Should Calvinism Be Kicked Out of the SBC? 

Psalm or hymn singing?

PRAISE GOD!!!! May he be glorified and you both grow in spiritual wisdom and understanding, knowledge and grace!!! ALL GLORY TO GOD Proclaim Christ the KING OF KINGS!!! Will be praying God brings you to worship his as a family in corporate worship

Yes. I consider myself non-denominational. All the people I follow on media are Reformed/ Calvinist.

Love that for ya, 1689 all the way!

Go to church every week, even if its not a perfect church. I love that you are returning, but brother... I have learned a lot through the humble Christian love of many who know nothing of theology! Do not let the quest for 'perfect' theology starve you of fellowship with other believers.

There was a hushed giggle throughout the room when the guy made his motion. This is a settled issue in the SBC. Everything will be A-Ok.

Whenever difficult questions are raised and Calvinists avoid the questions, resort to ad hominem attacks, and employ defense mechanisms to escape the pressure of the situation... this appears to be cognitive dissonance, so investigation should take place in such cases as we are all suceptible to error and deceptions. I can't tell you how many pastors took 12 or 15 years of study before realizing that Calvinism can't be consistent if applied. The theology is appealing in many ways but can't seem to withstand tough scrutiny of total depravity. Augustine appears to have relied significantly on Gnostic teaching to formulate total depravity rather than Scripture. The idea that Jesus had to teach in parables so blind men wouldn't see is ridiculous. The idea that God exhaustively determines some infants to go to Hell does not fit the loving character of God taught in the Bible. I was a Calvinist for 20 years until I honestly considered the questions being asked of Calvinists and when I saw Piper and MacArthur avoiding them.... that really got my attention and prompted more investigation because this surely must have just been some mistake. It's no mistake. They teach with authority but examination exposes the holes in the theology. You can't be a 3 point Calvinist and call yourself consistent. Your heart and mind may say anything, but being consistent within a theology like Calvinism offers very little wiggle room. Seek the truth no matter how inconvenient it may be for you. Ask tough questions, and realize how easily we are deceived and misled. The Bible says to rebuke with gentleness lest we be caught up in the same sins... which were rooted in pride. Pride brings rudeness, unloving, and unkind rhetoric which I am tempted to employ every day... because I struggle with pride myself. Seek the truth and you will find it.

@@sonnyh9774 I’m sorry that you have that perception of Calvinists and I thank you for responding to my comment. I hate Ad Hominem so I will not use it. Could I please hear the questions you were referring to? The only objection I saw was on total depravity. I don’t need or want to use Gnostic texts to prove it so I won’t. Two passages I want you to look at is Romans 3:10-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:21-22. These two passages directly state that humankind are spiritually dead from birth and not able to do good, especially Romans 3:18 which says “there is no fear of God before their eyes.” How can we fear God and have a saving knowledge of God (which I assume you think is a righteous act) if we can’t fear Him or do good without Him? I would love to provide more scripture for any of the other points and again thank you for reaching out to me and challenging my theological viewpoint, I sincerely hope that after this conversation both of us come out strengthened in our faith and in our theological viewpoints!

@@tristinbihn9691 Thank you for your thoughtful reply. Ad hominems do not usually bother me unless my wife uses them, so if you do use them .... I appreciate altruistic and abhorrent alliteration ... a lot. Romans 3 should be interpreted in light of Psalms 14 and 53 as Paul most likely did... which is in the context of the rebellious musings of the fool and does not appear to imply that this applies to the inability of everyone as the common Calvinist applies it.... or appears to misapply it. These passages can clearly be interpreted differently and appears from a Calvinist perspective to be an eisegetical interpretation. So, I don't believe it means what you think it does. The Bible encourages us to seek the Lord in all these passages and implies we have the ability to seek Him: “And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, that they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us,” - Acts 17:26-27 “Seek the Lord while he may be found; call upon him while he is near; let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the Lord, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.” -Isaiah 55:6-7 “Seek the Lord, all you humble of the land, who do his just commands; seek righteousness; seek humility; perhaps you may be hidden on the day of the anger of the Lord.” -Zephaniah 2:3 “And he did evil, for he did not set his heart to seek the Lord.” -2 Chronicles 12:14 “Fill their faces with shame, that they may seek your name, O Lord.” -Psalms 83:16 “Then Jehoshaphat was afraid and set his face to seek the Lord, and proclaimed a fast throughout all Judah.” -2 Chronicles 20:3 “For all the nations of the world seek after these things, and your Father knows that you need them. Instead, seek his kingdom, and these things will be added to you.” -Luke 12:30-31 “He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.” -Romans 2:6-8 “And those who know your name put their trust in you, for you, O Lord, have not forsaken those who seek you.” -Psalms 9:10 “And those who had set their hearts to seek the Lord God of Israel came after them from all the tribes of Israel to Jerusalem to sacrifice to the Lord, the God of their fathers.” -2 Chronicles 11:16 Pardon me while I go enjoy some organic grassfed beef... but there do not appear to be any clear Biblical passages teaching total inability. As a Calvinist for 20 years, I was mesmerized and enchanted by the grey passages... that appeared clear, but I ignored the other possible interpretations because it didn't fit my narrative or the narrative of my circle of friends.... my echo chamber. (I personally like echo chambers because I get a feeling of security, but now I try to do things I don't like .... like cold showers, intense exercise, keto and intermittant fasting.... because it's the right thing to do.) Jesus wept over Jerusalem because she didn't respond to His drawing. Why would Jesus be upset with God's perfect, sovereign will and plan? Why would Jesus be upset if He planned for it to happen? "Mystery, mystery" is the answer from Piper and MacArthur .... if you ask a Calvinist, but it is plausible and makes very good sense if God loves us enough to give us a limited free will choice... He does not force us to love Him or accept Him. We aren't robots, and God doesn't hate some of us before the world began and determine us to Hell. God does hate the nations that came from Edom/Esau in context of the Old Testament, and God does love the line of Christ that runs through Jacob. This life isn't a gross and perverse play written by a narcissistic and maniacal Zeus-like god. God doesn't send babies to Hell for His good pleasure. God knows all things, but I can't confidently explain how He might look into time while being outside of and within it. Food's ready.

