Really impressive work. This definitely took some time. It's funny, because Digital Devil Saga 2 doesn't have an alignment choice, but it has extremely clear cut law and chaos goals. Probably my favorite versions of it as well.
I personally would like to see YHVH portrayed as a benevolent force who wishes the best for all humanity, angels and demons. He still might force them to obey his command, but not in the way we saw in most games (aka doing it by force).
Hey tony, I don't know if you're interested but if you play strange journey, 4 and 4 apocalypse on citra you can download the hd sprite pack for the games from the citra's official community forum. I think it is specially handy when making videos when you have the higher quality sprites and also text.
Severing gods from human life is not that bad or sad. If all of those gods and demons only interaction with humans is to fuck with their life’s then I say good riddance.
I remember having a discussion of how to take the alignments of SMT in more interesting directions, especially Law. This would be more work, but splitting the alignments into smaller factions to allow for a spectrum of beliefs would make in game decisions feel far more natural and less of what you stated was the main problem with endings like 4’s Law: the disparity between the small decisions and the big finale. For Law specifically the framework is already there. Have YHVH be largely ambiguous, a voice who comes in throughout the game, but like his biblical depictions relies on his servants and prophets to carry out His will. However, what if His voice vanished for whatever reason (kinda like the set up of 5’s plot but not obvious)? The Upper and Lower choirs would have differing opinions on how to handle humanity. The Upper Choirs (led by the Seraphim) tasked with maintaining the laws of the universe, would come to the conclusion that sinful humans are destroying God’s perfect world. With him no longer giving them orders, they would default to their own thoughts: God’s perfect world above all. They would seek to either destroy or change humanity into something they’re not: effectively making them entirely new beings. No free will, no sin, but perfect harmony with all. However the Lower Choir (led by the Archangels) would oppose this. They serve God by interacting directly with humanity and know that despite their Fall, He still loves them and wishes for them to accept salvation freely, maintaining what makes them human and images of God himself. As God’s messengers, they would know the best way of finding YHVH’s guidance and lead humanity down a path according to his words, not his established laws. Chaos of course would be divided into alignments like Mem Aleph’s return to the primeval, or Lucifer’s freedom of beliefs like SMT 2. And finally for Neutral you can do either Yakumo’s “human’s alone” mentality (but in a way that matches your actions in game) or do the “bonds” ending from 4 apocalypse or New Chaos in Redux: a world where demons and humans work together.
So like Shin Megami Tensei Nine did it? With Dark-Law, True Law, Light-Law, Neutral-Dark, True Neutral, Neutral-Light, Dark-Chaos, True Chaos and Light-chaos?
That Law setup honestly sounds really cool, and even manages to work in that sort of underdog layer that Chaos and Neutral routes get a lot, with the whole lower vs upper thing. And it’d be a neat way to give Law players their own boss fight against Mettatron or Satan. The idea of adding to the stakes by having faction infighting that needs to be settled for you to have a chance of taking on the opposing forces is a really cool setup for a series that’s all about ideological conflicts.
@@P23P119 If you wanted to feel extra bad, it’d be easy to work in a “kill all the demons who helped humanity survive” part of the humanity only faction ending, kill Lucifer who just wanted to offer freedom of choice over primal urges in the Chaos route, and of course in Law: the Seraphim decreeing the angels wishing to preserve humanity are fallen and corrupt them before sending them to hell. Yes this would be a bit biased against the “pure” routes, but you can have their endings be more conclusive in their efforts, while the milder factions still leave the possibility of strife and conflict open in the future. The temptation of sin will persist, demons could attack humans if their alliance ever broke, and freedom of belief would give rise to extreme groups that seek to dominate over all others.
Law routes could be infinitely more colorful and interesting if they just brought back the idea of having other deities ally with the YHVH squad in the game’s conflict, like Vishnu being an ally in the SMT1 Law route iirc. They kind of revisited this idea with the Bethel leaders but obviously didn’t really stick with it.
Yeah like the force of god and Hinduism team together to deal with other gods that they see other gods as warmongers and wanting peace and harmony for humans(and there kingdoms).
@@starmaker75 I think the Zoroastrian pantheon-the Ahura Mazda side specifically-should all be dedicated followers of Law as well. perhaps they could make it so that the three principal deities of each pantheon-Ahura Mazda, Brahman the Creator, and of course Yod Heh Vav Heh-are each three sides of a singular lawful entity, embodying different aspects of Law?
Since the good gods as law and evil gods as chaos is too clicke, how about the current religions gods as law and ancient religions as chaos, with some of both as neutral
I actually find the strange journey neutral endings incredibly bleak, especially in today's day and age; basically arguing that humanity is incapable of learning from their mistakes to make any meaningful change, and that the only way they'll survive is through permanent outside help (the fact that space marine's role in protecting them causes him to lose his humanity is really pointed there too - he is forced to be an outsider to society for protecting us.) It's a really strange and hopeless take on a neutral ending for the game whose whole scenario is a direct allusion to the effects of climate change
Even if we learn to manage resources better, this doesn't change the fact that we so quickly forget the moral lessons learned at the cost of many. How many times are we going to try to implement communism before we finally realize that it isn't feasible? Humanity will probably attempt to implement it endlessly using the explanation that "it'll be different this time." Regardless of how many millions are killed in the process. Because humans don't learn. They struggle to accept that utopia doesn't exist. That the majority of their problems stem from their own hearts, and not from an outside force. They lack the foresight to be able to tell when their attempts to fix a problem will result in making it worse. So quickly we forget that materialism leads to unhappiness. So quickly we lose our tempers and act rashly. So quickly we forget the importance of responsibility and become consumed with licentiousness. Human wisdom is not passed down cleanly from one Generation to the next. It diminishes. Until it is completely forgotten. And then when catastrophe strikes, we relearn the lessons, tech it to the next generation, and it's forgotten not soon after. We exist in a perpetual state of decay. Never able to overcome the mistakes our ancestors have made. We are bound to them. Doomed to repeat the past for as long as we walk the earth.
All the original endings are bleak honestly Law makes everyone mindless drones, the second most extreme of all Law endings in the series, losing only to SMT2's straight up genocideal ending Chaos dooms humanity to extinction, since demons have a huge advantage over humans in terms of brute power and mem aleph removed the only advantage humanity had over some demons: wits and rationality. And Neutral is downright bleak and depressing as you already described
I think SMT endings could be helped a lot by leaning on the other alignment chart that they rarely actually touch, light/neutral/dark. Say there’s a law side that wants to destroy all it sees as evil and there’s also a law side that wants to uplift humanity to what it sees as the best path. Being able to have multiple flavours of law and chaos endings in one game would do wonders for easing the objective good and bad of certain alignment endings
There are only 2 games that use the Light/Neutral/Dark variations to their endings. Majin Tensei 2 Spiral Nemesis and SMT NINE. The former has a full translation ready, but it NEVER comes up in conversation. And the later doesnt even have a proper full translation. And its also a plagued by pretty dull gameplay.
I wish light chaos can be more touches uppon: a world where no gods chain US, where strong and weak are and work as equally for The betterment of The world, where everyone lives inbfreedom and harmony and able to Chase their dreams and purpouse in life with those You call friends
I think a big aspect of why SMT struggles so much with Law endings is that there is a strong underpinning that Law knows what's best for the world, and this often contradicts the central thesis behind having a choice at all. So you end up in this very narrow writing space, where you can't make Law too appealing to kill all choices either. Often, then, where Law endings best succeed is an appeal to the greater good, but at a sacrifice (so long as this sacrifice is not so great as to be unreasonable), so that Chaos endings that don't appeal to that greater good aren't unreasonable either. By contrast, then, the Law endings that are bad either fail because either the sacrifice is completely unreasonable or there is no reasonable appeal to the greater good.
Maruki was the perfect law rep. More SMT games need to have a Makuki, not another "hurr durr free will bad god good" plot like of what we've seen in the majority of games.
Yeah, Law by its nature is just too polarizing. It's either objectively the best or objectively the worst, with almost middle ground. Edit: I mean this on an ideological level as well. Law requires a central, all-powerful authority to function. If this leader is perfect (ex Jesus), then you get all of the benefits and almost none of the caveats. If the leader is imperfect, even if still well meaning, then everything's screwed. And even a perfect leader won't save you from his successors. Just an extended explanation.
