Beethoven wasn't out to channel the future, but he inadvertently did so. He was pushing the envelope, as he did throughout his entire career and yes, he ended up composing a small passage which happens to be the first piece of ragtime cum jazz ever composed. Regardless if one accepts it or not, it's what Betthoven did.
Well that's his own interpretation...it's not like the students aren't allowed to disagree. But in order to teach you cannot be objective about something as abstract like music. He tells them what he thinks, then shows them afterwards...and they are allowed to disagree. He's neither absolutely rigth or wrong. There's no absolute thruth. But he is a man with great knowledge on Beethoven...and he's an amazing pianist!
Those of us Americans, who have called it the "Boogie-Woogie Variations" ever since we ourselves played it, do so with tongue well-planted in cheek, so his objection, _prima facie_, is sustained. This music is radical. Those syncopations, hammered in the bass, at the 64th note, rock hard -- well past boogie-woogie. Late in his life, Beethoven explored other worlds. Amazingly, he somehow was able to report back to us in breathtaking style. Thank the gods...
Horns can't play a 64th note, or at that speed, and still have it sound like boogie woogie. Some instruments can go fast, but not many play jazz, too. It's the first boogie woogie: A jazz musician either heard it being played, or got the sheet music and was rather impressed with part iii and invented a really popular music form. Metal guitars can go that fast...
A few years back, I had the great experience of attending one of Sir Andras' recitals in San Francisco. That, believe me, was indeed a masterclass in performance practice, and it was a deeply satisfying traversal of time and space that left we the audience feeling we had taken part of a sumptuous, nourishing meal. Bravo, Sir Andras, and thank you! 😁🙏
The variations develop organically out of each other. If the third one resembles ragtime or jazz, it is because, as Schiff points out, we are looking back at Beethoven through all of the experiences we have had since then. But if someone wants to use this as an example of Beethoven being ahead of his time, that's OK too.
When a random person who has no idea this exists hears this for the first time, no one, NO ONE thinks it's Beethoven, they think it's from the early 20th century, not 80 years earlier.
@@rsr789 early 20th century had already had the romantics of chopin and liszt and rachmaninoff who sound nothing like this so I doubt people would mistake it for early 20th century. The only composers who likely influenced jazz are debussey and ravel et al, even jazz Pianists like Bill Evans said that debussey etc had the most influence on him as did other jazz Pianists
@@thesir27 No it doesn't. Musicology is based off of a psuedoscientific historical concept developed by Carl Savigny called "Historicity." If you remove that from the equation Beethoven has nothing to do with Jazz.
There's nothin wrong in boogie woogie itself. But the problem is that the association with boogie woogie dims this sonata's meaning: it's a goodbye and a thanksgiving to everything and to God. Indeed the difficulty of the second variation is to NOT play it like a boogie rythm. This sonata is a "gratia".
The issue is the speed of performance, especially not following the double beat metronome practise when playing it (and the other works, sonatas, symphonies etc.) Most pianists play the music of Beethoven too quick due to being unaware of the double beat use of the metronome.
@@johnb6723 The double beat theory is highly controversial at best and there is an overwhelming amount of counter-evidence such as composers themselves saying about how long performances of their pieces should last which coincide with our standard tempo markings.
lol@ all the commenters who are so offended their deep deep love of boogie boogie which they listen to 12 hours a day, isn't shared by a classical pianist. if you listened for the next minute or so you'll hear him explain that his main reason for avoiding thinking of other genres is because the piece has a deep spiritual feeling that needs to flow from beginning to end, and I totally totally agree with him (even if I do like jazz and boogie boogie lol)
+Brian Bernstein Of course, the video has "boogie woogie" in the title... so boogie woogie fans are more likely to click on it than if all it said was "Schiff" and "Beethoven".
@sunpowernatural I tend to agree. If some random composer of no merit would have made the 3rd variation, then sure you could write it off as a coincidence. However, we are writing about Beethoven, one of the if not THE (debatable, I know) most forward thinking composer who has ever lived, who pushed the envelope in so many directions (ex: Große Fuge, op. 133), that if he happened to be the first person to compose a ragtime / jazz - like musical variation, we shouldn't be surprised.
