Yeah, but that's how you get engineers and architects. I mean, when i was a kid my parents hauled me around their job sites, i used to play with squares and Letraset sheets. It worked for me and partly for my brother too.
I respect him for this, he doesn't talk about something he have know ideas of. Almost every diy selfer on RU-vid brag how pocket screw are the best.. i have my doubts
Looking at the video two times just to be sure of what I saw, I noticed two issues. 1) As was previously mentioned, in the two screw tests, you stood on one foot at point of failure but for the tenon test, you stood on two feet. The net weight distribution therefore was shifted about 10 cm to the left making the strength of the John Heisz design much closer to the two tenon design. 2) For the pocket hole test, the positioning of the screws was sub-optimal. Placing them in a staggered layout (on the left 3/4 inch from top and 1 1/2 inch from the top and on the right 1 1/4 inch from the top and 2 inches from the top would spread out the load. Thanks for doing the work and making the videos. All three designs showed that they were adequate for the task at hand.
@@placitas52 I know, I know and i agree taht: laughing at the misfortunes of others is not charitable, but mine was a joke to bring the situation to excess
That's a good point. Construction adhesive fights the peel adhesive failure mode extremely well and I believe that Mattias said he used wood glue which broke immediately.
Strength vs effort(or speed) ratio goes to the 2 screws in the back for the win. If i needed some shelves up and wasn't planning on hanging my brick collection on them that is what i would go for. (Also cause i don't have skills for tenons..)
Nice test! You forgot the PL on mine, though :) Important for people to remember that the single bracket strength is important, but since you will always use more than one, the weight each one carries is greatly reduced.
@@matthiaswandel The weight on a shelf exerts force both in shear and in torque. Your tenons address the shear but not as effectively the torque. Torque is best addressed by prevention, by perhaps cantilevering the foot of the bracket turned up and BEHIND the wall surface. NO glue, no screws, and no damn pocket holes. The road to hell is paved with pocket holes. Believe me.
This! Thank you Matthias! Despite hating pocket holes, you did a no nonsense, unbiased test on them as well. This really means a lot for me, your honesty and integrity regarding unbiased reviews/tests. Thank you, and keep up your great content please👍
Like every tool and fastener in a well-equipped shop, pocket holes have their purpose. They can be a clever solution to many solutions. Thinking they will serve as heavy-duty shelving fasteners is not the fairest of tests. That's not their purpose. But I enjoyed the video. Mortise and tenon once again prove their strength as one of the better woodworking joints there are. Thank you Matthias! Quality content as always!
When using screws, I recommend drilling pilot holes, just to keep the wood from splitting along its grain. I think the pocket hole would have done better, if the wood wasn't split by the displacement of so many screws, in such a small area. Pilot holes would have reduced that displacement, by making "room" for the screws. No matter what, ANY of those joints would be more than adequate for any thing you're likely to set on the shelves supported by 2 or more of those brackets, including a real life "Elf on the Shelf"!
Hello sir im from philippines,started watching your video since 2013.one of your project ive made like home made bandsaw i used it up to now for my small furniture business.i try also make video for my new channel about wood,im always watching your videos very interesting, i learned a lot of it.thank you for sharing your skills and talent.
These results make me feel alot better about having jointed my shelf brackets with just screws from the back either. I was - and still am- kinda worried it will just collapse at some point. Put this has put at least 15% more faith in it for me :D Thanks Matthias!
every time i look in the mirror I see someone who has had a driver bit jump out onto his hand, accidentally screwed something to his bench, and thought he didn't need a clamp to hold a workpiece in place 🤣
Several commenters have suggested that you make the joint stronger by doubling up on the fasteners - like running a screw through the tenons from the side. You pointed out how this particular process would just weaken the tenons, right where one of them cracked before. But if you were to use the tenons AND drive in a screw from behind, on center, above the tenons, it would provide extra strength without breaking wood near the tenons. How does that sound?
Your use of pocket holes in the video was strictly user error. You had a stripped out bit, used an impact driver, and used too long of screws. Also theres a place and time to use them vs when not to.
