Should This Ohio Tourist Train Become Commuter Rail? 

Exactly, transit is meant for EVERYTHING, not just errands or going to work! A touristy railroad like Strasburg and Cuyahoga has their place in society as much as the LIRR and Metra do! As you brought up, Cuyahoga Valley is a National Park, and thus it makes more sense to keep the Cuyahoga Valley Scenic railroad to boost tourism. Look at the success of the Amtrak seasonal Winter Park Express! A stress-free ride from Denver Union Station to the Winter Park Ski Resort without having to worry about traffic, AND it leaves you closer to the slopes than driving! It's a win-win! So the demand for those who wanna see/explore nature is very much there. Heck, many ride the famed California Zephyr just for the natural beauty! On Long Island, you can get to a concert on Jones Beach by transit by simply taking the LIRR's Babylon Branch to Freeport and then the N88X NICE bus to Jones Beach. And on the Montauk Branch, you can take ferries at certain stations to the isolated walkable Fire Island communities, which bring in crowds during the summer but also provide a lifeline for those who live on Fire Island year-round. Besides Fire Island and Jones Beach, other activity centers on the LIRR include Stony Brook for college students, Belmont Park for the annual horserace and Elmont-UBS Arena for Islanders games and concerts, or Mets-Willets Point for Mets games and the US Open.

Having volunteered for CVSR, I fully agree with connecting the Rockside station directly to Cleveland. The locomotives and cars are capable of 60 mph but the current alignment only supports speeds up to 35 mph within the park, and in those areas CVSR typically caps out at 25 mph. They sometimes go faster than 25 between Botzum and Akron Northside when doing deadheading moves on that stretch with just train crew and no passengers which is done on the North Pole Adventure, but that isn’t a typical move. CVSR is arguably the most successful tourist railroad in the United States, moving far higher annual passenger volumes than any other US tourist railroad. Due to its high ridership, I would argue that rail advocates would be foolish to tamper with it. It’s a fun train that people love, and at the same time, it starts the conversation about rail with people who haven’t thought much about trains. I also agree that the CVSR alignment through the park is unsuitable for intercity commuter rail. The corridor would need to be double-tracked to support commuter rail, and the existing tracks would need to be rebuilt to get them to commuter rail speeds. However, due to ecological concerns, a construction project of that nature that would do that in a national park would be problematic. Plus, building something off of the existing Norfolk Southern right-of-way offers a better potential to connect to the Youngstown region as the community grows.

Like you said, making a frequent service via the Norfolk Southern tracks might be more viable, but this line defintiely should be extended to Cleveland too. It serves a different purpose but would still benefit vastly from being linked up to a major city like Cleveland, providing easy and convenient access to the nationalpark, as well as an alright way for people in the small communities in the national park to access the big city.

The Canton extension was also closed because the tracks washed out there too. The railway yearns to fall into the Cuyahoga it seems

The National Park Service would never allow the speeds required; not to mention the number of trains pers day for a commuter line to take over the CVSR to be worth it. You have to remember that the current operations are preformed with the blessings of the NPS. It would be easier, better, and probably more cost effective to just negotiate with NS and CSX to set up a Metra operation in the area.

This is the route and potential station stops I could see on a Canton-Cleveland corridor: -Canton -Reedurban -Massillon -Canal Fulton -Barberton -Kenmore -South Akron -Akron Central -Chapel Hill -Cuyahoga Falls -Graham Road -Hudson -Twinsburg Road -Macedonia -Bedford -Garfield Heights -Slavic Village -Tri-C Campus District -Tower City Center

If it became an officially sanctioned commuter line, it would inevitably mean officials insisting on exerting their official control.

Thank You for sharing this video. Yes, "Cuyahoga" is a word meaning "Crocked River" given the name by the Iroquois Native Indians who inhabited this area.

I 100% agree. Given the vast large amount of suburban sprawl in Cleveland/Akron I certainly think we need a commuter rail, but I think converting the CVSR to commuter rail would not be a very bright idea when theirs a whole rail right of way right through the southeast suburbs all the way to Akron. Getting rid of the Scenic Railroad would be a major loss to the region as there are very few National Parks in the eastern US that have that.