I arranged this whole last movement into a boogie---I will record it and post it on RU-vid. Andras Schiff cant face the fact that this piece DOES seem to sound like it is trying to swing. I don't trust a pianist who doesn't like boogie woogie either. LOL
@@josephhapp9 The point is that Beethoven seemed to almost channel the future in some parts)In an albeit clumsy way) in parts of the 2nd mvt of his last sonata. Of course "It is Beethoven." Jesus what an asinine thing to say. I think Schiff shows a stuffy, snobby side with the way he talks about this, and this is why a lot of people don't like classical music or classical musicians for that matter. They act like only the music they play is worthy, when in fact, if you think about it, they are nothing more than tribute artists, no different than what people do with rock bands today in tribute bands, slavishly reproducing what is in the score with no thoughts of their own.
@@mrbrianmccarthy This paragraph could’ve been avoided if you just said that elitism in music is bad. Plus, don’t you think that saying classical music is the same as rock is a little crazy, like at least a little?
@@mrbrianmccarthy What does that even mean? Sure, some pop songs are inspired by the classical genre, but in no way are they the same. That’s like if I said Chopin was the same as Beethoven because they both expressed elements of romanticism or if I said Liszt is the same as Alkan because they both share technical difficulties. To be honest, I’ve only seen the Beatles base their songs on classical pieces. Saying they’re on the same level is a huge disrespect to the composers and the classical genre as a whole.
Beethoven was so advanced in his musical thinking he revolutionized music twice: his heroic period (3nd & 5th Symphonies, Pathetique sonata, middle quartets) and his transcendental period (late piano sonatas and quartets, 9th Symphony, Missa Solemnis). I disagree with Schiff, I think Beethoven, now deaf, was uncovering musical possibilities so advanced of his musical age that he uncovered ragtime in op. 111.
my friend and I were discussing this piece tonight. I admit, I understand very little about the technicalities of music; however, I think Schiff's notion is problematic: that the 'jazz' we hear is an issue of development not jazz: Beethoven is sublime, not jazz which is '...'. He doesn't say. 'A love supreme' is sublime, developmental and jazz. Rather, Beethoven has encountered, in this piece, what is sublime about jazz in romantic music. No contradiction.
EVER SINCE I heard this masterclass and Schiff's denouncing the near-universal admiration for Beethoven's spark of #32's small peak in the future, I have REFUSED to listen to any more of Schiff. It's a level of snobbery that ASTOUNDED me and turned me off to his recreations from that moment on. I haven't lost anything of value, Schiff has. ♥
Well, you have to be realistic and put it in the historical context. Beethoven had no concept of boogie woogie and jazz, so you have to keep that in mind when approaching this piece. I think that's what he's getting at. Even if I disagree, that doesn't mean I shouldn't listen to him ever again.
@@pikachuchujelly7628MY POINT is that he outright refused, during this master class, to acknowledge how Beethoven COULD have possibly - even in the remotest sense to have created sound bites that would one day be developed into other styles. Of course I am NOT saying was a psychic composer, he merely possessed one of the greatest minds that music had seen since Bach. 😄
If beethoven was deaf at the time of composing this work, anything would have happend to sound jazzi. But it's pure genious nothing else. Bcz without having ears, he went deeper into his soul. 😍👌
First: Being famous and respected doesn't make everything one says apodictic and unconditionally true. Schiff may, being an experienced pianist and musician, have given the things he talks about more thought than someone else might have, but that doesn't mean that everyone has to blindly believe what he says without reflecting on it. Second: What you are talking about are not opinions, but facts. (continued...)
Walvirck-- My own 2 cents, FWIW: I'm a jazz pianist who's also revered and worked up this Beethoven, and I completely agree with Schiff on the "boogie-woogie" nature of the third variation. I've always thought that its similarity to jazz is a misleading coincidence, and obscures the true nature of the variation, which is pure frantic godlike ecstasy. And I say this not because I reject jazz in any way! So this might not be evidence of Schiff disrespecting the wonderful art-form of jazz.
BEETHOVEN IN A WORLD OF HIS OWN We all know that by the time this Sonata was written, Beethoven was pretty much into his own world. He was almost completely deaf and had miserable health problems. Schiff has a right to express his opinion of course and we have a right to listen or to not..or to pay or not. In any case Schiff plays this beautifully so he has a right to his opinion. In a very sad sense Beethoven's suffering was also our reward. sanjosemike
I disagree with you, i was very fortunate to have study with the great Arrau, and he was a fantastic unparalleled teacher, very practical, he used to say, this is WORKSHOP, and would explain from the technical point of view of how to do something, to the sublime, such as a story, or anecdote or some personal opinion of the piece; and as he was a walking encyclopedia about everything, he was a very intellignet and wise man, one always came out from a lesson uplifted and motivated to improve !!!!
right or wrong about schiff's distaste for jazz, there are plenty of professional classical musicians who will come home from their concerts (no names will be provided, but they are friends of mine in the new york phil and chicago symphony) who absolutely love jazz as much as classical and use it to assist their technique/musicality in their classical playing(and vice versa.) Some have been on jazz albums. Even if schiff does not like jazz, he's free to choose what styles he likes, like anyone.
