Jacob once fought a fucking angel for a whole day just because he wanted the angel to give in a blessing. The angel fucking gave up and gave him his blessing just so Jacob would leave him alone. There are real statues of this over the world.
I'm Catholic and I've read the Bible and even with all it gives it doesn't give some good info on who Satan and Lucifer are or even what side they are on. I did feel though that Satan and Lucifer are actually two different beings but have their own roles in regards to their relationship with humanity. Just another way to look at it. I will still follow God but I think the main point overall is that the devil can be anyone or anything that tries tempt us to sin. Sorry if I'm preaching.
Also a bit about Judaism if you know that Judeo-Christian isn't a thing because Christianity and Judaism developed along seperate paths so the New Testament depictions have nothing to do with Judaism and Jews never stopped reading Hebrew (meaning the mistranslation was a christian thing), so the "right hand of God that tests humanity to see if they're worthy" is just the Jewish depiction. If you didn't know that, you you'd leave less informed about Judaism! Yay! /s
@@AdumbroDeus so being gay isn’t bad as Christians say, cuz I am tired of them acting on some demon lol. I’m catholic never bothered to read the Bible though
@@lulu_TheWitchBoy I mean, from a Christian perspective? They have their own internal logic for how they read Jewish scripture based on fitting it into a universal faith-based religion mold. That said that internal logic is the basis for Christianity and is really makes no sense as a way to read an ethnohistory of a mostly orthopraxical ethnoreligion. So Christianity kinda doesn't make sense imo lol
TLDR: Nyarly is actually Satan and he's here to tempt us to play Shin Megami Tensei to test us. Nice try Nyarly, but I saw through your wicked plans! 👺
Many myths and religous stories are more comedy than anything else really. Lucifer is in the stories more of a teenager with daddy issues than the lord of darkness
My guy, people have literally tried to kill each other over Voltron and Steven Universe. Razors embedded in cookies and cyberbullying a teenager into suicide. Soap Operas could start wars.
From what I can tell, Helel is Lucifer before his fall, Lucifer is after his fall, and Satan is the old testament depiction of him. The first two are the same, but Satan is something else entirely. This might explain why all of them have different Arcanas in several games. Although I might be wrong about all of this.
Woah, a chance to actually use my philosophy of religion degree! Okay, so, you said a lot of great things, but there is another interpretation of the differences between the Satan of the Old Testament and the Satan of the New Testament. Many secular and religious scholars believe that (since Satan merely means "Adversary" or "Accuser") Satan is merely a title given to two beings, the Satan of Job and the Lucifer of Genesis and the New Testament, roughly equating to the depiction of Satan and Lucifer in SMT (although, like you said, Lucifer also draws inspiration from Enlightenment-era Lucifer romanticization).
Interesting, I suppose there's no reason why there couldn't be more than one adversary and if Jesus would've been tempted as a human then he also would've become "Satan".
It is fun to ponder, but regardless of the source of our temptations, scripture is clear that we as individuals are held accountable for our sin. If there is a God, I doubt I'll be able to say "you should have been more clear on whether Satan and Lucifer are the same person."
No pointing out that Judaism and Christianity just don't have a consistent interpretation of Satan so this video was actually about contrasting different christian readings. What a disappointment.
I mean when learning about the bible, you never look it as A Book, but instead A Series of Books, written by different authors, spanning different eras and generations, intended for different audiences of different groups, that's why you first start reading it, you think your seeing contradictions when in reality it's just different author's point of views, I have a Bible that has the Author, the Date it was written in, and it's original intended audience written along with the Book it is referring to.
Great research man! THIS is why I fell in love with jRPGs that takes ancient text, religion, mythologies and incorporates them into their stories and characters.
Beelzebub is a translational corruption of baal, the lord of those that fly, the meaning of which got twisted into "lord of the flies" a gaff iconic enough to become the title of a book.
The concept of Satan in theology is mostly a placeholder for the things you describe, temptation, cruelty, judgment and the like, but Lucifer holds an interesting place in the gestalt of human consciousness. A sort of meta-rebel, if you will.
In my first playthrough of my first Persona game, which was P4G, I was around lv. 24 when a fusion accident gave me Satan. Needless to say, it was awesome getting it but I didn't use it because I wanted to get through the game normally
@@davidlarkin1040 Yeah I held off on using it until much later in the game. I really didn't want to take advantage of a massive fluke like that my first time playing
I believe that old gods just go by different names and are likely demons. Think how many times they recycled Ishtar/Inanna/Astarte/Aphrodite/Venus. The Greeks and Egyptians also had plenty of overlap. Allah is likely the newest iteration of Baal honestly.
