Your wrong and miss leading people. Damascus patterns are bought out by etching , either ferric chloride dipping or sand blasting. A knife can either be dipped up to the bolster or the bolster not blasted at all but in this case and the case of most even Japanese manufactured knives the blade is welded to the bolster. Integral bolster knives are very expensive and usually made by custom knife makers. Damascus is not even very expensive for Chinese factories to make any more but often the heat treat has poor quality control. You can also take the Damascus pattern off any real Damascus knife with enough sanding. Most likely it’s just a very poor heat treat that means this knife can’t be sharpened. I’m not saying this knife is definitely real Damascus but your premise for believing it to be fake is totally wrong.
When you mention the katana sword, everyone immediately thinks of a weapon made from carefully selected steel, forged by a skilled craftsman with solid expertise. Therefore, the name Katana, aside from the recognizable shape, carries a spirit that everyone acknowledges as a symbol of high-quality craftsmanship. Today, it is mass-produced under the appearance of a katana sword, but in terms of quality, it does not resemble the essence of a true katana. The same goes for Damascus steel. The techniques of forging, heat treatment, and the materials are what made its name. If those standards are not met, then no matter how similar the pattern or shape may be, it only lives up to the name, not the essence
My friend and I were at a gun and knife show a few years ago. About an hour into it, he came running up to me and says,”Dude, check out this beautiful Damascus blade Bowie knife”. I took one look at it and knew it was not Damascus steel. He only paid $25 for it but it was really junk. Life lesson learned.
Companies making and selling products using these false advertising practices really need to be held accountable. If me or you did that kind of stuff we would be out of business never to return. I guess the only thing we can do is continue to call them out. But then they shut down and open under a new name. Need to put an end to faceless Companies selling crap🙁
What's worse is when fake experts on youtube call out a company, but then don't know what they're talking about. He's completely wrong about the pattern stopping meaning it's not Damascus. It's most likely a welded tang. Or they just didn't dip the blade any further in the acid, which you have to do to bring out the Damascus pattern in folded mono-steel.
Great video. Just an FYI the fact the damascus pattern does not continue on the bolster is not (by itself) an indicator that the damascus is fake. Sometimes the bolster or spine of the knife is polished which removes the visible pattern.
@@SimplelittlelifeI've bought one from this brand before with the "VG10" and I had no issue getting an edge, it just took longer to get a new edge to begin with at a lower grit and it took a little longer to get rid of the burr. But once the burr is gone it is sharp. I don't know why you think a burr staying means the steal is certainly not hard enough, it just means you didn't use the strop enough on it.
It is common with many manufactures to stamp the blades and make the tang separate and then weld them. This allows more blades per sheet and more uniformity of handles. You can also switch tang designs for other handles such as different end caps or handle shapes for manufacturing. What can be said is that they are not a full forge artisan build.
What you said about no pattern on handle being fake makes sense but it doesn't apply to many Chinese manufactures. I own Xinzuo damascus knifes that do not have pattern on the handle yet I know for sure its real because I thinned it down and after grinding and polishing the pattern is still there. If you want to test for damascus thats what you need to do, grind and polish the pattern. As for the sharpening issue, maybe there is a problem with them, bad heat treatment really can affect performance but you finished sharpening with several passes edge trailing. That usually leaves a massive burr. Even with guided systems you need better deburring method. Try alternating passes with low pressure and edge leading, that's the best method I have found so far.
I believe those bolsters are soldered on. I sanded down and acid etched mine in ferric. It etched both the damascus and revealed the solder/weld on bolster. Can't speak to your friend's knive's metal or HT though. It may be just cheap Damascus/laminate or the HT was messed up (heated) during final grind or polish. Sand and acid etch a spot to see if its real...
Just what I wanted to say. They TIG weld those bolsters. Sometimes I forge weld the entire tang to the steel or iron/steel laminate blade when making some medieval replicas as it was quite common to not waste precious high quality steel. And here's the same reason - they do not waste laminate for bolsters, tangs etc. so they just weld it together. It is damascus, it is VG10 but it's just poorly made. That's it.
