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I liked Lucifer's approach in this route, Merkabah was all like "you will be punished" and stuff, but Lucifer was just chilling like "dude do whatever you want as long as you have the power and resolve to back it up"
That's because it follows his philosophy. Think about it - In this game he stands for the order of the strong. Freedom is meant for those can overpower everyone else. Thus him being beaten by someone clearly stronger doesn't upset him. In a way, his philosophy is still intact and his narrative proven after all - The strongest party won and has the freedom to do everything. Meanwhile the philosophy of law is broken the second Flynn decides to "rebel" against god. All who do not obey god are immediately "sinners" and must be punished, since god views himself as absolute and omnipotent. He is extra upset when beaten, because it proves his narrative as false - Clearly someone omnipotent wouldn't be defeated by some "random schmuck".
@@Mayhzon johnathan / merkaba does not openly accept that his ideology has been defeated, questioning what happened as if this was not part of what was planned. Walter / Lucifer does not openly accept that his ideology has been defeated, affirming what happened as if it were part of what was planned. they both deny their defeat, but while one dismisses the player's victory, the other tries to steal it.
@@dewo277e9 I think that Lucifer's statement "this cannot be" shows that he at least wasn't planning it. However, Lucifer's philosophy is to not suppress desires - the ability to fulfill desires (might) makes right. Flynn is mightier and uses his might to stop Lucifer's desires. Lucifer's philosophy "forces" him to accept his loss - it'd be hypocritical otherwise. After his defeat, Lucifer said that he'll see Flynn again after humans are no longer able to suppress their desires. Lucifer *can* and *does* accept his loss, but it doesn't leave his philosophy broken. Lucifer lost the battle - he still believes he'll win the war. He isn't trying to steal the victory in battle away from the player, he's only saying the player hasn't won the war. Merkabah wasn't able to accept his defeat because his philosophy is that God's light will overcome all. When he's defeated that contradicts his philosophy - God's light didn't overcome Flynn. Merkabah *can't* accept his incoming loss (partway through the second form) while maintaining his philosophy. Essentially, to live by their own definitions of "right", Merkabah can't ACCEPT his defeat and Lucifer can't DENY his defeat.
Law: Peace at the cost of freedom. Chaos: Freedom at the cost of peace. Neutral: Morally sane but solution is temporary. Pretty good pros and cons if you ask me.
Actually even if you choose law or chaos the solution is still temporary. People will eventually rebel against god in law and order will eventually emerge in chaos.
Something interesting: Johnathan doesn't directly face you to talk to you before the fight. He hides in the shadow. Walter does; despite already fusing. I guess this suggests Hikaru/Lucifer let Walter take control and minifest for a short time to talk to Flynn; respecting his wishes and perhaps the chance he could stop a fight occurring. Walter dosen't hide from you like Johnathan. He shows you what he has become; and it seems Lucifer is a lot more... respectful of his ally than the Archangels are. That and in Law Lucifer lets Walter have the last word. It also feels more like Lucifer is testing your resolve and strength. Merkabah is outright attempting to stop you.
Raikaria1 My take on these scenes is that Jonathan is completely dead and Merkabah is simply mimicking him in order to either screw with Flynn and Isabeau's heads or sway them to his side. His final speech to you in the Neutral route is extremely out of character for him. I also think Walter's conscience is still alive inside Lucifer, since his final speech is more in character for him, and there is the... physical evidence of him on Lucifer's second form.
True. SMT always seems to paint the "Law" side as "Absolute Justice." There are no ifs, buts, or in betweens - you're a sinner, you will be punished. The "Chaos" side seems to be more about total freedom, and that's not necessarily a good thing. Jonathan has been consumed by the idea of "Law" and so he is no longer in control - he is bound by this idea. But Walter has fused with Lucifer, who is all for "freedom." So Lucifer is perfectly fine with allowing Walter to appear. Moreover, like Walter said, Lucifer is the embodiment of human desire, and Walter clearly wanted to speak with Flynn one last time. So Lucifer respected that.
+Raikaria1 "That and in Law Lucifer lets Walter have the last word." But... in Chaos, Jonathan also says the last words before Merkabah dies (in case it's actually Jonathan, and not Merkabah mimicking him)
garomastervideos True; but the words are so unlike Johnathan; while Walter's words are easily those that Walter would say. Johnathon's 'last words' are immensely out of character.
+Raikaria1 i think with what we've seen from SMT IV Final that we can assume that merkabah / lucifer are only using their physical forms, like hikaru and gabby. once they fuse with a demon, their consciousness is merged so jonathan and walter no longer exist
I love how in the neutral ending you fight the Chaos and Law final bosses. Kinda shows you that those other sides have no perks. Other than the Chaos route actually showing you what happened to Hikaru.
The Archangels told the people to destroy it because worshiping a hero like Aquila went against God's wishes. If you talk to the people in Mikado before going to Tokyo, it makes Law far more sinister than it originally sounded.
Pretty much this. SMT isn't about picking the choice with the greatest benefits (all of them balance out). It's about choosing what you think is best. However, no matter which, there will always be negatives.
Rule #1 of the SMT series: Nothing trumps SMT 2 purely because you punch god, Satan, and Lucifer in the dick. That said, SMT4 was a really great game and I'm as satisfied with the writing as the others.
