Sailboat Keel Repair/Problem: SOMETHING IS MISSING FROM OUR KEEL !! (Patrick Childress Sailing #42) 

David, Thank you for your comment. We always appreciate constructive comments. Maybe you will have more to say after reading my reply. The keel faring and skeg on this Valiant 40 were made independently from the hull, in molds, then bolted onto the hull of this boat. There is no access into the keel faring or skeg from inside of the boat. The bilge is very shallow. The keel faring on this era, 1976, are known to be weak, so blocking too far aft causes unusual stress on the faring, i.e. oil-canning and possibly cracking of the rear faring skin. I don’t believe this is what the designer intended. In my mind, this is not the mark of a “blue water” sailboat. After all these decades, I wanted to find out what went wrong at the factory to cause this weakness. I found voids in the foam of the keel faring. As the designer of this boat stated, “There should be no voids in the foam.” This foam is very durable and does not easily yield. I have experience with this foam from working on the skeg of this boat. If I wanted to remove any foam, I would have to cut it out with a power saw or chisel and hammer it. It is not simple “filler”; I see this very dense, strong, foam as structural to help vertical loads. Fill the voids in the foam with something equal or stronger than the dense foam, and there would be a good chance, vertical strength would be gained. Without rambling on, I had little choice but to use unthickened polyester resin. One important thing I failed to show or mention was the slipping of many fiberglass disks into the largest void as filler/riprap. These disks are what I cut from the blisters with a hole saw. After washing and drying them, about 100 of them became filler in the lowest part of the void before pouring in the resin. I don’t work with polyester resin often but from what experience I have had, I would not see a block of this resin to be as fragile as glass crystal, as some would suggest. I have taken a 1.5 pound hammer to a small block of set up polyester and it sustained some very heavy, repetitive, blows before finally breaking. And then, there were not the sharp cutting edges, as some have suggested there would be. I could stand on the broken pieces barefoot, no problem. A new magic trick? For the purpose intended, in a confined space, surrounded by fiberglass and a very solid foam, it seems to me to be an adequate filler to transmit pressures. Am I wrong on this? One other example I have found to demonstrate the strength of a small block of polyester; 12 years ago, in Colombia , I had some guys cut out a section of the fore deck behind the windlass and in front of the inner-fore-stay chain plate. We dug out the wet balsa coring and I wanted them to fill the area with a build up of cloth and resin. I was there for the first two layers of cloth to go in. I left for 5 minutes and returned to find they simply dumped resin into the rest of the void. There must have been a language burp. Recently, I took the windlass out and ground the fiberglass to expose this area. That block of resin is still there, intact, not cracked at all. This is a high stress/vibration area. It did not shatter like glass nor has it cut anything. I will leave it in place and epoxy/layup over it, with the other fiber glassing I am doing in the area. In any case, I feel better knowing there is less of a chance of seawater getting up to and effecting the keel bolts. Additionally, now we know why there has been such an oil-canning problem for some Valiant 40 owners, and possibly owners of other boats with weak keel faring problems. For durability, when bumping down onto, or side swiping a rock, I have been adding layers of bi-axial fiberglass to the bottom of the keel. To do this, I removed the most rear support, of 3, leaving the mid and forward keel support. Soon I will reinstall the rear support and remove the middle support to continue the work forward on the bottom of the keel. I am trying to figure out some sort of jig to measure the width of the keel to accurately, when the weight of the boat is taken up at the rear of the keel faring, to determine if the filling of the voids has improved things, or done nothing at all. I will certainly let everyone know. Any other pointers you or anyone else have would be welcome.

@@RVLifeNOW Brilliant salvage and repair operation Patrick.

Always sand between coats of resin, if you don't you will have a weak bonding.

@@RVLifeNOW This is why I seriously considered building my own boat back in the 70's. My fear was that with an average 10,000 man hour build time for a good boat I am such an Obsessive compulsive perfectionist I would just now be getting it in the water... I helped a guy back in the 70's build a 40" Trimaran in Anchorage Alaska he was a medic on the Anchorage Fire Dept before I became a fire fighter. It took him 5 years and he did a beautiful job. He quit the dept. and motored south to Seattle to have a mast and rigging installed. By the time he got there he realized he hated sailing (he had never sailed a day in his life) sold the boat and worked on boats in Seattle for years, his building skills were excellent.