For reasons mostly of unfamiliarity and convenience, commuter rail is a hard sell in NE Ohio. People here are very car reliant, for better or (mostly) for worse. Most can't even spend a weekend partying in Put-in-Bay without spending a small fortune to take their cars on the ferry to the island.....where golf cart rentals are plentiful, there's very few places to drive a car, and *nowhere* to park one. Yet, on any summer weekend, the ferry terminals both ways are lined up sometimes for a mile or more of vehicles. Even on an island where you CAN'T DRIVE HOME without waiting for the ferry either way, many subscribe to the mentality of "I can't be without my car." Commuting is the same way around here. Cleveland RTA has a system of "Rapids" similar to the el train in Chicago, but unlike the el or the subway in NYC, it's not widely used by the general public (especially suburbanites) unless there's a major event or game going on downtown. Whereas you can hop on the el and see folks from all economic and social classes headed to work, school, wherever, Cleveland's Rapid is used mainly by the poor who don't have vehicles, and they've become an attractive place for the homeless to sleep. We ride the Red Line rapid when going to events in Cleveland and we're glad we do, but it's not always as pleasant as it could or should be.

Agreed. As someone who lives right next to the CVSR, its trackway and route is definitely not suited for high-traffic commuter rail. As mentioned in the video the portion of track north of the Peninsula stop gets washed out relatively frequently, and most of the route goes through the national park with no stops in populated areas that would make it useful as a commute between anywhere other than a direct line from Akron to Cleveland. There are *a lot* of suburbs between the two cities just outside of the park and many other partially used or unused rail right of ways that would better serve those populations. We should definitely look into making a commuter rail line in the area to alleviate the atrocious traffic between the two cities, but the CVSR is much better suited to what it’s doing now: tourism, historic preservation, and convenience travel for bikers on the Towpath.

I live right near that stretch of abandoned track on the Norfolk-Southern route. This area (Stow/Falls) has a not-insignificant number of people who work in Cleveland. My own commute to work on the west side of Cleveland takes about 45-50 minutes, and involves paying for the toll road or braving the traffic on i-480, which is one of the more dangerous drives across the area in my experience. I've had more close calls on that bridge and at Grayton going East than just about anywhere else in the region. All this is to say that I'm sort of shocked that we don't have any train routes anymore, and would love to see those tracks fixed and running again!

I live very near this, my house is actually quite close to one of the old stations. It will never be a commuter line. The national park gets millions of visitors a year and having a train going 50 miles an hour through the valley with 100's of people hiking and walking around is a recipe for disaster. Now using the NS line that might work. If you ever ride again try the California Zepher Bubble car great views of the park. Also once it is open the ride north takes you through the area the Bald Eagle nests, another reason the park would never give it up for a commuter train.

Love the area and fully agree with your assessment of the rail rout. The "National" park aspect is for the preservation of natural areas so development of this problematic stretch of railway isn't efficient for moving people full time, but a great option if there's an emergency. We're elves living in the trees here around the Great Lakes 👽🗿👽🗿👽🇺🇸😎

Akron was founded by Simon Perkins and Paul Williams in 1825 at the summit of the then developing Ohio and Erie Canal. The name is derived from the Ancient Greek word ἄκρον/ákron, meaning a summit or high point. It was briefly renamed South Akron after Eliakim Crosby founded nearby North Akron in 1833, until both merged into an incorporated village in 1836! Cuyahoga Valley was originally designated as a National Recreation Area in 1974, then redesignated as a national park in 2000. It remains the only national park that originated as a national recreation area! In 2022, it was the ninth-most visited national park in the US, attracting more visitors than Glacier did that year! Botzum used to be a community! There were two warehouses, a store, and a hotel there in 1827. Botzum was platted in 1836 on 100 acres as Niles by Peter Voris and some of his associates. The village was never actually built, however, due to the Panic of 1837. Eventually the lots were sold off, one of them to George Botzum. Hence the name! In 1866, the Buckeye post office opened up, and the railroad depot in town was called Botzum. The name of the post office was then changed to Botzum in 1893 to match the depot. Akron bought the land in the 1920s for a sewage treatment plant

I rode the last commuter train on the NS line you mentioned starting from 55th and Euclid. It was then the Pennsylvania RR. My mother and uncle rode the B&O from Cleveland to Peninsula to stay with relatives.

