Erik, OK, there is FILL PRESSURE and then there is REGULATED PRESSURE. The FILL PRESSURE is the max fill pressure recommended to go into the guns tank. It tells you somewhere on the side of the gun and also in the instruction manual. So, 250 bar (3625 psi) or 300 bar (4350 psi) or 310 bar (4500 psi). The REGULATED pressure is the pressure the regulator puts at the pellet. Regulated pressure is what pushes the projectile down the barrel and also gives you consistency and your speeds (fps) shot to shot. Your regulator is normally adjustable and you'd have to read the instructions on adjusting it CORRECTLY. You never want to shoot your gun down past the REGULATED pressure. For instance, your gun should fill to 250 bar which is 3625 psi. Your regulator is set to 150 bar which is 2175 psi on that gun. This gives you your speed and shot count. Now, the gun needs to be chronied as well to see how much speed your pushing. Most folks shoot pellets anywhere from 860 FPS up to about 950 fps. Some guns more. But, we are looking accuracy and not all out speed. PELLETS DO NOT LIKE TOO MUCH SPEED (fps). So now at this point, total tuning is necessary as well as it being time for you gather info on different settings. Lots of tuning, lots of time, lots of pellets and lots of air will go into this. When its all said and done, you should be able to shoot pellets into the same hole at 50 yrds and have a speed between the numbers i listed above and you should be able to do for about 40+ shots per fill. PER FILL means, you fill the gun up to 250 bar, then shoot it until your tank gets down to the REG pressure setting meaning, you shoot your gun from 250 bar, down to 150 bar (or what ever is OPTIMUM). 150 bar is just where the gun is set from the factory but, that guns reg is adjustable. Also, you have a slew of pellets to test. There are soooooo many in 25 cal available. So many weights and so many namebrands. Yes, JSB is the best but, you might have luck with others names and weights too. Like JSB 25.39 gr pellets, etc, etc, etc. Also, another thing no one has told you is, airguns are HOLD SENSITIVE. Either FIRM to the shoulder or LOOSE. You have to figure out which. Fill your gun up to 250 bar and shoot 1 5-shot group using a firm hold then repeat the same thing with a loose hold. Every once in a while, you get one that is not. But again, you gotta figure that out. Well, that's it for now......
That’s a lot of info and seems a little over complicated for someone shooting air rifle for the first time. I trust your information and know nothing about this type of air rifle. I know 10m competition guns from FWB, Ans and Walther. With those I know they are very dependent on matching the ammo to the gun. Have never found that any premium brand is better than next. Have always been able to get 1 hole groups that will hold the pellet by the skirt with a 10 shot group. Different lot of same pellet might cloverleaf. My one hole group my cloverleaf in a teammates gun. Although we chronograph almost never mess with adjusting pressures unless there is an issue with the gun. Of course there is a point in cylinder pressure where it drops off quickly and is no longer accurate. Our guns shoot around 650 and we get 125-150 rounds. The one thing I know about Olympic style air rifles that I think would be universal is that matching ammo to your rifle is the first step and before that I would be surprised if anything else matters. If this isn’t universal across other types of high end airguns I would love to hear from your experience.
@@kerrymorris1892 it's all about perception. Social media is a source for information. It's permanently on his page to go back and check when he needs it. One of the things I listed was his problem. He wasn't filling his gun high enough. I'll keep it more simple next time. Thanks
@@Tofazfou It’s been a few days and without re-reading all the posts I don’t think I meant for you to keep it more simple or any criticism at all. I think my main point was that if you haven’t matched the pellet to the rifle, any next step is almost pointless.
