Should Games Workshop be 3D printing miniatures? 

Printing changed my life. 🎉 can’t make flaming throwing remote control tanks without a printer! Well, you can but not as cool hahaha 😂

This was a great episode. You need must have him on again. This is up there with Trish's episode. He dead on, on many levels. I've said for a long time, table top gaming and 3d printing are two different, yet complimentary hobbies. I've given more money to GW than I have in 20 years because I got into 3d printing.

Rhys is a great guest. Absolute loved this episode.

On the topic of paper rules, I think the main issue is that with GW specifically they change the rules every 3 months, hell the Votann book was changed and out of date before it was even released! So I think the community want for digital rules is mostly so they can be updated with the constant changes. For a more indie game they tend to be more stable so books for them are great

'Doorgunner Geoff' defibitely needs to become a regular character on the show... 😂

Another absolute belter of an episode guys. I have been 3D printing for a couple years now in both Resin and FDM, and Rhys is absolutely spot-on when he describes it as a hobby in of itself. It's definitely not at the stage yet where it is completely plug and play but when it gets there, I think the broader miniature industry might change dramatically. Hope you guys have him on again and make the Private Peach Pack eventually!

“You’ve just made the Eldar” well someone needs to do something with them cause GW ain’t ;-)

Bloody hell! Didn't expect to wake up and see my mate Rhys on my favourite wargames podcast. It's a small nerdy world. Great interview as always :)

1:44:13 Join us on next weeks painting phase as we take Geoff out into the woods and make him cut down a tree and make a long bow from it and shoot apples from Peachys head.

Only about 40 minutes in, but I had to pause and comment. First, I had to laugh because as all y'all were talking about the Warlord Games Daleks I was literally rearranging my storage boxes to give mine a proper home. :D Second: I'm involved in 3d printers and I do think that hobby/industry is rapidly moving towards being plug-and-play. There's a lot of stuff coming out now that automates so many of the details that you used to have to waste massive amounts of time screwing around trying to get just right. Upgrading from an Ender to a Bambu X1 change my making process from "I will do anything I can to avoid 3d printing this" to "hmm, I think I'll CAD up and print out a tray to hold all these Daleks in the bin I bought from the Dollar Store." That said, the biggest obstacle to Peachy's vision of "have a printer in the store" is that for high-detail stuff you want a resin printer and those are *insanely* toxic, I can't understand why anyone has them in their homes. Finally, and most relevant: I broadly agree with you about the ethics of 3d printed substitutes of Games Workshop models. But I also have to be honest and admit that *none* of my Space Marines are actual GW product; they're all 3d prints I purchased. (Because though I have my own FDM printers, I won't deal with resin.) What do I have those? Because GW models cost more than I think they're worth. Please read that sentence *very* carefully. I'm happy to assume that GW is adding a reasonable, fair profit margin to their costs. That still puts the cost *to me* as the consumer well above what I'm willing to pay. And the sheer popularity of 3d printed "proxies" and even recasts shows that there is a *strong* market segment that agrees with me. Does the existence of these options cost GW some money? Certainly. Does it cost GW as much as the makers of the alternatives earn? Definitely not; many people will be in the same position as I am - I'm not buying GW's Marines either way, because they cost more than I'm willing to pay. The existence of these substitutes did not cost GW my money, they just allowed me to purchase something at a price I'm comfortable with instead of doing without entirely. What this says to me, as a person with an Economics minor, is that the *market* clearly thinks GW models are over-priced. If the majority of people agreed that GW's models were reasonably priced, the prestige and quality elements of the GW models would prevent the substitutes of gaining traction. I grant you that I don't have comprehensive data on just how much money gets spent on substitutes, and have no idea how big that market segment actually is. I could simply be seeing what I want to see to justify my own choices. However, I think there's a strong case to be made that in pure Econ 101 terms, GW's prices are higher than the market will accept, and until and unless they find a way to bring unit costs down, both makers and consumers will continue searching for - and *paying* for - alternatives.