@@MK.1599 I use them all the time. They are fantastic for many applications. And with a little bit of engineering design you can use them on about anything. You can also combine methods as well such as pocket holes and biscuit joints but you can also combine Mortise and Tenon with screws.
I use them all of the time in my professional work, and they are great. I’m not sure why he had such a tough time screwing them in? He seems a little special to me.
The horizontal 2x4 in the screwed version appeared to be punky. I appreciate this test and it clearly demonstrated the strength of both types of joinery. Thank you.
I never comment but when you drilled that pocket hole bracket to the table saw, I literally laughed out loud. That's me all day long. Thanks for that Matthias!
I think the important take away is that all three methods held sufficiently for the length of a single shelf. More supports across the length of a shelf would increase the maximum weight the shelf will support. Also, 155 lbs at the tip is not the same as a load distributed across the depth of the shelf. I've been planning on organizing the garage this year and have already started off with about an 8 foot width of shelving. Compared to the work done in this video, I think I over engineered my shelves like a fart to a volcano eruption! I think I'll scale back a bit and save a lot of time and money ! I have a lot more shelves to go. I like the tenon method the most, get to use more tools, augg, augg me use tools (Tim the Toolman) !!! Thank you :)
It's super reassuring to see how slowly and how much warning you get as screws fail! (My worst crash on a bike was from a cheap Aluminum handlebar snapping off suddenly!) I could watch hours of variations on this test but thank you for reinforcing my unwillingness to setup and wait for glue to dry! XD
Thank you! More real information in less time than most test type videos. Logical and effective test set up. A person brand new to wood working and building things may not yet understand the value of this but for my part having some knowledge of these things a get to the point video like this is pure gold. I can (with what I already know) extrapolate upon the data you just provided. Ex. Same test done with straight grain hardwood, glue etc. Knowing what I already know this (simple?) and logical test gives me a place to start from as regards the potential strength of the various bracket designs. Brilliant! And straight to the point. Thank you.
If strength is what you're after, each method could easily be modified to achieve your desired goal, or pretty close to it. - For the mortise and tenon method drill, glue and insert appropriate sized dowels perpendicular to the tenons. Use wood glue on the M&T joint and the dowel pins. - For the screwed in butt joint, use button head screws (that are countersunk) in vertical base. Place them vertically equidistant from all four sides and themselves but offset a few mm's from the centerline of the base. In addition, use wood glue. - For the Kreg screw method, forego Kreg's Robertson screws, and use Torx/Star drive button head screws (Milescraft Brand or similar). Only use three screws, two on one side and one on the others. All equidistant from each other and the edges. In addition, use wood glue between the joints
i have been searching for u and now it was on my "homepage" I always wondered which one to do , and now I see actually I can do with screws simple coffee table, thank you
“But I still don’t like pocket holes!” 😂 👍 still appreciate you experimenting with them and giving an honest review. Highly enjoyed the whole experimentation. 💖👍
It would be interesting to see the "overbuilt" joints. Like glue, tenon, and screws to see if there is any benefit in trying to get more strength, or if the material simply has a limit.
I think wood contains an amazing safety feature in itself. Where steel would snap with a loud bang at some point without a warning wood is kind enough to tell everyone (who is willing to listen) that it might fail soon if you force it any more!
Guzzist11 steel also has the same feature (depending on the quality of the steel of course). It will bend before it breaks, however you do have to actually look at the steel joint to see if there’s any bending, whereas wood cracks and is easy to hear.
@@daniellemos5364 I´m most of all referring to stuff like heavy load chains which i use on a daily bases. We have anuual checkups, but if they go, they go with a BANG...unlike cloth for example.
Matthias, apparently pocket holes don't like you either. They even tried to draw blood from you, when that failed, they tried to break and drop you on the ground. I love that although you are not a fan, you are still willing to test them fairly and acknowledge them when the work well. A true scientific approach to not let your own biases stop you. Keep up the great videos. Also, OMG the kids are getting so big. Wasn't it just last week that you were making a self rocking rocker for your baby girl.