Excellent informative narration

The Cuyahoga? That’s lit!

Looking at that map, it goes from Cleveland to the middle of f-ing nowhere, Bumfruck, Ohio. At least run the tracks all the way to Cinci so there’s something to do when we get there.

A passenger rail corridor from Cleveland to Akron has been floated in various forms for decades, but this particular corridor should absolutely not be made into a commuter rail corridor. I lived in the Cuyahoga Valley for a couple years, just up the road from that weird sewage pipe you pointed out. This railroad doesn't really go anywhere useful for a daily commuter. Well, that's not entirely true, the Winking Lizard in Peninsula is amazing, and it drops you off at the head for the Towpath, a phenomenal recreational path through the park. But I wouldn't have reason to commute there.

I wish I had known you were coming to Akron, I live in the area and could have given you a tour. At various times in my life I've been involved with the Cuyahoga Valley Line/CVSR since it began operating in 1975, and am very familiar with it and it's history. Not sure if you knew or not, but the ADA accessible car on the train is a former MBTA de-powered ex-B&M RDC. I can tell you that passenger rail between Cleveland and Akron has been debated to death for over 40 years by those of us in the rail passenger advocacy community here. The National Park Service does not want regular commuter or intercity passenger service on the line, especially at the higher speeds that would be necessary to make it viable. The route that has long been contemplated for that service had been the former Akron Secondary of Conrail/PC/Pennsy (nee CA&C) from Akron Jct. to Hudson (the first railroad to reach Akron, in 1854). It was rail banked and owned by Akron Metro RTA for that purpose. Unfortunately, it was a temping target for the dreaded rails-to-trails vultures, who pressured local officials to allow it to be made into a bike trail, so now it's going to be virtually impossible to get it reconverted to rail use (there is not enough room for a dual-purpose RoW).

This is a concept that I have thought about much since the announcement of Amtrak's Connects US plan a couple of years ago. I share your hesitation with converting it into commuter service if you are thinking of something such as Metra and the MBTA (a single unit with 5 or 6 coaches). However, I think that a commuter service using something similar to an RDC (such as the one CVSR already has) would not be out of the question. Also, it would be worth exploring the possibility of extending the service south to Canton (with many shopping and entertainment venues as the destination, such as Belden Village and Hall of Fame Village).

My hope is that the new Amtrak train from Cincinnati to Cleveland stops in Akron.

Oh gee, how about the Cleveland=Baltimore NIGHT EXPRESS? Overnight times of running no issue to the tourist operation! But I also think the Erie Lackawanna Route to Youngstown should run too. Connections to NY of course. The route of the Cleveland Lake Cities.

Good point about path through park land not being close to homes and businesses. Norfolk Southern route is better going through suburbs of Stow, Hudson, Twinsburg/Macedonia, & Bedford

Hey my hometown! (although i’ve lived in Pittsburgh for 16+ years) Commuter rail has been proposed off and on there for years- i think in the 90s there was some momentum- but the bedroom communities in the northern part of the county killed it. :( Instead, METRO RTA added express bus service from the bus station to downtown cleveland and additional employment centers- and it remains to this day.

i do believe this is the line that came down to canton. but seeing canton cant have nothing nice, someone had to destroy it.

I’d love the idea but it’s just not safe to. The railroads are unmaintained, the rain erodes the tracks, it’s just not possible unless CVSR begins to maintain their railroad.

CONGRATS CALEB

Cleveland Ohio Railroad system can go East, West and South. It would open up A lot of possibilities to live and Travel. Yet, the cost and maintenance are the issues which hold up this dream.