I realised this isn't a recital but a masterclass. I wasn't criticizing the fact THAT he is talking, I was merely pointing out that all he does is anticipating/reiterating the music verbally before/after he plays it. (continued...)
6 лет назад
He says he doesn't like the boogie-woogie, but look at the way he swings while he plays it.
We,humans, are streams of inherited conciousness that has been trying to imitate what came before us without knowingly that what we tried to imitate is actually just an another mere imitation that tried to do the same which came before it too. In this sense, human ignorance of historical knowledge could be counted as blessing in disguise, that it helped create variation of music that came before in context of modern interpretation.
What a lovely comment. Quite agree with you and suggest that you get the DVD. Almost 3 hours of this remarkable and inspiring analysis of all three of the late sonatas.
Only when occasion calls for it does Schnabel distort the actual pulse. most of the time he alters values which occur between the main pulse. This is also mostly what Schiff does, and you are correct in saying that there are sometimes when it should not be done. However, if you can actually tell me the measure or time in the video when you think schiff violates one of these rules, let me know. I will tell you what I think.
That's because you're ears are attuned to the vulgar and you cannot hear the deeper meaning in this music. Mr. Schiff is absolutely correct. I'm sorry to sound harsh but you should open your mind and ears to the more sophisticated and deep world of music that is Beethoven... in fact, this is music on the edge. It's far more groundbreaking and expressive than "boogie".
I am surprised that Andras did not mention it,but if you want to hear real boogie woogie go to Andras playing the third;the third movement of the Waldstein Sonata,where one genius.is playing the music of a greater genius.
I just love the frenetic ecstasy of 2:33 onwards! Beethoven had the greatest musical imagination of them all, even if I still think Mozart was supreme.
The problem is it's offensive to say that the sonata sounds like jazz. It's the opposite. One genre of jazz sounds a little like a part of this masterwork. It's not elitist to acknowledge that Beethoven is the greatest human musical genius. He just is and this is one of his cornerstone works. That one genre of jazz sounds somewhat like a passage in the sonata isn't saying much. It isn't even convergent evolution, since there is no similarity of environment or niche.
Variation 3 [or is it really variation 2, with his first selection being the original theme?; I don't recall the sonata well enough to say] does not swing as Schiff plays it, but it could be made to swing. Would that be a good way to play it or a bad way? I love jazz but "classical" even more, so it's hard to say.
Also, I think you're confusing the "pulse" with beats. They are not one in the same. Schiff is actually not distorting the overall pulse much at all, but there are slight distortions in the subdivision of beats in between when the main pulse falls. In fact, since you think you are so knowledgeable about this music.. can you tell me on which beats the pulse falls? this will at least be a start.
Then explain his use of the word "iambic" to describe the first variation and his comparison of the second variation with "alle Menschen werden Brüder" from the 9th symphony. I've already made my point regarding the word "iambic", and as far as I know, there isn't any point in the 9th symphony where the phrase "alle Menschen werden Brüder" occurs in the rhythm that Andras Schiff has sung it.
@Haeronthegreat I think he often gives his own personal view of the music, which is just what he sees in it, and not necessarily a deeper layer of meaning put there by the composer itself. It is more like imagery that can be useful as guide for a particular form of interpretation.
Btw, I'm not even sure Mr. Schiff knows what he's talking about when he describes the first variation as "iambic" (apart from pronouncing it wrong - or have I misunderstood him? if so, please correct me), because a iamb is a short syllable followed by a long syllable, i.e. exactly the opposite of the rhythm in the first variation, which would be a trochee (long-short). I guess Schiff wanted to impress the audience by using technical terms. Problem is, he didn't seem to know what they mean.
Ludwig definitely swung in this piece,not so hard to believe;Irish Traditional music swings and did in Beethoven's day,I'm sure,and he may have heard it.Anyway,if he didn't,he was more than capable of introducing that triplet bounce all on his own,with such an unsurpassed musical intelligence.
Regarding Beethoven's 9th, I interpret Schiff as speaking about an emotional, stylistic, or even philosophical quality in the music. Regarding the word "iambic," you are entirely correct, but come across as a jerk because of how you make your point. Schiff made a mistake. Oops. Doesn't invalidate his point or make him a shallow/stupid/etc. human being.