@@gottesurteil3201 Allah is the same Abrahamic god of Judaism and Christianity. Allah literally just means "the creator"; they are the same figure as YHWH and Jehovah, just in a different language
And furthermore the reason Islam came about was a rejection of the "old gods" of the middle east (of which Ba'al is one), primarily rejecting the practice of idolatry
I was actually reading on this topic a couple of weeks ago and got really confused about Satan´s role in the old testament and the shift in Revelations. I suppose you could attribute that like you said to the translation of the bible, seeing as "Satan" is the title given to an agressor and all.
OMG I was at the SMT cosplay gathering at AX as FeMC!!! I just now discovered your RU-vid channel!! What a small world :D damn that was almost over a year ago...
generally, pretty good video, especially for people not familiar with the subject in general. But there's a few things I want to say. 8:16 actually is just Gideon making stuff up. I'm pretty sure the original script just had him rebel in the end because YHVH was incompatible with a true law world. I'll edit the source here if I find it. He still wanted to use the meggido arc because it's a necessary means to establishing a law world. wanting to overthrow God to establish anarcho-monarchism is an ideology though. And it kinda goes with all of the "wrld of str" stuff when you consider that the Beast/powerful worldly rulers and Satan are the strong shaping a totalitarian world that goes in their benefit. it's important to consider second temple Judaism when looking at satan's development. Although the apocalyptic literature from that time isn't canon, its texts like the book of Enoch clearly establish Satan and demons as full on enemies of God. So by the 1st century AD the idea certainly wasn't something out of left field. Secondly, as you said, satan is just hebrew for 'opposer', so there wouldn't be a contradiction in the old testament Ha-Satan and new testament fallen Satan coexisting as separate beings. Then if we take the catholic christian canon as true, revelation is true, which implies that satan fell before the fall of man because of him wanting to overtake heaven/the world (revelation 12:9). Third point is, the synoptic gospels and John clearly present Satan as an outright enemy and not a ha-satan. For example Matthew 12:22-28 implies Satan is on the same side as the demons and pagan gods (taking into conideration that beelzebub is just a mock name of baal national deities in general), and John is very explicit about Satan being the evil ruler of the world (John 8:39-47 and 14:28-31)
Ok, while Christianity in general started off as a splinter group of Judaism (a lot of the theology is from the Essenes even while a lot of Christian culture is based on the Romans), so there is a certain amount of things in Christianity that came from minority views in Jewish thought that subsequently were rejected. That it theoretically could've originally came from a Jewish group isn't the same as it being a the Jewish position on Satan. While it's certainly possible the original authors of the gospels were within this aforementioned possible group of Jews that thought this way, and it remained the dominant view because christianity became a less Hebrew speaking group so the issues weren't obvious between his description as God's tester and fallen angel and demon even after it was never more than a minority view in Judaism and even that minority has long abandoned it. This isn't necessarily the case because we don't have anywhere close to the original NT manuscripts in their original form, the synoptics heavily use Satan as a tester (using the specific word) but then also share an incident where he's opposed to God. Even Matthew (who were know was a Jew writing for a Jewish audience) has it, it makes little sense to use a minority Jewish view as a significant part of your argument to Jews, so there's a firm possibility that was a later translation/error. John 8:39-47 doesn't reference Satan by name in the KJV (or DR, or the Latin Vulgate for that matter), he's referenced in the last supper which still fills a role of tester, similar to Job. Revelations on the other hand, is littered with references to Satan being pure evil, coincidentally it probably doesn't have Jewish authorship and the version of the Tanakh it's referencing is probably a Greek translation. Oh and Enoch doesn't refer to Satan as a fallen angel, it refers to azazel which later christian thought equated with Satan. Point is, there'd have to be more evidence to assert that the Jews in early christianity saw Satan this way. But either way, it certainly doesn't make a strong case for a Jewish view, it's possible it was a minority Jewish view at the time which ultimately died in favor of maintaining the view presented in the Tanakh, but that doesn't substantiate equating the Jewish and Christian images of Satan, the Christian view of Satan really doesn't fit with the Tanakh, at all.
I believe in the old Testament it's just that the translation screws some things up. Satan was already fallen,but that didn't mean he couldn't speak to god. God is omnipotent after all, see he can argubly hear everything. He actually wasn't in heaven in job
The concept of Satan being fallen just, isn't a thing in Judaism. So, no any implications of that in the old testament are a product of poor translation of the Tanakh.
from my understanding, jewish has no differentiation between good and evil. Everything happens because God's will, either bad or good. That's why Satan is not even evil. Perhaps, the new testament is influenced by the greek philosopher or zoroastrianism. So, the good and evil concept even exists in new testament
This has taught me more about how to interpret satan than church has taught me period. "Satan do bad. Satan Evil" Or " necessary evils, seperate identities, trial or malice."
