SCARY MOMENT IN A THERMAL | Flying Simon 

Standard rules in Australia is to enter the thermal opposite side of any other gliders in the thermal, and radio that you are joining. Those two others joining were using bad form.

Going into a dive is always a bad idea in thermals as you can't see beneath your plane. Steepening your turn whilst slightly increasing speed was a good reaction I think.

this is the reason I stopped competitions. People think, that everything can be under control. But it is chaotic by nature if the glider density gets to high. One small reaction from one glider can cause a chain reaction. This is one of the reason for collisions where nobody can be blamed really. The other reason is simply reckless flying from pilots who want to gain 3 seconds on pull ups in bussy thermals. We have to reduce glider density in competitions: change start procedures, stop 10km Flarm range, time delayed OGN only, give Bonus points for people in the lead

VFR see and avoid......nailed it.

I think you acted calmly, reacted quickly and also able to analyze this after the event. Hope the other person did the same or at least you spoke with them

It was the right reaction, I accidently caused the same situation a few months ago. Luckely we were just with three, two twin astir II and i was flying a jeans astir cs. The instructor in the backseat of the twin reacts opposite to you and flies out of the thermal but in that situation that was the best reaction. In your situation it couldn't be possible cuz there were other gliders on your left side. Nice video though!

exactly why i don't like to fly competitions: people tend to bully their way into thermals and shit get loose

Having had competition gliders join me in thermals I have to say you have to treat them with the utmost respect because they don’t give a f**k about you or anyone else. They bully their way in and only care about their mission. It might be the few, but they leave the bad impression.

In my view, soaring is a lot like mountain climbing. There are good reasons that there are not much competitions in mountain climbing. You can always compete with yourself by expanding your goals and experience. And I agree to Phillipp Keller that if people need to be in soaring competitions, then it should be more safe than today.

... That is not how I have learned to join a thermal, I hope you had the opportunity to have a chat with the guy who pushed you to make this manouevre.. he made a mistake not you, well done to prevent an accident, probably I would have done the same. What concerns me is that the flarm did not sound an alarm at the moment you reacted.. this means the glider on your left also did not have a warning.... The Flarm only made a sound after the incident.

Middle finger evolving into a boot to the head once you have sought him out on the terra firma

The person who joined was probably an expert and would have blamed you anyway if taken to task about it.

I'm currently attending a course for glider pilot and what I learn from this video is to avoid this kind of competitions. When there are so many gliders the safety drastically decreases, in my opinion... You never know which is the expertise and the sense of responsibility of another pilot. Thanks for sharing.

"Should've hit the brakes, and watched them fly right by".

I think you handled it well. For a start you identified the threat. Your evasive decision was consistent with the gaggle direction and you didn’t rely on the other pilots actions. Good job 👌

"If you have poo, throw it now"

The way we flew back in a days - any joining glider has to yield to gliders already in a thermal. It is easy with 5 gliders, how about 52 in the same thermal? Being aware and polite is the rule. Lesson here - incoming glider pilot has to be more aware of the situation and someone has to teach them how to do it a proper way.

I think you reacted really well. The other pilot, if they can be called that. not so much.

What you should have done is to get the two joiners after landing and punched them in the face. That was an extremely poor way of joining a thermal and that kind of behavior is unacceptable. I think that the general take home message for you is that people will do this kind of stunts, and you should fly considering that you might enter into that situation. However keep into account that I don't like gaggles and I leave the thermal when I can't have full vision of all the gliders in the thermal, so I normally leave thermals with more than three gliders, but I am not a competition pilot.

The situation went out well so you reacted correctly. Nice vid..

A few years ago my friend Rudy was in a sailplane with a student who was in a thermal over a Pemberton, BC campsite and they were suddenly hit by a Cessna setting up for a landing at about 1500 ft asl with a man, his wife, and a dog, there were no survivors. Even though the sky is big, accidents happen.

