Best freestroke screw explanation I've seen with those marks on paper :) Thers's one small but very CRUCIAL remark - if that wasn't you who last bled the brakes, you MUST open the lever bleed screw before pushing pistons in, or you risk puncturing the very weak shimano membrane in the lever if the brakes are overfilled. Happens more often than you think. I just do it this way every time, just in case.
Yup! I should have mentioned it, and my bad for not doing so even though I don't really practice it (though I do believe I mentioned to push piston back slowly). I need to script this stuff in order to remember to mention certain details, regardless of whether I practice them. Thogh I will say that I've done hundreds of Shimano bleeds, and only once have I come across a leaky bladder, and not during a bleed. A buddy showed up with one at the shop after a ride about a decade ago. Next bleed video, I'll make sure to mention it
I recently performed my first ever brake bleed! However, I did not watch videos before hand, over pressurized the lever just as you explained, I also stripped the bleed screw and bled from the bottom forcing all the debris through the system. I have a new lever on order and patiently waiting to try again…😂
This is the most thorough brake hose air removal process ever. An extra ordinary medical syringe might help with pouring the mineral oil into the reservoir.
Glad to hear the video was informative for you. In a nutshell, yes, or at least the goal is to get to the bite a bit quicker. michselpatton4105 did an excellent job explaining the finer details in his post below. I tried when recording the video, but realized I did a crappy job explaining some of the details clearly, and removed those clips during the edit. Thanks for taking the time to watch the video
This actually incorporated everything ive seen on bleeding shimano . You can follow this and be done. Only thing that i can add is if after cleaning pistons , if one or both are sluggish, just apply some brake fluid around piston AFTER cleaning. If one piston is not retracting then hold good one back with tool and let bad one come out a bit more and thoroughly clean and lube a few times and retry both pistons again. Keep going until you get improvements. Thanks for the excellent video esp the free play screw
"If one piston is not retracting then hold good one back with tool and let bad one come out a bit more and thoroughly clean and lube a few times and retry both pistons again" YES!! I couldn't agree more and I mention this to people all the time. I think I even mention in in one of my other videos. but I plan on making another brake video soon (changing the brake cable and full clean and bleed for a rear brake) where I plan to go into what you mention. 👍 Thanks for such a great comment. 👌
This is one of the most comprehensive bleed tutorials I have seen, though methods vary, there is still some stuff to clear up here. The first one that will help the most people, is that shimano has made maybe 5-10 different servo wave designed hydraulic handles over the years, and each one is a bit different than the others. This tutorial is using one of the older handles, where the stock screw happens to actually do something. Rest assured there are many shimano handles where the stock screw does NADA. If that is you, you ARE NOT IMAGINING IT. That is simply due to the varying designs, all using the same exact length screw. Shame on Shimano. I sourced screws that were 2mm longer, and suddenly my XTR "free stroke" adjustment actually worked. Be aware, however, that you can only move the lever piston a short distance before you cover the secondary orifice in the piston housing. If you do cover it, your brakes will never have consistency untill you back that screw out enough to uncover it. That orifice serves to allow fluid from the master in to the brake line to compensate for pad wear, and also compensates dynamically for fluid expansion-contraction with heat, it also serves to let air out as it evolves upwards toward the handle, as it does in all brakes over time. Just going to higher elevations will allow air dissolved in the mineral oil to bubble out, and it needs somewhere to go. What is also super important to point out, is that using this method of piston advancement to shorten free stroke, also changes the servo-wave equation that Shimano is famous for in the patent world. It is a nuance, but advancing the piston with the screw creates more modulation in the system, albeit not everyone will feel it, or care. If you hate the brick wall feel of shimanos, this will lessen it a bit, and add a bit more squish modulation. This could be very important also if using magura calipers that use a very short piston rollback, for example. Shimano, by comparison has a much larger piston roll back because servo-wave moves a lot of fluid in the first part of the stroke. This shimano combination is famous for all of this as a very maintenance friendly brake, servo.wave also serves to eliminate pad rub issues because the pads are further from the rotor (large piston rollback) than other manufacturers who cannot use the servo-wave technology. I wont beat this to death, but my opinion is that if you want to shorten free stroke, do it with the caliper removal (or wheel removal) process described in the comments. If you want to tailor the handle to calipers with shorter pad rollback, use the free stroke screw to modify the servo wave curve, in turn creating a more powerful brake, as the most power is obtained from the shimano handle when it is deep in the lever stroke, or more accurately when the servo-wave cam attached to the handle has the most leverage on the piston rod.
I wish I wasn't so behind on responding to messages, so I could have thanked you sooner for such a clear and detailed explanation of the effects the bleed screw has on the system. I honestly tried to go into it a bit deeper into the mechanics of it all, but it ended up sounding like a bunch of babble, (which I already have a problem with 😉), so I decided to delete the clips and leave it at a high level. You laid it out perfectly in only a few words,👏👏👏 which I highly appreciate. Thank you for sharing your knowledge with others. 👍
Wow! Imagine watching a 29 minute brake bleed video and being glued to the screen the entire time, wanting more at the end?! Getting ready to do a build using these brakes, and this video is a MTB Godsend! For rear brakes I would imagine you want the bike angled back in the stand, correct? Anyway, thanks for taking the time to explain everything!
Thank you very much for such a gracious comment. I'm very happy to hear you found the video informative. Yes, for the rear brake, tilt the rear end down and make sure the brake handle is at the highest point, including the cable that wraps around the headset. Take your time with the bleed, and I'm sure all will go well. Let me know if you have any other questions
Brake bleed went very well. Couple hiccups on my end where I'd let the funnel go dry and have to start over, but not a huge deal. Took my time and was done pretty quickly. Took the bike out on the trails the other day with no issues. Thanks again.