Are you absolutely sure the bolsters are integral ? I suspect soldered in. The bolsters have a very distinct yellow tone like you would see in nickle-silver. I'd try to etch the secondary bevel or spine and see if you have any layers. You can easily polish or resharpen those before you give them back, with no real damage.
Love the video Jeremy! Those are no doubt trash knives! However it's commonplace for Japanese "integrals" to have their bolsters welded or brazed on. Even with actual damascus ones. I've seen it on companies like shun and Miyabi. So those might be actual patterned steel but definitely made from garbage
True. And it could just be possible the bolster of the blade was not etched so why there wouldn't be a pattern. I'm not claiming that's the case here obviously these are fraudulent garbage but just saying a pattern would only really show where the blade was dipped.
The fact the finger guard have no danascus pattern as well as the top part does not proves its not layered steel damascus. You can sand it off and you wont see patterns on any real dakascus knife, its because they need to go to the acid for petterns to br clearly visible. But then bring danascus does not mean its a good knife.
So I bought a buck knife that was a hc440 steel. I started making knives about 6 years ago. I have made stainless, and carbon damascus. I decided to replace the blade in my with this cpm10v. It went great, bit the blade geometry was key to a sharp knife. It is still a monster to sharpen. My brother has those same knives. I just re-etched them for him because I changed his edge geometry. Those blades hold an edge like the cpm10v that is in my knife. Maybe it was the guy trying to sharpen the knives. I can tell you, after I etched in ferric chloride the pattern came back. You owe this company an apology.
Hi Alex.. Do you want quality Damascus steel with different patterns with very ecomical prices.. I will give you grantee about Matrial and quality.. Later i give you detail if you want
Great video Jeremy. I make real Damascus and, yes, it holds a razor edge. This is a problem that scammers create. The sad thing is, the general public thinks that they are getting a good deal, when in fact, they are buying junk. Well done
If I paid 400 to 500 dollars for them yeah I would be mad, but if you paid 100 bucks for three knives you kind of have it coming. I bought a Dalstrong knife and had the same exact experience. Then I bought a Sukenari R2/SG santoku and I have not looked back.
It is possible for the blades to be real damascus, just with low quality steels. In cheap, mass-produced knives, bolsters are often simply welded onto a flat blade to give it the appearance of an integral forged knife.
Totally possible. He totally fails to grasp this concept. I’m not saying they are definitely real but I’m saying his premise for believing they are fake is totally wrong.
I think it may be real damascus, a lot of companies solder or weld the bolsters made of a plain piece of metal on as it's cheaper than trying to forge the bolster into the blade. they will generally get the blade steel in sheets pre cladded and then stamp it out and go from there. i think the problem is that some Chinese made knives just don't have any heat treatment or just really bad heat treatment done on them. in fact a lot of factory integrals, western or otherwise, are welded on in some way or another. Doesn't change that it's a scam of a knife though, bit I think if you etched it you'd find it's actually damascus
It's gonna be completely honest here and say those really could be Damascus. I have Damascus knives that the pattern will wear down Over time and become faint. And they could have just not dipped that in fair chloride or bead blasted it depending on what Method they used. Could be cheaper steel yes. But alot of people get this thought and it's not true. The pattern isn't just there it looks like normal steel till you dip in a acid or bead blast for stuff like a vg10 Damascus. Laser eched looks way different. I could take my vg10 Damascus knives and sand off the pattern easily. The wider selection on that knife is the core probably cr3mov..or something cheap it it's Chinese. Some makers use vg10 there too. But that should be easier to sharpen. I just don't want people getting the wrong idea. Patterns do fade. And can be sanded out. Look at forged in fire the explanation that the blade has to be etched so they xan see the pattern to judge it.
Hard to tell off a video, but I can tell if it’s real or not in person. A lot of them sold online are laser etched or like you said “cheap” or improper steel. All of the Damascus knifes I’ve made still have the pattern years later. The darkness will wear away (which can be fixed by the consumer by a simple coffee etch). But the depth difference between the nickel and non-nickel steel will always be there.