@@sonnyh9774 thank you so much for taking time out of your day to respond to my post! I really appreciate how you use a lot of scripture to back up your opinions. So firstly I think that Paul is talking about the whole world. I grant you that Psalm 14 is talking about the fool who says there is no God, so atheists. But the verses before and after 3:10-18 clearly state that it applies to Jews, Greeks, and the entire world. “What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin,” ‭‭Romans‬ ‭3‬:‭9‬ ‭ESV‬‬ “Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.” ‭‭Romans‬ ‭3‬:‭19‬-‭20‬ ‭ESV‬‬ Also, of course we have free will!!! The only caveat is that I think we’re DEAD in our sins. “For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.” ‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15‬:‭21‬-‭22‬ ‭ESV‬ We have free will to make decisions on things like what to have for dinner. This is because God is not the author of sin. If he made us sin, then we wouldn’t be guilty of it. Our wills are so depraved that we simply cannot decide to follow Christ by ourselves. However, God wants some of us to be saved so he must intervene and predestine some to be saved. This is not of our will but the will of our Heavenly Father. “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,” ‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭1‬:‭3‬-‭7‬ ‭ESV‬‬ “Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the sake of the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth, which accords with godliness, in hope of eternal life, which God, who never lies, promised before the ages began and at the proper time manifested in his word through the preaching with which I have been entrusted by the command of God our Savior;” ‭‭Titus‬ ‭1‬:‭1‬-‭3‬ ‭ESV‬‬ “And I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people, so extremely zealous was I for the traditions of my fathers. But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son to me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with anyone;” ‭‭Galatians‬ ‭1‬:‭14‬-‭16‬ ‭ESV‬‬ Which goes along with ““Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”” ‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭1‬:‭5‬ ‭ESV‬‬ “What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.” ‭‭Romans‬ ‭9‬:‭14‬-‭18‬ ESV Scripture also says that some world events are predetermined by him as well. “for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.” ‭‭Acts‬ ‭4‬:‭27‬-‭28‬ ‭ESV‬‬ We are not robots at all we are able to freely decide almost everything. Scripture only says that he predestines salvation and certain events. By what standard does he predestine or which events? I’m not sure but based on these passages we can easily assume that it does happen.

Don't worry, they won't. Nothing can disturb the peace the saints enjoy in heaven.

God wants all men to be saved first Timothy 2:4, second peter 3:9! God, predestines groups or plurals only, never individuals. Ephesians 1 -2 points: “ us and we” are pre-destined never “you and I“! And 11 times in 11 verses from 3-14 you have to remain “in Christ“ (in him, in whom) to be predestined! Romans 9:1-3 Paul is talking about the nation of Israel, all the way to the end of chapter 11 ! So, “Jacob, I loved, Esau I hated“ is genesis 25:23 “there are two nations in your womb“! It’s talking about ‘Nations,’ not individuals in the whole context of those three chapters! Stop taking it out of context, along with Ephesians 1! Of course, we have the story of Jacob and Esau and how Esau despised his birthright ! So God truly does love all people, he truly did make hell for the devil and his angels just as Matthew 25:41 says ! Even the 42 youths, mauled by the 2 bears, was because they mocked Elijah‘s rapture, a.k.a. the resurrection , they were saying “go on up Baldy “ ; and ALL their prophets just recently Were killed by Elijah and they should’ve known to stop worshiping Baal! Bethel was the headquarters of Baal worship, where this took place! 490 priests got killed by Elijah, There was no Priests around,; should’ve been a gigantic clue. So God never arbitrarily and haphazardly deals with any human being ! His love cannot be measured says Romans 8! But if you’re a Calvinist, it’s “his love cannot be measured , (Wink, wink)“! Come out of the false belief system of Calvinism ! Now you have no excuse because you cannot out argue this, let’s hear you try! Read Matthew 25 the parable of the Calvinists, a.k.a. talents ! Where the guy buried his talent calling God,- somebody who doesn’t judge rightly & he was thrown into hell as a result! He had the wrong view of God, & So Will a Calvinist, they’ll have a callous view of God & The love of Christs sacrificial death on the cross! Jesus was crucified before the foundations of the world, but he only had to die one time Says hebrews, so don’t get it wrong like Moses; when did Jesus die ? So this trumps predestination before the foundations of the world, because God chose to to write this to disprove & trump predestination! Revelation 13:8

That's silly if God determined for it to happen. You have no theological reason to be upset with any of God's plan within a Calvinistic framework. For you to be upset would mean you are elevating your opinion above God's and are telling God that you know better. Or, you can re evaluate Calvinistic total depravity and see that it all starts to unravel when you ask tough questions. Jesus doesn't need to teach in parables if the men are really born dead and blind.... does He? You can't tell people Jesus loves them if you think God may actually hate some of them and may have determined that they and/or their infants will go to Hell. You shouldn't have to change definitions and play semantic word games. Just seek the truth and be willing to accept it no matter how inconvenient it may be. I was a Calvinist for 20 years and many pastors take 10 or 20 years before realizing Calvinism cannot be consistently applied with a proper hermeneutic and agree with the Bible.