Usually going belly up into traffic will cause you to lose sight, and you have to assume he doesn't see you. However, an aggressive turn into the center of the circle (as you did) should keep you clear. I would probably have lowered my nose, leveled the wings, and gone under and behind him, then flying a wider turn to merge behind your traffic. That keeps him in sight the whole time. That maneuver would be more like an overshoot during a fighter/tactical aircraft formation turning rejoin, which I'm more used to doing (not that I overshoot the rejoin that often :) I couldn't see on the video where the traffic was after you steepened the turn. A radio call would have helped notify the others that you're "inside their turn for collision avoidance". I've seen others turn inside the circle, stall the glider, and fall down through the center of the thermal, scaring the crap out of everyone. I just saw a white flash falling by on my left, and a radio call, "Sorry guys". Be careful. Things can change very fast. USAF, American Airlines, ASW28

I remember back than when i did my PPLC i had a similary situation . I wasnt trained yet to fly so close with someone together in a thermal since i started practice flying solo on our dualseater just recently and i did exactly what you did, while i was in a climbing turn. i saw another glider coming in from my 10 oclock (almost 10 feet lower)and i instinctively banked hard right to turn away from him and egressed out of the thermal. Back on the ground i informed my teachers about the incident only to hear i could have just let him passed through first and join him from behind into the climbing circle but to my taste he came way to close to me and i rather chose not to colide. So in my book you did right :-)

I think you did the right thing . Interestingly as you tightened the right turn your vario indicated more lift ?

Traffic jams in the sky? Not for me, thank you. That looked more like a dogfight.

Very instructive what could have happened. I experienced it and survived. The thermal pole was very narrow and very strong (4-8m / s), and there were seven of us .... heavy traffic. The climbing angle was over 50 degrees and there was a change control of direction and depth. I flew with the Blanik L13 because I had a student in flight training. It went wrong when the thermal pole suddenly stopped like cut off. Congratulations on your impeccable reaction ...

When in a gaggle you should use the same turning radius as the others . Trying to shorten that radius will bring you in a collision risk with those in front of you .

The real problem is the cuffed jean shorts

Even kort door de bocht: Flying Simon signaleert gevaar en vliegt weg......prima! 👍🏼😉

I get very nervous when traffic is about close ...rather 1 or 2 at max. Dive???perhaps....you did react and were watchful for entering traffic well done.

I was a glider pilot from 17 till 25 when I went ATPL but, that was bloody close. I was first on the scene when two gliders collided in a thermal, both fatalities and it was not pretty. The guys joining showed a complete disregard to good airmanship. P.S. Keep your vids coming, they are great.

If the taxpayer owned that glider rather than you being financially liable for it, you'd probably have just pulled the eject lever.

fired the two aim 9 from outer pylons would have solved the problem, if the glider had a heat source! ;) As someone else also said you could have reduced your bank and get back into thermal / get behind the gliders to have them in view. In my opinion the problem have been that all gliders where on one quarter of the circle and not spread over the full circle. Surely the gliders entering thermal had a very bad timing and should have done a less steep turn and enter at another part of the circle a little below you all because of the height loss... especially in thermal cooperative behaviour is very important but it does not work if the other "players" do not care about that! Communication over the radio would also have made sense i don't know how it is handled where you fly...

I had a similar event many years ago, we were thermalling clockwise, but only one glider joining and he didn't see me at all, I only saw him at the last second as he approached from the blind side of me, same altitude. I couldn't turn tighter (joining glider would have hit me), couldn't pull up (another glider above), couldn't dive away to the left as I would have hit the joining glider, couldn't dive down to the right as there was a glider down there as well. What I did was flatten my turn and go a bit wider, slide by the tail of the joining glider, let the glider cut in front of me, and then pull back into the thermal and try to re-space myself. There was about 6' between my nose and the the joining glider's tail. Someone higher up radioed down "One-Mike, you totally cut off Hotel Tango, look behind you" and I saw One Mike's head swivel back and 'jerk' with the reaction. I figured 'no blood - no foul' and tried to keep a cool head about it. All in all I think you did right.

What you should have done is have a very frank discussion with the two pilots who forced their way into the thermal.

I think your reaction was adequate and timely. There was not much time to think, it was a safety call. Thanks for sharing this.

what are the right of way rules for entering and operating in a gaggle? I presume the number one rule is those with the vision must yield. so if your behind, below(in a low or mid wing), or outside the turning radius you must yield. And what about how you yield? Tightening the turn? exitiing the thermal? dive or climb?

I fly a Paraglider and I think the air law is the same, the glider on the right has priority especially if you are in a thermal. The glider joining the thermal should have done it from a safe distance. The glider joining is the one that should have done it in a safer manner. You didn't do wrong, you did all you could do.

