Setting a Standard - Are we getting value for OO Steam? 

Thanks Rob. Appreciate your thoughts on this mate, certainly some food for thought, as poorly worded as I might have made it :P

Hello Michael, my thoughts exactly on this, totally agree with you. A lot of people seem to think it unnecessary given British lamps, but I think with the option to interchange them it should be a staple. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Keep well. Hylt

Totally here you on that mate, I think most would agree with you on that point. I would expect exactly the same frankly! Cheers, Hylt

@@Proper_Chuffed great video btw. Very informative.

Dapol, Accurascale, Rapido have been my primary choice based on features with heljan on budget.

Hornby and Banchman are either too expensive or just can't find them in stock.

@@zepheris_ I think Hornby are rip off merchants. Not had a Dapol yet. Accurascale are great value. I’m actually a fan of Bachmann too, but you’re right, a lot of their stuff is hard to get.

Hello Stephen, thanks so much for watching, yes perhaps a little out my usual wheelhouse of content but thought I would give it a go. Agreed, I think the differences between RR and RR+ really do need to be a little more discernable too. Some good builds you've added here, I definitely missed an opportunity on the all wheel pick ups, although in many regards, that should be a standard across the board no? Thank you for sharing your thoughts, and as always, watching. Keep well sir. Hylt

I for one like it, but I do think a lot more R&D needs to go into it. If it's causing problems now, it needs to be pulled and worked on before it continues into production. Thanks for sharing your thoughts here Joseph. Cheers, Hylt

Thank you Rinke. Yes I do believe there should be a more standardised approach personally, it makes sense that we should get better tech for what we pay honestly.

Thanks James! Appreciate your thoughts here bro, certainly will be keeping an eye out in the coming years as to where these standards shift. By no means is this the gold standard, I would just like a bit more consistency. I may think of doing that, not sure yet. But a good idea. Thanks bro, Hylt

You make a really good point here, in no way should the cost of someone own humanity come for the sake of someone else's hobby. It's kind of scary if you really start pulling back the layers.

@@Proper_Chuffed from a business stand point as well it would be suicidal of hornby particularly to not invest into making sure the factories they use are above board across the multiple high profile brands they own. They're not huge in the grand scheme of companies but they're big enough and in the public eye enough to be on the radar of people that would investigate these things and any scandal would be very bad news. The newer manufacturers are tiny, very specific to model railways, unlikely to draw much attention. Much less to lose. And suprisingly reluctant to talk about what steps if any they take in this regard all while offering significantly cheaper products. Call me silly but that alone should raise some red flags in terms of the supply chain. This is a very opaque industry and that should probably change(within reason) so we can be a bit more sure that our little toys aren't causing harm.

Jeez, most model train factories treat their workers fine...

@@azuma892 and in your statement lies the crux of the issue, "most" i.e. not all 🤣way to acknowledge the very problem I speak of while taking a dismissive tone towards it. If that just bypasses and pardons off the issue then hey, most hornby models are fine. Problems all solved heh. 😌

Hey Tony, thanks for that, yeah actually I was watching Craig over at @ironhorserailways and he made a great vid about just that thing. It makes no sense to release detail parts that cannot stand up to running conditions. My Bachmann 37 and 47 are prime examples of this and it's infuriating. Cheers and thanks for dropping by as always. Hylt

Thank you ☺️ Hylt

A very good point here Jeffrey, something I didnt really account for in this video. I would hope we're at a point where premium models wont be disintegrating... ever! 🥲

Ahh class sign off there Dave! Haha I certainly try, though not sure I always succeed. There seems to be a massive disparity in that range too, which makes no sense, surely we should be looking at some kind of consistency? Personally railroad is not my speed, and as you say, it can be a total miss. But I do think those that opt for that offering should at least be serviced by some decent running locos? Thanks man, always appreciate you watching.

Agreed.

I completely agree with you on that, I certainly don’t want to take away from the work involved, I think more than anything the disparity and differences in different levels is more of the highlight here 😊 but you make some brilliant points.

I agree, and to be honest anyone who owns an Accurascale model and looks at the astonishing number of parts make that model, I am amazed they sell them at their price points, which makes me wonder why for example Bachmann charge what they do for a comparable model, and Hornby for the same price but a much lesser spec model, and I can only wonder what the support costs are to maintain a large back catalogue of active models and does this effect the likes of Bachmann and Hornby, otherwise their prices are hard to fathom

I think that's a good point, my point around detailing is that if you offer it, it should be able to run with it fitted. The care required is then totally up to the owner. But I get what you are saying.

Hello Rusell, thank you for sharing mate, can't speak to that myself but I can imagine the exorbitant prices are totally off putting for most people these days.