And there is a difference between Armenian and Arminian. Armenian is a nationality and an ancient church in the Eastern Orthodox tradition. Arminians are followers of Jacob Arminius, a pastor during the Reformation.

I go to a reformed Baptist church and baptism is for believers and we are also confessional and Calvinist. We hold to the 1689 London Baptist confession of faith. Used to attend SBC and was never taught church history and doctrine was what I learned reading my bible. I was anti Calvinist because I didn’t understand it. Most SBC are Arminian.

@sonnyh9774 That's not the major problem. Total Depravity, Determinism, and the Sovereignty of God are contrary to 99% of the Bible. Study those and you can easily see instead of the few verses Calvinists push all the time.

Neither James White nor Jeff Durbin are Southern Baptists. Pretty sure they’d be kicked out if they were 🤪 They’re a little too hardcore for the SBC lol

"Total inability" is an eisegetical interpretation. Per Sproul and others.... Calvinism stands or falls on Augustinian "total depravity". There are no clear Biblical passages teaching total inability. Calvin and Augustine had major problems, and Calvinists have a difficult time being consistent with this "theology"... other than consistently being inconsistent. The Calvinist God that sends some infants to Hell and determines others to Hell.... is more akin to the demonic creation of "Zeus" rather than the loving God of the Bible. All roads of sugar coated determinism (compatibalism) .... lead to exhaustive determinism. Then Calvinists like John McArthur and Paul Washer get upset outside of their theological approach when God determines Joel Osteen and Joyce Meyers to preach. Why would Calvinists get upset when God decrees others to do anything? To get upset with anything is to be unhappy with God's plan and decree and is a form of idolatry to elevate your opinion above God's.. Jesus has no justification to teach in parables so the blind won't see something. How can you make a blind man more blind? You can't. The Calvinist theology applied makes a mockery of logic and the character of God. I was a Calvinist for over 20 years because I wasn't a good Berean and just took the claims of men as true. I still do, but after we ask tough questions, we find Calvinist theology being an eisegetic exercise by men who claim to serve God but resist Him through their prideful justification of "doing church" the way they want to. Changing definitions so your theology works can be problematic and we see it every day.

@@sonnyh9774 😄

@@toddstevens9667 I'm well aware. But the observation stands.

@sonnyh9774 John 6:44 is unequivocally teaching the inability of man to come to Jesus with the drawing of the Father. Romans 8 unequivocally teaches man's inability on his own to be good, to do good, and to choose good according to the economy of God. How you missed it is beyond me. There is no eisegesis involved in allowing the Scripture to speak and say what it says. That comes when one does as Leighton Flowers does and just add the words he needs to make his theology work when the words are not actually there in the text.

The SBC is an apostate organized with heretics as leaders

Thanks Josh. Miss you bro!

You went to the PCA because you want to support LGBTQ nonsense and women in ministry.

Also, if they got this to pass, we would have one seminary remaining, not six. And the convention would be severely impoverished theologically and spiritually.

@grandmaryables Just wanted to let you know what I believe as a non calvinist. I don’t believe that anyone is consciously seeking God. It’s the other way around. God is the one doing the seeking. He confronts us and it is after, that we must choose to accept or reject Him. I often hear the strawman from calvinists who say things like: “you think you save yourself” or “you went seeking God all on your own”…. Just wanted to set the record straight.

@@4godisholy when God really confronts us it is to save us. Think of Paul - he was confronted by Jesus and Paul did not have any time to think about whether he would choose or reject. Paul obviously had heard the Gospel as he was around Christians. But he did not choose to believe any of it - rather he persecuted the Christians. But at the moment Jesus confronted Him and in that short space of time a regenerating work was done and Paul had to call Jesus LORD. God did it not Paul. It is the same with everyone saved - not maybe as dramatically- but it is the same concept. K

⁠@@mikekayanderson408 What text says that Paul didn’t have a choice? Acts 26:14-19 seems to imply otherwise. What text speaks of regeneration preceding faith?