I think you did not have many options and you did your best. I think safety should be the top priority of all pilots, competition comes at No.2. All the best for your future! Anil

You lived to land and post the video. You did the right thing

Looks to me like you made the only move you could to avoid the collision at the point where you reacted, but that was too late and left only a bad option. At the point where you paused the video would have a better time to see that the two new gliders were going to force in, and you still had time to roll out and maintain visual with everyone else. They were at fault but that conversation can be had when everyone is safe on the ground.

Thanks for posting this. When the glider in front of you reduced his bank and radius at about 2 minutes you continue turning tightly inside him. The normal reaction would have been to reduce bank also to avoid losing sight of him and avoid turning inside him. You say you could not have turned left because of the second duo. We can't see the position of the second duo but if you had reduced your bank you would at least have been in clear sight of one another. I think diving would have been worse than what you did because you would have been diving into air which you had not seen. Very glad it worked out ok

That is a very tricky one, and looked very risky once you were on the inside of them. Obviously the joining gliders joined very badly, which often happens early in a contest when pilots are not current and forget how to time these things well. They should be aiming to slot in on the other side of the thermal from you three who are already established. I'd say the only safe option for you would have been to identified the upcoming problem earlier, at about 1:50 or well before. Only possible if you happened to have seen them! By then you should be able to see they might be joining badly and it would be wise to go around the outside of them. This is only possible with experience of course. Basically assume other pilots haven't seen you, and will do the worst thing possible. Also I noticed between the 1:48-1:58 mark your nose is moving from the outside of the glider in front to inside i.e. your bank angle was too steep, although the 'pressure' from the other joining gliders might have contributed to this. Never cut inside gliders while thermalling, you quickly loose sight of each other and you run out of options as you found. Thanks for sharing.

Gliders are scary. I was WAY to close to one on a summer's day like this a few years ago. I was cruising along at 4500 feet when it appeared out of nowhere at my 10 o'clock about a 100 feet above me. He wasn't on frequency either.

I've never flown a glider (although it looks quite fun!) but it looks like you did the right thing. I fly a C172 out of a non-towered airport so we are forced to deconflict with other air traffic. Only thing you can really do is move out of the way and maintain the safety of your aircraft :) Love your videos by the way Simon

Eject, eject ! ;)

You hooked me with that intro.

You wanted our opinion, well, you did the RIGHTEST thing, well done, tightening the turn in the same direction and not over reacting, good nerves.

Who cares what we think. You survived death with your quick thinking. Pat your back. One can only imagine what that thrill was like.

If you can't see them, then you can't avoid them. It only takes two gliders to be in each others blind spot and it is game over. Competition vs flying safely is a no brainer.

Dive, when your high enough. Build up speed. Dive is quicker than waiting for a stall to happen. :)

You should have just flipped the red switch and radioed "Fox 1, Fox 1"

I was first on scene at a 2 glider impact. The guy who had just launched, took a third of the wing off my casualty who was in a thermal. He managed to control his aircraft, however on attempting to land, his intact wing clipped a fence post and his aircraft inverted. When I accessed him, he was still alive, he was airlifted out but sadly died in hospital from head trauma. The other guy lost his tail assembly and dived vertically into the ground, he died instantly. This occurred at Seighford glider field in Staffordshire, sad day, my casualty’s mother rang me on the day of the for three consecutive days, then stopped, never knew what happened to her.

Rubbin's racing!

In paragliding you just walk on their wing when this happens ;-)

what is that beeping noise constantly going? I thought people flew gliders for the peace and tranquility...

This is the issue with competition, it makes people do things they wouldn't normally do. Take extra risk to gain something that, in hindsight, isn't worth anything.

You landed and walked away = good move!

You can still talk about it. Right decision to leave.

I learned always that we should turn in a 180 degrees position of an other glider. If the hight is the same you have to wait to join the thermic and create hight distance. But I remember that we flew with 4 planes in thermic and suddenly 3 gliders came just crossing us to pick some extra hight in the leg they flew. They were busy with a competition and they scared the shit out of me. Scariest moment of my little flight career.

You should have done exactly what you did. "Didn't shit your pants, and didn't crash the plane". That's some good work.