Mild mannered content creator by day, no chin crimefighter by night...>throaty growl< " I'M PATMAN!" Great show. I 3rd print as well and use MMF for several STL patreon creators and MMF is a great platform. Best wishes to you all!

I want to paint up 'Doorgunner Geoff' now 😂

MMF is awesome, I wish everyone with a patreon would start using Tribes instead.

This is awesome. Just recently got the Greytide studio Primal hounds physical pledge bits thru only games and then my favorite RU-vidrs interview the Fella that’s apart of it.

Only glanced at the thumbnail when pressing start, just saw peach with a bearded gent, assumed it was Jeff no guest today 😂

As usual, very interesting guest, entertaining conversation and fantastic topics :-) Thanks again for awesome content! :-)

this is another great episode with another great guest!

Didn’t realise Ray Winstone was a warhammer fan; awesome that you managed to get him on!

This was reall fascinating. Re the compatible arms, bits, etc, I'd argue that comes under spare or alternate parts for a product wrt copyright, design etc. As long as its not a total copy of an already existing bit, its legitimate. This was a crucial area of copyright that got updated because car companies were price gouging spare parts.

Thanks for the interview. I get lots of stuff from MMF and never thought of the background.

It took me such a long time to find a method of painting i enjoy (thanks to the hobby power couple, Louise & Rob) that had I the opportunity to get already coloured mini, i would of never learned to paint. There by missing out in something that now brinings me a lot of joy. Im not saying the coloured prints are good or bad, just dont give up on something because its difficult , and who knows, they may bring more folks into the hobby and give them the confidence to keep picking up a brush till they're happy with the results ❤

The Shatterpoint / Legion models peach was talking about were the Mission Fleet range. Theyre the perfect scale, and im always hunting for them for store terrain.

Welcome to the Tangent Phase Game where you can go wherever you like as long as it isn't a straight line! Fun conversation!

i started in 3d priago opened a 3d printing store making lots of terrain and such pla and resin , its a fun thing to do

I totally agree with Geoff, if it complements GW that's a great thing! Glad you mentioned Greytide Studio as well, I got the Merchant Licence because they are fantastic sculpts, now I've got to start printing the Primal Hounds stuff!!

Holy shit, that's Rhys! First Heresy event I ever went to was at The Games Shop in Aldershot when he was the manager. I remember his epic kit-bashed Angron! Madness :D Great guest, too!

As someone who's worked in '2d' print for many years it's great to see the hobby having the support and facility to do small quantity runs. The potential innovation this can harbour is what makes table top games what they are! Wish I had some physical copies of 28 Mag, indie publications are so dear to me.. Not got to the "should GW 3d print minis" section yet, but god it was refreshing visiting Warlord games and them not only acknowledge that its a real bit of technology in the world, but talking about how its helped them and their work processes! Mean while GW have their heads under the sand about the topic it seems ;)

I want one of those old school tshirts

As a small creator I have to say that MMF is absolutely stellar. Their customer service is absolutely awesome, and I've never had an issue that wasn't solved quickly. I hope you all keep doing what your doing.

The datacards with the codex are super helpful. Im typically using my phone for the app for core rules and a score card app.

Got my ravaged star models 2/3 yesterday getting ready to enter my first eve paint competition. Immari look great for Dwarf fans

I disagree with you denouncing proxy designers. There are a load of things that GW own as IP that they haven't updated in years or the style of them look rubbish now. For example I collect Steel Legion for 40k which you just can't get models for now so I have backed a kickstarter to get proper proxies. I also collect Ogre kingdoms (ogors now) but the sculpts for them are crap from GW. ClayBeast however have done an amazing job at their version of Ogres that blow the current GW sculpts away.