There is "boogie-Woogie" and also ragtime! Do not be surpised Mr. Schiff! All came from dances and popular rhythms: 2/4 or 4/4. They are very late dances but, i repeat, there are some "archetypal", universal, forms for rhythm. About "spiritual" feelings: Do not mistificate mr. Schiff. Pierluigi da Palestrina in his well known sacred music put popular dances as "gagliarde"...Buxthehude made the same the same with "Gigas" and many others dances...
(...continued) That the phrase "alle Menschen werden Brüder" NEVER occurs in the 9th symphony in the particular rhythm that Andras Schiff has sung it in is an indisputable fact, making Schiff's comparison plainly senseless, because it is simply NOT like "alle Menschen werden Brüder" in the 9th symphony (again, correct me if I'm wrong). And the meaning of the word "iambic" isn't a matter of opinion either. And it's precisely these things that I'm criticizing, (continued...)
It could very well be the source of boogie woogie, Song Zero. Someone playing classical piano while learning jazz played it, and created boogie woogie out of it. I, myself, feel that Beethoven helped create heavy metal, too. It was a visit from The Doctor that caused no more of part iii to be written. By accident, The Doctor landed near Beethoven. The TARDIS makes noise that can be heard telepathically, and he slipped into the TARDIS. Next stop, relaxing in a jazz club. On the way, The Doctor discovers his stowaway, but they had already landed on Earth and a recharge was required. Beethoven was ordered to stay, but the TARDIS gave him ears for a short time, and he heard boogie woogie & elaborated on it, "This is how it should sound." The Doctor then returns to Beethoven's time and tells him not to write more because it hasn't been invented yet. But that one passage made it to sheet music first, and we have Song Zero. Cheers to Beethoven for slipping that in for us!
I agree with you that information shouldn't be spoonfed interpration but to that I remeber receiving a lot of information from teachers about Beethoven and some stuff sticks but most don't but the benefit is it started me thinking or ideas and many times i could apply these to other pieces...I think it depends on the maturity of student to decide if he will be a carbon copy of his teacher or an individual because i know for fact that i dont play like my teachers and i wasnt harmed by his advice
the rhythm in the passage bears only a small resemblance to boogie. I must stress that Beethoven never wrote a boogie woogie, though, although scores of under-educated music lovers will think he did. In a boogie, the rhythm is different, and much more metronomic (perfectly steady pulse). The reason why Schiff does not play like that is because the music demands a more careful treatment of the beats and in fact is much more sophisticated, and further-reaching in its vision, than a boogie.
Of course it's tempting to think of the 'jazz-like' bit as some kind of ingenius visionary premonition on Beethoven's part. I have no problem with that but I do think it's going a little overboard. But still, what's wrong with boogie-woogie?
And now, come to think of it, what does the 2nd variation have in common with "alle Menschen werden Brüder" from the 9th symphony??? I'm now seriously wondering if he has any idea of what he's talking about.
"that doesn't mean that everyone has to blindly believe what he says without reflecting on it." : I agree completely. "What you are talking about are not opinions, but facts." : Nope. I'm saying that if a particular variation reminds Andras Schiff of Beethoven's 9th, then, given his status (and role. He's teaching a Master Class), he has every right to make that connection without backing it up, and it may serve as insight to others, or it may not.
Eduardo Poblete de Chile, como Beethoven nos sorprende y nos maravilla con su creación, se adelantó a su época, con su creación de la Arietta, dió un paso revolucionario, sin lugar a dudas es Boogie Boogie, o si se quiere es jazz... Lo
@beet31425 hmm obviously beethoven did not have some great vission of the future and wrote what sounds like a foreshadow of jazz. however, wasn't jazz just a natural expression that americans had back before it was notated. Didn't jazz come from the soul? i mean sure the swung eights and rythem is a distict notifier of jazz, but what beethoven wrote was wat he felt and like shiff says, "we jsut hear the human spirit" buut jsut my opinion.
Both Beethoven and Boogie can be played well or badly, depending on the technique and self-awareness of personal expression. Improvising beyond cliché licks to produce a melodious solo that is both memorable and of perfect proportion - it's a skill that was valued even in Bach's day. Imagine if I never liked Beethoven because Schiff's interpretation didn't possess the emotion I expected...
Opus 111 is indeed life affirming. The fact that Schiff doesn't like boogie woogie bothers me not a bit. As humans we all have to tap our feet and keep warm from time to time. A bacon sandwich can be just as pleasing a 3 star Michelin meal.
