers work really hard to test their products on their own products in different environments and situations. I don't think West Systems is any more special than other epoxy brands, but I wouldn't want to be the test run. Personally, I just wouldn't feel good about doing such a huge project change to something I trust my life to. If it were just a repair to a hatch or under a stantion, I wouldn't hesitate using what I can purchase... Just my thoughts on the subject, but where are your chemical engineer followers? Lol You do really good work man!
switching in mid stream would worry me. btw a long time ago you were set up to test west system against mas system if you ever did a report on the results i missed it somehow and would be grateful for a short recap. you have amazing friends Mads, sanding fiberglass is something im not sure i would do for my own brother :)
Buy the German stuff. It all comes out of the same pot! The west boys are just good at marketing and supplying information for diy folks. Guaranteed no problem if you mix right.also your massive overbuild will take care of any concerns you might have! Glad you did not hurt your self , a friend fell down the fore hatch of a boat he was selling at the London boat show.......broke 8 ribs and had to spend 6 weeks in bed at our house to recover! Cheers Warren
Sticking with West System sounds like the best idea to me. Why risk the unknown? Buy just enough of the WS stuff from the local supplier to start the next phase of your project and expedite order the bulk size from the UK supplier. If you run short before the UK shipment arrives you can always buy more locally to carry you through. Any Good Samaritans in the UK driving towards Denmark this week who could deliver? Cheers! P.S. - I'm inspired by your videos!
Good man Mads, i woke up about 3 years ago and switched epoxy supply from wests to a local manufacturer, the new product doesn't blush so no sanding or peel ply, its cheaper to purchase than wests and is offered in myriad formulations depending on application and weather conditions. So go for it! Just key up your wests with 40G sandpaper and crack on!
+Roger Ball Hi Roger :) Couldn't help but think off you when using the heater mat to heat the epoxy :) I think you sent me a photo of you doing the same thing. Again thanks for all your help with the DIY hotwac setup. It worked out great! :)
My pleasure, those heater mats are bloody handy things to have in a workshop and keep up the amazing work. I'm about to fire up agentlemansyacht.com (again) in the next month or so now i've found the capital so cheers for keeping me interested in all things boaty.
Don't know why, but watching this video, it hit me...The sense of accomplishment Mads will feel the first time he starts an ocean crossing aboard Athena should be something rare/special, that no one will ever be able to take it from him - this is the kind of stuff that makes life worthwhile...Other than that, great video as usual...and PLEASE, do get in touch with WS, it's not a stretch to think they will help you somehow, DONT mix the stuff(epox) - you do have a growing following, its quality content and you are a great dude - its pretty straightforward deal, just reach out to them(WS) and good things should come your way within the time frame you need .
Glad to see the slight 3” offset of those two layers of fiberglass. I was worried that you might have made a weak spot, if you didn’t offset. But on closer inspection, I see you added dash line for that purpose. 😅
Mads, I just started watching your channel. I got hooked. I watched all 240 videos in one week. I agree with the others that you shouldn't mix the different brands of epoxy. Thanks for sharing your videos.
John Vigor writes about the very thing you're contemplating. He ran out of resin while fiberglassing a deck and switch to another brand to finish the job. Initially, it appeared to work, but eventually the laminates separated. You can find the article on Vigor's blog.
Depending on how much and how long you have to go on the laminate , you could order the west systems from England for what you think you'll need and the might the bullet and buy some locally to fill the gap for lead time. But if you feel comfortable using the German substitute then by all means. It's your boat and your confidence if the important part. Great work so far sir.
I can't help you regarding the German epoxy. What I would recommend is that you fiberglass the wood bases for your forward hatches. If Athena ends up outdoors for some unplanned reason you can mount the hatches and keep her rainproof. Don't depend on tarps to keep her dry inside instead seal up any openings and let the tarps protect the fiberglass from the sun. Best Wishes
I am sitting here in SONOMA California USA With fires all around. Watching your videos takes my mind off the fires off only for 20 minuets or so. Thank you so much. Love watching your progress.