Hahaha.. this was friggin wonderful, keep up the great work guys :D

I would love to use the onlygames service as i am actually working on my own miniatures platoon level skirmish game but i have no idea and how to get rule book (physical or pdf) done that would actually look nice.

just to add my own two cents to the "if you make something that replaces a unit in warhammer it's not good" I would addendum that to "if you make a unit 1:1 as best you can for warhammer it's not good" because I know a creator called PiperMakes who has their own webstore and makes "totally not tau" and the stealth suits are a huge improvement in my opinion because they have digital cloaking effects that you can paint and stuff. however, if you just make cadian guardsmen but again and as a full kit I think that's a bit... ehhhhh... (if you put out the OOP heads or something I think I'd get that)

Another great episode. And, as others have said, I would love an STL of Door-gunner Geoff 😂

I'm waiting for a reference to Lady Chatterly's Lover (the 90's version has Sean Bean in it as Mellors).

I got one of the OPR minis at Spiel in Essen! Great quality print! =) I want to know where Jeff's shirt is from! I love it!

Another classic episode of Sidetracked. Well done guys. Will definitely be checking out my mini factory in the future

Not sure it's been said, but curing and prints: Uv resin cures around the 405mw range. Sunlight can cure it or a 405mw lamp. Once it's cured and primed this stops the curing process so it's fine to have your minis out in the sun etc after this. As much as you'd want models in the sun hah. The only issue you'd run into is if its hollow and there's uncared resin inside. Over time it'll cure and as its shrinking the inside, and the outside is solid, it'll crack and split open. 😢

I want a Door Gunner Geoff!!

Master Shaper Felix has been supporting us fans of Kroot for many years with copies, complimentary and alternate figures. I'm totally cool with it because GW had stopped producing them many years ago.

At 0:04 I was already hurrying, wallet in my hand, to the painting phase merch store. Even though Geoff's shirt wasn't black. 😎

Geoff! Please post a link to the store for your T shirt! I can't find it anywhere through Google

GW are already 3D printing. We've seen the layer lines in their preview images.

3D printing is very liberating, so many great creators out there offering prints.

My Primal Hounds bits should get to me in NZ in the next couple of days. I've been buying 1st born GW kits just for upgrade parts for modern scale marines, the chest pieces etc are obviously no use though.

Here is the link to the video Pat was talking about (the guys seeing if he could print an army before GW start selling it), Includes some really interesting interview snippets with a 3ddesigner and how they go about cloning the designs from what they see in GW articles. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-xffUpV0zhKo.html

Geoff, can't recommend Archie's Forge enough. I got the exact bits you were talking about for my Templars and they were excellent quality. And got delivered really quickly too

Best video yet! What an awesome guy 🙂

13:11 I felt exactly this way before I realized the app had a search function. After the third or fourth time I used Search I stopped brining my Core Book to games. If you know even a single word related to the rule you want to search for, the app will take you straight to it. No more remembering which little box the niche rule is in, or checking first the index, then the glossary, then the appendix before founding out whatever you were looking for isn't in any of those.

Post processing a plate of the Primal Hounds stls while listening

Great chat as usual chaps. Just another personal opinion regarding books vs digital media. A physical book is read casually more. Many years of leaving rulebooks on tables, in toilets means rules were devoured along linked lore & even snippets of stories. I'm not sat on the loo reading a digital rulebook but a codex left there....

Absolutely on board with the complementary aspect. I want a 3D printer when I have a bit more space to print beret heads for my cadians.

Gutted how everyone missed Peachy says “Get Peachy off” just after the fight club comment 😢

The add-on's for the Zone Mortalis terrain are awesome ... totally onboard with them ... copies of the ZM terrain it self .. is a big no go in my book

Rhys knowing the name of the little Chapter Serf [Navy Officer?] that came with MacCragge... /Pro :)

Manufacturing meets Art. Fascinating.

Ethics and philosophy. Epic sidetrack from toy soldiers. Love it!