(...continued) I've heard the audio with the Moonlight sonata and he says some interesting things there, but not here. I don't need Mr. Schiff to tell me how music should affect me or how the contrast between the sections in the 4th variation is like darkness and light. If I want to know how the music sounds, I listen to it itself, rather that to Mr. Schiff talking about it.
I think the third variation there needed to have been played with a bit more "boogie-woogie"! (I am joking - I instantly thought of rag-time/boogie-woogie the first time I heard this variation in piano sonata no. 32, but it is mistaken to impose a later musical category onto Beethoven, out of its own time.)
Good! The foundation of the boogie-woogie is in the bottle of water under the piano. Considering music is not words, the rest is much noise about nothing.
Nyílt levél Schiff András művész úrnak. Művész Úr! A The Washington Post-ban megjelent olvasói levelében súlyos kijelentéseket tesz Magyarországról, "a toleranciaszint szélsőségesen alacsony. Rasszizmus, a romák hátrányos megkülönböztetése, antiszemitizmus és reakciós nacionalizmus" kísért. Nem tudom, hogy Ön milyen tapasztalatokkal rendelkezik a mai magyar
Maybe you can enlighten me on exactly how Mr. Schiff's rhythm is atrocious, because to me, he seems to have an extraordinary sense of control over the pulse. If you are merely using a metronome to follow the rhythm and think it's bad because he doesn't line up perfectly... then you know nothing about rhythm! A big part of music is understanding how to control how the listener perceives the pulse, which often involves careful manipulation of the "in-between" beats.
@ Walvirck On one side you´re right. BUT meeting jazz musicians you will find similar ignorance against classical musicians. And in the end - to be very honest - of course there is a big difference in content between classical and jazz music.
I like boogie-woogie a lot, but I agree with his statement. I think that variation has a very distinctive joyful character within Beethoven's expressivity, you just shouldn't add a jazzy feel to it, it's so far from a correct interpretation.
Unfortunately this is just the pianistic tradition getting Beethoven's tempo markings wrong. The entire movement should have the same pulse (same duration for each beat). The pianistic tradition plays the previous variation too fast and this one far too fast. It should actually be a slow, lamenting aria in a dotted pattern, not a boogie-woogie.
Schiff would do well to listen to boogie woogie and jazz since he seems to have difficulty playing with a good sense of time. I can’t imagine Beethoven would write such a rhythmic piece but intend for it to be played with such fluctuation of tempo.
(...continued) so I'm merely reflecting on the things he says and pointing out that they don't make sense to me. And that people give me the thumbs down, even on the comments that contain purely objective reasoning, is a sign that they themselves don't understand these things but are too stupid to say anything, because, surely, what the great Schiff says must be correct, and to question it can only be foolishness to the point of arrogance? Or why else can no one explain to me where I am wrong?
Oh, gawd, Merdith Wilson stole it for musical Molly Brown, put words "i'll never stop loving you" to the tune. Look it up scholastic if you have doubt.
Kind of confused by that statement...music teaching and playing music go hand in hand...when we perform we teach the audience about what the composer had in mind, how we feel about the music, why not put how we feel about it to words? Creating an interpretation is an important part of the music making process. Afterall its up to the performer to used it or create his own interpretation or use the teachers. I don't see how his playing with suffer from listening to someone who has so much knowleg
I would challenge you to listen to any great recordings of Beethoven, particularly Schnabel. Notice how in many instances, certain beats are intentionally distorted, or certain passages will sound rushed. This "atrocious" rhythm is what makes the playing great! It's only the worst, most ignorant amateurs that think that beats in Beethoven's music must keep step with a metronome to be "in rhythm". (although this may be a good starting point while learning the notes).
I just wonder why he feels that he has to verbally describe the music instead of just playing it for the audience to enjoy/understand (I mean it really isn't anything more than describing, it's not analyzing or explaining, just describing it 1:1). Is it because he thinks it makes him appear more intelligent and understanding of the music, or is it because his playing alone isn't interesting/good enough to transport the music to the audience? Probably both.
Lo and behold, everybody seems to give me the Thumbs Down, but no one can correct me objectively in my equally objective arguments and explain to me where I am wrong... So much for "criticize without giving the subjects some deeper thoughts"...
Everyone judges what they hear or read; you are in fact judging Mr. Schiff to be incorrect by your condtradictory statement! Secondly, Beethoven's music has a grandiosity and depth of meaning which probably you or I cannot fully fathom (yet). Schiff himself even said he only began understanding them later in life, in his 50's. If you indeed understand them "exceedingly well" then you would command $60 a ticket. however, your statement that you hear a "boogie" belies a shallow thought process.