@@4godisholy you can’t believe if not regenerated. Only a heart that is softened, only a spirit which has been renewed or brought to life, only a mind that is enlightened or renewed, only a soul convicted of sin by the Holy Spirit repents - which God grants or gives, only a soul that has repented has faith which is another gift from God - then comes justification which is a declaration of God - then starts sanctification which lasts for the rest of that persons life. You must be born again or you cannot see the kingdom of heaven. Immediately Paul fell off His horse and was confronted by Jesus - he submitted and called Him Lord. He immediately knew and understood who Jesus really was. He did not go away and think about it! Yes he lost his sight and had to be taken care of for a few days - but he knew and believed right away because he had been regenerated by the Holy Spirit. Born again. Only if you have been given the Holy Spirit can you genuine call Jesus Lord. You only receive the Holy Spirit after you have been regenerated. K

I gave you scripture to argue my point. I asked you for scripture and all you gave me were reformed talking points. Please answer my questions. Thanks

@treethatfalls I attend a reformed baptist church and have now for the past 7 years. Besides my own studies on the topic I get a weekly dose of calvinism. I discuss the topic frequently with my pastor and as hard as I try, I have found that it is impossible to represent calvinism correctly. It may be that this man is misrepresenting calvinism or it may be that he is just stating it plainly. When I started studying soteriology I only listened to calvinists, men like Sproul, Piper, MacArthur, etc…It was their teaching that led me to believe that the calvinist understanding of God was bi-polar, narcissistic, willing that most of humanity should perish, etc…it was them that made me say, is that really what scripture is teaching? I know that neither you nor does any calvinist believe that the calvinist system makes God into any of those things I mentioned. My point is this, if all you hear as a non calvinist from calvinist preachers is: you were born a”viper in a diaper”, or “you were chosen for salvation or reprobation before the foundation of the world”, or “you can’t put your trust in Christ unless he regenerates you first”, or “God has decreed all that comes to pass”, etc… it is really hard to see a God who is loving, just, or merciful. So can you really blame the guy for spreading his “version” of calvinism? I don’t mean for this to be contentious. Just wanted to try and give a possible reason for people pushing back and in some cases doing so vehemently. God bless

I’m not sure if it’s intentional or not, but Dr Flowers conflates the decrees of God.

When my husband and I first came to faith and were trying to learn, we providential stumbled on the teaching of RC. Nothing helped clarify who God is as his teaching. I don't think we should undermine God's Sovereignty by rejecting reformed theology

People get emotional about Calvinism because it's heresy taught as truth. That is something to get emotional about. It's nonsense and it dishonors God.

Yeah, it’s always been really crazy to me that the only ones who can accurately represent Calvinism are those who support it. You are a Calvinist? Congratulations you now have the super power of being able to represent Calvinism. Oh, you don’t support Calvinism? Unfortunately you will never be able to understand these “deep” truths… unless you start agreeing with us!

@@sorenpx how does it dishonor God? And why would you say that it is not taught in scripture?

OK, and since everyone knows that not all of Arminian doctrine is heretical.... but only a few... we know why you weren't allowed to make any motions. The Chosen, season 4 episode 4 is on.... I'm popping some popcorn now

Agreed, as long as calvinism goes with arminianism. Provisionism rules! 😂

@@4godisholy Biblical theology should rule instead, just a suggestion

Both Calvinists and Armenian theology is wrong please just read Bible rightly dividing and context in tact

Please provide any proof to support your point.

@@Martepiece They proof I provide is the Bible .

YES!!! calvinism should be kicked out because its Total Depravity and Determinism contradict Jesus's teachings. In Matthew 13 and Mark 4, Jesus used parables to keep sinners from understanding. In Calvinism, sinners are born blind to the truth and remain blind to the truth forever as predetermined by the Calvinists' God who can decide to do bad if He so chooses. The Great Commision Commandment shows no support to Calvinist doctrines of Total Depravity and Determinism. There are more contradictions, such as Paul's writings being superior to Jesus's teachings and words. When Calvinists such as MacArthur and White are asked about these contradictions, their answers of "it's a mystery above my paygrade" is not acceptable. While Calvinust justify their total reliance on Paul's writings as God breathe, that can not be superior to Jesus's words since Jesus IS God!

Referred to a committee or entity where it'll probably go nowhere.

You really should be dragged out.

What if you get drug out by the Rapture? 🤪

😂

@@toddstevens9667 the “rapture “. The catching up to the Lord will only take place at the return of the Lord Jesus Christ at His second coming! Not secret and not before His return! K

I was being funny. Post-Millennials don’t believe in a rapture.

Calvinism does not line up with scripture Scripture tells us that baptism saves, infants/children have faith, Christ is truly present in the supper, and salvation can be lost.

@@gumbyshrimp2606 -- A papist has chimed in!

@@gregb6469 the Pope is the antichrist :)

@@gumbyshrimp2606 Your beliefs try to wrest sovereignty from God and place it in mans hands.

@@gumbyshrimp2606”All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.” -John 6:37. Scripture actually says otherwise from what you’re saying. If you are a part of the elect and are truly regenerated, God will never cast you out. He will never leave you nor forsake you (Deut. 31:8)

They're going to have a hard time with Peter's testimony at Pentecost since he directly attributed the cruxifcion to the Predestination of events according to God's will, not man's. When you stand opposed to Peter and Paul, you're on sand.

@blchamblisscscp8476 You may want to read more widely. There have been a range of interpretations to Romans 9.

@@sorenpxThe vast majority of which are completely wrong. Just sayin …

@@sorenpx Yeah, you're right...a wide range of pretzel logic to make Romans 9 not say what it clearly does, and this is, salvation is a sovereign act of God.

@@gregmcray The Bible must be read in its entirety, not a handful of verses clipped to make a theology. The earliest Christians did not believe in Calvin's understanding of election and most don't today either. There's a reason for that: Calvin was wrong.

I’d consider RTS if possible.

The Master’s Seminary would be the best place for you to go!