@@RVLifeNOW My grain of salt, yes again ,today being Sunday I decided to do nothing .if watching great videos can be called doing nothing when you are actually learning from the best. I do not know how you measured the width of the keel ,personally I would try these (untested) method : MORE SIMPLE : One plumb line from your chosen spot on the keel to the ground on a stick square to the boat axis under the keel, mark the line and the stick, go to the other side repeat with line marked length against the keel over the stick ,mark the stick again, then measure, et voila. . MORE TECHNICAL Set up two level laser beans parallel to the keel axis one on each side of the keel at a given convenient whole (1m,2 m,4 ft) spacing at the height you want your reading and measure the space horizontally from the laser to the keel on each side( slide a strait stick under the keel square to the axis as cross side reference) then do the simple math.. Lots of readings? :set up a gig for the lasers with 4 vertical supports down from the sides of the boat and a moved cross beam aft and forth.

Yes

Yeah we are thinking the same thing...but if it just comes loose...can you imagine the pain involved? But if it stays adhered for decades that would be nice. So you will have to haul out for repairs? You guys are in the Philippines if I remember correctly, so at least there are some haul out facilities! Rebecca

Same here when anchored in a very difficult situation in the Solomon Islands, the wind unexpectedly shifted, swinging, to make the aft end of our keel hit some coral. A bit of rubber on the bottom and sides would have made a big difference. Hopefully, someone will come up with a good system to adhere rubber to fiberglass. While hauled out, I think I will do some experimenting with 5200, epoxy and what ever anyone else suggests.

I hate wind shifts. You aren’t the first boat to bite the keel with a wind shift. We weren’t either. And neither of us will be the last...hope Naha will come right. -Rebecca

I had no idea how narrow the voids would be inside of the keel and needed the resin to easily flow to all areas. Yes, anything more solid than the air space is better and stronger than before!

@@RVLifeNOW - I figured you had a good reason for your plan of attack. 😁

Thanks Andrew...I’m answering back just because Patrick is out filling one of those holes right now...Thanks for watching...you are among the first :) - Rebecca

Yes…

Thank you Doug. I really wasn't sure if this subject would be of much interest to others. I hope it turns out to be so. Thanks for watching.

Thanks Marcel!-Rebecca

Thanks Dutch Globetrotter...thanks for watching and commenting!

Some catamarans have stainless steel rails on the bottom of their keels for beaching purposes.

There is also the Yahoo, Valiant Sailboat Owners Group. Lots of knowledgeable Valiant owners there.

DevonBuccaneer Thanks Devon...Patrick is out working on holes RIGHT NOW...he will see your comment later on -Rebecca

Devon, be cautious with a double ender, where the stern is as pointy as the bow. They have a terrible "hobby horse" and can be quite challenging to live on in a bumpy anchorage. Our canoe stern is far better but still, in just the right wave train, when hard on the wind, there is a slight hobby horse which slows us down. A more fuller stern is more stable and a faster sailor.

When is say double ender thats just what some of us call a canoe stern in England. I'm thinking of a Saltram Saga, Esprit 37, Westsail, Hans Christian, Pacific Seacraft, Baba or Southern Cross. Preferably with a full keep.

*keel flipping auto correct thinks it know better than me lol.

DevonBuccaneer Yes...From Bob Perry directly: “Then why did I make the Valiant 40 a “double ender”? Marketing! It was just assumed that offshore cruising boats had to be double enders and rather than buck that trend I decided to go with it and at the same time add my own twist to the shape to try and improve the performance of the double ender” ....so first came “double Enders” ...then Bob Perry tweaked them and made them a bit different for a variety of reasons... and that is what Patrick means...go for the “upgraded” version of a double ender...the canoe stern...- Rebecca

Thanks so much! -Rebecca

went with the Gurit and it is working out very well. It is good to know others use it as well. For some reason, they don't sell the pumps here so we are ordering the 5:1 pumps from the U.S..

On our boat, the keel faring and skeg are bolt on affairs so the bilge is very shallow. I was working on a friends boat where the keel and skeg were part of the hull mold causing deep canyons as you describe. I dropped a flashlight into his bilge and there was no way to get it out; far out of arms reach. I am with you on filling the voids for practical reasons.

Patrick Childress Sailing your an abundance of info enjoy the precision of your videos

What is Nytex? On our skeg, I did similar to what you did, and so heavily fibeglassed it to a large surrounding area of the hull, the skeg bolts are not needed. It is far stronger than what the factory did. If you look at our skeg, especially in the Blister Repair video, you will see it is a very different color than the rest of the hull.

@@RVLifeNOW Knitex is a knitted fabric: numerous layers sewn together on alternating bias'. Usually s-glass, available by different manufacturers. Quick way to add strength. I applied it over epoxy filler, for overhead laminating.

@@patrickhackett3878 Sounds like good stuff. Thanks!

