Should Elite Universities Reinstate the SAT? 

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As a college student, I was all for getting rid of it. As an adult, I've now changed my mind and think I prejudged way too quick. 😅

Went from undecided to ... undecided, maybe a liiitle bit "For" the motion. I was very interested in the same debate that was circulating with the Physics GRE several years ago after studies came out showing no correlation between those scores and students grades. John's new research finding that SAT scores are predictive is interesting but I'm still left wondering what was wrong then with all of the other studies that have also shown problems with the SAT. They touched on it a bit in this debate. But there's one question I had that never quite got answered though it nearly came up. How are the schools supposed to deal with the volume of applications they get if they are to use a more bespoke assessment of every individual student? Ben said that they've got a unique process that they change every year at his university but is such a thing scaleable? Sure the elite universities have resources, but you're still talking about coordinating a massive effort and a ton of staff hours. The committees time is finite. If they need to spend _more_ time on each individual application that time has gotta come from somewhere. Maybe deadlines would get even earlier, leaving the students less time to build up the kind of experience that would help their application. I dunno. I remain quite conflicted!

Interesting chat, thank you

Appreciate the thought provoking discussion! I have a few suggestions/questions/comments for future engagement with this topic because it is such an important one for all of us to have: - Given how much the conversation engaged with questions about access for first generation immigrants and ethnic minority groups, it was very stark to see only white experts in this discussion. It would be great to see a future debate that includes experts who are from diverse backgrounds (including poor, rural) and/or who have specific expertise in areas pertaining to educational and career outcomes for BIPOC students (such as African American studies, Asian American studies, Latino/Latina/Hispanic studies, etc). - The debate seems to boil down to "which standard should be used?" instead of "should we use the SAT as a standard?" I find Ben Nelson's approach for Minerva interesting, but am curious about what kinds of checks they have on pervasive racist bias in most testing / evaluation standards -- do they have diverse faculty and consultants with experiences in correcting for bias when designing these evaluations? What kinds of support do they have for diverse students once they are admitted? I agree that "gaming the system" is undesirable, but a lack of transparency can swing heavily in either direction depending on what is going on behind closed doors. - I have observed numerous online discussions by professors about drastic shifts in student attitudes in their classes, which reflects the ongoing shift from education to commodification we've seen in universities. Most of this is in a negative direction, where students see themselves as customers, rather than scholars, and are entitled to "customer service" to extreme extents from professors. This may or may not be correlated with the removal of the SAT as one factor in admissions. But I think that there is a larger shift happening that warrants further exploration. Love your programming! I've been a follower of IQ2 US for many years and am excited about this new format. (Disclosure: I previously have taught at a university and have worked in research related to STEM education and careers for girls and women of color, so discourse on this topic is great to see)

I don't actually believe the SAT performs any other function other than giving a baseline for competence in the general knowledge and ability one would expect from someone graduating from any college. It does not really stand as a test for future competence as much as it stands for a line we seem to need now to draw.

Timestamps: (04:57) Professor John Friedman's opening statement to keep the SAT (08:57) Founder of Minerva University Ben Nelson’s opening statement to get rid of the SAT (14:37) Are elite universities selecting for wealth? (22:04) Is GPA predictive of success in universities? (30:01) Diversity in elite universities and SAT (31:54) What about other standardized tests? (37:47) The #gendergap in the exam (40:46) Janet Lorin asks, does doing well on the SAT help you succeed? (46:02) Liam Knox lays out the current research on SAT about diversity and asks, why is it so inconsistent? (52:05) Derek Newton asks, how can knowing less about a student help us in making a complex decision?

"involve being around college students" sounds pervert af.

Of course.... you can get a 4.0 from ghetto and farm places with substandard teaching and inflated gradings. LOL SAT/ACT level the playing field.