St.Andrews, Moscow Idaho.

Wherever you go, who you study under and with will make all the difference.

Watch the documentary “Enemies within the church” might help with your decision a lot.

there is no such a thing as a two or three point Calvinist, the five points stand or fall together.

@@e.t.h.559 "Four point Calvinists? We call those Arminians!" -R.C. Sproul. Five points or bust!

You can't be consistent without being a 5 pointer. It all falls or stands with Total depravity with was formulated more from an Eisegetical approach using Gnostic teaching than Scripture (by Augustine). If you are truly dead and blind, then why did Jesus teach in parables so they wouldn't understand and believe???? It just doesn't hold up under tough questions.

Well, despite your denial there are many people who would consider themselves to agree with some and not all of the points of “Calvinism”. You may think those people are inconsistent in their views but it doesn’t change what I posted in the least. I’ve known people to say you aren’t really a Calvinist unless you believe in double predestination. I’ve known people who have said they believe in it so much there is no way a person can truly know if they are one of the elect or not. I disagree. But they thought they were right just like you all think you are right. Most people in the southern Baptist convention will agree with 2-3 points if calvinism and not the others.

@@sonnyh9774 "It all falls or stands with Total depravity which was formulated more from an...approach using Gnostic teaching than Scripture." This is an outright falsehood. Total depravity comes directly from Scripture's clear teaching that mankind is comprehensively fallen and rebellious after Adam's sin (Genesis 6:5, Gen 8:21, Jeremiah 17:9, Romans 3:10-18 Rom 8 7-8, etc). Calling it "Gnostic" is a slanderous misrepresentation. "If you are truly dead and blind, then why did Jesus teach in parables so they wouldn't understand?" This objection misses the point of judicial hardening. Christ's parables weren't just hard truths, but instruments of divine judgment on the hard-hearted rejecting Him. This involved two aspects: God withdrawing heart-softening grace from these truth-suppressors, leaving them to the natural consequences of their self-imposed hardness (spiritual darkness). An impartial application of external punishments meant to harden hearts as a harsh judgment - in this case, the increasingly obscure parables of Christ, which served to further blind those who rejected Him. This matches Pharaoh's case - his rejection of God's signs provoked removal of grace while unleashing plagues to further harden him. The parables functioned similarly for unrepentant Jewish rejecters of Christ. "It just doesn't hold up under tough questions.” Not at all - judicial hardening aligns with total depravity. The unregenerate remain culpable for their depravity while righteously subjected to compounded blindness orchestrated by the offended Divine Judge. Their suppression of truth makes them deserving of having incomprehensibility and obscurity increase upon them as judgment for their inveterate condition.

The Resolutions Committee rejected the motion and it was never brought to a floor vote. (I was there, it mostly got moans and laughs). I don't remember what reason they used to reject the motion, but the resolutions committee serves as a sort of checks and balances for wackiness!

Same

5-Point Calvinists and 1-Point Calvinists in the SBC get along only by ignoring the elephant in the room, that they preach different gospels.

@@gregb6469soteriology is not the gospel..

@@gregb6469That’s silly. And wrong.

Calvanism is just not bibical. It is equivalent to female pastors. It shouldn't be taught in church in the SBC.

That is true … but then we shouldn’t be hiring pastors that we don’t know.

Yes, it's happening in Covington Georgia with a 10 plus year plan to implement a slow church split where people get discouraged and leave one by one without causing too much of a stink. The devil is in the details. I've confronted him and he kicked me out. He allowed my wife to leave me without Biblical reasons and won't say one thing in reproof to her. She and my kids still attend while I watch online. No man, woman or child is safe from this closet egalitarian and exhaustive determinist. He asks the elderly to include the church in their wills to build a new building. He has prevented me from joining the church for years, but he let my wife and kids join. I was a Calvinist for 20 years until I noticed some tough questions being asked and Calvinist apologists avoiding the questions.... which led to more questions and a humbling realization that I had been deceived.

That's complete BS. The Roman Catholics are the epitome of holding mans traditions (way) above God's Word.

The ecumenical theological diversity argument that Keith is using for Calvinism, is the argument the UMC used for queer acceptance. I am a trustee at a UMC church in the deep south and we are allowed to stay the course on our policies on this topic. Both our current minister and the trustees have decided to maintain the status quo (biblical) position on marriage within our church. The general UMC policy is that the trustees control the use of the church building and the minister sets his own policy on whom he will perform marriages for. The decision, while problematic theologically, still gives individual ministers and congregations choice on their own policies. I read a lot of shade cast at the UMC (somewhat rightfully) but I have not seen any one from the UMC clarify the UMC's position/policy on the topic in these media spaces.

My question is when did ministers and trustees have authority over scripture.

@@miguelramos1855 ministers are the pastor equivalent, so they are ordained. The Trustees set the church building use policy, and are partially equivalent to elders in Presbyterian churches.

Important to recognize Baptist covenantalism is not identical to Presbyterian covenantal theology.

@@Shepherd16479think he asked if he would be Calvinistic, not reformed. They are not the same thing hence the different names. You can be Calvinistic in your soteriology which is shared by the reformers.