There was little you could have done except turn very tightly, gain speed and don’t try and straighten up to exit the thermal too quickly because if you do, you’ll be likely to hit one of the slower gliders flying a normal thermaling course. The whole problem arose when you positioned yourself inside the gliders in front. I have been in this situation a number of times and the only way to really avoid it is to never fly inside another glider in a thermal when there are gaggles, especially in the pre start and there’s lots of lift about. You don’t need to fight for the best lift in such circumstance. Just accept the guy in front is not in the core and stay behind him so you can exit away from the thermal as soon as you see others joining ahead. I will only fly inside another glider that isn’t in the core if there are only two of us in the same thermal and at the same height. It’s always frustrating having to follow someone who isn’t in the best lift, but when all you are doing is waiting for the start, it’s the safest place to be.

too late to avoid going inside. only few seconds before you could/should have kept the 2 newcomers in sight by reducing bank angle to avoid this bad situation even if you are not guilty (do the same in a car, you know sometimes something will happen just based on people behaviour so you reduce speed or anticipate, yes anticipating should be the word). Also one point is about your shakiness with the stick, don't forget that with high incidence comes stall/spin so if you add stress on the controls it can go really bad. You will need experience to smoothen your movements when you are stressed but it is mandatory to make it the best of the glider even under pressure. So fly the more you can and also learn your glider at low speed and to the stall limits to know what is the best to do with the controls. One day it will be the little help which can make the difference...

My opinion to this is that you have to stay behind the other 2 gliders in front of you and NOT get to the inside. Glider Nr. 1 has to see you and has to give way to you, as he is the one entering the thermal. If you do the same in a 30+ glider gaggle, there is a high chance you will crash into someone as you have no escape route. One important thing is to stay calculabe for the other gliders.

I think you handled that just right. Main thing was that you were alert to what was developing.

..First, I'm really glad you shared this. I have been in this situation, and my reaction, as I recall was identical. And in the cockpit, I probably would have done the exact same thing. But reviewing it several times... would it have hurt to go outside? Once you saw the the #1 (most outside joinging glider) you could have levelled and let him go through you into the thermal, then gone way out wide left and "button-hooked" back in to join. This way you would have kept all gliders in view while they sorted out there "horgy borgy" mess!

You did all you could. I hope the two that joined right alongside other gliders in the gaggle got a good talkin' to!

That's a tricky one.. first of all: thanks for the upload! That way, all of us can learn from this.. Instinctively, I would have reduced my bank angle, to keep both gliders (your nr 2 and the one circling in front of you) within my sight. That way, I can also observe nr 1 and his reaction to this situation. If you're not feeling comfortable with the reaction of nr 1 (or if he's not reacting at all), you can still "escape" from the thermal in level flight, if necessary, in a dive. Banking to right gives you little to no room to avoid other gliders on the other side and/or below you. Plus, if you pull the aircraft into the turn, you possibly stall and find yourself in a spin. Your control inputs however were reasonable, given that you were surprised. You kept a good attitude and a fair amount of speed. What was your wing loading that day? All the best

It’s hard to say just looking at the video. Obviously what did worked. I’m glad no one got hurt. In all my over 50 years of flying, I’ve lost two friends in mid-air collisions. One was two airplanes. The other was a glider and an airplane. It looked like you were really alert in your situation. I guess that’s the best advice that I can offer - just stay alert, keep your eyes moving, and always leave yourself an out.

Pg pilot here with only limited sailplane experience: could you not have converted some of your speed into altitude, make a 270 over left and rejoin? Or were you flying next to your min sink speed there because it was a light day?

Simon! glider 2 is the intruder! However i am sure you in hindsight would have eased your turn and gone in after glider 2. On the other hand you flew as a old hardened competition pilot.

Survival is the exercise we are all in as soaring pilots. Thankfully, unless this was a french pilot and in France, there must have also been some positive re-action from the other guy. Competitions? Theres your problem, right there! Too many uninvited interruptions from 'winners'. How many times do you recon you unconsciously blundered? If you haven't you could be the next!

you did the right thing good heads up flying!

Joh Simon ik ben al lang blij dat het goed is gegaan en dat je gewoon veilig ben uitgestapt :)

Same happens in so many paragliding comps, there’s a gaggle of inexperienced pilots or coastal pilots who have little to no experience flying XC, so it’s always a mess when there’s over 50 gliders all grouped together, and always safety first, but when some muppet pushes their way into a thermal that’s already busy they can push five other gliders out and into a dangerous situation when they had no right of way to begin with! Competitions really bring out the stupid in people at times Well done in correcting yourself by simply being alert 👍🏻

looks like great fun, but it doesn't look safe at all !!!