This is why the video is so frustrating to me. That's not the takeaway you should get. Satan as a bad guy and fallen Angel, combined with Lucifer is the Christian interpretation of Satan. Satan as a tempter and Divine Prosecutor is a Jewish interpretation of Satan. That one is "wrong" instead of the product of different traditions is what you conflate those traditions instead of taking them individually. Judeo-Christian is not a thing.
Also just some trivia. Satan in Apocalypse is the highest leveled Demon in the series, at level 120, you can only fuse him on New Game Plus. And yeah Megido Arc is definately the strongest attack move in Megaten. before the highest level demon was I believe Asura-o in the first Megaten game at level 110, but you couldn't fuse him in that game, he did join as a ally tho on the Chaos path.
I've always felt that Lucifer/Satan in SMT was heavily inspired by his depiction in Paradise Lost where he acts as antagonist and a bit like a protagonist in a greek tragedy. A rebellious force of change to combat the stagnant order of God who ends up damning humanity and his comrade angels by paving the way to hell with his good intentions. Given the heavy vein of Jungian psychology in SMT and Persona, it could be reasonable to assume that Lucifer and Satan are a manifestion of the human desire to oppose the order of things. With Lucifer as that which opposes for the sake of others, and Satan as that which opposes for the sake of self.
I think that Jungian psychology works better with Persona: In those games, they come from the consciousness of humans to defend their psyche. However, Jungian psychology has a clear distinction between "psyche" (all psychic processes) and "soul" (our personality). The soul is probably the reason why demons/personas show up, because someone's soul is being threatened in some sort of way (mostly seen in P4)
I hope they'll bring Satanael as a pre-fallen tempter version of Satan into the main Shin Megam Tensi serious instead of locking him as Jokers persona.
@Nyarly Satan is a title. There is possible more than one. Hence, why The Devil is always called Satan. The Devil is Satan, and more confusingly, The Devil is also a title. So yes, Lucifer is Satan, and the Devil, but the Satan of Job's book isn't necessarily the same Satan.
Seems like Satan's appearance in DDS2 is similar to Demi-Fiend in DDS1: it shows that the DDS world is a part of the Amala Universe, but not directly connected to the mainline conflict between Law and Chaos.
Great video! I would like to give the eastern orthodox perspective on this subject if that's OK. So to us satan and devil are like titles. A devil/demon is a satan and a satan is a devil. In Greek the word for devil is διάβολος (daivolos), meaning the one who deceives and accuses. Satan in Hebrew means the adversery or the enemy, we see that both titles fit every demon. Now the Satan and the Devil are all the same demon Lucifer since he was the greatest angel makes sense to be the greatest demon/devil /Satan. Our Church Fathers do not take a dogmatic approach to whether Lucifer or another high ranking demon are the ones who appear in the different stories of the Bible but in every story they are bad and they try to deceive. Now why is satan in God's divine council in Job. In the orthodox faith heaven and hell are not physical places but rather states of being. We believe that God is like a consuming fire, so those who reject Him feel His love like hellfire and those who love Him as a gentle warmth. Since God is everywhere (πανταχού παρόν), every angel and demon are in His presence. I hope you will find these interesting. And again great video.
Hey bro, this is an amazing video and all, but what about sataneal, like I understand that he is the opposition to the demiurge that is yaldaboath, but I'm wondering how he relates to Satan and the devil
Satanael is described as one of Yaldabaoth's Angels or Archons who rebelled against him upon realizing that he wasn't the true God. He's the serpent that tempted Eve and works with the Gnostic Holy Spirit, Sophia to free mankind from Yaldabaoth's rule.
I feel Satanael is the kind of romanticised version of this but what I think it’s Morgana that says when gods misbehave demon lords come to punish them meaning that he isn’t an angel but it sort of shows that devils and demons aren’t necessarily evil but a bit like political forces like you said.
Funny thing is that Lucifer is the progenitor of the romantic hero- the one that discards God and decides to be free instead. Milton's Lucifer from Paradise Lost is even the base for the novel that started the sci-fi genre (that mostly revolves around humanity trying to imitate/surpass God in a way)- Shelley's Frankenstein, where Victor is often compared to a God trying to create a perfect human, but is ashamed of his achievement and discards the Monster (that often compares himself to the Lucifer, God's lesser beloved son. He even says that he perceived himself as Adam at first, but realised he was the Devil). Also, you could have at least mention Satanael and Jaldabaoh from P5. Where, in a romantic spirit, Satan goes agaisnt the God that tries to enslave humanity.