I wouldn't mind if Lucifer ignored press turns outright. No idea how that would work from a programming standpoint,but it would embody his 'pure chaos' thing.
I asked a question about Beelzebub in Persona 3. My Beelzebub had Sexy Dance and Charm Boost, I was like "How the hell would anyone find Beelzebub Sexy?"
@@bigboss0193 It's not there. I've been looking at both the viewer's right and Merkabah's right, I dont see it. I've been looking at the guy for 10 minutes now.
They chose their paths... At least you put an end to them so that they could find peace in death. Such a shame they were too dead set on their path that they couldn't be saved like Isabeau.
Although it is hard to justify any "happy" or "right" endings, for me, there is none. So at Law/Chaos ending. You saved the world, alone. Walter, Jonathan. Isabeau. Gone. None remain with you, to laugh together, to be even happy or angry at you for your choice. That is why at the end, the neutral end left you at least with the solution that you can continue fighting, because there is still things to be done to improve your humanity.
Yeah the fiends are pretty dang awesome. they just sit back and let you fight the angels and demons. Then you point a sword at them and they instantly kill you and then casually stroll off and resume their happy lives.
I believe chaos is portrayed as desire and ambition in the case of SMT. The repercussions of desire should be obvious, since crime and war are such glaring examples.
True, but the fact that it's called "Chaos" as opposed to "Freedom" or "Independence" and is run by the freaking devil should kinda imply it's bad in its own right as well.
IV and 2 were different universes, seeing as how Tokyo was destroyed in SMT 1 (and in extension SMT 2 cuz it's the same timeline) and, in IV, Tokyo was protected by masakado.
@@wubbawubba3396 Yeah, but the Expanse (or rather the Amala Network) already shown that it's all connected within every universes within the multiverse. As explained back in 3, and put into use during 4.
In most SMT games i do enjoy Lucifer. This one not so much, usually when you beat him on a neutral route he shows his respect for making your own choice and being able to overcome him. In this he just sounds like a sore loser.
She wanted to come but she was better used to get everyone to evacuate Mikado to Tokyo. She also had more of a connection to Johnathan than Walter. She may also have suspected that Johnathan was in love with her hence his anger and disbelief at parts of the game when she doesn't side with him or when he thought she had picked Walter over him concerning Lilith. Sadly Johnathan never had a chance with Isabeau since she only wants Flynn.
Honestly the neutral ending was that good to me, but fighting both Jon and Walter was cool.... honestly smt 4 could've been better, and I wish it was. It was still pretty fucking hard and a badass game though.
Devil Survivor has positive Law and Chaos ends. The darker series Neutral usually has a better end. Even if it means human stagnation makes Lucifer and YHVH return again to start more problems.
Going with Jonathan to fight Lilith also shows how stupid strong Walter is since he defeats Four Defense Force Divinities by himself. So it makes sense why you would fight Lucifer after Merkbah as his host is much stronger than Jonathan and has no doubts while Jonathan bore doubts up to merging to Merkabah.
I don't know ,the second they talk about exterminating anyone from outside of Mikado as if they were filfth, that's when it started soundign sinister, and that is basically the second thing they tell you.
There are 9 ranks of angels. Seraphims are the highest of them, being closest to God, Archangels and angels are the lowest being that of 8th and 9th. They are watchers of the Earth as far as I remember.
Basically both Walter/Jonathan sacrificed themselves to become Lucifer and God Chariot Merkabah respectively, that's why you can see their scarves during God Chariot's trasnformation and on the arm of Lucifer after he transforms.
Just like with Merkabah, he dismisses it, telling you that it's no time to mourn your friend because of his choices (in Lucifer's case, to become a part of him for a greater cause). Your stats decrease if you choose that.
The Archangels told the people to destroy it because worshiping a hero like Aquila went against God's wishes. If you talk to the people in Mikado before going to Tokyo, it makes Law far more sinister than it originally sounds (especially through the Law ending).
MAN. I remember wanting to slap jonathan the entire game, and then Walter starts talking crazy near the middle of the journey as well. The game ended the way I felt the entire time, wanting to defeat the demons and destroy the Eastern Kingdom. But whatever, I guess I have to except this way of doing it. Beat the neutral route, and will not be playing again. I loved the experience, but... I needed a damn map! Some quests are just better left cut out because of the lack of a map.
I'm guessing the instant kill move is only for Neutral route since the SMT games has a set neutral as the true ending route for a long time. As always they never make the True ending path the easiest.
They always go out oftheir way in the games to explain why Law sucks, but never why Chaos is bad. They just assume we know it's bad. Heck, in the second game, Chaos was practically better then Neutral!
Yeah, but I'm sure that was really Walter there and not just Lucifer using his appearance. I guess their counsciousness fused rather than giving in to the outer god
Because it's 4 vs 1 in that fusion and the Angels look down upon humans as nothing but slaves/tools to worship God. Why would they, now God's Chariot, wish to take the form of a being they despise? Lucifier understands humans somewhat and since it was 1 vs 1 he most likely allowed Walter some final parting words as a human before the fight because of Walter merging into him to restore some of his power.
Dunno why but for a second there Morax looks like he was holding up the middle finger... and i still say DLL (Demon Lord Lucifer) kinda looks remind me of Xerxes from 300...
It's funny Walter thought he was getting freedom but he is just stuck to Lucifer, showing that even pure chaos has it's own control and even order has its evils too.