Patrick is surely an amazing man! Nothing phases him...he just puts one foot in front of the other and keeps plugging away. I look at it and cry. -Rebecca

@@RVLifeNOW A good man often has a great woman beside him! Fair Winds Rebecca

Thanks David...nice of you to say ;)-Rebecca

Thanks for watching our sailboat keel problem video ;)

Daniel Oliver...with Patrick at the helm, I have a huge degree of confidence that she will be whole again ;) -Rebecca

Thanks for watching. Have you seen the blister repair videos...that work on the hill only began in this video..it gets uglier and tougher ;) -Rebecca

Thanks for watching Fabio. I really thought a vid about a keel problem would be a sleeper. What a surprise run it is having. I hope all is wall on board Amandla!

Gracias...I think. What language do you speak...looks like Spanish maybe? Thank you for watching - Rebecca

@@RVLifeNOW I think its Portuguese,,,,, but it says something like : I really enjoyed the video because it was very enlightening about caring for the keel of the boat. Congratulations

Anders Jakobsen Thanks so much for the translation...it doesn’t let me copy and paste for some reason.. amazing how people watch all over the world!!!

@@RVLifeNOW Olá, sou de Olinda - Pernambuco- Brasil e o idioma é português;

@@RVLifeNOW Yes, Since I`am from Norway, I tend to be farthest away. But I love Portugal, and spend some time there.Hope to go with my own bot next autumn and spend some more time...But it's always nice to see where people are from.

These "exotic ports" can be a real headache to complete repairs. It is so easy in the U.S. or Australia to run down the street to a "Home Depot" or marine store for whatever you need.

Hello...yes...there are definitely positively worse places for haul outs! Probably my most favorite yet. Nice weather even in the dead of winter...extremely nice people...near all the parks and gorgeous animals, and clean fun facility, and people who want to work hard...Could not ask for more!- Rebecca

Malaysia is a gem of a country. If we ever had to stop sailing and live in a house, it would most likely be Malaysia. I much prefer Miri, on Borneo, but Rebecca prefers the larger city of Kota Kanabalu. Even Penang, on the mainland would do...lots of good choices. And, of course, Malaysia manufactures good glue and hair driers!.

Isn't it amazing how much work is required for a 26 footer? I want to hear about your adventures.

Thank you

Thanks Sailing Kiwi. It hurt to watch him put all those holes in the boat...but in the end, the boat will be better for it! Thanks for watching...we appreciate your support! -Rebecca

Just like Gurit, I have not heard of Raka. I used the Gurit yesterday and it is performing as I would hope a proper epoxy would work. In the June 2012 issue, Practical Sailor did a comparison of epoxies. Raka was one of the 4 tested. It did very well.

Jeep Talk, we are happy you enjoyed the video. Thanks for watching.

That would be a good way to go. I know of another Valiant 40 where the owner cut out large sections of fiberglass on the port and starboard side near the aft end of the fairing to expose missing foam. That was a big job to fill the voids then rebuild everything.

@@RVLifeNOW Explorative probing revealed the fiberglass in the void hadn't been wetted out properly and in fact was a series of folds only partially wetted out so cutting it open allowed me to get to that problem as well. The disparity between the designer and the boatbuilder often offers a measure of head scratching. That conveyor belt option is interesting tho.

@@svflyingspirit4507 Good information. Thanks.

Thanks for saying…I miss him too…

Good info

Thanks for your suggestion, I just watched Mads dig the mucky foam from his bilge. I watch a lot of his videos.

Jonathan Reid This is Rebecca. It sounds like an interesting book! Thanks for watching this video and commenting...definitely watch some more of our videos before this one...Yes...we are slowly circumnavigating...out for 12 years now. Love Kuaui...May end up there someday...we will be heading to Uruguay, and then south to Patagonia and back up he other side...so the Hawaiian island certainly possible. See you there!

@@RVLifeNOW Thank you, and I see you are already slowly circumnavigating... sorry I didn't figure that out, but that's wonderful and I wish you the best and bon voyage :)

You are exactly right. There is a 56% import duty. Rebecca came back from the U.S. with large suitcases stuffed with repair parts.

I just did some layup, yesterday, on the skeg and on the bottom of the keel with the P106 resin from AMT. Looking at it this morning, amazing good stuff, like I would expect a resin to be. I quickly learned, mixing 300 gm at one time, means I can't dawdle laying up small areas....sets right up in the bucket, and that is with the slow hardener!

Sailing Channel Marinus Foreign words to me...but I just sent them an email...it’s an elevator/escalator company! Great idea! ? But do you know how they attach them in the waddensea? How long do they adhere? -Rebecca

Thank you

I checked into Gurit and it appears they have distributors all over the world. I had never heard of it before. I have been using it and it does what I would want a high end epoxy to do. My only snag is that even using the slow hardener, I have to work quickly as there really is only a 15-20 minute working time. So I am learning how to use it. Today we did two layups on the keel to hull join and yesterday did two layups on the skeg. I did pretty well guessing on the amount to mix for the square area to wet out. Unlike yesterday where the brush suddenly hardened into the slightly smoking bucket.