@@kerrymorris1892mr cortina is a long range shooter, in his application of airrifles and pellets, tuning comes into play because we want a stable flight throughout the 100m. At the speed you’re mentioning and the distance mr Cortina is shooting the pellet will drop too much and lose stable flight. The rifle is tuned to find a speed which the pellet likes but also to find a propulsion of air that ends before or right when the pellet leaves the barrel because we don’t want to have excess air being warped out of the barrel disturbing the pellet when it leaves the barrel. OP wasn’t overcomplicating things at all. You’re shooting superlight wadcutters at 10m, these two disciplines aren’t comparable in the slightest…
Erik, the Reg pressure on a .25 RAW is set at about 155bar, so you need to fill to 250 and don’t shoot it below 155bar. It should one at 50yards even without a barrel tuner. You will get about 50 shots from a 250 bar fill, also count to 10 between each shot to allow the regulator settle, it’s not a powder burner, but one of the best air rifles ever built, it’s based on a Theoben Rapid7 which I know inside out I have 7 of them
Eric,,I've had my Raw TM1000.177 sub 12 foot pound,for about 8 years now,,around 19,000 rounds thru it,,,,it is just as good as the day I bought it,,just as accurate,,just as fabulous,just as BEAUTIFUL,,,many thanks to Martin & Sandra and all the crew down there inthe hills and hollows of the great state of Tennesse.
Erik, I have had a 22 cal Air Venturi Avenger for a little over a year. Its tank is rated for 4,351 psi (300 bar). There are two gauges on it, one displaying the tank pressure and the other displaying the regulated pressure. I fill mine from a scuba tank with a full tank pressure of 3,000 psi (207 bar). One reason the 22 cal was chosen over 25 cal, was the number of shots before refilling. Since the scuba tank pressure is lower than the max rifle tank rating, the pressure regulator is backed down for a speed about 100 ft per second less than factory settings. This allows for more shots per fill. Running around 800 fps, it will fully penetrate 3/4 inch plywood or 1 inch pine board at 10 yards. For small pest hunting that is more than sufficient. You may wish to chronograph your pellets to see what the deviation is, as the tank pressure drops. When the tank pressure gets close to the regulated pressure, you will probably start to experience speed variations. On the Avenger, I try to keep the tank pressure at least 200 psi above the regulated pressure.
Airgun is soo difficult to perfectly tune the way we want it to be. But that's the beauty of an Airgun tuning. When you finally get the the balance between FPS & pellets/slug weight, and get the right amount of FPE and accuracy, that's when we get an immesurable happiness.
I’ve had mine, in .25, for 3-4 years (I bought it the month it was available, so whenever that was 😅). I’m always playing with it. Just dropped it into a Buck Rail stock. Getting ready to go with a bottle conversion. I think I’m gonna polish the barrel when I do that. Maybe upgrade my scope. So I’ll have to retune it again 🤪
The tank has max fill pressure printed on it somewhere normally . Then the rifle should have two gauges (regulated) one close to tank should be tank . Next one should be regulated pressure . Tanks topically fill 230 , 250 , or 300 bar fill . Try checking pressure after each mag for awhile to see how many shots you get and refill before it goes below regulator pressure . Tunning can be a challenging. Lots of RU-vidrs (champion air marksman)that can offer best advise possible . Listen to them all but believe in the target ...and what you find works for you . They all teach with slightly different explanation , not good or bad just different .
This airgun should be shooting a single hole group at 25 yards and a 1/2" to sub 1/2" group at 50. Running certain pellets at specific velocities is critical to accuracy in airguns. There will be a pellet the rifle likes more than others, however the tuner may help squeeze out accuracy with pellets the rifle does not favor. Filling over 3000psi is dependent on if the regulator can run properly at higher pressures. Sure it will still shoot at higher pressures but velocities can be low or inconsistent and rise when you are shooting at lower pressures (the regulator controls your velocity over an entire fill). Most pcp airguns fill to 3000psi no problem, newer ones can fill higher, check with the manufacturer and then test with 3000 and up to the recommended max fill pressure. Tuning an air rifle is a bit of an art and I would highly suggest using a chrony and shooting from fill pressure to when it "falls off" the regulator and you start seeing the velocities drop significantly. I got into airguns about 15 years ago thinking it would be less work than reloading, its not if you want high level accuracy or if you compete. I shoot field target competitively and we zoom in to 50x when shooting at 10 yard targets all day long. Finding a 10 yard target when zoomed all the way in can be tricky though... Welcome to the airgun rabbit hole Erik!
One other thing Eric, set your tuner to zero, tune for the correct velocity for your pellet first, then play with your tuner. And for what you want to do a heavier pellet is better. 33 grain to start. You might even try Zan slugs if your barrel is designed for slugs. You can get Zan slugs from Utah Airguns. Zan slugs come in 33 and 38 grain.