Just a fact check here; it takes 3 to 5 hours to print a group of space marines not 8 hrs. The time depends on the height of the model and the machine more than the detail of the model. It does not take 3 months to print an army. If you batch them and depending on the faction it can be as quick as 2 weeks or as long as 4 weeks. It took me 4 weeks at an easy pace for a space marines 2000 point army printing at night and painting during the day. Prevents fails by calibrating your printer and checking the resin after a print in case something is floating in it from the last print. I don't really love 3d printing but felt I should clarify if someone wants to do it.

Wot an awesome bloke, must admit didnt know MMF was UK. I love some 3D printed poduct, especially vehicles and characters for my 8500 point Ork Mob. Cant be bothered with buying a printer/ UV setup, love the fact I can just buy product and build/paint.

Cracking interview, Rhys comes across as friendly, genuine, and knowledgeable. The Painting Phase Monday chat is a great way to start the week! 😊 Counter point on GW IP litigation; the vast majority of GW products are taken from other IP; Tolkein, Dune, D&D, movies like Terminator & Aliens, and taken directly from history like Horus and Colchis. That they are then overbearing on IP seems very hypocritical.

Might run into you there at the Fantasy exhibition at the British Library. I work at the BL and there's going to be some Warhammer Fantasy armies in the exhibition lent by staff.

Geoff mentioned an experience tracker for Index Cards, does anyone know which ones these are?

The Bretonnian sets have the likenesses of John Cleese and Terry Gilliam from Monty Python's The Holy Grail. I'd be surprised if they properly licensed those, and they just started selling them again.

I would definitely buy a door gunner Geoff.

Complimentary pieces certainly sell really well for ourselves and would be great sellers for GW. I'd love to see GW scan OOP minis and offer printed versions or STLs at least.. Would be amazing for Old World.

This could well be a Netflix type moment but i think there will always be a place for comapnies like Bandai and Games Workshop that offer model kits. The ease of use is still an issue with 3d printing. Resin post prosessing is not my idea of fun and always entertaining when you dont have full control of the temperature and environment.

Another stellar episode of sidetracked starting with the panic in Pat's voice saying - We do not have the space for a 3D Printer, please do not... That panic was real and may I say, delicious.

now if only my minifactory would load store images and update tribes content to libraries properly on a consistent basis.

What was the whole chapter house thing??

If you like Firefly have a listen on Audible to Black Ocean:Galaxy Outlaws by J S Morin, the whole Black Ocean series of books are fantastic!! And I love my 3D printers as well

I don't get why its ok for DC and Marvel to make knock off characters of each other by changing just enough details, yet when a small artist is doing the same to a larger company they are called lazy, a copycat, or that they are just in it for the money. Why do smaller artist have to play by different rules then larger companies?

I do love these “little” chats 😂😂

There **MUST** be a market for purposefully under cured Nurgle type miniatures make from green sludgy looking resin. I mean, I respect Peach's opinion about designers just copying GW stuff, but could you even imagine it? I'm not a nurgle guy at all, but imagine painting up a heresy era 3d printed death guard army, just waiting for the day they bust open with green goo, falling to chaos and going full nurgle all on their own. And in proper nurgle fashion, it would be a damn mess to clean up.

I'm not saying "Doorgunner Geoff" would make a fantastic mini.... but that would make a fantastic mini

@33:00 This 100%. I have spoken with creators who are terrified of moving away from GW proxies because they are doing so well financially. I mean some of these guys have thousands of patrons, and they would never try their hand at something original. So a big shoutout to creators like Dragon Trapper's Lodge, Bestiarum, and Lord of The Print for going against the grain. If I see another "Space Solider" Or "Green Goblin", I'm going to puke.