@@RVLifeNOW Yes, I was going to mention the fast setting time. The Gurit agent suggested I put the epoxy and catalyst in the fridge overnight and that should give a few extra minutes but I've learned to just use smaller amounts.

Have you ever seen that in the instructions? I have now tried the Gurit and it seems to be a very high quality resin. The pot life is not long though so one has to work fast and not mix up too much, even with the "slow" hardener.

@@RVLifeNOW No sir, I never seen that in the instructions, but got the tip at an epoxy makers store a few years back after taking it back for a refund. He whipped each part separately, then combined them with perfect success. I went back and finished my project. I always do this now except when using the west system. In fact, I didn't believe it would make any difference when he told/showed me. It made all the difference.

At one time I would have left well enough alone, but working next to our yard worker in Colombia, Flavite Enrique Bernate Moreno, yes he has 3 last names, I learned how to rip out our side decks to remove the water saturated balsa then put it all back together again. Right now I just cut a big square hole under the windlass and removed that wet balsa. Today, I have to start the rebuild before the rain comes this evening. Like they say about flying an airplane, "It is easy, once you know how!"

Robin, after 7 months, we are nearly ready to launch. Just finished with the Coppercoat, antifouling, today. Tomorrow I start the engine and make sure there are not problems, then Thursday we launch. Brick House is back together and stronger than when it rolled out of the factory. I will feel much better about this boat as we cross the Atlantic to Uruguay and around the south end of S. America. Thanks for your comment.

John, You are right. Thanks for pointing that out. I should have said that polyester resin eats up polystyrene foam. If I can get time tonight, I will see if I can delete my wording in the video. Once a video is up, it is extremely difficult to make any changes but deletions…I will give it a try. “Closed-cell foam provides a vapor barrier, a harder finish and higher R-value. Canned foam like GREAT STUFF™ is a closed-cell foam that comes in "single-component" form. The closed-cell foam that contractors use on large-scale spray foam jobs is also known as "two-component" foam or polyurethane foam.”

Ian, good information. I have been using the resins supplied by AMT, here in S. Africa. Their designation is SP106, which, I would not be surprised, is their Gurit, repackaged designation, for the Ampreg 26. Of course, West Systems has their general resin designated at 105 and I am told the SP106 is comparable to the West 105. I have been using the "slow" hardener but still it sets up faster than I would like, especially when mixing more than 200mg, or 6 pumps from my new metering pumps I ordered from the U.S.. I will have to see if AMT has the "extra slow" hardener. Thanks for your comment and information.

No problem. Check the Gurit web site out and compare the mechanical properties out on the data sheets see if they are the same.

Yes, I had been posting there but not for a while. Now that you mention it, I should put that on my list. Thanks!

Thanks, Tom.

yes

That is the problem working on our boat in foreign countries, familiar products are not always available. I just used the Gurit, P106, and it is very good epoxy, like I would expect an epoxy to be. Thanks for your comment.

Took me a while to figure out YGWYPF...but so true! The builder of the Valiant 40 meant the aft of the keel to not be encapsulated lead, but didn’t want any hollows ;) Are the Carters race boats or cruising boats? At least the hollow is in the back. It seems like the boat in this video with the hollow in the front, is asking for a disaster since if that part is completely hollow, it is really more like part of the hull and could sink the boat unless it is watertight from the rest of the boat :) Rebecca

@@RVLifeNOW The Carter yachts were designed by Carter who had zero naval design education, for IOR offshore racing, low budget production and suited to cruising fitout and med charter ~45 years ago. The hollow section was put there to make the boat slightly less squirrelly for cruisers, whether it worked or required more hollow forward of the original keel to balance is debatable.

All suited up and in the cool weather of Richards Bay, I don't mind the fiberglass grinding too much on my own boat. I couldn't imagine doing it as a regular job! All the other tropical climates we have passed through, it was always too hot to think about doing work like this, and being all wrapped up in safety gear.

Thank you, Wayne.

And here I wanted to keep the water out! Don't want water to migrate up to the keel boats and into the bilge.

Thanks Tino. Subbed back.

All great observations. There are, almost always, at least 3 ways of doing it right. I certainly agree getting the anchor chain out of the bow and nearer the center of the boat. If we ever bought another boat, that is one thing I would look for. I don't know why designers keep all that weight in the bow. The hollow bow of the new boat shown, is for getting it in proper trim after launch. It does seem that would be a great place to store anchor chain. But, as you point out, having the cushion of a hollow bow could be a good thing.....if it were made of steel which I believe would be less likely to breach as fiberglass would. But if the anchor chain was stored there.....maybe that would eliminate much of the cushion. It isn't just the bow though, we have seen boats on the rocks which went up sideways. It was the bottom and sides of the keel that got the heavy scrapes and thus my interest in having a strong one. I am no expert in anything in life, so anytime you think I err in these videos, please let me know. It is always good to hear from knowledgeable mariners.