Love your videos. I would attempt to stay with one system. If not feasible, order the old system and while you wait, use the new system on a spot that is very easy to redo until the old system arrives. Better idea is to move back under deck for a few weeks.
Mads, you keep me in stitches with your commentary. I spent a weekend watching a lot of your first vids. You were a little stiff but very exacting in describing your work. Your technical work and your description are top-drawer. Your sense of humor really comes through....in spades! Thanks and keep up the good work! Bill Draper in the U.S.
Hi Mads. I mixed different brands of like material on mine and never had any problems with it. All the work is good 20 plus yrs for some. But stay with epoxy with epoxy, vinyl ester with vinyl ester and polyester with polyester. I would use a vinyl ester on the last coat (outside coat.) You answered your own question with your test. It's a good physical and chemical bond. It's not coming apart. The new shed looks like it's wet. FG + moisture are bad juju. Beautiful work! Never mind. As much as you worry pay the money and get West System. Ha ha
You are making some great progress. I am restoring a 72 Hughes 38 and you are giving me some great ideas. My biggest concern is that I will have to do work at the boat yard because my shop is so far away. Thinking about using my 20 ft race car trailer as a megshift shop and using a polyethylene covered shed to paint in. Thanks for the ideas..
I trust you have contacted the UK supplier with a link to this video and asked if they can do something to help? Brilliant progress no ‘Storming progress’.👍😀
Seems to me your test of the German brand was a good idea and it seem to give the desired output. But if you've got seconds thoughts as to quality of the bonding, then stick with West Systems. Nice job, thanks for sharing! 😊 👍👍👍👍
I recored the deck of my irwin 10/4 this summer with koosa, screws and fender washers, origional topskins, scarfed and taped the cut lines with 1708 biax, I used approx half ws 105 and total boat 5:1 for all thickened batches for the coring as well as wetting out glass and fairing. the two worked out together perfectly and I even was cross mixing the two brands together torwards the end and it worked out with zero problems
M.H. von der Linden in Wesel, Germany, should be able to supply You with any West System product in short time. (I don't know about their current prices, though). It is vonderlinden dot de (No, I don't hold shares). They used to offer special deals for DiY projects of a certain range (that You'd definitely exceed with Athena). And Mads, with You being a vast multiplicator, I can imagine that they would be more than willing to discuss Your prices. When it comes to the use of different brands of epo, I'd recommend at least temper the surface to lay alien epo ontop thoroughly to provide processing energy for curing as entirely as in any way possible. We did this with styro to house the surface and a hacked circus heater to provide lots of warmth, but Your silicone sheet would do the job even better I suppose (and with less energy wasted). Time could be an issue with this sheet method, though.
Cool video Mads and the boat you like looks like a Hands Christian out of the late 80's. They are a beautiful boat and very sea worthy but would need a look at the keel and stern to know for sure.
And sometimes with good reason. I've had delamination on a rush job i did. And i know it was along the "change line" because i marked it with pencil lines on the face for accuracy.
Go with R&G it's fine. I converted my WestSystem Pumps to the 10:4 mix and use R&G now for everything. When you can use Epoxy over Polyester, you can certainly use R&G over a fully cured Epoxy from an other brand.
If you don't need much extra, then order West S. at smaller quantity in Denmark. Stick with West epoxy, its very good, support is great. I've had issues with others like long curing times at lower temps & others have reported health issues with "cheap" epoxies.. I wouldn't risk it. Btw, I have experinec with vacumum bagging and infusion, and would have still used your methode as lightweight is not a big concideration or precise fibre to resin ratio etc.. For sanding I would be using longer fairing boards with some holds. Lightly spray a mist of contrasting paint on to identify high/low spots. Was the old laminate chopped strands, mat will be so much stronger?
Try to bend your test laminate. This will load the bond between the two epoxies in shear. Your peel strength is shown by your attempt to pull up on the stir stick, but the real load in service will be in shear. I used to test composite laminates for an aerospace composites company, and the short beam shear test was the method used for testing shear strength. If your new epoxy pops off the West System laminate before the laminate breaks, then I would be concerned. If the plies hold together until the fibers fail, you should be good to go.