Summed it up perfectly.In order to make law bad,they force EVERYTHING good about it down the drain to make its reps and demons(specifically big G) the most horrific beings imaginable next to chaos and neutral. Its almost comical how good law would be if they stopped going the "they're all genocidal" route for 5 minutes like they did in 5.
It would be cool if they meshed the traditional alignments with something like Nocturne's Reasons. Maybe have the divine leaders represent the Dark sides of Law and Chaos, while the human representatives err towards the Light. That way, you could pursue the alignment you want and either go all in on some twisted extremist world-view, or rebel against your own faction with the help of a friend to make it better.
I actually have an idea for an SMT game where the moral axis is divided along Light/Humanity/Dark lines rather than L/C/N. the idea itself is essentially "how can I make an SMT game as compelling as possible while maintaining moral ambiguity and creating a massive middle finger directed at the actual creators?"
@@WakkaMadeInYevon SMT has already done this actually, sorta , SMT: NINE was even named after this idea. Where the 3 alignments were separated into 9 different branches, each alignment getting a Light-Neutral-Dark. I think the Devil Survivor games dappled into this aswell, though I’m not exactly sure. I think it’s pretty unlikely that SMT would risk re exploring this idea in the mainline games, considering how poorly SMT: NINE did.
Cool video. Thanks to Lady Vergilia for the history lesson on Christianity in japan. I had read but a bit on it here and there, so I knew where this video was going, but I learnt new things too.
Nocturne's "reasons" seems like a right path for this. You won't be bound too much by the concept of alignments, yet you may be able to vaguely guess what alignments does the said reason possess. Not to mention, it was driven by human choice as well. My biggest gripe with mainline alignments is because other than neutral, law and chaos feels like a choice that you definitely need to choose and not because of the will of those involved. They made it impossible to 'stay human' when you chose law or chaos which is pretty weird considering neutral is pretty much turning the MC godlike yet still retaining his humanity.
i actually think the other way around. yeah, going for law is meant to shred your humanity to ascend into a "higher being", while chaos is the opposite, its shreding your humanity in order to become a beast of instinct. in other words, law would be to become an angel, and chaos to become a demon.
Agree. Even if I would honestly argue the reasons are all pretty fucking awful. I do think doing something different every now and then is a good idea.
I think the dichotomy between the two neutral endings in SMT5 are reflected on a comment that Aogami makes around the middle of the story, in which he states that demon summoners who are too heavily involved with the matters of demons eventually lose sight of the issues of real people. Ironically the ending where you do the most quests with demons is the one where you can choose to erase the demons in favor of protecting humanity as a whole. Though I think it is important that you can also choose the normal neutral ending after doing all the quests, which points to this being a crossroads where the Nahobino is identified to have become attached to the demons or not. I guess they chose to present the choice this way with the factor of the Nahobino already being heavily involved with several demons' issues because it makes the choice to still choose humanity more impactful. It's also important to say that Aogami is probably biased when he first explains this, since in the secret neutral ending, he explains that it is the path he would have chosen (presumably if he wasn't fused with the kid already). Of course, most players glossed past this because it was explained fairly innocuously earlier in the story (a problem with the story in general) and because most people who got the true neutral ending (me included) simply chose it because they wanted to see the "true ending", ignoring the second choice between both neutral endings as "just some extra thing", so the overall feeling is just "why did I have to do the quests to get this ending?". Regardless I still appreciate that at least with this dynamic that there is not necessarily a better ending. I remember getting the secret neutral ending and really debating with myself if it really was a better outcome than the normal neutral ending.
My favourite Law Ending is probably Amanes Day 8 Ending in Devil Survivor Overclocked , since it's one of the endings where pretty much everyone is happy. It also helps that that DeSu is one of the few SMT's that doesen't portray YHVH as straight up evil.
Everyone is happy? Under OLD Testament YHVH? If that isn't the biggest farce of an ending I don't know what is. I enjoy the tearing apart of this ending that the other endings achieved, as I'm not a fan of the peace and equality bullshit.
@@haruhirogrimgar6047 YHVH gives humans a chance of proving themselves in 7 days, thats more than what he does in mainline. Also during the entire game, Remiel is there to help you and your group solve the lockdown. Remiel is one of the few angels in the franchise that actually help you solve the situation, he doesnt even mind you refusing to using Bel's power.
Absolutely amazing work Tony. Like I already had a chance to read your early script, but also getting to hear your final thoughts as a whole, on top of the incredible breakdown of every mainline ending, was all such a treat (and very easy to grasp) as someone who has yet to play all the SMT games. And once again, thanks so much for giving me this opportunity to join you for this video! Really glad this project turned out so well! 😄
I am explaining a bit more in my own comment, but I will say that your part in this video was indeed great, and I think Japan's history with Christianity and the fact that Ieyasu Tokugawa and the other Great Unifiers were Buddhist does drive home not just this series' apparent anti-Yahveh bias, but also the very Buddhist vibes that I always got from Nahobino and Aogami ever since the game's reveal. It just all comes together in a very interesting way.
I feel like mainline is just too stuck on the idea of the alignments always having to be the same themes. I wish we could get more outcomes of Chaos learning the strong can lead the weak without bloodshed and anarchy (Like SJR and Overclocked did), Law learns it doesn't need absolute control and brainwashing to teach people to be good to one another (Also like SJR/Overclocked) and Neutral learns to fully accept everyone has good and bad points and one should be free to do things however they wish instead of "I reject you all, now go home." And you can still have the villains just be extreme sides of the conflict who are going too far and have to be stopped. It's also REALLY hard to want to side with Law when they're always portrayed as completely pompous jerks on a power trip and God is shown as the biggest, worst jerk in each game. I'm not religious in any way but do we always have to make God out to be bad by default? We can't just have an angel that's a little too zealous in their goals and God says "Hey can you maybe get him to cut that out?" or something? I realize Lucifer is kinda like that but I mean more of a Mastema but crazier kinda thing. I also really really dislike how being nice and kind is always seen as Lawful, being a jerk is always chaos and being indifferent and apathetic is Neutral. Like you can't have it any other way.
On your last point, I really wish there were more characters like Dahn from Raidou 2. He at first, appears like a stereotypical Chaos hero. Brash, hot-headed, not giving a damn about societal norms... But he completely lacks the "THE STRONG SHALL THRIVE!!!"-mentality. And all of his actions are for the sake of saving his sister from a horrible fate, and when his plans end up failing big time. And end up causing a lot of unintended casualties... He ABSOLUTELY REGRETS it. Instead of rebeling in it.
Screw Law, Chaos and Neutral are 95% of the time the way to go. Humans have created God(s) and demons; they do not exist to be subjugated by one or the other! Rebellion will forevermore flow through human veins. YHVH is a self-righteous prick anyway, both biblically and in SMT.
I feel like you want all alignments to be absolutely good, from the examples you gave each alignment is good and there is no difference in choosing between them, I think the purpose of these alignments is that not one of them is all good or all bad they're always a mixture, Lawful is teaching people to be kind and nice to each other by brainwashing them and taking their free will, Chaos is survival of the strongest, and so on, the alignments being more gray than black and white and sort of hard to choose between them is I think purposeful.
@@alenezi989a3 but they aren't grey. with the exception of Neutrality, the alignments appear designed to be as unappealing as possible. heck, my personal headcanon is that the alignments are designed by the Great Will to be unappealing in order for humanity to herd themselves like sheep along the path that the Great Will has laid out for them.
The problem is that a lot of them basically break down to: Law: “there are some situations where free will and freedom are bad” (objectively bad take) Chaos: “killing is fun and sticking it to the man rules” (objectively unhinged take) Neutral: “this is either the best parts of both of the other two philosophies…..or the worst parts” (either painfully obvious that it’s the ideal option, or it’s even worse than the prior two somehow)
The neutral case is even worse when you get a strange journey redux case that makes the neutral path seems completely pointless, as humanity never seems to learn their lesson, I'd much rather have it left up in the air, as in "We don't know if humanity will learn form their mistakes, but there is still hope..."
one small gripe I've had with smt as a whole is the characterization of the main four angels. aside from a few minor differences and appearances their characters are basically just "holy holy worship god or things are gonna get gory!" here's how I would personally portray them. Michael: I'd say give him a bit or a tired war veteran vibe. years upon years of unending conflict leaves him tired, the losses he's seen snuffed out by the forces of chaos and order and his own hands makes crave for this war to finally end, and if they do succeed, he wishes for a world of no conflict. A world where no man slaughter one another, and for that he continues to fight for his god see that world realized. Gabriel: I'd probably give her sort of a mother and daughter dynamic with Maria. Fighting to see a world where Maria can know peace, where she can rest easy and live her life with her. guarding her from others and seeing that chaos does not succeed, and that God may create that world of peace and tranquility. Raphael: tldr: "we're angels we're meant to be expendable." "not to me." Uriel: I'm not fully sure what you could do with him, but perhapse incorperate the banishment of Adam and Eve into it in some way?