Yes it should.

Cuyahoga meant "burning river" as it used to self combust during the 1970s.

The Napa Valley and Filmore-Western Railroads in California should be used for commuter rail; the Akron route should use the NS tracks. Frankly, though, I don't see why commuter and tourist services are mutually exclusive.

Finnally my home statr

The answer is yes. I live in Canton and wrote an op-ed about this 30 years ago. This train is a waste as a tourist line only and could be really valuable as a commuter line.

I have ridden the CVSR. I am sad to see that it is closed from Peninsula to Rockside. Did you happen to ask if and when it will be operational again? There is a small museum at the last station before Rockside. I agree that it should not be turned into Commuter Rail.

I am wondering if they should do that in Lowell ma. What do you think

The building at 5:40 is a bike shop that does rentals

Yes

sorry about that

It doesn't need to 'become' a commuter train, but if the service frequency goes up (especially during peak commuting times), and the stations are easily accessible, then it would become a de-facto commuter train. It seems profitable the way it operates now, with what looks like one train and one driver. Costs would go up significantly if there were more trains and drivers involved. It reminds me a little of the one-car and two-car trains in Japan which serve very rural communities. The interiors remind one of subway cars like in New York, with bench seating and overhead straps to hold on to. Since the Cuyahoga Valley Scenic travels through a national park, I think it makes sense to keep it the way it is, but invest more heavily in connectivity at each station. In Japan for example, you can always connect to another line and continue your journey. That way riders do not need to drive to the station. It would involve engaging local communities to invest in reviving the short line railroads that many of them still have for passenger services. If you can pay a bus driver to drive a bus back and forth along a fixed route, why can't you pay a train driver? The operating expenses of a One-Person Train Operation can't be that much higher.

Commuter service would never work here. The NPS would not allow such use. It goes against their preservation practices. It's actually strange to see such infrastructure in use at a national park. There are any "cultural" resources present at Cuyahoga Valley that are unique to this park. Commuter rail would have to be along a different route, but our addiction to cars would make that very difficult to implement.

Interurbans will never come back - sadly, CVSRR is not able to even provide service to Rockside.

Boston Hawk? Or Boston Heights?

can you please forward this message to miles: This is gonna be a long one, so I totally understand if you ignore this. TLDR: I first want to put out, I am a huge fan of Miles in Transit. 5PM EST Wednesday is my favorite thing ever. You have inspired some of my planned trips (Greyhound to Boston, Amtrak to Providence--your points run was very great). You are a very influential person within the transit online world. Watching least used Amtrak, great races, "apparently a trip reports", stupid deviationfests or random content is just so iconic w/ you. So now that I have put this out, here is really why I am here. I want to talk Middlesex County person to Middlesex County person. You being from Cambridge, MA a very well transit connected city has made you such an expert on what transit should look like in neighboring cities/close suburbs. I resided outside of Framingham, MA a while back. I'm pretty sure you know what I am talking about. You made a blog post on it in 2017 (where you gave it a 7--I was incredibly disappointed that we didn't fare better but at least we were better than back bay) and have created multiple MWRTA posts. Back to Framingham Station, it is incredibly terrible. For one of the busiest commuter rail stations as well as one served by Amtrak it deserves more. However, it doesn't seem like Framingham is doing anything. Similarly, MWRTA operates minibuses around the MetroWest area. Supposedly. these buses have a schedule, but they seem to show up when they do like SEPTA trains. They also operate microtransit. Me personally, in theory believes in microtransit however it doesn't work in practice. It is too reliable and, in most places, where it is effective it is too costly. I truly believe that microtransit doesn't have a future in Framingham. What could they do to improve this? Take Newton MA. It borders Boston so some villages are covered by the GLD. It also has 3 commuter rail stops. Alongside that, MBTA runs buses into here and so does the MWRTA. Newton has a population of 87k people. Framingham has about 72k people. Framingham has some major "neighborhoods" such as Coburnville, Downtown, City Center, Pheasant Hill, Nobscot and Saxonville. Adding a lightrail-streetcar system to Framingham would be expensive and would take a ton of work. They could operate bigger buses like the LRTA but that could require re-routes and would take up space in the Banana Lot that isn't there. Now if we got rid of the MWRTA that would mean that a lot of other services in smaller cities would be cancelled and that would affect a ton of people. What if we moved the MWRTA hub to Natick Mall (biggest mall in New England--I couldn't find any restaurants w/ combo 1 there at least 2 auntie annes are at this mall). Natick Mall is a preexisting major transfer point. However, this could send some buses onto a deviationfest (not that you wouldn't mind). What about commuter rail? Could Framingham use any commuter rail extensions? Could it be the hub to a new Commuter rail agency? Now if there were more commuter rail lines then definitely station renovations would be necessary. There aren't enough tracks. Preexisting tracks connect onto Fitchburg/Leominster as well as Central Falls RI. I don't see commuter rail service being necessary to these cities. These and other tracks are also owned by CSX so delays will arise just like the MBTA Framingham/Worcester Commuter Rail in the 90s. The Framingham and Lowell Railroad used to have a line through Sudbury, Maynard & Westford. This is a line that would prove incredibly practical as many people commute between these cities. However, this track has been demolished so it is not feasible. Yeah, Lowell has much better transit. On another note, I wish MBTA still had commuter rail to Nashua & Manchester as well as Westerly, RI. So, if you made it this far, Miles, please give me your thoughts on what Framingham should do w/ transit? Do you agree w/ me? Do you think the MWRTA is effective? Do you think that Framingham could get Light Rail? I would much oblige your insights.