@@erikcourtney1834 sharpening I've seen people do bad things to knives. Wood handles the dish washer so on.. I've seen them fade badly. But yes coffee is a great way to easily darken the pattern.
It is possible the bolsters could be polished so you wouldn’t see the pattern. (Silly to do that on a real Damascus integral knife). The real tale tale sign it’s pattern etched is if there are laminated layers along the spine. Since etching is the last step prior to handle assembly there should be something on the spine if there is something on the flats. The steel in those knives is most likely pot metal
That's crazy, as someone that sharpens all kinds of knives for people I've always been able to get an edge even on cheap grocery store knives. Like you said once you have sharpened lots of knives you can feel the Heat Treat in the burr formation and removal. I don't even doubt that it is VG10 but the manufacturer probably left it "as forged" ground it and sent it out without any real heat treating to speak of.
Not crazy at all, this is basically a demonstration that someone doesn't know how to sharpen. It is certainly more of a challenge to sharpen garbage knives but I too have never come across one that couldn't be made to slice phone book paper, even dollar store knives.
@@rockets4kids Jeremy is a fully proficient sharpener, especially with the ts proff. He fully raised a burr both sides then refined and stopped. The only magic to sharpening is there is no magic just a series of steps that lead to an end result. Un-hardened steel is different than cheap hardened steel
@@the_sharp_carpenter If you are a proficient sharpener you don't need overpriced guided sharpening systems. In fact, guided sharpening systems are prone excessive burr formation which can make sharpening more difficult than it needs to be. If Jeremy can demonstrate that he can sharpen dollar store knives then I'll accept that the problem is, in fact, the knife. Even mild steel can me made to slice paper if you know what you are doing.
Thanks for the vid. And for sure there are many fake damascus knives out there. Don’t think I can agree with your comment about damascus steel showing all the way to the bolster though. I own a few Japanese knives - Miyabi, Shun, and Yaxell. You dont see the damascus patterns on the bolster.
Well, technically you could simply not etch that bolster and be Damascus... But no one would be that stupid cause it would look like this fake Damascus
This was really interesting. We have a set of Miyabi's that we got a long time ago before I starting making knives. I see the same transition at the bolster. However, there is a couple faint lines there indicating that the bolsters are soldered on. I'm quite sure they are VG10 as the steel holds a great edge but is very brittle. I'd like to dunk them in my Ferric chloride just to see what happens but my wife would kill me.
The best steel in the world can't make up for a poor heat treat. Odd that someone would go through the trouble of making fake damascus. Sure, it's probably cheaper than real damascus, but it's not like damascus is particularly difficult to make. It can't add that much to manufacturing cost.
Devil’s advocate: there is a hard/crisp line where the pattern stops - could they have just only dipped the knife into the etching solution to that line? I have a Damascus pattern knife from Shun KAI and the pattern kind of gradually disappears as it goes to the integral bolster. It’s a fairly pricy brand so I would hope they don’t sell fake crap. The steel is nice (holds a really sharp edge) but if the pattern is fake that just feels like a lie. Would love to know more about how to tell a printed pattern vs a controlled etch or something.
Googled it myself. Shun makes VG-10 core knives clad in layers of other steels to give a Damascus look but it’s really just a plain steel knife as far as the edge is concerned. I bet those are the same but with a junk core. Cheaply made and cheaply hardened/heat treated. My Shun holds a great edge but I definitely learned something disappointing today. I’d rather have a plain knife if this is what they are doing.
@@Simplelittlelife When these blades fail to etch in FeCl I'll believe you. There is plenty of garbage pattern welded steel out there, that doesn't make it fake.
@@Mastermindyoung14 Have you ever tried to grind away the laser etching on a blade before? It takes quite a bit of time even with coarse sandpaper. The etch of real pattern-welded damascus can be taken away in a tiny fraction of the time with much finer sandpaper.