Wow !! Again super nice video !! I've seen many vid on bleeding the brakes but this free stroke explanation is pure diamond !! Thank you so much 🙌 ! I just bled both my brakes in 25 min with the free stroke properly set !! Thank you 🙏
thanks for the gracious comment. always super happy to hear that others had a good experience. Plan is to create an equivalent video that goes deep into the SRAM contact point adjustment as well 👍
This is a very good video regarding free stroke adjustment and good explanation on bleed procedure. I would point out few potential problems that could occur while bleeding when following this: - when creating vacuum with syringe to pull oil there is a slight chance to pull in air between threads of bleed nipple bolt and caliper, this should not happen if you are careful not to unscrew more than minimum needed and threads are like new. If you pull air like this you should see it in the syringe hose but this is not always the case and there is a chance that air stays in the calipers bleed bolt and when you compress oil back from the syringe you push that bubble in the caliper and then it could be tough fight getting it out - what has not been stressed out enough is that this bleed procedure will work for most cases where air is trapped at brake leavers and caliper bleed bolt, there could be so many places trapped air could sit and this procedure will never get that air out mainly because "gravity bleeding" is not being explained/used - this procedure works better at faster flows of oil but also this has tendency to break big air bubbles in to many small bubbles (or even creating foam) which makes it harder to dislodge them from walls on calipers and hoses, if you see this happening my advice is to stop bleeding and let it rest for hours if not a day until small bubbles come together in to one big bubble If this procedure does not work for someone and they are sure brake system does not have failure point where brake system is sucking in air past seals I would strongly recommend to learn and understand how gravity affects bleed procedure. It's simple in a way that air being lighter than oil will always try to move to highest point in the system and stay there. Most common problems are air trapped in rear caliper behind pistons on the opposite side of bleed bold and or in the "bent" hose where apex of the bend is at higher level and if you don't enough oil in one push, oil will keep floating back to that high point in the hose and you will never get it out
I couldn't agree more with everything you said. I tried touching on each of these points in this video, as well as some other similar Shimano brake videos, but you're right that I should have emphasized them more. It's such a balance to try to deliver as much information as possible and keep videos relatively short at the same time (which the latter is obviously a bit of a challenge for me 😉 ). There is still a lot for me to learn when making these videos. Thank you very much for the insight. Comments like this, which can really help others have a better experience, are what I was hoping for when I decided to continue making these videos. Greatly appreciated! 👍
I completely understand that going through all the details and problems would be more like making documentary than a guidance video 😂 and most people would not watch that. My comment is to hopefully avoid having someone disliking this video or not recommending it because this method didn't solve their problem. I find it shocking how many people ride brake sets for bicycles and motorcycles are not bleed properly or at all and they complain about how bad they are. One more thing I would also mention is that wondering bite point of any brake systems is also directly related to brake pads being used and to how caliper poistons recract after releasing the brake.
@@nikolasestan2049 All I know is that the info you provided is worth gold to me, as simple as it may seem to others. I fundamentally believe in repetitive learning, and having others point out small details, whether I knew about them or not, helps with retaining information for the long term. A great example is using crow's feet. For decades, I've known that they are supposed to be used in a 90 degree manner, yet in the couple of videos I made, I had forgotten to do so. After a few people pointed this out, it's now a natural response again. To everyone out there. If there is ANYTHING that you see in a video that is either off, missing, or just plain wrong, please point it out. As much as I'd like to help others, I also like to keep learning. My only request is that it's not based on "BRO" science.
Thank you for this great explanation of free-stroke! Most other vids ignore it entirely. I've heard many conflicting versions of what it does and your video made it clear!
Super glad to hear you found it helpful. The two key takeaways on adjusting free stroke is always return the lever to your prefered position, and it's all about what's most comfortable for you, based on the trials you ride. 👍
That's up to you myman. what ever feels best for YOU! And don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Ride your favorites trails and try it both ways to see which feels best. just make sure to ALWAYS returns the lever to the preferred position after adjusting the freestroke
Very good video finally someone does it right! Shimanos free stroke is more than capable just never let out on people's videos for it to work! I done it this way last week my new XT 4 pot 203m bite is amazing now, no crushing fingers!
SUPER glad to hear that it all worked out well for you. And thank you very much for leaving a comment and letting me know. Now it's time to reap the rewards! Now go out there and crush a run for me because I've been out of town on work travel lately, and I'm itching to get back for a ride. There's only so much walking I can do without my mind driving me nuts!
totally Agree. That's how I pour it for engines as well. though I will say, This bottle design deeper than typical inward lip that has a tendency to pull oil toward the body. I've given up on it! 😁
Wow.. thank you ! The best bleed tutorial on youtube !! I did two times the bleeding and somehow i had a “soft” break lever afterwards. Once i unscrewed the free stroke screw and perform the bleeding again.. my break system it is as good as new ! Thank you again !
I'm super happy to hear the video was helpful for you, and I'm glad that it all went well. It might not be the quickest method out there, but brakes are one of those services where a few extra minutes to ensure a good bleed can go a long way. Now go out there and enjoy the season! 👍
Thank you thank you thank you 🙏 just bought some XTs and couldn't work out the best process for adjusting free stroke. You're explanation was pure gold 👍
thank you very much for the compliment. When prepping the caliper (cleaning the piston side walls) leave the system closed. After the bleed block is installed, compress the system so the pistons can squeeze against the bleed block, then open the reservoir port. This way you maximize the amount of oil in the system as well as center the piston for the bleed, making it easier to center to rotor to the pistons after you install the wheel when the bleed is done. 👍
@@zoubtube I think @gokkunguru is referencing the risk of puncturing the bladder in the lever with excessive pressure by pushing the pistons back in while the lever bleed screw is closed. This is a common problem with the delicate bladders in the levers (xt, xtr and saint), a very weak point in the design.