My only concern with using two different types of epoxy is a possible difference in the thermal coeffiient of expansion... Remember that as all things change temperature they expand (when warming) and contract (when cooling). Having two materials bonded together that have a different coefficient of thermal expansion is a recipe for disaster... If the coefficient of expansion is not matched between the two types of epoxy they will create a large amount of stress in the hull as they both try to expand or contract by different amounts... the deck will try to bow and curve ever so slightly as one layer expands slightly more than the other... this stress likely won't be enough to overcome the bonding force of the resin but over time and daily temperature change it will eventually cause issues due to causing additional stress in the hull, the deck, and hull-to-deck joint... It would be a shame to see her nice new fiberglass start to show stress cracks in the years to come... If however, the two different types of epoxy have the same or a very close thermal coefficient of expansion then by all means use the more affordable... but if they have a different thermal coefficient of expansion then please be aware of this issue! You should be able to look up the thermal coefficient of expansion for both types of epoxy since this is typically studied/published information by the makers of each epoxy. Good luck and keep up the hard work, I love you videos and as someone who is interested in doing a boat refit eventually myself your videos are a great help in knowing what I might face...
Boats are made to get wet. Service the motor, change oil remove plugs put oil down cylinders, replace starter and altimeter and your ok. The wiring will need to be replaced, but come on there not that much wiring, you could do it for $1000. You will find some of the long runs will only be bad on the ends. The wood can be cleaned, after all you live in a constant salt moisture environment.
I wouldn't change the epoxy half way through. It might look ok now but in a few years it can separate. My advice for you is to order from the UK and try to get only a small amount from Denmark, just to last until the UK order comes through...
You're a lucky man to have such good friends. Cheers to them. As for the epoxy, WWAS (what would Andy say), as for myself I'm epoxying With MAS systems to an older ('74) fiberglass boat and I don't know what resin they used, working fine for me. As long as you sand, clean and wet the area you should be fine with any epoxy. I think that any and everything West Marine sells is overpriced. Just my 2 sense.
I think you will be exceeding your beer and pizza budget for the rest of the year ! Great friends and I hope you can reward them with some sailing next year !! I would not be concerned about mixing brands of epoxy. Just be sure the surface you are covering has been prepared according to all of the instruction on the new epoxy. (𝑃𝑒𝑟𝑠𝑜𝑛𝑎𝑙𝑙𝑦, 𝐼 ℎ𝑎𝑣𝑒 𝑎𝑙𝑤𝑎𝑦𝑠 𝑡ℎ𝑜𝑢𝑔ℎ 𝑊𝑒𝑠𝑡 𝑆𝑦𝑠𝑡𝑒𝑚𝑠 𝑤𝑎𝑠 𝑜𝑣𝑒𝑟𝑝𝑟𝑖𝑐𝑒𝑑.)
Mads, let me set your mind at rest, about using the new product over the West System. I used to work for a Corvette car dealership, in the body repair shop. The way we would look at it is this, If the one system we have been using, has been around for years or maybe even decades and we have been happy with it, it is trustworthy. If the new product you are going to use, has been around for years or even decades, if there was a problem of people using both systems on the same project, if they were not compatible, there would be ample disaster stories around. West Systems would be saying not to use their products with that other product, and the other product company would be saying the same thing. Then you would have people in boat yards and boat stores, saying the same thing. No company in that industry, want a reputation as being crappy, and if using one product, with an incompatible product, get the customer a crappy result, most companies, business and people who tried it, would be informing people. A couple internet searches would result in the answer also. Do not use West Systems Epoxy with ..... Do not use ...... with West Systems Epoxy ........ Product disaster story when used over West Systems Epoxy You being a tech nerd, probably already know that, but I post it anyways, in case it helps a reader.
Mads you are by far the best example of DIY sail boat repair / refit I have ever come across on RU-vid ,Keep up the great work & excellent channel content!
epoxy resins are a commodity product - and in this application I would not hesitate to mix suppliers. If we were talking about an ultralite airplane then I might stick to one supplier but this deck is bulletproof anyway so no issues. BTW the original deck was polyester and you replace it by same thickness epoxy so about double the original strength anyway.