Maybe they just lasered a pattern on or maybe they only etched the blade and not the bolster so you can see the layers after polishing? Or maybe they just didn’t layer it properly so a softer steel is where the edge is. Either way, it is mostly for aesthetics right because of our modern steels might be better?
Of course it’s possible that he let too much heat get to the knives and destroyed the temper. I’ve seen guys I work with leave knives on the flat top….. absolutely destroying the temper.
Thank you for creating and posting this video. I was about to purchase a set of these AIKADO branded knives for $119 w/ free delivery, until I saw this video.
I’ve called out sellers on Facebook that are selling POS like the knives u worked with today.. Here’s a little word of advice. If a seller is selling you a complete set of Damascus knives for a few hundred bucks.. they are trash… Think about what it costs to buy ONE quality blade from someone who Actually makes them… SLL. Thanks for bringing this to peoples attention .
They look like the brand I ordered online. They came in with grinder marks on the polished blade from shaping the bolster and I sent one back and the second was the same. The first time I washed it the Damascus lines faded. The chopper I got has a nice profile but the edge I put on it holds for about three uses. It is now my crap use knife. (prying, hammering etc)
The problem is people thinking pattern welded is Damascus. It takes a Damascus crucible steel pattern. You can fake the pattern on really cheap and low quality steels, by layering and folding, but that doesn't make the steels any better. Real Damascus steel is a crucible mono steel that doesn't need laying to show a pattern. The popular use of Damascus to describe pattern welded has made people think that pattern welding makes steel better. With modern steels, pattern welding just adds potential failure points between every layer and doesn't improve the quality.
FYI: There's no such thing as a "Damascus crucible steel" since the Wootz crucible steel, that was used in Damascus to make blades, came from India. It is also believed to have been produced in some parts of Russia, and then it's called Bulat steel - still has nothing to do with Damascus. If one can't accept pattern welded steel as modern Damascus then one also have to accept that "real Damascus" isn't "Damascus" steel at all...in my opinion.
one isse with these as well is that they make people think that damaskcus knives should be cheap. making it hard for the blacksmiths trying to make money.
Yeah for sure. Never thought about that. Along comes a real damacus blade that has been painstakingly created with hours of work, and the price would barely compensate the craftsman. People would brag that they got some fake thing at much less of a price. Certainly does lend toward devaluing real craftsmanship. Very good thought. Thank you. 👍
I know that sharpening tips are made up of some core principles and then a sea of snake oil and superstitions, but I was curious as to whether or not you think wiping the blade before progressing to the next grit is important. I have done it because I was told the grits can mix and cause scratches when you get to the finer stones.
There are so many fake Damascus knives on the market. If you want an inexpensive knife made from good quality steel, grab a Victorinox. They don’t look fancy, but they are honest, and perform really well.
And here I thought I was the only one who gets highly annoyed by these cheap knives. I've had people ask me to sharpen them also and I politely decline now days.
what do you think about KAI knifes ? in the 200-300 $ range they have damascus pattern on the blade but not on the wide part either.. but i doubt they are fake. (?)
The pattern would only show on the bolster if it was dipped in acid. Which generally speaking even the high end damascus knives are only dipped to to the edge.
These are usually hard core stainless with damascus cladding. They an be anywhere from 56-64 HRC, depending on the core material used. Soaking stones can work on them, but it is better to use high quality diamond or ceramic stones, or possibly natural Arkansas stones. They will NOT sharpen fast due to the hardness. You need to take your time. Quality is highly dependent on the manufacturer. There are only a few companies that produce a quality knife in this style.
These are not hard at all. They are garbage knives. I know how to sharpen knives. These are not hard enough to retain even a hint of an edge. It’s not the way stones or anything else. It’s the garbage steel the knives are made of.
By no means am I arguing with your assessment, just wanted to ask that if they didn't etch the bolster wouldn't the pattern not show up? I've never forged damascus myself so I am just wondering.