Great video and beautiful rifle. I sold my HM1000x .22 (sub minute rifle), to pickup a HM1000x .35. Love RAW's reliability and quality. I've got the 700cc bottle on the .35 and just ordered the MPA chassis. 35 is a little hold sensitive but I get 2 minute groups consistently with my shooting. Hoping the MPA chassis will help bring that minute of angle down. ** shooting only pellets
Great video as always 👍🏻I'm an airgun benchrest shooter, 50 meter wrabf, I highly suggest you to try wrabf 50 meter/yard target ,its gonna be fun ,and by the way, nothing can be stable as a coax front rest,bipods and sandbags cause poi shifts,and for the zeroing and tuner adjustment, indoor range is best way to go ,airgun projectiles are extremely sensitive to slightlest changes in wind
Glad to see you getting something to practice with at home. PCP airguns do have a learning curve though. My experience with PCP airguns shooting Diablo pellets always starts with tuning the rifle using the regulator adjusted to the pellet usually around 840 to 880 fps. Gonna need a chronograph. If the “harmonics” are off I then adjust hammer as needed and readjust regulator as needed. Each manufacture has there own tuning adjustments for regulator, hammer, and often orifice size. Only after all that (which can take a couple full tins of pellets) would I even consider touching a barrel tuner. Fill your bottle on the gun to its max pressure SLOWLY and make sure it is cooled down before shooting again as quick filling heats the air above ambient significantly and can throw off accuracy. Stop shooting before the bottle drops off the regulator pressure which on that rifle is probably around 70 shots.
what is amazing is that you can seen the pellet flight path about 1.4 mils above the impact, and that looks like about how much he adjusted the scope from 25 yards to 50 yards.
Keeping the pressure consistent at all times seems like the key to consistency. Just the same as a consistant powder charge. For accuracy testing I would recharge the tank every 3~5 shots, or get a higher capacity tank.
There should be absolutely no need to recharge after 3-5 shots. Any decent PCP air rifle has a pressure regulator (the working shot pressure is much less than the maximum tank pressure).
Eric, I don’t shoot an Air Weapons rifle, and more familiar with FX but I know that’s a quality top-tier Rifle at 50 yards it should be stacking them on top of each other. Somethings wrong it needs tuning.
It is very cool to see how the tuner affects the projectiles impact. Air rifle barrels always have some break-in period, but I have shot airguns straight out of the box and they shot amazing. Can't wait to see you get that rig tuned and I hope to see some slugs coming out of that muzzle. Keep up the good fight. (P.S. you definitely want to fill to 250 bar, 3626psi.)
Definitely need to keep the tank pressure above the regulator setting to find any consistency with your velocity. If it drops below each shot will start dropping in velocity.
I think I’ll stick to building 22lr here in my shop. The air guns look fun but way to many variables for me. Thanks for sharing though By the way, I have a tuner idea for you if you care to hear about it. I’ve built NBRSA world record breaking rifles . IBS as well. I have an idea that stems from how machinery vibrations are dampened. I only have manual machines so I’m limited a bit as to what I can build.
Depends on the power I want behind the pellet then I get 20 to 30 shots in my window of accuracy before my impact points begin dropping below what I accept. It ain’t gunpowder man, air pressure is important!
I think that it is also worth mentioning that you need to work on tuning the gun with air pressures, hammer spring (power adjuster) and pellets, then if you are really adventurous seating depth with adjustable pellet probe and different designs of pellet probe. Then after all that use your barrel tuner. I have had literally a thousand rounds down the barrel of some air rifles before I found it’s true “tune” for accuracy.
Erik you need to fill the tank all the way up make sure the reg pressure is corect dont worry about the tuner untill the gun is tuned then wait untill its calm ...air guns are a different breed than what your used to ...gun may not like the pellets exact kings allways shoot better for me than heavys jsb usually shoot good its all tuning and testing right u your alley your gonna love it when you get it worked out ....
I have watched lots of videos on high end PCP type airguns which have focused on their incredible accuracy at distance. I think this is the first which has actually shown how frustrating it can be, or at least, has shown that there is a journey that has to be travelled, before you get the gun dialled in to that finished product. Should I decide to get one of these, I am now better prepared by watching this first video. I look forward to seeing how this journey progresses. Well done for not just showing the best groups at each distance.