The "YOU WOULDN'T STEAL..." ad stole the music from the original artist 😂

103:01 regarding the BT free phone calls, a girl at uni told me about this in the mid nineties. Unfortunately she also told everyone else and her code got terminated 😂

I don't think the prints will get too damaged by UV over time if they are primed and painted, the majority of the UV will not pernitrate the paint. But I would expect the prints to crack and become extremely brittle if exposed to large amounts of UV over a long period of time. With the plug and play aspect, It depends on the printers really, I would say FDM is close to plug and play but depending on the resin printer it also can be. I am lucky enough to have access to a Formlabs 3 printer , yes the price of the printer and resin is extremely high but I just drop a model in, auto orientate , auto support and its comes out perfectly every time. The post processing is still difficult but that aspect would be difficult to stream line unless having a total automated solution.

The Horus Heresy is alot more accessible because of it, especially since a good chunk of the units in Legacies and Exemplary battles don't have rules! Also im not paying £14 for 10 shoulder pads.

Your phone call conversation reminds me of my youth in the US. You would get to record a "name" for a collect call which they would use to ask the other party to accept the call. I would just leave a really brief message to my parents instead "got there safe" and they would decline the charges.

the problem with 3d guns in canada is the pieces of the gun housing magazine trigger and grp and purchasing the pieces barrel springs are purchased together made into guns

As a non English speaker - holy shit they talk fast in this episode lol. Had to slow it down a bit. Awesome content as usual though!

12:30 I think the large part that goes unmentioned here is that printed books for singular games are alright. Great stuff. But in 40k every codex that comes out is only valid for a month or so after release before something gets altered and content in the book is obsolete. There's no need for that. It's a waste of content. Like, just move to a subscription service. Cheaper for us, cheaper for GW. And put out the cards like they are because some people want them physical.

Fascinating bloke!

I don't know if it would come with a whole set of new problems, but with that caveat made, I'd be in favour of FW going to prints rather than moldings. I have one main experience with a large FW model, the Drukhari Tantalus. Multiple parts of it were warped and needed the hot water treatment to get rid of it. There's also a good few bubbles that I had to fill with greenstuff, and in the case of the sail mount, I had to use hot water to heavily reshape it, and then go at it for a good few hours with a file to get the surfaces mated correctly. I'd hope that issues like these could be tweaked out of the STL files, so then each print (failed prints not withstanding) was completely correct each time.

I think you guys, really need to look into 3d printing and how it’s propping up the bloodbowl community 😊

1.35, Pat going on about the would you steal a car thing on old DVDs - still tickles me the company responsible for the ad got done.... for stealing the music. Couldn't make it up...

Isn't GW 3D printed models basically Forge World?

My recent only-games order was a bit of a letdown honestly. I ordered a large (25 minis I think) fantasy football team in resin and a large boat in FDM. The sculpts are gorgeous but the prints were hit and miss. Lots of small supports still on the resin that obscured details in ways that removing them impacted faces and such and the footballs that came with the set were printed about 4x too large so can't be used in game. The FDM boat was about 30% perfect pieces 50% good enough on the outside but terrible internally and 20% really rough on both sides to the point that the pieces needed significant putty work to make usable, and the pieces did not fit flush despite being designed with tabs that are supposed to fit together. Not sure I'll bother trying again.

Nice episode of the Philately phase this week

MMF has been a lifesaver. Right when distribution and storage of 3D models became an issue for me, BAM! there was MMF. They showed up at the right time, with the right service. I can say with full confidence they are one of those services I couldn't live without now. Now if we could get them to reduce their creator fees.... ; )

GW already 3D print stuff. But only on the design side of things. Some of the Khorne Blood Bowl team have visible mould lines on them when you buy them.

Wouldn't the head packs for pat and Geoff be the same sculpts, but painted with different coloured hair 😅😅

16:54 But Geoff, they've got gold leaf on them now...

hmmm how would one use mmf to commission 3d artists? I really need one lol

card at the edge of the table are nice. laughs in star wars legion

I 100% thought the same thing about 2D printing at the beginning. Not just you, Pat! XD

Have MyMiniFactory looked at technology such as Siocast printers that the likes of Warlord and Battlefront use. That sort of techology seems to be more at scale of production rather than more of 3D printing.