@@RVLifeNOW I agree with Vincent. These hollow parts are there to act like a cushion. Otherwise if you hit something with your keel, all the force coming from the crash will concentrate to the point where the keel is joined to the hull, so it can break. But an other important point is that keels are not there just to provide weight, but to counteract the sideways force of the wind when it hits your sails. At speed the keel's vertical area acts in the opposite direction to the wind on your sails. These two vectors cancel each other out, and the remaining vector will be your speed. Without this vertical area, your boat would roll more, also the boat would go more sideways. So there is every chance that the hollow part of your keel was intentional. The designer put there enough weight, and then added more vertical area, using fiberglass for the reasons above.

It would be interesting to know if water ever got past those screws. I was thinking, after the 5200 was well set, the screws could be backed out and thickened epoxy injected into enlarged holes to seal the penetrations. Next time. thanks for your comment.

The boat, a Hake Seaward 24 footer with a shallow draft keel with wings simply could/would not make headway to weather once the wind exceeded ten knots. I tried every trick with the sails the manufacturer suggested but with no success. Now this model has a center board. Ha!

@@erichaskell if you ever need to do something similar again you can make solid plugs in the epoxy where the screws are going to go. This way the screws aren't causing aplace for water to get in. It's the same concept as when you back fill holes in a cored deck. One thing that I do different is that I'll add scraps of fiberglass to the holes in order to give the screws something to help bite into besides resin.

I filled up the voids as much as I can tell. As the designer said, "There should be no voids in the foam...." so I do expect this to take care of any oilcanning when blocked on the hard and strengthen the area in case if we should ever wind up hard on a reef. Read through the response to Catherine, the comment just below yours for more details on what and why I did what I did. The resin blisters are a common problem for the mid and late 1970s Valiants. Today I found 2 more, small, blisters, but I think this is pretty much near the end of opening thing up. In a month or two, maybe the reassembly can begin. In the mean time, there have been plenty of other projects to complete.

It certainly is not streamlined on the front and wonder how that could be improved. There are boats all over the Bahamas and the Pacific that could have used that rubber cushion on the bottom edge and better still if it wrapped up a ways on the side of the keel.

Thanks for watching…

Some want to blame the blister problem of this era of Valiant 40s on "fire retardant resin" which then seems to indicate all fire retardant resins are bad. Is it correct that the U.S. Coast Guard requires passenger carrying vessels, for hire, to use fire retardant resin in their construction? If so, then it would seem Valiant bought from the wrong supplier. 18 years ago, long before I bought into this boat, it was peeled from the waterline down and glassed over. I can see in many areas they did not go deep enough with the peel. I would really like to know if they did as you suggest and heat things to 200 degrees F for 24 hrs. That seems like a very good process. Thanks for your information and any follow up info you can give us.

@@RVLifeNOW the best way to check if it has had the heat treatment is to grind back a small area and heat it. It is very possible that the people who peeled and glassed the hull thought this was a simple osmosis problem, but it looks like you have blisters above the water line as well. This would be the fire retardant chemical problem. I worked with the naval architect who designed for uniflight on this in Anacortes, wa.

@@joeytedder This V-40 is definitely from the blister era caused by bad resin. All owners of this boat knew and so did the people who peeled below the waterline 18 years ago. Hopefully, this grind job will last at least another 18 years.

For these Valiant sailboats, there was a run from about 1976 to 1981 where they had this resin problem. Far more common, on a lot of other make boats, are the much smaller osmotic blisters, but they only appear from the water line down.

The answer is no! The way the boat is layed up is most important! Some manufacturers don't take the care and time to save money!

Fully agree with staying with the name brand products even when they cost more.

&Patrick Childress Sailing You have gone through the blender on this project. All you need is more problems. Been there, done that. No fun. Red skies at night to you.

"deadwood", that sounds like a very old term. The designer of the Valiant 40, Robert Perry, calls it a keel faring.

If we ever went to live again in the U.S., Montana would certainly be a consideration. I lived in Colorado for years, but it is too crowded now. You have a great life style. Sunglasses.....hmmm could those be Glacier Glasses? If so, that is going waaaay back to St. Thomas.

@@RVLifeNOW , I could be mistaken, but it seems to me that you came to my boat repair facility on Lake Union back in the eighties and were selling some great sunglasses. Am I mistaken? That's a possibility for sure! Montana isn't very crowded. I think the winter cold keeps people out.