I've had bubbles affect performance. Originally was thinking I had a punctured bladder, but never saw any leaks. I'll give them a good bleed and see if this sorts it out. Thank you for your in depth explanation. Great video with great details
I'd say a solid bleed solves the majority of brake issues. the trick is a touch patience. Now, I will admit that a sense of OCD kicks in when it comes to me and bleeding, (especially with shocks and forks) but if your only doing this for yourself, what's an extra few minutes for what's going to be a year's worth of enjoyment. Let me know how it goes.👍
The push-pull method works well on my front brake but not my back brake. I used a tip mentioned elsewhere which was to use a bike stand to keep the bike upright so that the rear caliper is lowest (and closed off) and the brake lever bleed port is at the top. I then screw a tube with a bit of fluid in it into the bleed port (brake lever horizontal and tube open ended). I then gently tap, beginning at the caliper, along the hose all the way to the brake lever. I then leave it overnight and the next morning I remove the hose, re-seal the bleed port and hey-presto, a solid brake lever. Another tip to prevent air getting in at the caliper bleed screw is to put thick grease around the threaded part.
Thanks for sharing your experience with everyone. I couldn't agree more with you, and I believe I posted a rear brake video that talks to tilting the bike to assist with the bleed. First time and Heard of applying grease to the ports screws. Might give it a shot for next season. 👍
I am very glad to hear that the video was informative for you. If you want even more info on how this all works, look at michselpatton4105 post below. I attempted to explain these additional details, but failed to do so clearly and deleted the clips. He does an excellent job of explaining the finer details of the system. Thanks for taking the time to watch the video
I just used this method to bleed my M6000 brakes and this is definitely the best way to go. I've tried a bunch of other methods (from other RU-vidr's and the Shimano official way) and they're not as good and are more of a hassle. I appreciate your videos!
Thank you SO much for such a thoughtful comment. If you have any questions feel free to ask. I'm finally getting a chance to catch up on them (still have about 150 to go) but I should be able to response quicker soon.
I recommend that you pour the mineral oil from the container with the handle parallel to the handlebars instead of perpendicular to it, I assure you that it will be much easier to avoid spills. Sorry for my English, thanks for the video.
YUP! I totally agree, and it's how I've been doing it for YEARS! One thing I've noticed since I started making these videos is that there have been many times that I've deviated on some of the details from how I normally do things. Usually, it's just me, in a quiet room, taking my time while working on a bike. When recording, the entire dynamic changes. I start overthinking things, constantly feel like I'm in a rush, always think of how a clip turns out, have to work around lights and cameras, etc. LOTS of distraction. I just need to get more used to the recording part, but again, you are right as to pouring the oil from the bottle
Fantastic explanation and again a very informative video. I have the XT brake system and the free stroke confused me even after other videos but your explanation just hit the nail on the head. Thank you. please keep the videos coming.
Very glad to hear you found it helpful. The plan is to keep making videos but at the moment I'm WAY behind making them due to some unexpected family health issues as well as other issues. I'll get back on track soon. 👍
This was a fantastic guide. Would love to see more closeups though. Would help if I can see exactly what you’re talking about. It doesn’t NEED it though. Still loved it!
Thank you very much. I totally agree with you and want closer shots as well, but the GoPro has ~ 13" minimum focus distance, which makes it impossible to get close-up shots. I'm still trying to figure out a camera setup that will allow me to do this. My concern is that I get grease and oil on the GoPro during every session. It's a super easy to clean, especially with the media mod on it. Finding a mirrorless camera capable of 4K at 60 fps, plus lenses that are easy to clean, is proving to be a challenge. I don't mind spending the money, but I would hate to destroy it with grease and oil. I need to figure this out.
@@zoubtube Yeah the oil and dirt is an issue for sure. If you could find a nice camera that you like, you could always use a remote with it too so you never have to touch it. They usually let you zoom in and out to a predetermined distance with one button so you’d only have to set it up once. That will certainly help to minimise getting it too dirty. I’ve subbed now though, so hope to see more videos in the future. Cheers!
So I just bought a second hand grand canyon SLX 9.9 and the brakes were a bit too soft and needed work. So I found a video about what settings for the brakes etc. Free stroke al the way in and lever the furthest away from the handelbar. Yeah that didn't do a great job. Thanks for making the vid! I understand it a lot better now.
This comment (plus a few others) slipped through the cracks, so apologies for the late response. Very glad to hear it worked out for you. Bleeding with the free stroke fully out offers more viable options for brake feel imo. I like the options of hard and a bit harder. if you bleed in then the options are hard and a bit softer. I've never heard anyone complain that their brake are to hard. only the opposite. thanks for the comment
Glad you found it helpful. highly recommend taking the time to see which free stroke screw position works best for you. Most people expect an immediate response. it not. it becomes noticeable over time after going back and forth on trial you know well. Eventually you will find the sweet spot that will feel right for you. 👍
Glad to hear you found the video informational. I'm super behind on releasing videos due to unexpected family health issues. it's been one thing after another these past two months. If you have any questions let me know and i'll try to respond as soon as I can
Thank you sir. this was a friends bike and I want to say the handlebar is a PNW but honestly don't remember. Its a standard 3.18 handlebar if that helps.
Thanks. the effect the free stroke has is very subtle, but noticeable once you try it a few times. the biggest issue I find is people don't adjust the handle after they adjust the screw. one doesn't work without the other.