I am sure Norfolk Southern would be more than glad to share their tracks with Commuter Rail. If the track is improved that would also benefit NS and their customers and even the relaid line might be of use to them, plus they would be grateful for receiving payments toward the upkeep of their track. It could be that Commuter Rail might purchase the line from them and NS could then pay for the use of it. A very positive development that would be.

I never thought that I would ever see the words "ohio tourist" in my life...

There is another line that connects near Northside so the track throw Medina could have commuter service (just need to build a connector to reach Fulton Airport)-where the tourist part gets some upgrades so they can maybe run a few express trains a day as it would already cut time just deviating all that way. Also this would split from my Raveena branch at Hudson (with 2-3 stops left) and would add Stow, Cuyahoga Falls, Akron-Arlington St and Akron-University [probably about a 20min walk to the Northside Complex])-but then should the Medina Branch be extended all the way to Canton or make Akron-Canton a separate train that has a few express trains onto the CVSR in a more Amtrak type of scheduling-so not commuter centric

As a Clevelander, I do think we need the commuter rail and as you said the NS line would probably be best. Also love what you said at the end. I have been advocating and trying to get people to understand that having a car-free way to get to a national park from the heart of Cleveland would be a huge benefit, especially to the 25% of the population who don't own cars. You could also have the occasional commuter that takes it to Akron as we are sister cities. Maybe just a rush hour train on week days as test till we get a real commuter line. I work with people who live in Akron but work downtown Cleveland. I also know the trains can run a little faster than they normally do as I once took it back from Akron to Rockside on a train that was 30 minutes late in the evening(due to having to throw someone off). The train was going much faster to make up time. Anyways, there would be so many benefits to extending the CVSR.

The answer is a large NO. CVSR lacks proper PTC equipment, enough locomotives, miniumum class II trackage and up to date rolling stock to begin commuter service. Trackage rights with Class 1's wouldn't help either. At that point it's no longer a tourist railroad as it should be.

Proud of you saying Cuyahoga correctly. Many get it wrong. Also, cool to see you in our area

I live in northeast Ohio and I say leave the Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railway ALONE! Anything the government touches turns into excrement. Why destroy yet another treasure, it's pointless.

NO !

I say do it and hopefully it will be the catalyst to faster, more convenient travel to Cleveland from other states. Cars cannot continue their stronghold over more environmentally better options for travel. We should be able to wiz around the states on high speed trains like they do in Europe.