Cultural christianity would tend to do that. Just keep in mind this video is about Christianity, the "OT" interpretation he points to is pretty close to the Jewish one, but for obvious reason Judaism has no need to create consistency between the NT and the Tanakh.
The first time I played Persona 3 Fes(My first SMT game) and saw Satan in the Fusion, I Paused....and then went Hellyeah, I'm gonna wreck havoc in Tartarus, Satan became a staple demon in Playthrough when ever he is available.
Satan was in charging of covering things up(I don't think there's any indication what his original name was but there might be in the future), it's unclear what that means exactly, so I'm guessing he was responsible for making things look prettier.
I used to have a copy of SMT 1 when I was younger and never knew that it was closely related to Persona 5. So does that make me an original fan or what?
While I am not holding my breath, I am hoping one or both of these guys appear in SMT 5. Lucifer preferably with one of his older designs (or a 12 winged version design by Kazuma Kaneko, near impossible I know but a guy can dream) and Satan with his SMT 4 Apocalypse design. Have them both play important roles in the story, or at the very least have them in as super bosses. Seeing as we will likely never get an OFFICIAL English release/translation of SMT 1&2 (I am not counting the IOS version as they stopped updating that for modern IOS phones/tablets years ago) the closest I will get will be facing them in SMT 5. Loved how Satan was in SMT4A but I did not like Lucifer's design or character in either version of SMT4. From what I have seen of Lucifer's other iterations, SMT4 did not do him justice at all.
I always thought his role (and most angel's roles) changed with the specific game's particular interpretation of YHVH: if it's old testament douche-YHVH then he serves and tests. if it's new testament bread-and-wine-YHVH then he rebels.
I’ll be honest, I don’t know much about megamitensei as a whole, but when it comes to Persona, I like to imagine that the sea of souls contains everything, including alternative versions of the same being (take Loki’s design and posture in P3/4 and P5) which allows people to have the same Persona but as different entities to their owners. Because of this, I just assume ld it was the same for Lucifer and Satan but it was cool hearing the history of those 2 in the bigger universe that Persona is a part of.
Yeah cuz demons in SMT r real demons. And Lucifer n God r probably multiverse level being. He's quite a good guy who wanna end the cycle in SMT3 & 5's universe tho.
Lots of mistakes in what you are saying: 1. First and most important one, Lucifer is Satan. The words from Isaiah you mention are spoken to the king of Babylon, but they are directed to the person controlling him: the devil. We know this bc obviously the King of Babylon wasn't in heaven with God and a cherub who tried to steal his throne as mentioned in those verses; and also because this is something that happens in the Bible in other times: Jesus called Peter Satan in Matthew 16:23, being that Peter was talking by his influence; again, speaking to Peter, directing to Satan. 2. Lucifer did fell from heaven before Adam. The reason you see him in heaven in the book of Job is bc: "there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them". So the Bible says literally that he was not in heaven already. 3. Satan is evil. People think he punishes bad people as a judge from God but that is inaccurate. More precisely he is a torturer of the people who stray from God and a deceiver of those who aren't truly faithful to him; he does this out of hate to God and mandkind. John 10:10 is pretty clear about this: "The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy..." 4. Idk about the gnostic version of the events, but if you're sticking to the Bible, there is no Satanael. There is Lucifer before he fell from heaven, and there is Satan after that. As mentioned, -el is for angels, so calling someone the "Enemy Angel" wouldn't make sense. If you don't believe, that's your business, I'm writing this just so people can have a clear idea of who Satan is according to the Bible.
honestly from what I can tell christianity is a fucking mess that's been translated and re-translated so many times for so many reasons, with mistranslations being added in or fixed by mistake or for politics, that it can become god knows impossible to know what it's actually trying to say in many places
@@gypsysprite4824well no translation is 100% correct and no human has 100% same mindset, so yeah that’s why. Also, that’s the balance of the mortal world
That's because the old and new testaments are secretly worshipping two different (opposing) gods. It's just a loose interpretation of the lost book of enki just like most other religions. But the lost book of enki is all about the oldest recorded religion from the first civilization to ever create written language. The mesopotamians. Furthermore I would love to see enki, enlil, etc represented in smt, but they already are in plenty of other demons in the series under different names, like the Dogū doll demon (I forget his name)
In ancient mystical Judaism, Satan was an angelic office, like an appointed angel (of 72 total) would be like God's DA for awhile, accusing and judging and making a case against people in the head in order to 'tempt' them into pleading guilty. Because different angels were responsible for different things, they would have to be switched out to test people in different ways. Lucifer, the first rebellious angel was the light bearer and he 'betrayed' God by trying to turn and go back, leaving the world in darkness. So St Michael struck him down to the world, hence him being 'prince of the world' and trying to lure man into creating immortality here, thus making heaven irrelevant. Etc etc
idk if someone has already asked this here, but i'm so curious that i'll ask anyway (SMT IVA spoiler ahead): What the hell is the difference between the Purple/Blue Satan used in P5 and some others to fuse Lucifer and the Black/grey and red Satan that is a fusion between Lucifer and Merkabah?