Thank you very much for the thoughtful comment. Always an internal battle with me with trying to add as much info, but keep the videos short. why do I always feel like I'm losing one of those battles 😁
Thank you for this! Excellent! I modified my SLX levers free stroke screws a while ago so I could use a flat blade screw driver instead of the U-shaped tool. Anyway, it's been a while since I've bled those brakes and this was the perfect video for doing it right. My SLX levers are now coupled to Magura MT-7 calipers. The power is simply amazing! And soooo much easier to bleed. Shigura for the win!
Thanks for the comment and I'm glad to hear the video was of some use. i'm curious to know how the slx levers compare in feel against the magura levers. it the bite more consistent through the stroke?
SLX levers with Magura calipers and Galfer purple pads, stop on a dime and do it right now. I would say the bite is very consistent and powerful throughout the stroke. I tried the Magura levers for one ride and just couldn't be satisfied with how soft the lever felt.
I had a guy on pinkbike 3d print me some 0.5mm thinner bleed blocks for my Saint brakes, so I could 'overbleed' or overfill the system even more than the freestroke bleed trick (you explained it very well).....some people eyeball this by using the brake lever to push the pistons out a hair, but the custom bleed block is far more repeatable.
Joker,, you are so dead on with this. I SO need to invest some time to learn how to 3d print. There are so many ideas to solve problems for so many things that can be solved with one of these devices. I'm honestly amazed at myself that i'm so lacking in that field. I keep pushing it out because of other technologies that I need to keep up with for work. Time, man. I need more time in a day 🤔
I dont know If i should buy the Parktool bleed Kit or the jagwire. Parktool Looks very good and makes everything easier. I rly Love Ur Videos and Ur knowledge. U gonna make a Video someday on bleeding Magura? Thats why i wanted another Kit i have Problems to bleed the caliper With the Standard one idk IT Drives me crazy. Lg
I've never tried the Jag wire kit, so I can't speak to it outside of saying that it looks like a nice kit. My opinion on the Park tool kit is that it is too expensive, especially if you only need to service one company's brakes. The one part I love about the park tool kit is the syringe holders. I use them all the time. You can now buy them individually, which is another nice option with the park tool kits. You can buy just the parts you need for your bike/s, which will cost you much less, and add to the kit later as is needed. The one part the park tool kit that is missing is a reservoir holder. It seems like a big miss to me, especially considering the cost of the kit. A subscriber on the channel mentioned that he uses a toilet paper roll, which is a great idea, but let's face it, for ~$140, we should have to resort to something like this.
👍 Just remember, it all starts with your preferred handle distance, always return the handle to the same distance. and don't expect drastic change. The change is very subtle, as it was designed to be, and you really should decide after a few rides on your favorite trails going back and forth between the in and out position. pay attention to down hill turns and tight a windy technical sections. that's where I felt it most with the back wheel
Excellent tutorial! I’m not sure why shimano call it one way bleed though . I did get the plastic holder for the reservoir cup with a cheap kit, indispensable
Thank you very much. glad you found it helpful. I look at shimano like an aircraft carrier. lots of firepower but VERY slow to turn. 😉 It takes alot for this company to make a change, or to admit that they should have looked at things differently.
Thank you very much and glad you found it informative. I know there's a following for gravity bleeding lately because some of the down hill race teams do it, but I honestly can't recommend it to the average person, especially those just starting or still getting used to the process. It's sort of like running before you learn how to walk imo. the average person should bleed once a year minimum. Do it on a rainy, day, take your time since there is no rush, and make sure the system is fully bled. You won't regret it. let me know if you have any questions. 👍
Thanks for the kind comments, and I'm glad you found the video helpful. As for the drivers, the one with the orange handle I bought on Amazon a while ago; below is a link. I love this thing. Great grip, strong magnet, super versatile, and it lets me change bits easily, and if a bit goes bad, I can buy just that bit. www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0972SYPTJ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&th=1 as for the driver with the blue handle. The driver is about 40 years old. It has been used and abused COUNTLESS times, and it still works flawlessly on just about any phillips head. I don't know what kind of steel they used back then, but I wish they kept using it today.😉
@@Les_GrossmanNo worries. Many of these drivers look the same, and except for my torque wrenches. I don't really get attached to my tools. 😉 But that blue driver phillips driver in the video is literally from the 70's. I'm not kidding when I say this thing has been totally abused by both me and my dad before me. Barely any wear on the edges. Need to remove a partially striped 4" #8 screw from a 2x6,, No problem! Need a punch,, Hammer away! I'm convinced it will outlive me, like it did my dad! 😁 The orange-handled one fits my palm comfortably, has a good grip with greasy hands, and has a strong magnet. I was VERY skeptical when I bought it, as most of these usually have crap magnets. Amazon reviews were accurate with this one. For $10, it was worth it, and I use it more than I do T-handles. I will say I've been pretty disappointed with park tools these past few years. I plan on making a video on this eventually. 👍
I'm glad to hear that you found the video helpful. As for the bleed screw after the bleed, it's totally up to you. The freestroke screw offers nothing more than a minor adjustment in feel. This is a personal thing that you will need to test on your own to see what your preference is. The one thing to remember is to adjust the lever to your preferred position after adjusting the freestroke screw, as it will move the lever. The effects are minor, and it will most likely take a few rides on trails you are very familiar with to feel the difference, so feel free to play with the freestroke at will. You won't break anything in the process. But again, remember to reposition the lever after you adjust it.