Thank you all, I am called a Calvinist in my church but I only hold to Calvin’s soteriology, I don’t think I agree with him on anything else in major theology

@@danielwarton5343 Calvin relied on Augustine. Augustine was heavily influenced by Gnostic writing... Manichaeism which taught total depravity. If man is totally blind and dead, then why is Jesus concerned about people believing His teaching and repenting? Jesus taught in parables and riddles so they wouldn't believe which undermines the entire notion of total depravity. How can you make a blind, dead man more blind or dead? It makes no sense. It also makes no sense to tell a group of people that Jesus loves them when Calvinism teaches that God hates some of them.

@@Shepherd16479 No, Mani was a gnostic who Augustine studied for a decade. Mani taught total depravity and total inability. Augustine bounced around the issue throughout his writings as he wrestled with formulating something plausible that people might buy as reasonable. Through the gnostic teachings of Mani, Augustine settled on total inability and used grey Scripture passages to eisegetically support his theory. Augustine was quite the carnal Christian and ladies man. Rumored to experiment with bi sexual escapades and being engaged to a 12 year old socialite are just a few of the tauntry stories about Augustine... oh, and don't forget when he used false witnesses to frame an oppenent ...trying to get him killed. Yeah, Augustine is what Calvinism is built upon and even though the character of a man doesn't necessarily discount truth... whatever such a man says should be checked twice by every Berean minded man. I think if you dig deep enough, you will see that "odd" is one of the nicer words to be used for Calvinistic theology and application. I might find a fun mentalist entertaining but that's about as close as I get to fundamentalist. If you are going to use ad hominem, I prefer using alliteration.

It is, people just don't realize it. All Baptist pastors I've seen preach all say we are born into sin, saved by God's grace, we can't resist God's will, and believers must have faith til the end. They all teach that. And that's 4 point calvinism, not all are 5 point calvinists. It's integral to almost every Baptists beliefs, they just don't know. Most Baptists don't read their Bibles, much less understand Theology or church history.

God sovereignly chose to give us the ability to accept or reject the gift and work of Jesus. It is God's will that all men be saved so either Calvinists serve a really weak and small God who can't do what he says or Calvinists are missing something. Calvinists can try to explain it away by changing definitions of words to make the esisegesis of Augustine appear consistent, but when put under scrutiny, it just doesn't hold water. Jesus wouldn't have to speak in parables if men were dead and blind... unless this is all a cruel joke and the most perverse play ever written. But, I don't believe that. I did for 20 years, but not any more.

@@sonnyh9774 you seem to forget that Jesus Himself said that no man can go to Him unless the Father call that person! Jesus also said that all those that the Father gave Him would come to Jesus. In both these statements Jesus says that God calls and gives! God is the one who takes the initiative! There are many other Scriptures like this. Also Paul’s says that those God elected , God calls, and God justifies them and God glorifies them in the end. Again it is all of God and not of man. Why is it everyone is happy to accept that God chose Israel to be His people in the Old Testament - that He created Israel basically as they were not a nation before Abraham was called - notice God chose or called Abraham - to be the nation He would reveal Himself to and give His Word to ……. But in the New Testament everyone gets on their high horses about the fact that God is still continuing to choose a people for Himself? God did not save all of Israel - He chose to save some Israelites as a people for Himself out of that nation. By His grace He also saved some from outside Israel. In the New Testament the same is true - Jesus is building His church by saving the elect of God! Which included all the first believers in Jesus which were Jews. One Scripture mentions that when Paul was preaching only those who were elect believed. When Paul approached the women having a bible study it says God opened Lydia’s mind to under and believe the Gospel. So she was brought to faith by God’s grace and action. Pride is the problem! Man likes to think he is in control- making his own choices to be saved. That’s why everyone gets angry! They do not want to bow the knee to God! When I first became a Christian I knew nothing of election. Others around did not talk about it. I was in an Anglican Church. But as I studied and read my Bible I could see the references to election for myself! You can’t miss them! I knew nothing about Calvin. So I asked questions and I studied and it all fell nicely into place! I can’t say I liked the doctrine at first! But the more convinced I became of its validity in the pages of Scripture - the more I bowed the knee to God and actually it was a most wonderful experience as I realised that I - a wretched sinner who deserved hell - had actually been known by God before the creation of the world!! That He had set His love upon me in Christ. We all deserve to go to hell! God does not have to save anyone! He owes us nothing but punishment! Yet in His mercy and grace He saves some! How thankful we should be! I was dead in my sin - rebelling against God and would have done so to my dying day if He had not intervened and saved me. K

@@sonnyh9774 NO! Our default position is to reject the Gospel. To reject God. To reject Jesus. God has to take the initiative and give us a new heart and a new mind. Regeneration! He gives repentance. He gives faith. It is all by Grace. It is all a gift. K

@@sonnyh9774 you also seem to forget that unbelievers - all mankind in his natural state are the children of Satan! Bound by sin! Blinded by Satan! Deceived by Satan ! How can anyone in that position have free will to believe in Jesus? Believe the Gospel? Their minds are darkened! Hence God has to intervene! He doesn’t do this for everyone - or everyone would be saved! He does it for the elect alone. None of the elect will be lost. K