@@andy4an Ow yeah the dislike for pocket holes goes way back. Like when he did the comparitive testing using a kitchen scale on his bench. The dislike for pocket holes was obvious back then too.
Your results are exactly what I would have expected. Definite advantages of one method over the other, but in reality, a shelf with a depth of 12" to 18" with 2 or 4 brackets per shelf run would support a 100 pound load using any one of the three methods. I assume the tenons had glue, but the screw methods did not, so the addition of screws & glue would provide a little extra support. Always great to see the simple things, that we all have opinions about, actually put to the test. Use "the right tool for the right job", so pocket holes do have value in my shop.
LOL every time I see Steve use pocket holes I think of you, and every time you use them I think of Steve and your very serious YT drama Good to see you Matthias, and that your family is well :)
He doesn't like pocket holes, but I surely do. Amazing how strong they are for building face frames and such. And with glue added, I never worry about any pocket hole attachment coming loose, also quicker then tenons too...
Something I was wondering when you were building the two tenon version, since I don't have the fancy tools, was if you could make one large tenon. Then I figured the two tenons are giving you more surface area. I also thought that you could sort of make it adjustable if you added two dowels to the side instead of the glue. So what do you think of one large tenon and two dowels through the side?
Personally I think making 2 tenons is a waste of time. One larger tenon would be stronger than 2 smaller tenons. Also making 2 mortise holes in the backer wood will result in thinner wall thickness along the mortise. In almost all mortise and tenon joinery you see it is one tenon and one mortise.
The tenon joint broke partly because the glue joint failed; one large tenon would have half the surface area, so its strength would be lower as a result.
Very interesting. Lately we've been making brackets with some purchase area to clamp on during assembly. Reminded me of that seeing you try to get those pocket hole screws in.
In conclusion, all these three methods a more than enough to hold anything you put on the shelf. screw win because its faster for me. double tenon is cooler for sure! For pocket hole, I think that two screws are probably better than four. Most of the time, when you drive a screw in a 2x4 the wood split, it affect the structure. For all these scenarios, a small plywood triangle can be put on the side of the structure(mount and shelf). It could probably double the strength. Great demonstration @matthias Wandel !
Big uncle Steve will be along to teach you those advanced pocket hole techniques. 😁 Seriously though, destruction tests and comparisons like this are both fascinating and tremendously valuable, thank you and more please.
Those pocket holes did better than I would have thought. I do hate the square drive on pocket hole screws though. They always have a bad tendency to cam out, unlike torx screws that don't do that.
I started laughing when your drill slipped and you swore. Then you screwed that to the table and really made me laugh. VERY ENTERTAINING! and no i was not really laughing at you. Just tge fact it is so relatable. I could totally see myself doing all that. Thanks for the video !
Y'know, I'm pretty sure that John doesn't even OWN a pocket hole jig, so which one of you really hates them more? 😄 I like pocket holes fine, but I sure wouldn't use them in a shelf bracket. Still, I'm quite impressed with how well they did hold, given how they were crossed and grabbing just that small wedge of wood. I do respect that you just grabbed whatever 2x4 for this and didn't try to pre-select it.
That was interesting-loved the washer addition. However, your testing wasn’t the same on all three tests. On the tenon bracket, you distributed 155lbs onto TWO feet while you distributed 155lbs onto ONE foot on the two other tests. This type of testing provides much more weight to the far end of the latter two shelves.
BT yeah I was thinking the same but surely he was doing that but not really showing us until his penultimate side step and last position when he def was using one foot
And just what may I ask are you planning on putting on the shelves. Gold bars? Armor plate? Remember, if the shelf is in the workshop anything you are putting on it has to be lifted by hand most likely.
Try pocket holes on ONE side of the board. The strength is MUCH stronger. With screws on both sides, your essentially "scissor cutting" the grain and making it easier to fail. Overall great video demo though!
The fact that it almost pulled the screw heads through the 2x4 even with washers under the heads on the back, tells me attaching the shelf bracket to the 2x4 with pocket holes from the front will fail way sooner even if you use 4 screws because the four screws make more chances to split the bracket piece and the heads being in the bracket peace means there's only a tiny little bit of screw with no head behind it holding it onto the 2x4.