The blackness is the aluminum oxide in the mineral oil and created by the mineral oil as it removes the layer of oxide as washes across during fluid movement. As hard as that oxide particles are very good to not push into lever piston but all should be flushed right past the piston anyways if do such multiple time so when operate lever there is none in there. Very clean oil coming into reservoir via pushed thru calipers. But Then again pulling a vacuum can drop the pressure enough to cause micro bubbles in the mineral oil that may not even be visible to human eye is why not recommended and is only recommended to push fluid from caliper to reservoir. As when pulling vacuum if let the bike set those little bubbles gather and create softer lever and less braking power overall as air is compressed. Pushing brake fluid 5 times is allways a good idea also
If I understand your comment correctly, I believe you are saying that pulling the oil shouldn't be done because it can create small bubbles. I believe I explain this process in this video (as well as the SRAM brake bleed video) You are correct in that, when depressurizing a system, bubbles can be brought out of solution. Ultimately, this requires negative pressure in order for it to happen. Once you stop pulling, pressure will balance itself again, meaning, the micro bubbles will now go back to their normal ambient pressure state. This is essentially how a hyperbaric chambers work for scuba divers So if you see small bubbles in the fluid when pulling the syringe, you're basically pulling too hard. The issue with pulling too hard is not the little bubbles that appear in the fluid, but the possibility of sucking air in from the edge of the syringe and potentially pushing it back into the system without noticing it (which I believe I explain in the video). This wouldn't be an issue if Shimano made a bleeding-edge type adapter like SRAM has. Pull lightly, and this won't be an issue. As for those really small bubbles you see when pulling on the syringe too hard (depressurizing), it's not an issue. Again, the system will equalize the moment you stop pulling. Once you close the system, it is nearly impossible for it to depressurize. I say nearly because it can be done if you put the bike on the outside of a plane and fly to 30K feet. 😉 as for pushing fresh oil multiple times, that will work as well, (though it will require quite a bit of extra oil) but as long as you tap the system regularly in order to make sure you agitate bubbles to move through it, you should end up with a solid bleed 👍
I can't fault anything really here, Shimano brakes are easy to bleed, any bleed aim should be to get air out of the system, I simply funnel and syringe, pushing from calliper up to funnel, checking lever feel after a few air bubbles pop up, finished up with a lever burp, literally done in 15mins. Also alcohol spray is great for cleaning up any mineral oil spill :)
Totally agree. I always tell people to never rush the job, especially considering most people will only need to do it once a year. A few extra minutes can go a long way. The same goes for bleeding shocks, forks, etc. Once you get used to it, both Shimano and SRAM brakes bleed easily and fast. Thanks for taking the time to watch the video as well as the comment
I've found having the freestroke screw all the way in causes the initial pull to be longer than subsequent pulls (pumps up). With the screw all the way out the pull amount is consistent. Bled with the screw wound out.
I'm happy to hear that you are at least putting an effort to see what feels best for you. 💪👏👏Most people I come across are afraid to touch it. Just remember, there is no right answer. Whatever feels best for YOU on the trials you mainly ride is all that matters. 👍
@@zoubtube Sure. I should be clear that I only saw the issue when I bled the brakes with the screw fully out, and then after finishing the bled screwing it all the way back in. I compared this with my SLX brakes which have the screw all the way in from factory and you need a special tool to wind it out. I also couldn't find anything in the Shimano bleed documentation about winding the screw out prior to bleeding. I enjoy playing with all the options and finding what works best for me. Happy trails.
Hey there! Great video! Question; i like my lever max open, so the adjuster knob is turned all the way. When i turn my free stroke adjust, it pulls the leaver in, but i have no travel left on the adjust to bring it back. So, using the free stroke adjust doesn't help me. thoughts? I'm guessing the only thing i can do is use a thinner bleed block to get my pads in tighter to my rotor during the bleed process? Also, what;s strange, is my left (front) lever feels great, but i can't seem to get the same position on rear (all brand new parts, except rear rotor is not brand new, but surely it hasnt worn down significantly...) EDIT: (maybe i missed this step? ".... 15:44 mark in the video, after I install the bleed block, make SURE to press the lever a".. my bleed block slides in easily with the pad removed, but doesn't fall out.. idk, still strange front and rear are quite different...
If both lever is the way out you limit your options. When the lever and freestroke are both all the way out, it the farthest out the lever can go. Screwing the freestoke all the way in will bring the lever in a bit, but now you have no room to adjust the lever to the preferred position since the lever is already in its maximum extended position.. Basically, the lever needs some headroom for the free stroke to work As for bleeding with a thinner block, this can help, BUT,, it increases the chances of having too much pressure in the system, which might lead to a leak at the weap hole. I am not saying this will happen, just mentioning that there is a slight chance It is very important that you make sure both pistons move at a similar rate. They will never move perfectly together, but if the walls are clean, they should respond very close to each other. Many people skip this step, as my buddy did at the beginning of the season and complained that he couldn't get rid of the rubbing noise. I told him to go back and thoroughly clean his pistons and BOOM. Problem solved. Hopefully this helps some Thanks for the comment
Thanks. rider preference. the freestroke (as well as contact point adjustment) is a personal thing. It's all about YOUR comfort. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. just remember, both freestroke and CPA offer a subtle difference or minor tweak, not drastic.
@@zoubtube thanks. much appreciated. i indeed have a question. one of my brake levers needs service and i am not sure what to do. the big screw to adjust the lever position is stuck. when i try to move it in any direction it doesnt move. any ideas how to adress that?