That's an interesting take, ngl. That also reminds me that we kinda got some individual characterization with at least Gabriel in SMT2. She was the only one of the Archangels who found out about the fake YHVH and was the only one of the four still alive at the end of the Law ending. She acknowledges that what YHVH was doing was wrong, then leaves. It's not a lot, but I found it interesting that she went off on her own. I want to say that I think she was also the only one who seems apprehensive about making a Messiah.
I personally view Uriel as the "youngest" of the Four Archangels, and imagine him as someone who seeks to prove his worth to God and his fellow angels.
Honestly, as much as I appreciate the idea of not portraying God as wholly good (Mainly due to the West being very apprehensive to ever paint God in a different light), I do actually agree that making him wholly totalitarian is sad. I want an SMT game where God genuinely is a good entity, one looking out for humanity and trying to help people in the way he believes best. I don't believe God would kill people for simply not believing in him, or even worse yet, for simply existing somewhere. Imagine SMT4 but instead of Merkabah straight up killing everyone, they work to 'cleanse' the filth away from Tokyo. Flynn and Jonathan work to spread the idea of mercy and togetherness. They work to stop anarchistic demons from outwardly causing havoc, all the while still emphasizing the idea of a holy kingdom which would still drive Walter away due to his biases born from an unjust caste system. Eventually it would end with Mikado and Tokyo merging together and following the Order of God in ways that benefit others. Imagine SMT4A where you go to fight God and instead of threatening you incessantly and throwing empty words at you, he genuinely attempts to make you understand his position and only fights back because you are actively attacking him. It can still end with his defeat, but with an emphasis on his forgiveness of your folly, of his love for you despite your wrongdoings and that if mankind shows it cannot handle the burden of a universe all its own, he would return to help guide them once again. Im not saying Law needs to be overwhelmingly great comparatively, but I do think we should have some semblance of good feelings when going the Law route.
I like Reasons in _Nocturne_ and the large variety of alignments in the _Devil Survivor_ games. Always felt that was the direction mainline games should've pursued. If the writers want to stick to Law-Neutral-Chaos, they should make all options equally appealing. But they rarely are. I think a lot of problems would be resolved by taking the _SMT Nine_ approach of fragmenting the alignments.
As a newcomer to SMT, I found your catalogue of the mainline games' endings to be very helpful. I will say that I do think that the endings in SMTV are hit or miss (at least in my opinion). I honestly really like the True Neutral ending. I think the Chaos one is okay, but Law and normal Neutral are pretty bad (especially the latter). I will admit my stance on the True Neutral ending has been in large part shaped by the biases of SMTV's story, which I really wish wasn't as strong. The other alignment reps could've been so much better in my opinion. Especially Law. Edit: also, I found the Freedom ending of SMTIII badass. It’s has a lot of the undertones that made me like the True Neutral ending of SMTV, but better executed if you ask me.
I'm curious what you don't like about Law. For most of the game, Law and True Neutral have the same motivations: Lahmu shows up, reveals how powerful Nahobinos are, kills a bunch of humans, and you barely stop him. For the rest of the game, both Law protagonist and True Neutral protagonist are trying to stop the rest of Bethel from turning into Nahobinos and plunging Earth into never-ending war. Chaos by contrast is perfectly fine with a new age of Nahobino as long as the player gets to be the strongest one, and that just sounds really evil and bleak to me
@@TheRoboKitty Yeah, but the angelic choirs treat you like trash for the entire game, saying that your existence as a Nahobino is a blasphemous one regardless of the fact that you're on their side. And they go out of their way to state in some dialogue that if humans have fallen pray to the monsters, they should just be killed on sight like they tried to do with Sahori during the demon raid on Tokyo. Plus there's the idea of humanity not needing to think for themselves, only show devotion through their faith. That doesn't sit right with me. I just see it as humans' individuality being completely erased in the name of security. Also, fair point about the Chaos route. That's something I never really considered when ranking the r rings. My main ire with the Chaos ending is the idea that "multiple gods are better than one" take made by the reps. YHVH is bad enough in my book, but multiple selfish gods waging war is equally absurd to me as a Neutral sympathizer.
@@jj_grabes Definitely some fair points on your end too. The part about the mercy kill never really phased me because the angels aren't so douche-y they actually want to do it. No, they understand that saving humans is the best result, and only advocate euthanasia if rescue is impossible (which in the case of Lahmu, it was impossible). But them treating the player like dirt? Yeah that does tie into Law's one genuine character flaw in this game: the angels are stuck in the past. Everyone else knows it's time for moving on. Even Law protagonist knows it's time to move on from the unsustainable truce of Bethel and reevaluate what it means to keep the peace
notice how he describes Strange Journey as something good, and blames Redux for painting it as evil... when the ORIGINAL version of game itself already shows how creepy and extreme the outcome is. Tony is lying to you, both Chaos and Law are Bad Endings in the classic original version of Strange Journey
"I'm not implying that the Abrahamic God of real life and YHVH of SMT are interchangeable. Of course they aren't, this is a video game with it's own lore." Thank you for that, I agree.
YHVH, ywhach, god of Christianity, islam, and Judaism are all the same thing, the bible is the same just modified slightly between the three religions.
@@gejamugamlatsoomanam7716 They are not the same. Christianity is an extension of Judaism, but modern day Judaism rejects Christianity by rejecting anything that happened in the New Testament. Islam is Muhammad's twisting of Biblical stories he heard when he visited Israel, saw how powerful Christianity was at gaining followers, and wanted that same power for himself.
@@DRYstudios1994 It depends. The implementation of the god figure in the three Abrahamic religions differs, but as they all go off the Torah/Old Testament as an origin the described personality traits of the supreme being are identical. The NT does not really change this interpretation, it simply makes God more 'inaccessible' and focuses more on Jesus and (to a lesser extent) prophets. Overall, he is fairly consistent (omni and scriptural contradictions aside).
I’m holding out hope for an SMT V deluxe/revision that expands on the story to fix pacing, and to explore chaos+neutral (perhaps by employing Tao or Miyazu better in the story to do so)
I wish they were utilized more in SMTV. I love Miyazu so much, and I feel she could have had more input in the Secret Ending considering her role in the Khonsu sidequest. And then the whole thing with Tao could have also been better. Like...maybe incorporating her better in one of the endings (maybe Law since she's technically Law aligned for some reason?).
Thank you for including a section regarding Japan and Christianity. It's very interesting how Law in SMT and the strongest characters in the series are associated with Abrahamic religions. The alignment system has so much potential for more depth, I would love to see more moral ambiguity in the different endings.
YHVH is not ruthless cause he "hates humanity" but more like one who is "ruthlessly and extremely lawful". They just removed his "benevolent" moniker which is actually fitting. Other than that not considering SMT IV gray ending and considering SMT III reasons "lawful" did increase the number of "bad endings" assigned to law.
Weak though it was, I think you miss some of the points of V's routes for Law and Chaos. In many ways, they were similar to SJR's New Law and New Chaos ends. Abdiel and Dazai knew they would be defying the order set in place by YHVH, just as Zelenin does in New Law, but they make the sacrifice of being sinners to offer the world salvation. The Chaos route is in many ways the same outcome as New Chaos, the extra-normal beings dictated as "demons" by YHVH's order allowed to reclaim their position as the gods of old.
Yes I understand the slight nuance to Abdiel's decision, it just falls flat since she dies almost immediately and accomplishes close to nothing after coming to that decision. Chaos is more understandable in this game thought like I said the actual ending itself is disappointing
@@Tony4You While it is kind of...funny in a sad way how Abdiel dies immediately on the Law ending, I feel like the point hits harder on the other endings, where they display a willingness to break the taboo in order to have the power to stand against you.