Good point there Clive, I didnt want to make it too long, but that's something I didn't think of. Thanks for sharing that build. Cheers, Hylt

That’s a fair point Mark, I mean why not? Surely the process of doing so wouldn’t be a bank breaking exercise? Thank you for watching, I truly appreciate it and for sharing your thoughts

All wheel I would say. Everything should be covered at that price point.

Very good point. I perhaps should have renamed that category to 'High-End Motor' to cover the offering.

Hi William, thanks for watching, are you referring to different markets in HO?

Yes. I’ve seen many comments from European modellers that there models are better than UK OO.

@@williamvanalen9414 I would agree with that overall. I’m fairly well exposed to Marklin etc and would say quality overall is vastly superior

Hey, guess what?...you too are going to be old one day and no doubt moaning about how things aint what they used to be!!

Thanks for that mate, I appreciate it, I know it might not be a water tight solution but I am doing my best to sort of rationalise it all. I know there are a myriad of factors that probably throw a wrench in the formula, but as a baseline, even just for myself, I think it kind of makes sense. Cheers for watching. Hylt

@@crewelocoman5b161 note the "often". Not all old men do. Generally the more self aware ones don't. I plan on following my Grandad's example - recognising progress and optimistic until his dying day.

@@eurovnik I did note the "often" that's why I commented.

Completely agree with your Jeffrey, it's definitely something that is plaguing some of the main companies. We really need more of a standard, with quality, and quality control. Cheers, Hylt

@@Proper_Chuffed Fundamentally, I am more interested in how well a model runs than what its technical specification is. I recall Sam's Trains having problems with engines such as the new Hornby 2-10-0 not having enough torque to negotiate 2nd radius curves. Not all are like it though, as confirmed by That Model Railway Guy. Enough name dropping though!

It’s rather worrying to consider that in the bigger picture, but certainly something that needs light shined on it 😓

Fair point there, I should have perhaps made things a little more broad in that regard, perhaps 'high-end motor' would be a better name for it.

Hey man, thanks for dropping in and watching. I actually agree with you on this for the most part. The reason I would classify them as essential in the premium offering is that they’ve become something of a standard. While I personally don’t see any point in them, I can understand folks who would put that as their standard. Does that make sense? 😊 cheers, Hylt

Hey Piers, thanks for that, glad you agree. It's not a set in stone thing, but if it helps in some way, great! :) Hylt

I feel like that should be the absolute baseline. Completely agree with you.

Hey mate, Thanks for swinging by again, appreciate it and your insights on this. Couldn't agree with you more on value for money. I wish I had that kind of offering locally, but agree with you on your reasoning. Sprung buffers are frankly something I dont care too much for, firebox flicker effects, and die-cast boilers and running plates really add to the realism and quality of a model. I completely agree about the importance of avoiding models that feel cheap and plasticky. It’s much more satisfying to handle a model that feels solid and well-made.

Yes indeed. I've remembered my LMS Turbomotive model and how, due to the die-cast boiler, she's of a much higher quality than the Thompson Pacific. Three other Hornby models I've got (namely the LSWR '700', LNER 'B12' and 'J15' classes) also have die-cast boilers. I'd like to see that feature more often on newer releases.

Hey there, thanks for sharing your thoughts on this, totally hear you on what you're saying. In some cases, production almost seems way too delayed too, on the flip side. Agreed though, get the fundamentals down more than anything else. Cheers, Hylt

Thanks for clarifying Adi. Agree with you on this mate.

Hello Lars! I actually might change my opinion there on that, perhaps railroad pricing really should have lighting, it makes sense what you see. A lot more appealing to little ones. I completely agree on the sprung buffers too, absolute nonsense and I've never seen the point! Thanks for sharing your thoughts here on this, it means a lot to me sir! Cheers, Hylt

There were seams on steam locomotive boilers running from the chimney to the firebox and sometimes between the smokebox and boiler.

That is the absolute minimum, totally agree, that price point demands a level of quality and precision that matches it.

@@crewelocoman5b161 not like the seams on the models there isn't otherwise those seams n gaps will be upto 6-7 inches tall or wide even more on some of the poorer models

@@sammy_dog Does the width of the track ever bother you?

@@crewelocoman5b161 I bet you would be happy paying over 200k for a Rolls Royce with a engine that doesn't work as well as it should What about 6-7 inch gaps in the doors boot n hood seams as well as 6-7 inch weld seams If not then stfu n gtf off the forum

Oh man thats a huge shift, are you ever going to come back Kenneth? Cheers, Hylt

Down to price?