You have a very good memory. I most likely did have some left over Style Eyes, Glacier Glasses I had been selling in St. Thomas. I left there in 1985 and moved to Alki Beach for a while. I don't remember, selling glasses in Seattle area but probably did. I do remember visiting a repair facility that needed someone to install a VHF radio but I did not get the job. Amazing how many seafarers, like Robin Graham and, Dan Spurr moved from the coast to live in Montana. In 1974, when I moved from Miami to Colorado, people asked if I missed the ocean. I would say no; there were so many things to do in the mountains which changed with each season. In 1978 I moved back to Miami to sail off to the big blue. It is amazing, if you are the person I talked to about a job, how the paths of sailors cross....even on the internet!

@@RVLifeNOW , it could have been you. If so, I probably had hired someone just previously. You're an easy guy to remember!

Patrick another Montanan here just getting into sailing what's a good beginning vessel. And place to look for said vessel

That is a great idea for making the attachment. No one else has suggested that a C channel and matching rail.

I may be wrong but I think you would be better off with a very hard, smooth surface on the bottom of the keel. Stainless steel would be good or maybe a very hard epoxy or other synthetic material. I believe the belt will have enough give for whatever the keel strikes to sink in and grip causing the boat to slow down very suddenly and increase the impact load. You will likely be much better with a material that will slide and divert the impact energy causing the boat to rise up and slide over the obstacle. A swipe always does much less damage than a direct impact whether you are talking about boats, cars or even athletes. The belt would only really be useful to set the boat down on a hard surface during haul out.

It is a very visible bubble that goes a layer or two deep. Some blisters go deeper.

Go down the row of comments, about 6 down, to John Edwards and learn something about epoxy. West System is not available here in S. Africa.....so if you were in a location where West is not available, what would you use?

Full apologies Patrick. Indeed, I was not aware of your location or with the difficulty of getting a suitable equivalent. BTW, I would be happy to ship you some.

@@ferhomme96 Thanks for the nice offer but like a lot of things, the shipping is far most costly than the product, especially to S. Africa. We want to install a small heating stove in the main saloon since we will be heading for the very south of S. America. Just the shipping of the stove to Richards Bay, S. Africa, would run about $1,200. Rebecca just flew back to the U.S. and will be looking in the second hand stores for a very large, hard, suitcase to carry it back in. There is no easier place to do boat work than in the U.S. where so many of the boat parts are available and cost a fraction compared to other places in the world.

TR, yes, in boat yards you see it and from advise of others, many boats should not be supported on any portion of the keel faring. I don't think one could consider such a boat a "Blue Water" sailboat. But if an owner knows about the situation, that is his discretion to live with it or fix it. Many live with it. At this point, 12 years into our voyage, I have chosen to address it, just like the resin blisters. The "oil canning" on our faring was never that bad but I felt it should not be there at all. It is my feeling, with the voids filled, the foam will help carry the loads to a greater area of the hull. If someone does not think so, that does not matter. I am confident that our boat faring is far, far, stronger than it has ever been. The blisters on this era of mid 1970s Valiant are well known and what makes the boat affordable for many owners. Other makes of boats have had similar problems. I have been anticipating for the past 5 years to get to Richards Bay and do all this work. These repairs will serve Rebecca and me well and I certainly hope new owners, some time in the far distant future. Look at the comment reply I gave to Catherine Secula, just above your comment for more insight into why I approached the repair as I did. Thanks for your comment, and we will certainly meet up, one day, in CapeTown.

Patrick , Thank you so very much for your reply . I do understand where you are coming from with your chosen fix , although for me the keel would come off and a new solid keel put on to replace it , but I also understand the expense of doing such a job as that... a very big undertaking . And yes many boats of that era had blister problems and was a long and expensive repair job . Consisting of a haul out , stripping grinding all blisters and then putting the boat inside and drying the hull out , and a lot of moister testing prior to striping a 1/4" off the bottom to repair and fair in a new bottom with vinyl-ester resins so they would not blister again... and if that process was not done correctly ... a Nightmare , just like a bad house guest , they keep coming back... lol Robert North Star

Sounds like something to consider.

James I’m sorry…I don’t know. You may or may not know that Patrick passed from Covid a few years ago. But I’m still sailing on Brick House…

Yes, of course. You can see a number of sailboats hauled out in yards resting only on the leading, solid part, of the keel. That is fine if the owner and yard are very aware of this. "Bums On a Boat" have a video where the yard rested their boat on a trailer, putting too much pressure on the fairing, which caused it to buckle terribly. Nearly anything can sail around the world but if I am going to cross oceans on a "Blue Water" sailboat, and thread through the shoal water of the Bahamas and coral atolls of the Pacific, I want a keel that can stand on its own where a grounding might happen. I don't want a bad situation to turn even worse because of an underbuilt keel faring. Thanks for your comment. Your comments are always welcome.