An ending that deals directly with the demon invasion might be cool Law: offers protection/sanctuary from demons Chaos: seeks to live amongst and control demons Neutral: seeks to banish/destroy demons outright
Fantastic video to both Tony and Virgilia. I was very into SMT V upon release, but after the honeymoon phase with the game I realized how shoddy the story was. Maybe it was the influence from other reviews I watched, like Marsh and Simply Dad’s. You seemed to note yourself how unfinished some characters’ arcs were in V’s story. Do you think they really told the story they wanted to in the final release? I can’t help but feel like coronavirus and the international release hampered the team’s ability to create what they had in mind. After watching breakdowns of SMT V’s development and story, I’ve also better framed my love for the game in terms of music and demon design. I just can’t help but feel like we lost the story we were meant to get somewhere in development hell.
Some interviews make it pretty clear that V's development was not smooth. Biggest example I can think of is how Hayatoro, the doggo demon that its meant to be a japanese counterpart to Cerberus. Was meant to have a much bigger role in the story.
Smt 5 has really good concepts but doesnt really execute them well. I feel the story ended being fine but with alot of wasted potential you can tell it had developement hell
Thanks for watching and enjoying! I completely agree with SMTV's story, it seems half finished at most. It was a honeymoon for me bigtime as it was the first game I got early for the channel and while I didn't sing it's praises publicly too much, I personally had a falling out of love with the game over the following months. It isn't a bad game by any means, just disappointing. Narrative wasn't their main priority, maybe not even their secondary or tertiary priority lol
@@kuraux56s59 Hayataro could have been an early concept, not necessarily cut content. I think Amanozako role in the story is the best example to use in this situation: her role in the story was expanded and changed when they were already recording the English voice acting, which usually happens at the end of the development of a game.
Great video! Would love more nuanced alignments especially with Law in future games, though I admit I loved the Strange Journey Redux take where the new Law ending is a humanity-law focused alignment instead of going the same route other Law alignments do with the same God rules all focus. More options in games would always be great and it'd be nice to get to actually consider what ending I want without gravitating to neutral every time because the others are just so insane or off putting.
At the same time you could potentially argue that the plan to kill all of the below Tokyo is an act of God's mercy due to realizing how miserable everyone is. Though this is a heavily devils advocate position.
Another great video. You made some great points about all of the games. I think SMT V's hidden ending is my favorite. Beating back the demons and angels to protect humanity is one of my favorite parts about the series. Creating a world for humans, and nothing more, without gods and deities getting in the way. I do think it is weird how the requirement for the ending where you wipe out all demons and gods was doing the side quests that involve helping the nicer demons though (except for Shiva)
How weird it is to get it aside, I can totally see why someone would like it. Like I said in the video it has the most finality and closure to it which is very rewarding
@@Tony4You I felt that the weirdness in how to get that ending is was neglected. For example, you have to do Amanozako's questline. After that, you decide to kill her to create the world for humans. You also help Miyazu and Khonsu find demon-human love, just to kill him too. I think that the consequences for the hidden ending should have these parties beg for their lives, which would add some hesitation to that final decision. Imagine Amanozako crying and begging for her life. Imagine Miyazu crying and begging for Khonsu's life. Choosing that ending would be a MUCH more difficult decision with input from the demons who don't wish to die. Imagine their arguments: committing demon genocide in order to create the world for humans only. Honestly, I'd probably prefer a different ending if the game did this.
Law Alignment feat: A SMT mainline where YHVH needs to be revived through His Son taking his place. That's right, calling out J.C. for this one. New Testament ass whooping.
There's one thing about SMT 1 that still bothers me to this day. Considering God's interpretations throughout all of the SMT series, the intro to the first one always baffles me. After naming your character and dividing up your stat points God gives you a very clear objective: "Beyond this door, both those chosen by God that follow the path of Law and Order, and those that rely on their own power that follow the path of competition and Chaos await you. Be careful not to tip the balance between the two as you proceed..." I don't know if its due to the English translation of the game or what, but its such a clear contradiction of the way he's portrayed in later titles. Hell its a contradiction to his characterization in Megami Tensei 2 as well. Why would the head of the Law faction encourage you down the Neutral path? Maybe that's not God talking to you? Despite being depicted like him in every other game, the game never does specify if that's God or not. I don't know if I'm missing something or I'm overthinking it, but this has always bugged me.
Very interesting. It's hard to understand why, but I never thought the voice in the beginning was God. I always thought it was a proto great will (developer voice) speaking to you. If it is God it's a very understanding God lol
@@beanieboi7743 If it is the great will, then I find it interesting that it would bare a likeness to God in SMT. Or is it potentially, the other way around?
That dream sequence in general was never explained lol, why was heroine about to be sacrificed and why was law hero on the cross and chaos hero with a demon
There's a lot to unpack here, but one thing I find interesting re: Lady's section. The Japanese loanword for Christianity when it was first introduced was "kirishitan", written in kanji as 吉利支丹 (luck-benefit-support-red earth (?) not sure on the last one). Once the Shogunate persecuted it, it started being written as 鬼理死丹 ("oni ideology death earth") or 切死丹 ("sever death earth"). Kanji languages have this unique way to add bias to words that you don't get in western languages, I've heard of other examples such as certain Chinese tribes having their names written with the "dog" radical at one point in history. Alignments are interesting in theory but often are dragged down by the writers' biases. But in general I find that every individual has such different views of what "Law" and "Chaos" actually are that it's impossible to write for them well as bias will ALWAYS get in the way. I can even see this in the comments with how differently people here view Law and Chaos. For me personally, they can be summed up as "Put the needs of others over yourself" vs "Emphasise personal freedom over the needs of others.", with their extremes devolving into something resembling Communism and Fascism respectively, but that's not how a lot of people see it given how much Law is equated with Fascism and Chaos with "pure freedom with no downsides." I don't know how much of this is due to my upbringing, as I've heard Australian culture is considered to value egalitarianism and is not as staunchly freedom-focused as the US (we're definitely western and individualistic, but not very anti-authoritarian).
@@kuraux56s59 There's quite a long history of it too. I find it interesting as someone who's studied language, and also very sad of course. Western languages have slurs but they're often their own words. While with Kanji, you can turn something into a slur and still have it pronounced the same way through character choice.
@@BigKlingy Indeed. And its pretty twisted, seriously. Whoever came up with the idea of using Kanjis in such a mocking manner... I hope they got their just desserts in whatever afterlife they are in.
I have always had a Chaos bias despite the issues present in it (such as the survival of the fittest, easy means to suppress humans, etc). One game I actually like this in is IV, not because Lucifer himself is necessarily appealing, but because I felt Chaos Akira had a better chance at creating a truly equal and fair world for everyone than Law Akira or the Neutral route. It just felt like a world where, sure, there may be a great deal of chaos and uncertainty for a while, but such freedom also grants the potential for an individual who will truly unite and work toward a world of peace to exist someday. And when it comes to ideal worlds, you have to think beyond your scope.
Issues... More like reasons why Chaos will always be better than Law. Only the foolish believe that they can change the world. Survival of the fittest is merely an objective feature of humanity. I refuse to bow down to any god, nor would I coexist with idealistic fools like Akira. I'd rather focus on myself and my own freedom than bother saving a fleshbag.
I loved all the routes on SMTIV and I'd even go as far to say it's my second favorite in the series after SMTII. It helped that the story, music, demon designs, etc were all great. SMTIV was the reason I purchased a 3DS and I didn't regret that purchase. I probably put around 800 hours in that game and a solid 500 in Apocalypse. I enjoyed SMTIII as well but I'd say SMTII is my favorite followed by SMTIV, and then SMTIII as my top three.