Generally you can still see a slight pattern even when the steel isn’t etched. With use though, the pattern would come though. I’ve seen some knives they are Damascus, sold in-etched, and as you use them you begging to expose the pattern. That would be a cool experience hey? Cheers👍
He failed to mention that the bolster is welded on and made out of regular steel. These knives aren't forged and therefore they don't have what's called integral bolsters. He doesn't have any proof that it's not pattern welded Damascus cladding on these knives. His only "proof" is his own lack of knowledge.
Jeremy: "There are lots of fake things out there today that just don't work." Me: just glares balefully toward Ottawa... Those blades, whatever the hell they're made of, probably have the pattern acid etched onto them... that's why it's actually wearing off on one of them. Of course, when it comes to stuff like this, the old warning comes to mind: caveat emptor. If it seems like too good a deal to be true... it probably IS! And the reason there are a lot of companies out there selling crap designed to fleece the stupid people, is because there is a huge market of stupid people out there just begging to be fleeced!
I don't know if it's real damask, but I haven't seen any real test of authenticity. Of course, the quality will be lower, but if you are comparing a cheap knife with an expensive one, that's fine in my opinion. A quality knife will cost many times more. So logically, lower price, lower quality...
A couple of weeks ago a friend of mine brought me his chef knife set (custom made) but, his cleaver its crooked from both ends. Any idea how I could get it straight? 🤷🏻♂️🤷🏻♂️🤯
I had a friend ask me to sharpen a couple of knives for him. They weren't fake damascus just steel. First thing I did was take a small file to repair a small chip on the edge. To my surprise my file skated across the blade not leaving any mark what so ever. Idk what the hardness was on the Rockwell C scale but it was super hard.
I know the blade of the big one. It's cheap ( 4-8€ on Ali) stainless VG10 - damascus 2 mm thiness but a real damascus, i've grinded one and acid etched it.
To prove whether it's pattern welded or laser etched you could grind the pattern off and attempt to re-etch it with some acid. If it doesn't return it's totally fake. Even if it were pattern welded steel, the heat treat on (most) aliexpress knives is either non existent or trash. Even without resorting to that, if you don't see an acutal difference in shade in the pattern (from carbon content) and just a texture pattern, it is 100% fake. Strangely, pocket knives are a completely different story. Brands like Maxace and a few OEMs make excellent pocket knives, usually over $100. Sometimes you can get timascus inlays and such for $200-$300. I wish Chinese kitchen knives would catch up because it would be nice. A general rule of thumb is that real damascus steel from Chinese manufacturers will always be wildly more expensive ($500+) because it seems like they rarely make their own, and what they tend to use is powder steel imported from Germany and Sweden for those high end knives.
An X-Ray Fluorescence Imager will give you the breakdown of the steel to see what type of metal it is. Assuming you can image the core along the edge. I confirm the hardness of all the knives I make with a Rockwell C hardness tester. This is hard to do on a ground knife though as you need a flat surface. Pattern Welded steel is also hard because the outer core is typically a softer steel than the inner core. A file on the edge will tell but you will likely damage the edge.
bought a chef knife for a dollar at the dollar store 5 years ago, and im still using it now; never sharpened, it doesn't cut like butter but it still cuts. lol.
I've seen a lot of 'true' Damascus that is made in large sheets and cut to shape with a plasma cutter then the bevels are ground. There is no heat treatment. I've started taking a small round jeweler's file with me to knife shows and test at the choil.
I started making knife handles about 6 months ago. as a culinary arts student I don't have much money to spend and as a beginner I don't want to ruin a great blade with a bad handle so I some times buy these fake blades from aliexpress for 10-20 bucks. It makes for great practice but since I spend a lot of time on these chinese websites i get familiar with the knives and blades and I've seen the exact same knives go for 200-300 bucks claiming it's hand made japanese knives when in reality it's these 10 dollar shit steel. I don't have a problem buying fake damscus when I know it's fake and cheap. The problem is that some people are fooled in believing it's a good blade and ending up paying hundreds of dollars for knives worth a few bucks tops
These cheap Pakistani and Chinese faux-mascus knives are often either made of straight up mystery steel or even all purpose stainless steel used to make pots and pans.