Could screwing a screw into the tenon joint from the side help? I would then assume either it doesn't slip out and the tennons break, or the whole vertical piece of wood splits in half. Now there needs to be an official comparison of (quality) 2x4 shelf bracket builds.
@@matthiaswandel perhaps if the screw was longer than the tenon and also held in the arm it would be equivalent to a head screw, such as those with washers, plus the glue of the tenon, almost like reiforced concrete (in Italy we call it "cemento armato": literally armored concrete: like a medieval knight wearing his armor)
Another alternative to fasten the shelf bracket to the wall bracket is to use bolts in the same manner that wooden bed frame rails are some tim fastened to bed posts. Drill a 1/2" diameter hole in the side of the shelf bracket that can be used to house a 1/4" nut.
It would be more than strong enough to climb on them, BUT i still don’t like pocket holes. This is enough for Matthias to get an audience burst into laughter!
I came back to this video because it jus occurred to me that even on the pocket holes you had to go beyond the length of the shelf bracket and at that distance it was still a phenomenal load on the bracket, though they were clearly inferior, unless you store a lot of really heavy stuff, they were adequate. Of course I would want more than adequate.
Ooo this was good! What about a large lag bolt with a decent-sized washer? Also, I wonder what role glue plays in all this (since the double tenon was glued). Would be interesting to try to expose the wood to watered-down wood glue, let it soak in, and then let it dry overnight.
I wonder if the screw or nail hole in the side of the end of the board with the screws (4:17) could have weakened it. It looks like the failure goes right through that screw hole. But it looks like there were also some screw or nail holes in the end of the mortise board as well. I love when Matthias does these tests and makes us think. Excellent info Matthias! Thank you for posting.
John smears PU Construction Adhesive on his Breakfast Bread - what's your point? btw: try it, i use Bindan-P as regular Wood Glue and Beco Allcon 10 as D4 Glue if it wasn't that expensive, I'd pretty much only use PU since it hardens so fast compared to PVAc
How the glue ages is important, but freshly glued mitered joints are among the best in strength tests and in this case it could have slowed down wood splitting.
Try using them on one side or staggered where they don't almost collide. But I guess if you just want to show how awful they are, you did a great job. All my indoor wood storage was done using the Kreg HD jig and 2 x 4s and 2x6s of Southern Yellow pine, Ditto for my outdoor rabbit cage hangers (15' each split into 6 cage areas). I use them for boxes, cabintes and many jobs around the shop. That said, I have jobs where I hand cut dovetails, hand cut motise and tenon joinery with both hidden and through tenons. I use my good planes, chisels and other hand tools for these projects as opposed to the ones for the farm I run and do a huge amount of wood working on. But if you don't like them, don't use them. They work, they are strong and they are fast - both to use and to learn. Spend a little time and learn to use them correctly and you may find you like them as much as methods that take twice as long for the job at hand. By the way - were the holes drilled at the correct angle for the board thickness and were the correct screws used. Didn't look like either from here and both are very important.
Thanks! I’m building some shelves right now and was wondering if I should buy brackets or build some simple ones like this. I feel much better using some homemade ones knowing it’ll hold more than enough.
Thanks for the test. It further confirms my feelings. For those brackets M&T is by far the best way, but maybe a bit larger. I use pocket holes to hold things together while the glue dries, but I will use clamps instead, if the pocket holes will be seen in the final assembly. I hate the look of the pockets, even when plugged, and I have never trusted their strength in situations like this. Good enough to use instead of clamps for faster gluing assembly though.
I knew you hated pocket holes the minute you started! Pocket holes are good when used with glue and are great for doin work without the need for clamps. Ofcourse they are not going to be as strong as regular joinery but they do have application, especially for those without access to a workshop...
A classic Wandel strength investigation. Very nice to see. Pocket holes just look so ugly. That is the main reason I dislike them. Not because they are bad.
I've done some roofing using 120mm lag screws, 8mm diameter with a big flat head, torx drive. Awesome holding power. After about 30 screws my makita impact was almost too hot to touch, was fine though.