The thing that strikes a chord with me about even some of SMT's more critical portrayals of the law alignment isn't just "religion=bad", which may seem to be the core idea of many entries, but that can also be a surface-level interpretation of something deeper. The series has stated a few times that the gods and demons seen in the games arise from mankind's many facets and desires, which is why many of the most powerful figures can never seem to be defeated once and for all. Thus, the incarnations of YHVH seen in SMT are also beings that reflect an aspect of humanity. I view the games in which the big man Himself is simply not present-or not in a way that's obvious-as some of the most compelling for this reason. In SMTIV, the archangels and their order are definitely shown to be comically hostile and merciless, but this works when they only CLAIM to serve the interests of God, who remains suspiciously absent. God is alluded to, but is never seen or confirmed to be in His true form with the player's own eyes. In the chaos and neutral endings, you don't have the honor of fighting Him, but rather, a messenger of dubious nature. For that reason, I see IV's depiction of law as a great showcase of the dangers of fundamentalism, which can lead to mere mortals developing their own god complexes. Then I have plenty of issues with Apocalypse's story, and of course "you're cool dude who gets to face off with THE God this time!" is undeniably fan service, but even that doesn't come off as too cheesy to me. Nanashi and Flynn are plainly referred to as Messiahs, who are sent by none other than the Great Will to overthrow the doctrine implied to be a reflection of some humans' desires. So that manages to continue at least some of the concepts found in the original IV, albeit with much more spectacle than elegance. Persona 3 may take the role as the most obvious "Christian video game", but the subtext can certainly be found in mainline SMT as well, which many fans may not be ready to really see when the series has garnered such a reputation for some seemingly superficial edge.
Thanks for the video man, I've been waiting for this! I'm personally aligned to Law but it seems very dirty how they write it in many of the alignments. It was a great video and the guest appearance from Lady Virginia was a freak addition I did not expected but welcome highly. I hope to see more from you in the future, and to a better Law representative in the next SMT
Abrahamic faiths were always kinda zealous and very forceful in the way they spread because how organised it was and how they always sought political power. Even now, some of the most fanatical religious people belong to these religions. The Jewish faith being the oldest of the 3 is the most chill but the same can't be said for the other 2 With that being said....... Sure, some followers of eastern religions are zealous but over all, these religions are pretty hands off and are more cosmology oriented than telling people what not to do Hell, the biggest difference between these groups of religion is how "sin" effects you. Abrahamic faiths say that God can forgive you but karma is permanent and it even transcends death
God in SMT is based on Gnosticism Demiurge, a powerful figure who beleieved hinself as a supreme deity, so that's why he's a bad guy in SMT. It was very clear in SMT Nine, in that game a figure called "Sophia" have a big roll in Natural ending.
Great video. It really sheds a light on why the law alignment in SMT is always portrayed the way that it is. It also helps with understanding why they went with the themes of polytheism vs. monotheism for SMT V, as it is a more interesting topic in a region where Christianity isn't the de facto religion. The story is still deeply unsatisfying, but the endings do give people with a mix of different opinions at least one ending they'll be satisfied with.
Great video. I myself have a bias against law because of how Yahweh and the biblical teachings was portrayed to me in my Catholic/Christian upbringing and found it deplorable. Interesting to see how culture plays a role in how religions are portrayed in media.
Most law endings bring Heaven on Earth. I, at first, was like you in that regard, but my favorite political ideologies became fascism and monarchy. Overall, at this point God is executing judgement on those who did not receive Him. God has three aspects to Him: Judgement, Mercy, and Grace. The grace and mercy period has passed, and now final judgement shall pour upon those who did not accept Him. Overall, The Most High governs over all thing and He is King.
@@jasonenns5076 Then you should know you worship a jewish god within a zionist religion, created to control us. We HAVE to return to our roots spiritually.
Don't worry about it man, Modern Catholics and Christians don't even know what they are saying anyways, Due to how much they have corrupted the bible to fit their own twisted narratives and hatred towards anything they don't like
the segment with virgilia was really profound and insightful. with japanese media im interested in how the aspects of japanese attitudes translate into writing decisions(because japan is an... interesting country, for better or for worse) so im glad virgilia covered the japanese relationship with mythology here
43:08 Portraying a religion that promotes peace as wholly tyrannical under the surface was fine for a time but now feels like something fishy is afoot. Once is fine, but this many times makes things uninteresting as it feels like the writers succumb to their own bias at the cost of a compelling narrative.
Blame The hippification Of christianity. Which was done to pacify Christianity because christianity Does raise the sword And has strict laws. But in the eyes somebody that only see it all about love They must look like a tyrant Because they don't allow you to Do whatever you want 😮
*me gunning down a harmless baby to reset my alignment from law to neutral to get the neutral ending* It is such a pain to pick because most of the time "law" is basically what everyone will do. Just because i help an old lady crossing the streets doesn't mean i want to live like a robot AND if i don't help her, does not mean i want to destroy all living things.
My biggest problem with alignments in smt is representation For as much as this series wants to present each route as a viable option and none of the three are explicitly good or evil.....they seem to loooooooooooove making the law route the most evil one Kaneko's interviews about how he doesnt think he represented god as a villain.....literally most games in the series portray law as the genocidal evil option and make it so neutral and chaos are the two best routes to take.I get that Japan doesnt exactly like abrahamic religions and considering history some of it is justified........but its been a huge overgeneralization when it comes to how law is portrayed Only devil survivor 1 seemed to have given law a fair shot as a route and even then it does fall into few of the same trappings as tje other games You'd think this would be obvious but,not every christian is a genocidal crusader and christianity isnt the only abrahamic religion. There is Judaism and Islam but Atlus mostly seem to take from the christian side of abrahamic history
100% agree with you :D. And one thing was funny to me when they explained Abdiels name in SMTV "Abdiel means Slave of God" or something. I think they refrence names like "Abdullah" which means Servant of God. Servants and Slaves have different definitions I would say. But they clearly overgeneralize abrahamic religion like you said :D Still love the games tho.
@@semiherdogan9862 smt is my favorite franchise which is why i expect more from a franchise that tries to portray itself with moral greyness All I ask from Atlus is to at the very least do their due dilligence of research,while the percentage of abrahamic believers in Japan are low they still can try and consult muslim,christian and jewish people and experts just within Tokyo itself and it can make a world of difference As a muslim myself i can tell you right now that we do live in peace with people of other beliefs and non religious people alike Sure every religion has its extremists but those are the exception not the rule,and a government's exploit of a religion to further its power does not reflect how the religion operates either Id love for a mainline smt game where law is either portrayed from its believers side and ask why their faith in God is as strong as it is and how they seek peace,rather than just confine the portrayal to the higher powers only and what the tyrants of history used it for,or at the very least present a different view of God that isnt the same genocidal view nearly every game had.
One major point I wanted to respond to: The very nomenclature of the "YHVH alignment" as "law" indicates authoritarianism, at least in some sense, as its focus. I don't find a bias towards or against authoritarianism to be surprising or necessarily reflective of a bias for/against any particular religion, in which case maybe the problem you're identifying isn't that law is commonly the worst alignment - it's the persistent depiction of the Abrahamic God as the focal point of law/authoritarianism, in which case that might be an artifact of the mythos' choice to adopt Abrahamic religion as the dominant religious backdrop in most of the games (at least, the one standing above other religions in power). The SMT3 analysis is particularly interesting in this regard - you identified Musubi as the "truest essence of law" with everyone becoming their own creator, when I think others might see that as the "truest essence of chaos/freedom" - everyone getting to live in their own world with absolute freedom. In contrast to Shijima, it does not have the authoritarian note of coercing uniformity, and it's unusual to call it "law" since while everyone can form their own rules in their own worlds, those are not really "law" - there are no true beings in those worlds to be bound by such "law" except the world's creator, who is not bound.
One thing to consider is that Judaism started off as more of a henotheistic religion; acknowledging the existence of many gods, but selecting YHVH as a sole patron. It later developed into a monotheistic religion where YHVH was deemed the only one that was *actually* a God and the others _claiming_ divinity were just rogue angels. I think the message behind the Law endings is that Law often presents itself as synonymous with Good and portrays anything opposing it as Evil. Law isn't intended to be a "Good" ending, it's meant to be a _cautionary_ ending of believing you are doing good things for the benefit of the world and its people, only to find that it either isn't nearly as ideal as you had hoped or might even be outright disastrous. "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions", and often Hell can look deceptively like Heaven, for those who remember that one "Got Milk?" commercial. Another thing to consider is that it has already been established that the only thing that really separates YHVH from the demons that were sealed in Hell is that he won the throne; before that, he was just another one of them. Is it possible that it isn't something inherent to him but, rather, an effect of the throne itself? Maybe before, he was more reasonable and thought he really *could* make the world a perfect utopia but not by stripping freedom and humanity. But the throne was too much for him to handle and it changed him.