I think you did the right thing. Turn in tight but that looked like it nearly put you in conflict with the lead glider. Maybe the only thing I’d have done different was to also pull up a bit to get height separation but not too much. Always tricky. You should try flying Paraglider’s , a gaggle is mental and makes me sweat

I wonder if there's any other noise the vario can make? Lol

Firstly rotten thermal joining. They should have known better. Your options. To the right - a no. Dive or climbing. Also no as you’re in a gaggle and have huge blind spots above and below. The only option was where you have a clear line of sight tightening the thermal. Its alao fairly rare someone will be on the inside of you in a thermal if you’re are committed to that thermal. You did the safest manoeuvre.

Gaggles can be really challenging cause u can lose sight of others. Just a few days ago I was circling with some other gliders when another gaggle arrived and I spotted one only when he was right in front of me on the same altitude - I way busy locating the others. In this case a short dive sorted it out but many time gliders approaching the thermal are not a war of the ones circling or just ignore. I am always surprised how sketchy it can become in a matter of seconds...

So, as far as I see it, you went to the inside. It's quite obvious, when your mind tells you, you need to react somehow, as you stick is bouncing around quite a bit and fast. I think that's something we all do more or less, but it's interesting to note. Usually I would never ever cut the circle on the inside, because you could have easily cut off the two guys in front of you and later the one in front of them. Your bank angle at one time was around 80°. Those two guys in front of you were pretty damn close at this point also. But, you had no chance to straighten up and make room by going to the outside, because those two discus came in from there. So that was your only move. Scary, dude!

Spoilers, speed brakes, sea anchor, Bricks, rocks, stones and finally pea gravel ... How about a good sling shot ??? Rubber bands any one just to wake up the joining rubes .... great proactive recovery on your part ... Thanks for not turning the air inside your airship blue with 4 letters if encouragement and support!!😁 That looked close and could have turned leathal in seconds ... great flying ... thanks for sharing ...

wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow

From an ACM point of view, i consider this very dangerous: First, you pulled into the turn and gave away kinetic energy. This can lead to a stall if you have to correct even harder. Second, you gave away your vision of the enemy fighters. Lose sight lose fight. So, in such a situation, i will always choose to give away my position to gain maneuvering speed and distance. The right move would have been a dive to make sure you have all the other planes in sight and queue up behind the last one. IMHO

From the camera perspective it looked far more dire. I was thinking roll the glider passed 90 degrees and pull the spoilers to find an exit.

in Germany we say, that you dutch guys drive always with caravan trailers like the biggest chaotics at our Autobahn xD Maybe this joke fits to this situation :D Joking aside, thats why its scarry for me to fly in gaggles :O

Scary times! I must say though, I didn’t see much of a lookout to the left before rolling into the thermal to the right.

If you yell at that guy you did everything right

Would it have helped if there had been more communication between you all on the radio?

What's the beeping?

Clearly the 2 joining gliders were in the wrong on this one. Did you consider pulling the spoilers or were there gliders below you as well?

Just jump out? Non pilot here

Too little, too late FLARM!

Went belly up to the glider on which you were essentially flying formation with. Should have done an overshoot maneuver flying below and to the outside of the traffic you were converging upon. Diving under offers more energy for maneuvering and the best visual of the most airspace where you know you have aircraft that you must keep an eye on. Belly up and converging on 2 or 3 planes at similar altitude is not a good plan. Betting your life you're turning tighter than they are. If this type of thing is typical, you all need to be formation qualified.

You did fine. Good work.. Gaggles are chaotic.

A descent away from all other traffic would’ve been most prudent IMHO

I've never flown sailplanes, and certainly never in competition, but to me every part of that looked like a terrifying shit show from start to finish.

I would report the incident to the comp director. This kind of behaviour kills pilots. I have been a comp safety officer and in this situation these pilots would have been counselled and put on a last warning before removal from the comp

Not sure how you could have handled it any differently, and I'm glad you're okay.

TCAS and proximity apps definitely needed for that many aircraft. Spacing requirements for gliders in the same thermals?