Correct. Unlike diesels steam locomotives never had lit lamps; only at night were they lit. After WW 2 electric lighting was tried out on some new locos (LNE, LMS, and SR) but abandoned as they couldn't be seen in daylight. The BR Standards were never fitted with them. BTW, Hornby used to produce a 'Super Detail Pack' which included some decent lamps and discs. Apart from that Springside make a very good range of lamps, BR, LMS, LNER, and SR (yes they were all different!) with jewelled cut glass in them which does give a bit of reflection and red tail lamps also with cut glass. Steam models with electric lights look ridiculous.

I appreciate that. This is exactly the kind of discussion I want to have :) I would say with a more well engineered tooling for this lamp switching, it should indeed be a standard though. I am basing this purely on what I see other markets doing. We should have that option, if we cant to run without lamps, great, but that option should be there. Hylt

The new Black 5 has one, which is good to see, we need more of this frankly. Cheers, Hylt

@@Proper_Chuffed Err no! Steam locomotives did not have "lights", they had lamps for train coding purposes which were lit only for night time operation. After WW 2 some new LNE, LMS and SR steam locos were fitted with electric lighting but were soon abandoned as they couldn't be seen during daylight hours. The BR Standards were never fitted with electric lights. On model steam locos they look ridiculous, diesels etc, absolutely fine. Check out archive sources, there's plenty of it.

@@crewelocoman5b161 my mistake on the wording there. I hear what you’re saying, you certainly know a great deal about this so I would defer to you. My point is the optional extra to fit lit lamps really should be more commonplace, would you agree with that? 😊

@@Proper_Chuffed All I'd say is that the clamour for more and more detail is fine for those that want it, presumably because it fulfills a notion of accuracy/realism but in this case it simply doesn't. Steam locomotives never ran with "lights" except at night. Springside produce a range of scale loco and tail lamps (LNER, LMS, GWR, SR, BR) with jewelled cut glass reflectors which are much more accurate than those that come installed on the latest models.

No don’t apologize Julian, I’m grateful, this is exactly what I was hoping for, I feel I have a lot still to learn and this is a fantastic example of what I’m trying to achieve 😊 I am super glad you spoke up about it. I had to pick my words fairly carefully here and still frankly, don’t know enough as much as other folks do when it comes to costing or stuff like sound, but certainly would think lights a cheap option? 🤷‍♂️ thanks for sharing mate. Some great points here. Hylt

Thats about what you'd expect with any business. Plus saying they sell it on for 3 times the price is maybe a bit disingenuous, the RRP may be £96 on something they get for £32 but the wholesale price they charge to retailers is somewhere between the two and even with direct sales they're still covering the costs of overheads on offering direct sales to begin with. The streets of Margate are not paved with gold and aren't likely to be any time soon on the back of this industry 😅

That's kinda scary to be honest. Good question, assuming then they're being produced for closer to the £15-25 mark then?

@@Proper_Chuffed yeah but think of it like a cafe, they pay say $5 for a bag of coffee, they sell a cup of coffee for $5. If that bag makes 100 cups they've got $500. Out of that $500 they have to pay rent in most cases or a mortgage, power, put some aside for equipment needs, wages... then what's left is profit. From personal experience in this and other lines of work the profit is not huge and I think we are really not understanding that as a hobby. Even if it costs £300 the profit margin isn't all that per loco sold compared to the costs of doing business especially employing a design team in the UK, running offices in the UK which has been subject to the self same energy price hikes and so on that constitute the cost of living crisis. Likewise there's been no real let up in wages in china going up(about doubled on average over the last 10 years) If we look at it rationally these prices are really not that much of a suprise. If we look using publically available evidence we can also see some hints of where others are making savings to enable a lower price. Accurscale last I looked had no offices to heat, no rent to pay for the business beyond paying a provider of a mail box in Covent garden in london to register the company at and they all seem to work from home basically. They have said through one of the staff on RMweb that they see themselves as more operating like a tech company than a normal model manufacturer and I can see what they're saying they seem to subcontract a lot of functions others do in house which means cheaper models but also means less steady jobs going as a result of their activities and more gig economy shenanigans, there's no free lunches and not to be all woke or anything but we bemoan hornby moving manufacturing out the UK but then lapped up the cheap models we got as a result... what I've explained above is just the next logical step but here we are again lapping it up until we see the hubris in 20 years when there's even less steady jobs in the industry. Again, probably woke nonsense but ah well 🤣

Thank you so much, it's a little out of my wheelhouse but something different and hope it maybe helps you as much as it does me on a personal level when trying to value something correctly when making a purchase. Thanks for watching!

Hey Chris, Good thinking there on the additional categories. I agree with the additional line of 'Standard' for the most part, my reasoning behind not including the second hand/cheap market was mostly because its more targeted at the manufacturers and their standards, if that makes sense? Thanks for sharing your thoughts here bro, appreciate it! Hylt