In other words, the law ending could be seen as a critique on self-righteousness - a concept glorified in Abrahamic religions. It is through this lens that people feel justified in their own moral superiority and can thus rationalize any sort of action. A valid critique, given that a common argument made by pro-theists is religion's monopoly on morality. When in fact, religion often acts as a method to subvert any natural empathy and empower bigotry and authoritarianism.
i personally couldnt get behind smt1 and 2 gameplay, but hearing them described here makes me desperately want them to be remade so i could enjoy the great story without dealing with the outdated gameplay
I think 4’s Law has to be looked at with context a lot more. With Blasted/Infernal Tokyo, we see that without Law intervention at all the world is doomed to be Infernal Tokyo. With Mikado, they eventually allow a single young kid from Tokyo in, one who had nothing but good intentions (Akira aka King Aquila), and when three archangels get captured and Gabriel allows humanity autonomy, it results in the social caste system of casualries and luxurors and a society so repressed they can become demons with a slight prod. That’s 2 demonstrations that they have to be thorough with wiping the slate clean, or otherwise they have to be present to actively rob the remaining humanity of their free will to prevent outside demon influence from destroying the world, creating a corrupt society that festers, and enslaving humanity. In the law end itself, all angels proceed to leave the world, and humanity carries on supporting one another.
Concerning the Strange Journey Endings - Law: From what I interpreted, it didn't paint YHVH himself as evil, it painted the Angels, without any guidance, as zealots beyond reason, Mastema and the 3 Wise Men in particular. Whereas Laws usually idea is "sacrificing something for the greater good" on a cosmic scale, this version of Law comes from Angels, who dont have anyone truly guiding them, being willing to sacrifice EVERYTHING ELSE for their own good and ideas of a "perfect world". While Shekinah in Redux is supposed to be a YHVH stand-in, the Demiurge Sidequest all but states that YHVH himself IS NOT AROUND. He is fragmented and not able to reform (yet). As such SJ Law being a zealous, soulless Utopia makes sense- thats what Angels think Law should be, not YHVH. Chaos: My interpretation was similiar here - this Chaos Faction is not actually aligned with Lucifer himself, they are older gods who were pushed down by YHVH and fell to savagery. Their world is a hellscape of constant death, destruction, power struggles and violence. They dont follow any real ideal - they only want to destroy. The Redux Endings on the other hand feel like an attempt to follow closer to the Nocturne Freedom ending. Redux Law/Chaos are a human interpretation of their respective alignments - a more NEUTRAL interpretation. As such Redux Law tries to improve humanity into peaceful, but not perfect, coexistence without sacrificing individuality, where as Redux Chaos gives humanity the ability to have a fresh start, emboldened by their own potential and knowledge of their errors. In other words, the old Endings were extremes born from a lack of leading ideal figures (YHVH/Lucifer), in Redux HUMANITY becomes its own guiding entity on par with those 2. This makes the Redux endings more akin to Neutral-Law / Neutral-Chaos. Interestingly this makes Old Neutral and Redux Neutral basically the "freedom" endings of SJ - as ultimately in those endings, nothing changes. Humanity has not changed at all and the Schwarzwelt keeps coming back. Humanity chose not to change anything at all and sets itself up for failure by not being willing to. What made me think of these ideas is that Lucifer in Redux is willing to support you ON ALL the Redux paths, even Redux Law.
Tbh both law and chaos endings in redux are way better imo. The neutral redux ending really is just an epilogue of the regular neutral and that humanity just keeps fucking up every time and I guess the protagonist is just hoping everytime that humans eventually make things right
This video pretty much sums up why I almost never choose the Law routes. The question of "Is losing free will and all potential for human advancement in exchange for eternal peace worth it?" Is an interesting one...but my answer is No, so that basically nullifies any interest in picking most Law routes. Shouldn't Law strive to restore the status quo? Return to the old world with no demons and with YHVH watching over humanity? And even as a Chaos advocate, this video made me realize that Lucifer generally just seems to be against YHVH and in favor of freedom for all...so why do Chaos endings always end in death and destruction? It's kind of disappointing that at this point when I boot up an SMT game, I'm already telling myself that I'm going for Chaos first, then Neutral and then Law just for completion sake because I just already know Law will be the least appealing option to me.
Yea the alignment and rep kinda messes with the worth of the alignment system. With chaos almost always ending as destruction kinda goes against lucifer who in most games champions freedom, which is why their should be variations on each alignment showing the potential ways it can go as chaos can depending how things go can create a great prosperous world but with the threat of potentially falling due to the grand freedom. Law could even go for a angle of potentially having no complete peace but great peace and freedom but laws keep people in check but laws are more flexible and isnt just about punishment. Really i think main issue is the way the routes are framed
SMT5 was a curious case for me. I wonder how the game ever expected the player to choose the law route when Abdiel,the law representitive,calls you a sinful being that shouldn't even exist and that she would destroy you if you weren't that powerful time and time again.
I feel like SMT IV did have its minor upsides, like peace and a pretty idyllic life in the kingdom of Mikado. I’ll add that while it doesn’t seem to you as though anyone would choose it, clearly the few that it would benefit would certainly choose it, and that’s plenty to make it a plausible ending. Moreover, to you, choosing genocide for the peace of a select group is inconceivable, but history shows that it’s been the will of many leaders or people at different points in time. I also found the White Ending to be kind of compelling, but I didn’t end existence because I didn’t want to die/wanted to keep playing. The only way to truly eliminate suffering is to eliminate existence itself. Def something a lot of people can sympathize with.
Its really weird that SMTV Law got awkward characterization despite the entire story being you working with bethel. It should be really simple to explain that YHVH protected tokyo and has only acted in humanities interests in smtv but abdiel keeps wanting to kill you and dazai goes from 0 to 100 making him hard to like.
I actually like Dazai. I enjoy characters like him who take matters into their own hands. Of course it could've been set up better, though I revel in Dazai's Black Air Force energy.
SMT5 could have worked better if they 1) had characters travel with you through the areas. Yuzuru travels with you in area 1 when you meet up, there's no reason to split up. Area 2 Dazai comes with you to make up for failing to protect the school which builds on him going to Abdiel and law for strength, Yuzuru comes because he's worried about his sister and desires power to protect her and others leading to chaos, and Tao to save her friend. Tao dies and Dazai and Yuzuru are unable to protect her which push them further to law or chaos. Area 3 Dazai and Yuzuru travel with you, further in their ideals and beating the demon king the split happens and you pick a side 2) made the alignment lock before the fourth area, so then you could travel through it collecting the keys with your rep, allowing more development of the characters and ideologies. 3) made Dazai's turn make more sense by having him being manipulated/controlled/influenced by Abdiel like Sahori was by Lahmu. 4) had Miyazu be the neutral or true/hidden neutral rep. She wants to save people as a doctor, wants to be stronger and do more after having been kidnapped and failed to help Sahori. Teams up with Khonsu and goddess Tao. Also means they should have done more with Yakumo since he's so underused for an alignment rep
Hopefully SMTV gets a greatly expanded/revamped version later on that does a better job making the journey make more narrative sense for each alignment
Nice analysis! Also, I was watcing a collection of the SMT V endings and someone wrote "all the endings made me feel bad" and the overwhelming replies were "Welcome to SMT!"
I know a lot of people feel like SMT V's secret ending has a theme disconnected from some of its side quest requirements, but I rather like that. You have to see all these different sides of demons from the benevolent Fionn Mac Cumhail, to Khonsu's empathy for a human leading him to foolish pursuit and the Egyptian pantheon's concern for him, to Shiva's desire to destroy everything to recreate the world. And after see all this you still get to decide if recreating the world without demons or not is the way you want to go. It gives that choice more weight than if you did not have those experiences.
"Yahweh is consistently portrayed as a being with nothing but hate and a lack of respect for the human race" I mean, to be fair to the game, people have been writing the character like that for thousands of years... >_>
It would be interesting to see for at least one mainline game that doesn’t have a neutral route. In most of the games I’ve played the neutral route seems like a cop out for not wanting to commit to one or the other which I do understand since both law and chaos come off as very extreme, making neutral the most “sane” option and the one I usually gravitate towards since it usually has no drawbacks. Especially in SMT 4 neutral/bonds route where they let you have your cake and eat it too.