Hi Alfred..yes there is... whereisbrickhouse.com/see-our-track/

No i dont think anyone sails here for that reason ;) I think that everone just sail here enroute to points west. Not that many actually do the extensive boat work, like a blister repair job that we did because of that! Visas are a big pain. Possinly rhe ones rhat do stop and get hauled out. Its because they need it, or because of the affordable labor rates -Rebecca

It does seem a wood like iroko would stick better than a rubber conveyor belt. Good idea. Sikaflex is a brand. What form of Sikaflex did you use?

Hi Patrick, as it was 19 years ago I am not sure but looking at the data sheets I would use Sikaflex 292. There were no mechanical fastenings, I made sure the fibreglass was cleaned down with acetone and after shaping the Iroko and doing a trial fit I applied the Sikaflex to both surfaces. It was then chocked and wedged in position whilst it cured. It will have a tendency to slide so I wrapped some blocks in packing tape and clamped them either side of the keel to keep the wood in position. The excess Sika was scraped off and wiped clean whilst wet, acetone or meths will remove it. The packing tape meant the blocks did not stick. Cheers Roger

Thanks

Yes I miss them too -Rebecca

You never hear of a keel or rudder falling off those old boats like what happens to the new production boats. Hopefully now that we have a more solid keel faring and all the resin blisters have bee ground out and laminated fair, maybe the worst of the maintenance on this 43 year old boat will be done.....for a while.

I really wanted to have some sort of blasting, sand, soda, wet, whatever but the yard had no accommodation for that due to an apparent not so good previous experience. It is all in the previous video....I used heat stripping which is a delicate operation but it meant not sending tons of dust into the air and raking up the results as we worked.

You can watch the different ways Patrick used to remove our bottom paint here : ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-ULfJxWhG4_s.html Its truly a “mans flick” with all those tools! ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-ULfJxWhG4_s.html

ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-ULfJxWhG4_s.html. That’s the video for how he removed the bottom paint...Lots of tools...lots of work...I don’t know why my previous reply got taken down!-Rebecca

There is no keel access in a Valiant 40. Do you know the wall thickness of the P-42 keel? That would be very interesting to compare to the 3/8" of my V-40

i agree, i would have used a high density expanding epoxy from them

Interesting

Я добавил много стекловолокна вдоль нижней части киля и на стыке киля с корпусом. Теперь сильнее, чем когда-либо. Мы едем в Огненную Землю на южной оконечности Южной Америки, поэтому лодка должна быть в хорошем состоянии. Спасибо за просмотр нашего видео. YA dobavil mnogo steklovolokna vdol' nizhney chasti kilya i na styke kilya s korpusom. Teper' sil'neye, chem kogda-libo. My yedem v Ognennuyu Zemlyu na yuzhnoy okonechnosti Yuzhnoy Ameriki, poetomu lodka dolzhna byt' v khoroshem sostoyanii. Spasibo za prosmotr nashego video

Thanks for watching…

Are you saying surf boards are hollow on the inside? All surfboards I am familiar with start out as foam blocks then glassed over. Without the foam, not even a light child could stand on it. And this is the point I am making about my keel fairing. As the designer of this boat says, "There should be no voids." With a mere 3/8" skin of glass, that is nowhere strong enough to support the load of the boat when hauled out of the water. I don't care what any one says, that foam adds structural support in a vertical direction. The one Valiant 40 of this era, that I know of, which most definitely has a full foam fairing, has no problem blocking anywhere on the keel, when he hauls out. This is a simple, "this works, that does not" demonstration. No theory or mathematical computation is needed. Having a fragile keel faring, is that what one would want in a "Blue Water" boat? That would not do well when bumping the bottom in the Bahamas or tapping on a reef in the Pacific. A "Blue Water" boat needs a strong keel, even the fairing part. Additionally, having no voids eliminates the possibility of water migration up to the keel bolts. Thank you for your thoughts. I am no expert on anything, just one who learns from my own mistakes. It is always good to get others perspectives.

The foam only holds the skin in place so the load can be carried by the fiberglass. Some surf boards use polystyrene, which is the material that cheap ice chests are made of, its very soft and you can push a hole in it with your finger. It works because it holds the two fiberglass sheets (top and bottom) far enough apart so the board doesn't fold. The point is a surf board has a 180 lb man bouncing up and down in the middle of a 9 foot board, and its only .0625 inches thick fiberglass, and its nowhere close to folding. Your keel is 6 times thicker, and there is no point load on it like a surf board. If you see some flex when its hauled out, there's probably nothing to worry about.