Oh yeah…especially if you’re a powder shooter. But once you get these dialed in they become an obsession. I started out with a .25 Gauntlet, then a .25 Avenger, then a .30 cal semi AEA, and now I’m looking at another .30 . They’re frustrating at times. They can be very ammo picky. Pressure sensitive. They can also be taken out of their normal parameters with the tuning you do, and they can either really rock when you do that or they can roll you. 😂. Hammer spring tensioning, hammer, trigger adjusting/polishing, reg adjustments, harmonic stabilizers, etc etc.
He didn't read any of the instruction manual!!!!!!!!!!!!! These air rifles are tuned from the manufacturer to shoot sub MOA right outta the box! By the end of the video he figured out what he should've known before putting a scope on it. Scary bcuz, with his firearms experience reading the manual is the 1st thing you should always do. He made a Lamborghini look awful bcuz he essentially raced it in 1st gear all the way to the finish line! LMAO, SMH
Eric your bottle should handle 300 bar then your reg pressure should be lower. During testing i recommend tether from your fill bottle. Run the hose open valve and leave it connected. You may have to also play with reg pressure but i would not dial it in until you try what is factoey set. This has been my method on Airforce, Fx Wildcat, Fx Impacts even Benjamin Marauders and Akelas. I always tether while testing to minimize issues with pressure loss. Also wait a few seconds between shots to allow the regulator or if it has 2 like my impact does to settle down. Once you start shooting and your bottle pressure drops below your reg pressure consistency goes out the window and everyshot will change that is why i tether during testing and dialing in my shots.
Great stuff. Ran off the regulator.....i always shoot a bunch over a chrony with a new gun to get to know it. Max fill pressure should be on the gun somewhere . Typically 3000psi or 4500 psi . Definitely a need to know.
Eric,,,those low shots are resulting from a lack of pressurized air ,,your bottle being of a lower pressure than the regulator setting,,,,set the bottle pressure up to 2900 psi. and you are good to go,go,,go!!
Air rifles are fun, just like reloading for centerfire, you need to try different pellets and pellet weights for optimal results. Also take note of the impacts with different pressure, might be a sweet spot in there.
I have never shot an Raw rifle but shoot FX and other makes. You should have two gauges on you air tank with one showing regulator pressure and the other the bottle pressure. Most carbon fiber bottles fill to 250 bar. You then never shoot your rifle under the set regulator pressure. What caliber and weight of pellets or slugs are you shooting. Pellets like to be shot between 850 to 950 fps. They are wind stabilized by the skirt and if shot too fast will cork screw. You need to shoot a good brand of pellets with JSB pellets being a good place to start. Pellets usually shoot well without the need for a tuner but slugs are a different story. The FX tuners I use only have to be turned less that an 16th of an revolution to have an effect on group size. I usually find somewhere within one full revolution the accuracy node for slugs. Also for slugs you need to find the best diameter to shoot well in your barrel and run them between 900 and 1000 fps. Pellet barrel are choked and slug barrels usually are not. I would call your dealers for some of this information.
Erik the gun bottle fills to 250 or 300bar. You need to have at least that much pressure in your fill tank. The regulator does not need to be set higher than 130 for pellets. Don’t shoot the gun when the gun bottle pressure drop below the set pressure of the regulator. The closer the bottle pressure gets the harder the regulator has to work to maintain steady pressure. The regulator and hammer spring work together, lower hammer spring settings with a lower regulator pressure. Get your chronograph out with JSB match kings you’ll see the best accuracy usually between 880-920fps. Those Diablo pellets don’t have the shape to hold steady when you start touching 950+ fps. I’m an engineer and a forum member if ever you need anything. I applied everything I learned from you with fire arms to air gun shooting. It was painful to watch you shooting an airgun for the first time.
You need to try different weights of JSB and H&N pellets. Pelletgauge makes a tool to measure the head of the pellets, because they vary and it matters. Diabolo pellets are the only game in town for anything over 25 yards. Pellets like to run between 820-880 generally. Nielson makes many different weights and diameter’s of slugs. Find the diameter and weight the gun likes, and shoot them.