The SJ law ending is what made me have a massive aversion to Law routes from then on. Yeah, I'm definitely not down with all of humanity being mindless slaves for YHVH.
It's not hard for me to choose. I look at nature. In which path does nature thrive? Not man, nature. Which is why it was so easy for me to go Law in SMTIV. The world of Mikado is lush, vibrant and healthy. The world below was so FUBAR that a final solution was needed. Easy choice. If you need to guide humans so that they live in peace with nature then so be it. That's true Law.
Being honest from a perspective of having no bias towards any alignment, it doesn't feel like law is portrayed in a negative light like you say. It feels like one game focused on law(1), one chaos(2), one neutral (4), while the rest took an equal opportunity stance (5 strange, nocture). Even towards 5's secret ending I didn't see it as that bleak but more of a separation of worlds as opposed to full non existence due to the nature that the mc as a nahobino exists still, especially since yhwh couldn't erase the other gods only put them down. Just like real life we don't know if there's something beyond because a spiritual sense comes from each individual so saying that it takes away doesn't feel right considering a normal person in universe wouldn't know the difference of having real demons or not. As for yhwh any times he was portrayed as "obviously evil" usually had the other reps also portrayed as extremes unless the game was favoring them from the get go (2 immediately comes to mind in comparison to 4 for instance). And with how society functions today with parroting topics in order to fit in, the irony of law reps usually having a "hive mind" doesn't really strike me as overtly negative or vice versa with chaos reps social darwinism because again elements can be found in irl lives. Needless to say I agree that many wouldn't choose these option in the games but usually the portrayal of these reps are associated with games where they are extremes ie smt4
You know, I dropped off this video at the SMT V segment at first, because I didn’t want spoilers. Then I remembered that getting spoilers on Nocturne made me consider my choices long before I played it, your recent video on the Devil Survivor 1 endings make me feel the same and want to play DS1, and now that I’m picking DS2 back up I really wish I had that foresight. My point is, mainline SMT, the endings in particular, might be a case where spoilers are kind of good. I think there’s value in knowing which alignment you want going in. Especially with the Law endings that make being a goody two shoes end in genocide.
in regard to alignemnt, to me, there should've been 6 directions instead: 1)law+law: you become a follower of god, and ascend to become an angel and wipe humanity so god can create its perfect world 2)chaos+chaos: you give up your humanity, desiring only power, forgoing everything else 3)chaos+law: you basically become a new god, with your own set of rules 4)neutral+neutral: you remain human, fighting against both god and the demons, to protect humanity 5)neutral+law: you decides to guide humanity as a new messiah, both making sure they follow god, but also protecting humanity from god's wrath. 6)neutral+chaos: you create your own empire, separate from the rest of the world, with your own rules. to me, this is the best way to go, give all alignments a clear direction, with the diference being, what you focus on. law would turn you into an angel, chaos into a demon, law+chaos would turn you into a god, and the neutral endings would be you remaining human but either following god, become a king, or going to war against both god and the demons to protect humanity.
SMT is based on Gnosticism and Lost Paradise where God is Evil, you can read it in the SMT creators interview, the persecution of Christianity isn't the inspiration of yahweh being bad
It would be more subversive and unique to NOT use a gnostic portrayal of God for once and just straight up make him powerful and good, but pointing out that not everyone is gonna follow him and his word so it's not a straightforward all benevolent law path. Plus, the insistence on Gnosticism and God as the final boss is technically rooted in Japanese nationalism to an extent which isn't exactly sympathetic.
@@twohooks3533 not nationalism but buddhism, Since do your own thing to reach enlightenment is good which is arbitrary/self refuting but is practiced there. There are also many JRPGs were God is good, try playing the DQ series
@@twohooks3533 And none of that crap is more aparent than the whole segment in SMT 2 where you free the japanese Amatsu gods, with Amaterasu going on with a whole rant about the "Hebrew Gods", Which, gets incredibly weird because... In a sidequest in Raidou 2, it is revealed that the Amatsu sided with YHVH to persecute the Kunitsu gods.
I dont think it ever goes far enough with the gnosticism if that is what they are trying to do as there is a true Gof in gnosticism but alot of the games dont really represent him they could have made him the true law rep with YHVH being the fake one
@@beanieboi7743 This comment reminds me of this incredibly pointless moment in SMT 2 in which it is revealed that Michael, Uriel and Raphael are worshipping a Fake YHVH... Whose personality is EXACTLY THE SAME as the real deal!
Law rarely EVER works for me because it basically tries to argue that removal of free will can be a good thing. Which it never EVER is. Regardless of safety or whatever kind of utopia may result.
My first main line SMT was IV and my first ending was Law (I did almost all CQ and yes, I told "I'm a human" to the lady in Ikebukuro) and I have to say, when I faced Isabeau near the end of the game and Merkabah told me to not listen to her because "she came in contact with manga" made me die inside so hard it wasn't even funny. It felt so weird how the angels never attempted talk to the humans in Tokio to make a new coccon like they did in the past. But some NPCs tell you that angels kidnapped children to take them there, so I guess they didn't really try in the first place...
[Pardon my English in advance] 40 full minutes?! Impressive. Was worth the wait. Also, what I think the alignment system lack is more than 3 choices with variations of the same sided ending - LAW/CHAOS/NEUTRAL - in between. Something new and well-written basically. (By the way, pluralism of opinions suck. So I'm full neutral mofo) P.S - I really liked that new Mandala System from SMTV, but purely from an idea's perspective. I mean, it's just baffling to me. Imagine that you are Lucifer. Free-spirited, an idealist, a rebel. You carved *YOUR* own way; fought against God's red right hand. And then boom! After defeating your arch-nemesis a certain piece of knowledge comes upon you, stating that your mere existence has been a lie - forged for you, made in a way to insure perpetuity of birth and destruction. (In a sense that if God loses now, he'll eventually win next time) *EMOTIONAL DAMAGE 100*
SMT NINE and Majin Tensei 2 have "Chaos-Dark/Light" and "Law-Dark/Light" variations to their endings. But those games are pretty obscure and barely come up in conversation, and on the case of SMT NINE. Its not only untranslated. But its gameplay is kind of a chore to get through, as well as being troublesome to emulate.
@@jasonblundelldobebussing Majin Tensei 2 is for the SNES and is a Fire Emblem-esque strategy RPG. With a fantranslation ready to go. NINE is a bit more complicated, as it was only released on the original Xbox. Its actually a midquel between SMT 1 and SMT 2. Has no fantranslation patch. With the only translation available for it being a Script Fantranslation leading to the True Neutral ending... With said fantranslation also having a fair share of errors from what I heard. And also the game having a lot of emulation-related bugs and glitches that, I do not know if they have been fixed yet.
I like the Freedom Ending in SMT III: Nocturne, even over the TDE, because I feel like it truly represents the essence of that old neutral flavor: A world for humanity, by humanity. The ending itself has you defy the Kagutsuchi cycle, and revive your friends and the world. It is essentially you taking your world back from the clutches of the great cycle of the conception established by law, and pushing back the opportunistic tides of the forces of chaos. You destroy the system, and take your world back. And while I do agree that there's that whole line about how Yahweh won't stand for the rebellion and will eventually come for your world, I like the extremely positive message the ending has: All of you seem to keep your memories of what happened. You've kept your powers as a half-demon, even if it no longer shows, and also, you keep your humanity. And like the greatest triumph of humanity, you now know that you can use this experience to further your world and move toward fixing the issues that you all had with it in the first place. The ending is one of Hope, not despair at some distant doom. Even Lucifer congratulates you, saying you made a similar choice to the one he did, long ago. He tells you to be vigilant and be ready, but he never tells you that it is all for naught. You defended your world and your people once, from everyone. You can do it again.
People always describe smt games as "games where you reshape the world into your liking" which is complete bull cause in reality your only really ever given the choice between 2 evil options and one ok option. Thats not "reshaping the world into your choosing" at all. People act like alignments in these games have the same level or nuance, depth, and complexity as say the factions in New Vegas when they really don't
Made a comment about this already, but that was a specific example. I think this general point deserves restating. I think that, while the Law/Chaos debate is generally genius as a concept and is fun to apply to tough subjects, in SMT they’re holding themselves back tying the sides so directly to YHVH and Lucifer respectively. They should mix things up a bit, swap YHVH and Lucifer out for other deities with similar, yet not identical ideologies. Or apply the debate without higher powers in the first place. I feel like, of all things, Tales of Berseria is a great example of how Law and Chaos can be applied without SMT’s normal constraints. There’s no picking sides, of course, but rather a straight up war between Chaos and Law that results in a Neutral ending. Velvet and Artorius would make for excellent Chaos and Law reps respectively. Especially Artorius: while not into the genocide as much, his ultimate plan is otherwise full Law, with legitimate reason to take away free will. Uh, spoilers, by the way.