Commuter rail you use the mainlines and the branch between Hudson and Cayuhoga Falls, where people actually live along the line. With that route, you even have the option of running into either Tower City or the lakefront station.

The answer is a resounding, YES! But also I'd continue to operate this train too because it looks like an awesome attraction and way to get around the park itself... Ohio has all the bones to be a great railroading state again. From population and urban density to existing infrastructure that just needs some TLC, plus it's probably one of the better states when it comes to climate change preparedness being on the Great Lakes and away from the ocean...

Years ago there was a commuter train between Akron and Cleveland on the old Erie-Lackawanna. I assume that rail line has since been abandoned. However if the Norfolk Southern line could be upgraded and used that would make the most sense. Keep the line through the National park as a tourist line. Maybe at peak times there should be more frequency and it would be nice to extend it to Cleveland so people without cars could access the park. In the short term maybe a dedicated shuttle bus could be tried from Cleveland to the northern station to provide service and test the market before investing in repairing the northern part of the line.

Sounds like a good idea until it gets overrun by the homeless and criminal element, which would kill tourism. The stations it stops at have no value other than for tourism. Getting expanded parking nearby would be difficult, and I can't see speed increasing very much,.

Get real no one rides the busses so rail is out of the question. Amtrak failed here how many times. The clue is most rails have to have government funding to survive. A clue it is a failed business.

I think use the NS track and buff them up to go as fast as 100 mph and use DMUs

The tourist railroad definitely should be extended to Cleveland Union Station where it will (or ought to) meet Amtrak and the Cleveland heavy and light railways. But there should be commuter rail on other tracks too, but the lines can run through the station in Cleveland and outbound on another track, getting people to their jobs.

Extending it to Cleveland and running more frequently would be a great supplement to commuter rail. It stops at different locations and it's more laid-back and tourist focused, but it could basically become two competing lines and that would make both of them more useful. Where I live in Kyoto, this is exactly what the JR and Kintetsu lines do, both operating a north-south line from Kyoto to Nara but on different sides of the suburbs. Both are commuter focused but Kintetsu eventually takes you to Nara Park (extremely popular tourist destination) while JR eventually takes you to the Nara Starion transit hub. They're both very useful!

It will fail.

It should be an intercity route I feel like

Ohio is a JOKE for Passenger rail. The CVSR volunteers are a CLASS ACT.

I like you're idea of keeping the tourist train in the park while using the NS line that passes through more populus areas for coummuter or some kind of intercity/regional service. I also like the idea of extending the tourist train to Cleveland to give access to the National Park to those in the city and surroundings who don't drive or would rather just take the train because its more relaxing or if they just want to be part of fighting climate change and environmental destruction. It's crazy we require people to have cars to go see nature when autos are one of the top if not the number one thing destroying our planet with a laundry list of planet-destroying externatilites that can be tied back to them. It's also inequitable to deny access to these public places for people that can't drive due to medical conditions, age or income. I think it if does get built there should be some kind of discounted fare program to ensure all can access this service.

They already own some of the best PV cars that used to run behind Amtrak. And what you're asking is is sort of what I'd like to do between Iowa City and Cedar Rapids

Wouldn't it be awesome to ride a regional or commuter train that uses old equipment? Although it's unrealistic, it's a kind of pipe dream for me. I agree now knowing that there is a parallel NS line that could be used for commuter service and leaving the tourist operations untouched. A lot of the Midwest could benefit greatly from regional rail. Thanks!

Caleb u should review the Cleveland State Line with miles because it runs every 30 minutes, has rush hour branches, rush hour bus lanes. It’s like a worse version of Pace’s Pulse. Also on weekends it’s runs every hour. It used 60 foots on weekdays and 40 foots on weekends. The 60 foots have CSL Branding.

Ohio 💀 💀 and a lot of ohio cites does not have rail transit, swag like ohio down in ohio swag in ohio down in ohio swag in ohio

Akron's sewage gets turned into compost

On Apple Maps, it designed a commuter railroad.