You're learning, I can see from the comments that some good advice out there, get a chronograph on it soon so you can see that drop in speed and then refill the airtank. Listen to the gun it will talk to you.
some pellets are very nice at 25 meters but very bad at 40 meters , and lately the pellets industry may be do short cuts in this post covid times , other thing is the pression my h100 t work's with 200 bars and some new rifles work's at 250 , nice to see the all issues in air rifle world, good work and keep trying ...
I went with the FX Impact M3. It has a power plenum that helps a lot when the main bottle gets low on pressure. No impact shift when the bottle gets low. That’s why I didn’t go with the AF.
Hi, all pcp’s have a plenum. The one on the impact happens to be quite large and they marketed it as a ‘power plenum’ but that doesn’t mean you should shoot your main tank below the pressure of your 2nd regulator… hope this helps
Hey Eric. Welcome to the rabbit hole of high pressure airguns 😆. Cedric (tofas4u) is one of the best guys you'll ever speak to on these rifles. He is a wealth of knowledge along with many other great shooters out there. A lot of the powder burner knowledge you have can be used here and some things will be totally new. Once you start shooting these more you will pick up a lot of info. If you get into slug shooting you will be impressed at longer range stuff. The Airforce guns are a Great platform. It's not uncommon to see 1 moa 5 shot groups at 300 yards. We don't have the speed like the center fire guys so wind, altitude, and humidity affect us more past 300. Slugs are the way to go though. Good to see you getting into air brother. Welcome to the club 👌
I like the larger caliber air rifles for close range dog critter issues. Most times the coyote can walk away after a point blank strike. I have never thought of using an air rifle for extreme accuracy purposes. If the 22LR didn't teach you the problems with no real bullet coefficient, it is truly a close your eyes caliber.
Max fill 200 bar. If the Gun is not regulated it will have a power curve. Low velocity when the pressure is high and low. You need to monitor velocity.
Eric, I have had my RAW for about 6 years. I shoot JSB 33.9's, and slugs sometimes. JSB's by the sleeve. Also try both JSB pellets, the 1's and the 2's. What fps are you shooting? My gun likes 880fps. It is consistant for about 50 shots. I "ONLY" use FFP scopes. My friends who did not use FFP, soon changed. Good luck. I was wtiting and watching the video. I fill my gun to 230 bar, EVERY FILL.
Sounds like your power is too high for the weight pellet you are using. Try a 33 grain pellet or turn down your power if your rifle has that feature. Ideally your velocity should be between 830 fps - 920 fps no higher when shooting pellets for best accuracy.
It looked to me that the tuner set at 50 was the one to use, the drop in air pressure was what gave it that vertical. Air pressure is the biggest thing to watch, any reduction there are like reducing the grain weight of your powder charge.
Eric, you need to talk to Ted Beir in Wisconsin. Loving this as I’m from the U.K. we love air rifles. Seriously talk to Ted Bier, Utube, Teds Hold Over. Ex Arizona Bench rest champion. This would be a brilliant Pod Cast.
figur out how many mag fulls you can shoot before it falls off the reg lets say 3 mags shoot three mags and refill easiest way ive found to keep up with it
If that rifle has a "top hat" style valve do some research about tuning that. You can setup that style valve to use over pressure in the tank to slam the valve closed early giving you say 950 fps for your first few shots. As the air bleeds off the valve can stay open longer which gives you a small velocity climb to say 980. Then as pressure bleeds off even further the velocity will drop again slightly with each shot, until you get back to your original velocity. This gives you a bell curve of velocity if you graph it, nearly doubling the number of shots you can get out of one fill and keep the same ES.
These groups would piss me of... My Weihrauch HW 100 did hit almost hole in hole out of the box, although in Germany the pellets did just 175 m/s in .177.
First groups were way better! You'll figure it out! There should be a way to regulate air for the shot, it will give you the same pressure for longer until the point that your tank starts getting to low 😉
Does it have a chart referencing air pressure in the Owner’s manual? Erik, are you one of those guys that puts things together without reading directions?😂😂😂
@@tripleceaswait- what guy reads the manual? That is kinda cheating? She brought something home recently, and while I was assembling it She Who Must Be Obeyed wanted to know if I wanted the directions…to which I responded “ if I need directions, then they screwed it up “. True that!😂
You need to talk with your new buddy WhoTeeWho. He has been doing air rifles for a long time. Might have a few tips that would help figure it out. I have not done many tank type air rifles, but the one that I did shoot air pressure was the key. Had to find the pressure that you start losing elevation, and either adjust elevation or refill the tank when you hit that threshold. Thanks for the video.