@@mikekayanderson408 Thank you for your kind and heartfelt reply. I was a Calvinist for 20 years and persuaded many to become Calvinist. I can relate to much of your comment. So much of it fits very nicely into place. However, there are some things that do not fit nicely that Piper and MacArthur will chalk up to mystery rather than address the dilemma. One dilemma that John MacArthur just admits he doesn't have an answer for is , "Why did Jesus preach in parables so the people wouldn't believe when, in theory, they were dead and blind and couldn't see unless God opened their eyes?" MacArthur said that was a very good question.... that he didn't know... that it was a mystery. This contradicts the theory of Calvin and Augustine of total depravity. Another question is why did Jesus weep over Jerusalem rejecting Jesus when , in theory, God had sovereignly planned it from the beginning? Why would Jesus be upset with God's plan? Jesus has no good reason to be upset with anything God has determined. Piper is consistent enough to admit that God is the author of every sin... every child molestation and child sacrifice. I'm sorry, but that just doesn't match the character of God in the Bible. Consider these three verses where God says the thing never came into His mind: And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into My heart. (Jer 7:31) (they have also built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or speak, nor did it come into My mind), (Jer 19:5) And they built the high places of Baal which are in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.’ (Jer 32:35) These verses are problematic for Calvinistic theology which says that God determines everything and planned it from the beginning of time. I don't believe God elects and sends some babies to Hell because I don't believe those babies are born with the guilt of the sin of Adam or any of their fathers. See Ezekiel 18:20 where the father's guilt shall not bear upon the child. The Bible teaches that we are responsible for our own deeds and our own sins. We are born with a sin nature but not the sin of Adam, so it is more loving and consistent with God's character to take babies to Heaven unless they reach the "age of accountability". A consistent Calvinist is one who believes God determines and authors evil. All roads of compatable theories that try to sugar coat it by saying God determines our desires and we are accountable for our decisions.... this is folly and basically the same as determinism. Your trouble accepting this theology was your heart struggling with this contradiction. John Calvin struggled with the same thing.... wrestling with how God can be the author of evil. God loves us enough to give us a limited free will choice to accept or reject Him as our Lord and Savior. No one goes to Hell unless they choose to reject God. Love requires a free will choice. God doesn't force us to love Him. He would be a very small and insecure God to make us all glorified robots with just the illusion of free will. A consistent Calvinist can't tell a crowd that Jesus loves them because, in theory, God hates some of them, so it would be dishonest to say God loves you when we don't know ... as a Calvinist. The Calvinist theology is the most unloving approach I can think of. God wants us to love as He does, so are we to hate people like He does? No, we are to love... even our enemies and forgive others as God forgives us.

Well... blessed are you when men say all kinds of stupid things against the Sovereignty of Jesus Christ. 😅

It doesn't have to be that way. I belong to an SBC-affiliated reformed Baptist church outside Nashville, and we don't remotely shrink from reformed theology. Crazy as it is, we're approaching mega-church size (over 2,000 per Sunday) while practicing expository preaching and weekly call-and-response confessions. Most amazing church I've ever been a part of.

@@gregmcray may I ask where outside of Nashville? I’m in Wilson County

@@justinthyme2666 The Journey Church in Lebanon, Leeville Pike. 8:30, 10:00, and 11:30.

@@gregmcray yes, I’ve visited there a few times and really liked it. I don’t think our youngest could handle the volume of the music, unfortunately, and my wife isn’t fully on board with reformed (yet, at least).

Was hoping they'd be in your store!

Most Calvinists don't know the 5 points. Most have heard MacArthur and Piper sermons and agree with a couple of points. The problem is that all 5 points have to be fully applied to be consistent as Lorraine Boettner writes "As will be shown, the Bible contains an abundance of material for the development of each of these doctrines. Furthermore, these are not isolated and independent doctrines but are so inter-related that they form a simple, harmonious, self-consistent system; and the way in which they fit together as component parts of a well-ordered whole has won the admiration of thinking men of all creeds. Prove any one of them true and all the others will follow as logical and necessary parts of the system. Prove any one of them false and the whole system must be abandoned. They are found to dovetail perfectly one into the other. They are so many links in the great chain of causes, and not one of them can be taken away without marring and subverting the whole Gospel plan of salvation through Christ. We cannot conceive of this agreement arising merely by accident, nor even being possible, unless these doctrines are true." The consistent Calvinist is an exhaustive determinist like Piper which doesn't allow any free will; makes us fancy robots; and makes God the author of sin. Of course, this is repulsive to the sensibilities of most, so we have compatabilism which is a sugar coated version of determinism and basically the same thing... but we feel better about the that uneasy feeling in our soul. The consistent Calvinist cannot rightfully be upset about anything... since everything is part of God's perfect plan. How can you be upset with God's plan? This means MacArthur can't rightfully get upset at Joel Osteen and Joyce Meyers anymore or risk being accused of elevating his opinion above God's in an idolatrous way. To be a consistent Calvinist is a very strange thing... indeed.

Baptists can't really be reformed. They can be Calvinistic when it comes to predestination (they explain it wrong though), but not reformed.

How about this? Calvinism should be kicked out because its Total Depravity and Determinism contradict Jesus's teachings. In Matthew 13 and Mark 4, Jesus used parables to keep sinners from understanding. In Calvinism, sinners are born blind to the truth and remain blind to the truth forever as predetermined by the Calvinists' God who can decide to do bad if He so chooses. The Great Commision Commandment shows no support to Calvinist doctrines of Total Depravity and Determinism. There are more contradictions, such as Paul's writings being superior to Jesus's teachings and words. When Calvinists such as MacArthur and White are asked about these contradictions, their answers of "it's a mystery above my paygrade" is not acceptable. While Calvinust justify their total reliance on Paul's writings as God breathe, that can not be superior to Jesus's words since Jesus IS God!