@@ephraimki7783 if the reach adjustments screw move clockwise or counterclockwise and nothing happen than chances are its stripped, though I can't say for sure without seeing it. If this is the case, you should be able to find lever handle replacements for it. it not hard to swap out. let me know how it goes
Awesome vid. This is how I've been doing it after trying many different techniques. I still notice the the bite point changes as the pads and rotors heat up. Cool down and returns to original bite point. All 3 of my bikes do this. Is this just how shimano brakes are, or is there a fix?
Apologies for the delayed response. To answer your question, "Is this just how shimano brakes are?" For the most part, Yup! As far as I know, there is no absolute fix for a wondering bite point. Though the feel is very inconsistent, as in even if you had multiple pairs of the same model brake, you might feel it a lot with one brake, and yet with the other, you will rarely feel it. Making sure you have air out of the system will definitely help, so check the bleed port periodically through the season and top off the handle when needed
@@zoubtube I do notice it's usually the rear brake that this happens to. But I tend to drag that more than the front on down hill runs. If I top off the fluid without using the bleed block the bite point is slightly more consistent. Just be sure to not push the pistons back unless the fill port is open.
So you are essentially overfilling the system to get a better bite point. I’ve done this and it works but I also wondered when the fluid heats up there is no expansion room in the system and the brake could lock? Hasn’t happened to me this far with general trail riding but perhaps on a gravity focused bike with really hard brake use it could be a problem? Just conjecture. And yes when you install new pads and push the pistons back in you need to open the system with the cup installed to remove excess fluid.
Great video! But, I have a question. I just blead my breaks, and I came back to it a couple days later, and it drained a lot out. I tightened the caps on the top, and the bottom, but it was leaking out from within the break. Do you think a o ring could of broke within the break? Thanks
Thanks for the comment. So you're losing pressure but you see no signs of oil outside the system? first Check for a cracked piston, check for an oil leak on the piston seals. check under the hood that covers the hose to lever connection, check the inner side of the lever where the shaft pushes the piston and check around the reservoir cap on the side. Best way to check the above with remove the wheel and pads, install a block and pulse the lever with good pressure. this will let you know if your losing immediate pressure and give you some sign of where it might be coming from. let me know how it goes There is no seal that would fail in the system that would create an internal leak that would lose significant pressure. seals that fail will show signs of failures externally, but sometime they can be very deceiving and not immediately noticeable.
@@zoubtube I just took out the break pads and when I squeezed the breaks, a lot of oil would come out from the pistons. Also, I saw remanence of oil in the breaks. I am probably going to take it to a shop, but thanks for the help.
@@hollisterwithtomo504 piston or the seals are worn, check around the cylinder for any dents or burrs, I had this problem with my slx m675 on one side, be prepared to get messy and pump the pistons out correctly, new seal and piston , doesn't need to be ceramic piston, I did get a little oil showing after but i think it just needed a few pumps to set the seal in around the piston, no leaks since.
I never tried it so I can't be absolutely sure, but my guess is you can't. You would need to change more than just the lever. the push rod to the piston in the 9100 is attached directly to the lever handle. The pushrod on the 9120 sits on a barrel which contacts the level body (7:32 in the video). the 9100 won't have the seat of the barrel to sit in on the lever body. Because of this I can't see it working. I have another video that shows the 9100 disassembled. If you compare the two you will see the differences on how the levers connect to their pushrods
YUP! I'd say 99% of the time, that's how I pour it. For some reason, when I make these videos, I find that sometimes I do things that literally have me scratching my head during post. Hell, sometimes I can't help but think that I had some kind of stroke! I don't script any of this stuff, as it takes too much time. But because of this, there's so much going through my mind when making these videos that every once in a while it shorts out (though if you ask my GF I'm sure she'd say it happens more often than that! 😁 ) Thanks for watching the video and for leaving a helpful comment that will help others. It's much appreciated. 👍
All of the videos I saw seem to show more info than needed and make me more confused. For example, you sucked out the bad fluid in the 1st stage-makes Sense. After getting rid of it, you fill the syringe with new fluid, and push it back-that's ok as well. Why do you keep playing with the new fluid back and forth now? This should go up with no bubbles and that's it, am I wrong?
Good question. Just like in a syringe, small air bubbles can potentially stick to the walls of a brake system. To add to that, brake systems have very small holes that the oil needs to flow through, especially in the caliper, which can be seen in a video I made a while back where I change the pistons in a Shimano caliper. An air bubble can get stuck in front of one of these holes, allowing oil to flow around it. By agitating the system (gently pushing and pulling the syringe during the bleed process), it helps move air bubbles that might potentially be stuck on the walls. Think of it as a belt and suspenders approach to bleeding brakes. This goes for all brakes. It takes an extra minute or two, but it is worth the added assurance. Hopefully, this will help better explain the reasoning.
How can one get out of the jammed situation you describe at 11:00 in the video. I'm afraid my brakes could have this issue as I got them used and the screw is currently jammed. On both levers. I suspect the previous owner had made this mistake.
My sincerest apologies for the late response, but I'm still a couple of months behind on messages. If the small bolt jams the internal lever, your best bet is to unscrew it and tap the handle to see if it loosens the lever while leaning the bike a bit on the same side as the brake handle, then screw the bolt in again. I hope this helps
Technically yes, but I wouldn't expect to feel a drastic difference. I find SRAM brakes are designed with modulation in mind. Shimano, not as much. Chances are you will feel a touch more feathering at the mid-stroke, but the end will be an abrupt stop as usual. Just remember to return the handle to the same position after adjusting the screw, or else it doesn't do anything.
@@zoubtube thanks for the response! if i were to want more modulation for nose pivots and rolling stoppies, should i look into switching to sram? are the sram levers/masters compatible with the shimano calipers? i'm running m8000 xt atm.