Hi, Mads. I'm new to your channel and watching from the beginning. I love your background music as it is very reminiscent of programs here in the U.S. like This Old House or the Woodwrights Shop. I can't wait to catch up to find out about your girlfriend and Atlantic crossing.
I agree, stay with West System You will get peace of mind. To raise funds you could start a store with T shirt and coffee mugs. I would buy some, at inflated prices ( lol )
I too would stick with the WS, as I've regretted a few times whenever I tried to save some money by using a different product (especially in a mix and match scenario) then was originally planned for and it has often cost me more in money, headaches and labour in the long run. It would be such a shame down the road to have to tear up a large portion of your deck to have to redo it. IE. shortcuts when working on boats usually turnout to be long cuts. :(
I think sticking with WS will be better in the long run for quality/continuity of manufacture. One thing I was wondering: can you just buy a smaller quantity of Denmark epoxy to cover you for the time it will take to get the remaining amount of UK epoxy? Might be an option to save money while avoiding quality assurance concerns. If you have an idea of how much you'll use in two weeks it might be worth looking into. In other words ($=money cost, #=time cost) : 100% UK ws: $$ ### 100% Denmark ws : $$$$ # 100% Denmark off brand : $$ # (but comes with quality assurance concerns) OR X% UK ws + Y% Denmark ws: $$$ # Obviously I don't know the prices you're dealing with, I'm just giving my two cents on how to think about the problem from a project management/quality assurance perspective. Also, mixing products might invalidate any guarantees made by the producers if something goes wrong... Again, I don't know but it's something to consider.
It's probably just me, but I like the look of the core under the glass. If it weren't for the markings I'd be tempted to find a clear UV-blocking deck cote to let all that hard work show. Plus, it would make for quick realization of any compromise of the core's seal.Any chance of segueing the volunteer crew to hull fairing?
I have mixed Epoxy, in borderline cold weather, on my Deck, which is under far more stress than his will ever be, and I never had any problems with delamination or anything. I even mixed in 'nano glass balls' to make the whole structure lighter. But there's always the gamble.
Stick with WS, last year i had to rush something because winter was coming and the only available epoxy was a product which i had used before (not going to release names because i don't want to give people the wrong idea). Right along the fault line between the two, only two months ago, the thing delaminated. If you start with something, don't switch, you never know what might happen. The sales rep passed me on to one of their more advised employees and he told me that different companies use different formulas and even if you key them in right, even if all the conditions are right, it's simple chemistry that can have adverse effects. Now, it can happen to you, or it might not. I'm a one time situation, thus, in no way a standard, but still, better to be safe than sorry. That's my two cents.
I think I'm with these guys. Might be fine now, might be fine a few years from now, but it might not. And when this happens it usually is when you can least afford it (like riding out weather)
Hear them! Don't let tge pressure of deadlines dictate the quality of your work. You'll be living with this boat for decades. That's a long time to spend worrying about that one occassion on which you might have compromised all the hard work you've done so far.
If the bond is acceptable with the other product and the viscosity lower it would seem to be a decent call given the climate temperatures you are looking at there.
I know how you feel I remember glassing in the last frame in my 30 foot fishing boat the feeling of that part of the job done, done for good is wonderful, I think I would pay the extra and stick with West just because its the sort of job you don't want to end up having issues with or worst doing again.
I love this series..keep up the fantastic quality of both the work and the uploads. If I was remotely capable I would be over helping you in a heartbeat
Great work as always, Mads! In hindsight, maybe you should have made some temporary 'lids' for the deck hatch holes, just for safety reasons? Keep up the good work 👍🏻
As always, well done! You've got some great friends. And for pizza, the price is right. The roof on that building looks like a starry night. I'd personally be a little concerned about changing epoxy in the middle of a project, but I also get the cost/delay factor. That's a toughie... Either way, you'll sort it out and make it right as always.Thanks for the laughs. Good luck