SBC is comprised of like believing evangelical congregations and hyper Calvin's do not subscribe to such radical beliefs. Like Presbyterians, they omit "who so ever will" thus we would have to agree Calvin's are really not of like congregations.

Baptists teach POINSETTIA, not TULIP. POINSETTIA. - Pursuit Unconditional: God desires all to be saved and has made a way of salvation in Christ for any person. - Own Guilt: Fallen man inherits a sinful nature but is condemned only because of his own sin. - Inclusive Atonement: The substitutionary atonement of Christ is effective and available for every person. - Natural Responsibility: God’s grace takes all the initiative in saving souls. Man’s free response is not a work. - Spontaneous Regeneration: Any who repent and believe are regenerated at that point, not before or apart from it.​ - Election Available: In election, God saves people without predetermining their souls for heaven or hell. - Temperate Foreknowledge: God’s sovereign omniscience does not mean he causes human decisions about Jesus. - True Freedom: God gives to each person actual free will to accept or reject his call to salvation. - Indestructible Security: When one is saved, God promises to complete the process, sealing their eternal fate.​ - Almighty Gospel: As we share God’s love, the gospel is the means of bringing any person to Christ.

The specific issue is that God formed a human being for the purpose of tormenting that person forever for His glory, without any possibility of escaping this fate. That's a major issue because it turns God into a monster and insults his character.

@@sorenpx I believe that you're mistaking Calvinism for hyper-Calvinism... Plus, God owes NONE of us salvation; the fact that he rescues any of us is an amazing and glorious demonstration of His grace and mercy. Nevertheless, you dodged my question: why did this man not give his specific objection? An unfocused objection rarely brings a properly focused solution.

@@KatWilton No, that is not a hyper-calvinist belief. That is just a calvinistic and biblical one. Romans 9 clearly teaches that God creates some people to be vessels of wrath while others are created to be recipients of mercy. While that might seem unfair, do you know what Paul's response was? "... [W]ho are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”" (Rom. 9:20 ESV)

@@sorenpxCalvinists don’t believe that. Don’t be silly

@@toddstevens9667 James White says so!

I thought a lot about doctrine when my church was in the SBC and I thought all the Calvinists were in the Presbyterian church down the road. You'll need to explain your comment.

You need Heretics to think about Doctrine...what?😮

There is nothing about calvinism biblical! Why can't you guys just read your own bible and OBEY the Gospel before it's to late!

@@John-3-36and what, in your mind, is obeying the gospel?

@@John-3-36What do you mean?

Yes!!! Thanks for saying this. I’ve been using my Kindle a ton recently.

That would be preferable to Hodge or Grudem in many ways.

Downloaded it from ccel

​@@sonnyh9774 I'm familiar with Grudem's but have not read it. I'm assuming you consider it a little dangerous because he's a continuationist? Boyce definitely was not and neither am I.

@@SimpleManGuitars1973 My beef with Grudem is his stance on marriage which was used by my wife for "no fault divorce" and my calvinist pastor didn't say one negative thing to her about it. So, I'm ill with Grudem's compromise on marriage and it makes me leary of anything the man says... right or wrong. I have also been asked not to attend church by the same calvinist pastor without Biblical justification. I have asked for my sin with no reply. The "good ol boy" SBC Calvinist is alive and well and it's got me asking questions and wanting some answers as to what has caused these men to act this way? The more I dig, the more problems I find with Calvinism because I'm looking rather than "justifying". I was an inconsistent calvinist for 20 years, and I'm waking up from the cognitive dissonance. To be consistent, all 5 points must exist. Piper tries to be consistent with his exhausive determinism, but exhaustive determinism consistently applied is more demonic than christian. Many sense this and try to sugar coat things with compatible ism but it's the same thing... just sugar coated.

I agree, let’s get back to historic Christianity by using the Scriptures as the sole infallible rule of faith

Absolutely.... let's skip all that Augustinian/ Gnostic eisegesis and let the Scripture teach us.

@@sonnyh9774 Haha yes, let’s let them speak for themselves indeed. Consistently and in context. Amen.

Yes but 2000 years ago Historic Christianity was following Jesus when he gave His Authority to the Church (not to the Bible)... and that is what Christians did the majority of 1500 years before the idea that the Bible was our "sole infallible rule of faith" was made up by men...

@@PatrickSteil Fascinating take, my friend. They were following Christ directly, and then, get this, they wrote those things down for us in Holy Writ so we didn’t have to rely on men who contradict those very scriptures to tell us what to do. As Paul commended the Bereans for testing even his words against the Scriptures. As for “the 2,000 year old church”, church history is not friendly to that claim at all man. You show me the Bishop who believed half of the dogmatic teaching of Rome today at Nicea and I will give you a dollar. But of course that is why Newman invented the doctrine of development, cuz there is not historical justification at all for that claim. Not that dogmatic teaching is even upheld by Rome anymore anyway, it’s a buffet anymore. It is an ever changing game of power and contradictions in Rome, with no final authority to tell heads or tails. Take it from me, I’m not Martin Luther lol.