@@floppywonka That's a tough one. In my experience, SRAM brakes provide more modulation in general. They offer a greater band of pressure before the hard bite. Some people like the feel of this; others don't. Expertise aside, a wider band of pressure will help with control. I like having a wider band of pressure available when riding very technical stuff. If you feel that it's difficult to find a comfortable level of control when performing a stoppie for instance, because the brake locks or gets too close to locking quickly, then you might want to consider trying an SRAM brake. I guarantee that you will feel a difference; what I can't say is if you will like the difference in feel. It's a very personal thing.
@@zoubtube awesome, thanks again for your view on this. i play bike polo and there's a lot of stopping quick from a relatively fast speed, nose pivots, and other bike handling maneuvers that require good front brake control. there's no rear brake on this bike so everything's done with the front. i got my m80000 xt setup used from a friend but it feels pretty wooden and grabby. this is my first experience with hydraulic brakes on a bicycle tho so i just assumed that's how they are. maybe i'll keep an eye out for a sram setup to try. do you have a recommendation to which sram setup i should look for? thanks again!
My limitation is only having experience with shimano and sram brakes. For that type of application, you might want to consider Magura Brakes. Seems to me Magura is popular with free style type riding. If you choose SRAM, I would get a brake with contact point adjustment (ex: rsc, ultimate etc) for fine tuning.
Very good video my friend! Just a quick question, I have a pair of SLX brakes, that are identical but the free stroke screw has a diferent head, I was thinking of changing them to a philips or even hex head screws, I know the thread is an M4, but i'm not quite sure on the length, could you please enlighten me on that measure? Thank you!
Thanks for the kind words. You'll need a U-shaped spanner like the following: amzn.to/4amUEq6 to remove the bolt (you might have to shave it a bit to fit, I made my own with a flat head bit and a dremel). If memory serves me correctly, I believe a 10mm m4 works. I could be a bit off, so I would buy a 10 and 12mm stainless steel m4. Remember not to force the bolt in too deep. Once it naturally stops, you're done.
Funny that you mention ebikes. They have always been illegal on our trails, with a significant fine if caught, so you RARELY see them. But starting July 1st, the DNR will allow them for at least a year. Then they will assess to see if they will continue. My guess is that they will become more popular moving forward. I'm pro class 1 ebikes on mtb trails as it really opens the door for more people, so I'm hoping everything works out 👍
I don't understand. I have a XTR 4 pistons M9120. Some people are telling me the screw needs to come out in order for brakes to grab quicker snd shorter distance. Is this correct?
in the video I try to explain how the free stroke works. it basically moves the lever piston forward as can be seen in this video. by doing this, it also shortens the distance of the lever throw in order to fully lock the brakes (~1 cm shorter), which is also seen in this video. basically, it adds pressure to the system, so don't think of it as actually moving the caliper pistons (which I've technically never measured, but pretty sure it doesn't do at all (might make for a good future video)). Think of it as adding pressure to the system in order for the caliper pistons to more quickly lock the pads to the rotor (hence the shorter lever throw) I would bleed the brakes as mentioned in this video, with the free stroke out. then go for rides at your favorite trials and reposition the free stroke on different days, make sure you DON'T forget to put the lever back to the preferred position everytime you move the free stroke or else it will not do anything for you. in ONLY works when the lever is put back to YOUR preferred position, which can be different for each hand btw (I so wish I mentioned this in the video). the free stroke is very subtle but will be noticeable over time, you might like with with quicker bite, you might not. Just like to many features on mountain bikes, this is personal preference and don't let anyone convince you otherwise 👍
My apologies for the late response, but I'm still very behind on responding to comments. The piston can be removed without removing the free-stroke screw. Hopefully, this helps
Hello, Thank you for the video. If you decrease the free stroke (thread the free stroke bolt in more), will this bring you pads at the callipers closer all the time (when you are not braking)? I have hydraulic disc brakes on the mtb (MT8000) and road (R8100). I like to have as less free stroke as possible, but I want to avoid brake rub more then having less free stroke. Thank you for the help! (I'm not having brake rub at the moment, but when I ride in the dirty rainy conditions, it does rub).
I've never measured to see if the pistons actually move forward when the free stroke is screwed all the way in from the all the way out position with a caliper. (Maybe do this for a future video?) The way I see it is it is more of a pressure response. When bleeding the system with the free stroke all the way out, you are maximizing the amount of oil in the system. From there, when you screw in the free stroke, you are "slightly" increasing pressure in the system, basically you need less lever travel to get the same response. Whether that increase in pressure is enough to "actually move" the pistons,,, I've never actually measured with a precise tool to say for sure. But I do know that if you want more lever stroke, or software feel, then bleed the brake with the free stroke all the way in, then unscrew the free stroke. This will be the least amount of pressure possible in the system.
Hello. The problem I have is that the new m8100 right hand brake lever, once pressed, does not return as quickly as the left hand brake handle. The delay is approximately 0.3 seconds. I bled the brakes, checked the piston and cylinder surface - everything is fine, but the handle is slow. What could be the reason?
I'm sorry to hear about your issues. Assuming the system is fully bled, and you're having this issue, then your best bet is to warranty the lever if it's new. Take advantage of the warranty. There is a good chance the issue is with one of the lever piston seals. There is a way to check this, but you might as well get a fresh replacement since it is not supposed to do this when new. let me know how it goes
It's a bit hard to see the one's that should really know their craft push dirty contaminated fluid up and out through the lever, as well as continuing to use gravity bleed. Your method here should be the industry standard and I say that because it just simply makes so much more sense. I applied this method to my own bike the other day and even though I also changed rotors and pads, my brakes have never felt this good before. Even when my bike was new I was just disappointed with the feel and bite of my brakes. Now my brakes feel like I expected brakes to feel at this price level. I know there are obviously better brakes out there, but there are also a lot worse than this. A set of M8100(with M8120 calipers) brakes should be pretty good out of the box and they can be very good with the right maintenance and rotors/pads.