LOOK TO THE REGULATOR MODIFICATION, HAMMER BOUNCE….BLAH BLAH STRAP IN GET READY. ID ALSO RECOMMEND GOING STRAIGHT NITROGEN RIGHT OUT OF THE GATE….GET A 6K BOTTLE AND A “NINJA” REGULATOR. SAVE YOURSELF ALL THE VARIABLES OF NOT USING AN INER GAS. TRANSLATES DIRECTLY TO CENTERFIRE IN TERMS OF STABILITY IN YOUR SOURCE OF PRESSURE
At 150 bar? That means all shots that day were not regulated, not bad groups of you take that into consideration but fill to 250 bar and shoot down the 150/155 bar. Will be a lot, a lot better.
I see future EC new magazine design so the scope is lower. Maybe a sub tank to regulate pressure so its consistent. Does the tank rigidity change with air pressure causing inconsistent harmonics so many things to innovate.
Yea u can see there Arching in by the video, and for such a short distance? If u get your pressures right it just might be the barrel hates those pellets, just like powder bullets, try some different ammos??!!! Just like .22’s Long rifles may like one bullet over another’s 🤔🤔🤔🤔
Do you feel that you have as much “control” over the pellets, as you do bullets? Are the shots repeatable and controllable? There is no seating, or loading to add effect to the pellet, so can you in some way control the pellet.
What is going on around the 1:34 mark of the video? The 3rd shot (well technically 4th) anyone else notice that? Is there a glitch in the editing?? Actually noticed it a few more times.
Most airguns are regulated and even the unregulated ones are pretty consistent throughout the fill when tuned correctly. In a regulated airgun you can shoot between 25 and 100 shots (depending on the caliber and tank size) with sub 10fps shot velocity variation (typically velocities are between 750fps and 930fps) across the fill. Often the "higher" velocities are found in the middle of a fill (or shot curve) when the balance between tank pressure and regulator pressure is optimal. The better the tune the less the tank pressure matters, also help to have a good regulator.
Typical ISSF air rifles and air pistols have air cylinders tthat go up to 200bar some even higher. Have a look at Styer, Anschutz, Walther, Pardini, etc.
Welcome to high power air rifles. Your Raw is not working well at the mo. A chrono is your friend when setting up a new rifle. As said below tune the rifle for best accuracy by adjusting the fps to suit the pellet. Then tweak the tuner to see if the accuracy can be improved a smidge. Once you go off the reg the accuracy can do strange things, its not unknown for the fps to rise then fall if the systems not balanced. Each type of pellet and barrel will have its window of best speed and accuracy Run too fast and the pellet is likely to spiral in flight. When you get a good tin of pellets buy as many as you can of that batch.
I think the LabRadar would help here. Can't help but wonder if a spring powered rifle might be more accurate. (They are hard on some scopes though with the reverse recoil.)
Spring powered rifles don't come close in accuracy. They are inherently inaccurate due to the design. You have a hinge between the barrel and the main body of the weapon where the scope is mounted. Any movement in that hinge affects targeting. They also have a forward impulse instead of rearward recoil. That shock is notorious for eating up even high-end rifle scopes. Special scopes are made for springers.
LL-pd9dg is mostly correct, however break barrels are not inherently inaccurate due to the barrel being on a hinge. I shoot competitively with springer shooter (they are in a different class) and they can pretty much hang with the pcp scores when set up correctly (but setting them up is not easy as they tend to shoot themselves out of optimal setup). I shot 'against' one several weeks ago and on day one the shooter was only one or two shots behind and I had only missed two shots out of 52. There were plenty pcp shooters who missed more than the springer shooter. Springers are also influenced by they way you hold them, pcps typically do not care how they are held. Check out the Wiscombe springer design, it has pistons that go in two different direction so there is no recoil. Shooting a springer for accuracy/competition is an art.
sorting pellet's helps. they will vary by over a grain. and i shoot 180 bar for 25cal 33.95gr JSB to achieve 920-930fps I believe like .6 bc for ranging.