Lol. Play more Megaten games. Satan is equal to Lucifer in SMT II and Lucifer is just a component of Satan in SMT IV: Apocalypse so by your logic that makes Satan stronger.
As a person who believes in God (but I don't poses any religion) it's always intriguing to learn about these things. Wonder what my grandparents would think about this lol.
Um First, there are three heavens: first (sky), second (space), third (God's abode) It is implied Satan fell from the third to second, as Revelation calls angels stars, and this was when he was Lucifer. And Jesus Himself states that Satan fell to earth while He was on earth. Luke 10:18 18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
If you read some cliffnotes from the Book of Enoch, Noah's great grandfather, I find it helps with the setup of SMT. The angels lived among the human creations teaching them writing, art, and mating with the daughters of man. It angered god and he accosted the angels. He told the humans they had no need of knowledge or writing. And the angels stood up in defiance to god, while the humans cowered in fear. God cast the angels down. Within their hearts grew fierce feelings of injustice, along with a searing hate and disgust at the betrayal of the humans they took such care of. Humans did not stand with the angels against god. They kneeled and capitulated to gods demands. And that's why "demons" have disdain for humans. I always thought of Lucifer as trying to give humans knowledge with the apple. Trying to liberate them from being mere slaves. Lucifer and the fallen angels created evil, not from malice, but from stirring curiosity, independence of spirit, creative thinking, collective consensus. All of which were absent when they were just livestock for god. They created evil by taking away human ignorance. And nothing could be more "evil" in god's eyes. But the intent was probably not to harm. Therefore Lucy and the gang feel betrayed by their god, and by those they thought they liberated. And so stews their hate. So whenever you see Lucy, he's the original rebel. The liberator of humans who got banished for his troubles. And he is conflicted. To cheer for human growth, wanting to encourage the spark of knowledge that can lead to humans being equals with gods. Or to strike them all down because of their betrayal, and the anger that festers for eons as he sits imprisoned. :P
good job, i am gonna al little thing you forget, say that this distintion is mostly because the jewish apocaliptic movements of the second temple period, who trying to define what "evil" is so they created some sort of fallen angel who control the kingdoms of the world (some kind of conspiracy) so that when the messiah comes he will cast out the fallen angels and their worshipers to the fire and bring some sort of golden age. this interpretations brings books like enoc and jubilies, and the the intepretations of the church fathers latter find the poem of isaiah, that also explain the diferences between the old testamentent despiction of satan and the new testament one, because the preachings of jesus are akin with the apocaliptic judaism of that era
as someone who never read the bible and is an atheist how does helel go into all of this i dont understand i was genuinely so perplexed when i saw lucifer and helel on my fusion list at the same time and they both had morning star
The bible is like Bleach manga. You read, read, read and you understand nothing of any subplot and they all finish without and actuall satisfying ending anyway.
no, the bible is like jojo people make an effort to read it quickly and that is why they get confused and skip content and that is why they blame the author that the work has plot holes.
@@LelouchOnTwi While i get where you are coming from, that is too literal of an interpretation. Personas are just personality traits and archetypes represented by mythological figures. His persona being Satanael is most likely meant to represent rebellion, in this case against the complete order of law because it hinders peoples freedom, especially Yaldabaoth's Law, which is complete and utter control.
The bible is one of those fictional universes that has way too much lore. It's appreciated how much effort they put into writing the story and fleshing out characters, but overall, its just confusing and there are too many conflicts.
It's better explained as a fanwork tcreated by overlaying their material on original that pretends the original supports the later interpretations even though it obviously doesn't.
Fair analysis but do not give the impressions that the demns in persona are characters. In persona 5 speciphically they are representations of famous characters throughout history as percieved by the consciousness of the population, not actual characters on to themselves, hence why persona games rarely feature them as having deep personalities.