The skins on a surfboard, when flat in the water, are in compression and tension like the top and underside of a beam. The sides of the keel void without internal structural bonding/support are like the vertical web of a beam with little to no capping top and bottom to give it stiffness, they would have to be massively thick to be stiff enough for Patricks peace of mind. Totally different kettle of fish. And point load via impact, is exactly what Patrick's concerned about, yes, in the water, equalised pressure, but whack a bommie or rocks and you have a completely different situation. Having said that, straight resin of any sort, without reinforcement, lacks strength and polyester resin, over time, as an adhesive, performs pretty poorly. I think, yes, the void is now filled, however I'm concerned that structurally, little has been achieved. I could be wrong.

The loads are in all different dimensions, as it bounces up and down and sideways through the waves. Drilling holes in the hull and squirting stuff in, is like taking a wild ass guess that you might do some good, hoping the resin might stick to something inside. If not, its just dead weight, and he'll never know if it adheres or not. That is no way to reinforce a hull. Its better to leave it alone.

I watched once as polyester resin ate right through polystyrene foam. Nothing seems to bother the foam used in the keel or skeg of this boat.

@@RVLifeNOW I have used polyester over spray can pu foam with no problem

Yes, thank you, Chuck. I have been trying to cut that part out of the video but the editor is not working properly in RU-vid. In the video description, I put an Error note. I should have said polyester resin will eat up polystyrene.

A rod, like an earth quake bolt, is an interesting idea. Like the designer of the boat said, there should be no voids in the foam. Any deformation/oil canning, occurred when blocked in the area of the largest void. As the designer of this boat says, "There should be no voids."

@@RVLifeNOW At the very least, even if no bolt is used. Adding some finely (and not too much) fiberglass in the polyester resin would have added strength. Trying to adhere something to foam is futile, the foam will always delaminate.

As the designer of the boat says, "There should be no voids in the foam." Now there is no way water can get in the keel and possibly migrate up to the keel bolts and rust them. No freezing water either.

Ha....freezing water? Yeah...we are gonna maybe go to Patagonia...but in the summer thank you...Please Patrick...don’t take me anywhere that there will be freezing water!-Rebecca

The owners must live out of town because I don't see them around much. They recently had the antifouling renewed. I see no for sale signs but I will ask next time they show up.

@@RVLifeNOW thanks mate! great videos btw.

You are developing some interesting attachment possibilities here. Thanks.

Yes…good product for sure

John, Thank you for that great information. I experimented and found that unmarked resin set up far better with a 2:1 mix. The sales people in the shop don't know what they are selling. Where in the world are the biggest epoxy component mfgrs. located? Also, that Kossan glue, any idea what they use for a thickener to turn the resin into glue? Cotton fibers?

@@RVLifeNOW Glues can use several things but fumed silica is most common and best but yes cotton fibre wood fibre wood flour ground minerals like limestone, mica, talc. silica are all used to a greater or lesser extent. I am retired but the main resin makers used to be Korea USA and China probably still the same the hardeners are usually USA or Europe though China is growing. Usually manufacturers try to make mix ratios whole numbers so do some tests sounds like 2;1 is good but can be 4;1 too rarely 3;1 but GP resin packs are 1;4 or 1;2 with an occasional 1;5. Remember to be careful with the hardeners they are the insidious toxic part if you become sensitised to them then it can be very debilitating particularly if you get sensitised to all amines because then your own body wastes will slowly eat you away (rare but not impossible).

@@TheBeaker59 Would there be any problem with using common baking powder as a thickener?

@@RVLifeNOWI don't know really never heard of that I guess so but it would become a little porous with time in a moist environment.

I don't think it's a false keel. Rather for the displacement of the boat, only so much lead is needed. The rest is for the helm. Most sailboats carry a weather helm in that they normally turn up into the wind on a neutral rudder. This is because the C of LE on the sail is behind the C of LR on the keel. Putting more keel (without lead) toward the rear will tame that tendency and make the boat faster and more manageable.

Thank you. Sorry for the late reply...still trying to answer all these comments...

As somewhat stated in the video, all the yard contractors use AMT Composites for a supplier of Gurit resin. That is the direction I have gone because of their recommendation. As an aside, I tried the junk resin at a 2:1 ratio and it performed much better. Some sales people don't know what they are selling.

Also...most of the resin used in the keel was the good stuff leftover from Malaysia. Only a small amount from the local chandlery was used before we got the great advice from local sailors and yard workers to try AMT Composites. We are so happy to be in an area where people are aware of the differences in quality of things like resins, etc. SOUTH AFRICA IS SO AWESOME! - Rebecca