Thank you so much for your gracious comment. From my perspective, the vast majority of people are only going to need to do this once a year. Taking a few extra minutes to ensure a positive bleed isn't much to ask for when considering the return. No matter the brakes, I always bleed them when new, as I do forks and shocks. Oil is cheap. Peace of mind is priceless😉 Now go out there and enjoy the season. Winter is around the corner 😉
@@zoubtube The only thing I will add to this method from now on is something that will only add a few extra minutes at the most. Just after you have cleaned the calipers inside and out with isopropyl alcohol, as well as the sidewalls of the pistons. After this has dried, you apply a thin coat of mineral oil with a q-tip(same as in the braking system) to the sidewalls of the pistons. Then cycle them in and out a few times and visually make sure they operate freely and in unison. After this I just apply isopropyl alcohol on a new q-tip and wipe off any excess mineral oil inside the caliper that shouldn't be there. After this you just proceed to throw in the bleedblock and continue on with the rest.
What do you think about that, when they do the full bleeding process with a bleed block installed in the caliper, then putting in the pads and the wheel and leaving the funnel on the lever, then they start pulling the lever, basically overfilling the system, saying that there won't be a vacum in the system if the pads are worn. What do you think? Will this make the brakes feel more stiff and the only down side will be that you have to bleed again if you put in new pad or it might damage the diaphragm/seals? Please share your idea about this cos' I'm in rabbit hole trying to find the best option.
Imho, it's not a good idea. If you have worn pistons, it is better to use a thinner bleed block as opposed to the procedure you mention. You don't want to over pressurize the system for the reason you stated. If the pads are really worn, then they should be changed. Pads can always be found on sale at reputable shops. Also, I highly recommend not performing the procedure you mentioned on the front brake. A funnel with oil in it over a caliper with brake pads in it could easily make your life miserable. All it takes is one slip-up. Check your pads, if they are good, perform the procedure in this video, and you will be fine
a question please : what about the lever position adjustment , how should it be during a bleed ? is it all the way out like the stroke ajustment or in , or it doesnt matter thanks in advance
I bring both lever and free stroke out. Just make sure to measure both before moving them, lever with a measuring tape or ruler from handlebar, free stroke by counting the turns. (unless it was at the all the way in position when you started). When done, bring the return the free stroke to where it was, then do the same to the lever.
Apologies for the late response. Yes, but that's just my preference. most important is what feels comfortable for you. Brake feel is a personally thing. go back and forth with adjustments until you find what feels best for you 👍
That is totally up to you. Whatever you feel most preferred. The most important thing is to find the most comfortable position for your finger. From there, you use the free stroke to find the preferred "feel" when pulling the lever and having your brakes bite. . Just remember to ALWAYS return the lever to the same position after adjusting the free stroke
This is typically a sign of too much pressure, which could be based on multiple reasons. But it doesn't necessarily mean the system is damaged. The job of the weep hole is to equalize pressure when needed. What you will most likely have to do is remove the cap and the bladder. I have a video that shows how to do it (I believe it is the M9100 brake video). You don't need to disassemble the lever to do this. Once removed. Check the bladder. If there is no damage, re-install it. Make sure the bladder and cap are seated correctly (this is VERY important). If the bladder does have visible damage, like a hole, clean it with alcohol, then apply glue; crazy glue, gorilla glue, etc. Again, When installing, make absolutely sure that the bladder and the cap are seated correctly, as shown in the video.
I haven't done one as its the same process but harder to record since the caliper is much further than the lever. I can try and do the rear brake on the next brake video
Apologies for the late response. A #2 should work fine. Checks to see if the head is stripped. Unfortunately, bike companies don't use the strongest metals. If the head is not stripped, is it possible that the screw was fully removed at some point and crossed-threaded when installed again? There's a slight possibility that it jammed internally, as mentioned at the beginning of the video, but that's a slight chance.
Man, I was really hoping the freestroke adjustment would make these levers feel nice but nope. The amount of travel before they actually bite is insane for an XT model. I had magura trail sl brakes and they felt amazing but I couldn't stand the constant rotor noise from magura rotors (they warp easy) and the super small pad clearance so it was just constant rubbing from warped rotors that would take hours to true by eye.
Freestroke, as well as contact point adjustment, are very subtle. In no way will the difference be drastic. Both are a small tweak to the system in order to provide the option of a more comfortable feel either way. In order to get more bite you can try a wider rotor, bleed with a thinner bleed block, or even move to a larger rotor or larger brakes in general. I would try bleeding with a thinner bleed block first to see how it feels for you. If there is a bit of a warp in the rotor, you will have to adjust it when doing this, so you won't hear the rubbing
@@zoubtubeI did see a video that a guy said to remove the rotor and pull the lever to bring the pistons in closer which I may try. I used a magura rotor and that did make it feel better as they are slightly thicker than shimano rotors but they warp so easy.
Best way to adjust bite point: 1) remove the caliper bolts, 2) lift caliper off rotor. 3) squeeze the pistons closer then slide caliper back on rotor. Check to see if you like the bite point, if you do… 4) clamp the caliper back on. (If your pistons came out too much, use a plastic tire lever or bleed block to pry them open until you get bite point just right. 😉👍
I just put a bit of positive pressure in the system with the syringe and then close it off. It makes a world of difference in pad engagement with less lever travel.