Makes me curious about my supposedly 67 layer Cangshan knife. No Damascus on the bolster, they call it X7 Steel and can't keep an edge on it for the life of me.
The damascus part is real pattern welded steel - so it's not fake but it's only an aesthetics thing. It has nothing to do with quality, easy of sharpening or edge retention - since that's only effected by the core steel and heat treatment. This video is basically spreading pure misinformation combined with personal sharpening experience.
This is what you get when you tell your wife you want a really good kitchen knife for Christmas and she gets on Amazon and finds this crap for $30...Oh, gee, thanks honey.
Shame these are not your own knives to do some more testing on. I have a TakeFu Japanese billet. And one of their standard billets are 67 layer stainless Damascus jacket on a VG-10 core. So these knives are either rip-offs of that, or poorly etched…possibly they didn’t etch the bolster.
Yeah I was thinking the same thing. I’ve had a bunch of comments of people who think these are still real and if only I had the knives and they were mine I could sand the face of the bevels and try etching to prove it’s bogus. There wasn’t even evidence on the spine of the knife. That would at least have been made visible after a few uses. Oh well. If people want to believe something fake is real, let them. Seems everyone is doing that these days 😆👍
Fake damascus? You mean like painted-on damascus? Well, as long as the core steel is good steel, it should be fine. But keeping in mind that you might have painted on damascus, they probably scammed you on the core steel too.
Unfortunately there are very inexpensive Asian knives being sold as VG10 core with stainless cladding. In the 70 dollar range, they are what they claim. The misty gray patterned ones are laser etched with a surface damascus look. The real ones have depth and tiny furrows from buffing and polishing.
Yep. Just bought a true set of Damascus knives after owning a ‘fake’ set like you just tried to sharpen. I had the same frustration with them not being able to keep an edge. I feel stupid for getting taken but now I know. Really looking forward to using and sharpening my new ones for years!
so glad I saw this because I had this exact knife in my amazon cart ready to buy. Sucks they market it as damascus when its not. I guess for their price point its a case of "you get what you pay for"
The boster is not always damascus with damascus knives. Look at Miyabi knives etc. The damascus blade is welded to the bolster then polished. Clearly seen in the video. Could well be that these are damascus blades but of a very poor quality.
just found your video even if it's 2 years old, i just wanted to say that the knife's bolster is welded on. that's why the heat treat has gone to shit from the beginning of the bolster all the way to the middle of the knife. the edge still has a decent heat treat on it but the rest of the heat treat was ruined by the welds. they cut up the knives by stamping them then grind the general bevels then heat treat then weld on the bolsters then sharpen them up best they can. i've had real japanese knives that have had a welded on bolster and tang but nothing like this. well, it is japanese so, it's not an issue compared to the crap kind of workmanship chinese do with their knives.
People are more willing to be fooled. They will buy based on a name brand and assume because if it costs more then it's got to be better. If you don't know about knives just ask someone who does.
As long as there are people who believe that you can buy a good damascus knife for 40 dollars, this problem will continue to exist. You are right! Manufacturers should not lie to customers and suggest good quality just because it is damascus. But the customers should also be smarter. Good damast is not available for pocket money. That should be clear to them.
That is so disappointing. How does one make a fake Damascus pattern on steel? I have projects (personal tools, not knives) that would look good with a "fake Damascus" pattern.
Ive been going down the internet hole on this subject today as I just bought a new Miyabi Birchwood knife tonight. I started looking for a cool block and while on Etsy I found the brand "Senken" which looked really cool (and very close to what is in your video) then found the same exact knives on Ali for exactly 50% the price these are being sold for. It's a disgrace to advertise this metal as such especially when you are just drop shipping from Aliexpress.... Thanks for your explanation for someone like me who appreciated the artisan work this metalwork takes but does not have the entire understanding.