One thing that I don't understand in this discussion is that the Law ending is seemingly linked to Christianity over and over again. It may be because I am agnostic, but I have never linked any of the Law gods (and especially not YHVH) to Christianity or the Christian god (regardless of denomination), but always as the representation of the old Gnostic Jewish god (who is, well, YHVH) that we mostly know from the Old Testament. And this is honestly how that god IS portrayed in these parts of the books, being a being that cared more about law and control than about the well-being of his followers (whether it being the near-sacrifice of Abraham's child, Moses' long and arduous journey, all the draconic laws and punishments his own followers were being put under etc). It feels to me like Tony wishes for a Christian interpretation of the Abrahamic god to replace the one SMT goes for and that is fair but clearly not what the creators draw their inspiration from. But I may be wrong.
thing is, YHVH is clearly meant to be inspired by the God of Christianity, who Himself is quite literally the same as God of Judaism. in general, people tend to see God as an authoritarian dictator while completely ignoring the many instances where He showed mercy.
@@christopherbravo1813 This is putting the cart before the horse. You can't say that, if A inspired B then criticising A means criticising B. There are massive and obvious differences in how both entities are depicted, alongside with lots of differences between all Christian denominations and sects.
To be completely honest, when I saw the connection to Nocturne, and especially with the fact you kind of 'default' to working with Bethel and the angels early on, I thought Law was going to be the "true" ending (in the same sense that Nocturne's true ending was TDE and smt4's was neutral) of smtv. I thought we were specifically going to fight against demifiend/satan because of the fact they destroy the world in order to kill God. Well... that wasn't what we got, and instead, every ending just felt... rushed and underdeveloped. It really shocks me how uninvolved the endings are in this game, and how disconnected the characters feel. I truly feel that the game being 3D with cutscenes meant less dialogue between characters. Smt4 was full of dialogue because it was just sprites talking to sprites with no lipsyncing or 3d models. There's barely any character to anyone. I literally forgot Miyazu Atsuta existed. Tao and Sahori's death was out of nowhere and barely impacted anything, and Tao just comes back like nothing happened. I don't feel a connection to this world like I did in smt4, I don't see the complex and sophisticated motivations of each side. It's just... what could have been. Ironic, really. I wanted another smt4, that was going to be a direct followup to Nocturne's lore, but alas, it was not meant to be.
I think that’s why - for me at least - the True Neutral ending felt like the True Ending. You basically retcon everything by erasing all gods and monsters from existence so your mortal self can live a normal life and possibly make friends with the background cast while the Nahobino exists separately. Since the Nahobino had basically no connections aside from Susano-o and Amanozako, it’s the only one where you’re not bearing the burden of the rushed “no really, we’re friends because we’re on the same side” kinda deal the other three routes had.
I once read in the comments section that SMT IV Apocalypse the DLC where you fight against Stephen. Each Messiah's personality are based on the route they choosed.
it does feel weird considering the alignments in the first game were basically political lines of Westernization vs Japanese nationalism. And V actually returns to that to an extent, but otherwise across the series in games that have alignment it's often more abstracted and removed from it's original context, there because it's expected of in the series instead of abandoned for something new. With Nocturne being the only real exception.
My good sir, why of course you find the endings of SMT games disappointing: You're a Law Player! I have played all of the main SMT games (well I haven't gotten around to 5 yet) choosing Chaos on my first playthrough, and I have always been extremely satisfied with the narrative and ending of each game. Seriously! Lol obviously you have a point if I can say that... I honestly find it hilarious and fascinating that there are so many people who play these games and try to favor Law the first time or always... Like SMT2 has a narrative that is completely about how Law is actually evil and Lucifer is the true friend of humanity, and a kind of freedom fighter standing up to an insane, inhuman, incomprehensible tyrant. And then Nocturne essentially removes those alignments... but still has a lavish optional quest that is considered the true ending of the game which is clearly an analog of what a "Chaos playthrough" would be, so it has a Chaos path and no Law path at all, as though there's no point in that narrative. I don't mean to be an asshole to those who prefer Law in these games, it's there for a reason and is a perfectly valid choice... But I do want to add, for anyone who doesn't realize it, that "Law" and "Chaos" in these games have meanings which are rather divergent from their typical associations in Western Culture, and nobody should be choosing "Law" because that's the "Good Guy" choice. That's super not what Law means in the SMT universe. Law here is closer to Lawful Evil than anything, and Chaos is often Chaotic Good or Neutral. That is a terribly way of describing it, but it basically gets the message across.
i disagree that chaos is the good ending, chaos is, well, chaos, its a free for all, which would translate into a might is right. so it would just be a matter of time before "humanity's freedom" would become either, slavery towards whatever demon is the new ruler, or anihilation because someone strong came around and decided he was hungry for some human meat today.
@@marcosdheleno Kinda funny, as there are a few examples of Chaos endings that completely lack the cynical "EVERY MAN/DEMON FOR THEMSELVES!!!"-mentality. Such as the Chaos ending in SMT 2. And the Good Overlord path in Devil Survivor Overclocked. ...And I guess the Chaos path in Raidou 2. (Though in this particular game, the Alignments dont make that much of a difference.)
@@kuraux56s59 smt 2 's chaos ending is kinda wholesome with lucifer and the héroes going to rebuild society Then again smt 2 lucifer is incredibly chill
Amazing video! On the personal side i also come from a christian family and i can relate a lot to Virigillia and her familie's way of being christian, my friends and family act exactly the same. Noe on the actual topic even i i admit that all the abrahamic characters make me a bit biased towards law i do agree in most of the games it is portrayed as the worst outcome. I understand they dont mean to portray actual Christianity as evil but i really wish they tried to make law more nuanced for once, also i kinda dislike when the endings were you destroy all demons are treated as good, what abot all the demon buddies i made along the way? I don't want to delete my jack frost when i could hang out with him while wearing matching t shirts, i guess thats why i like the bonds ending in apocalypse so much, even if that games writing was lacking at parts i can really get behind collaborating and joining hands for a better future!
Neutral is best boy, Law is OVER ARCHING CONTROL, Chaos is just trying to do its thing but such a lack of order allows those who'd be peaceful and possibly helpful to people's future as a whole to be crushed under someone who's strongest and sees the positive moving toward as a loss of their power.
It's pretty funny when I was playing through Devil Survivor 1 Overclocked and Amane was introduced as an obvious law representative I spent the whole game wondering when the shoe would drop like it did in SMT4's Law route. Never happened, probably the best outcome for Law in all of the SMT games up to this point in terms of overall outcome.
Just an important historical correction to Lady Virgilia's segment: Oda Nobunaga, Toyotomi Hideyoshi, and Tokugawa Ieyasu indeed all lived contemporaneously, but it's simply not true that they formed a "coalition". Oda Nobunaga was Hideyoshi's lord and Ieyasu's dominant ally. It was Nobunaga specifically who first aimed to unify Japan. But then Nobunaga was assassinated and Hideyoshi succeeded him and eventually took power. It was only after Hideyoshi died that Ieyasu stepped up to take leadership against Hideyoshi's retainers, only then establishing the Tokugawa Shogunate that would definitively end the Sengoku Jidai and rule a unified Japan for several hundred years.
While I appreciate the work you put into the video, you missed all the thematic subtext in the entire series. The endings don’t make sense outside of their thematic context. The commentary of the games is completely lost without the thematic subtext. Your description of SMTI, II, IV, and V’s endings miss the point entirely. I’m sorry but that’s just the truth.
"this has to stop" "this series needs to do better" "Have/need" I find to be the wrong wording and mentality. This makes SMT look it's doing some huge social disservice. They don't "need" to do anything. "I want to every alignment to be appealing" is actually what you're looking for, in my understanding. In that point, although nice, I argue some people like bad endings. To present every alignment in a good light doesn't necessarily improve the games.
