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It has most definitely NOT been the long run that's done me in. Every injury I've gotten in the last 4 years (and I didn't get injured before then) has been due to speedwork. Plantar Fasciitis, Stress fracture, tender joints - they all had very concrete start dates and it has always been a speedwork session. Intervals being the primary culprit. So, in my case, the long run is the lesser evil.
the way to prevent this is to build up neuromuscular fitness during your base period by slowly incorporating strides 1-2 times per week after your easy runs, doing hill sprints once a week, and also add in some strength work to your regimen. But it all must be done in the base phase. You have to do the training, to be able to do the training.
For every study that claims that the long run is not necessary, there are equal number of studies that claim that the long run is necessary. It comes down to what works for you. I enjoy my Sunday morning long run because it gets me out of the house, and I get my best meditation when I run. My post long run reward is a giant steak, eggs & bacon. Thanks, Matt. 📏
Haha! Yep! You’re right about there always being an opposite view! It’s handy for me making videos because in a couple months I can make another video about the importance of the long run! 😁
This ironic dichotomy of having experts on both sides of the spectrum reach opposite conclusions reminds me of another popular debate except in the vaccine debate one side actively collaborates with media to erase the other side.
But is this not based on the type of running you’re doing because it seems pretty unanimous that if you are doing any kind of endurance running that volume is the greatest tool
I break up my workouts almost every time now. Do some in the morning and some after lunch, and that’s not just for long runs. After an ankle injury I’ve been using this to ramp myself by up and it’s been pretty damn effective. Also if you want that cardio benefit of a long run for aerobic capacity then maybe do a run and then a bike ride back to back
This is good advice! If we’re just looking for that cardio load then it doesn’t matter how we get it. I’m glad to hear breaking up your workouts is going so well! 👊🏽
It’s my favorite run of the week and has never given me any problems. I find it a perfect opportunity for deep prayer and meditation. So I’ll stick with my long runs! Do what works for you and train wisely.
My long runs are not more than 26km or 2 hours, but the detail is that my training is divided into easy runs and threshold training, just that. My easy runs are no more than 15km, relaxed and at 4:50 min/km; but my thresholds are 15/20km at 4:20 min/km, and I can do 24km thresholds. I run 5 days a week, very rarely do double shifts, I don't do hills, I don't do repetitions and I have been injury-free for years. My best marathon time is 3h22min, next year I want to go below 3h10min.
If your easy pace is 4:50 and your marathon pace is 4:47 (based on a 3:33 marathon time), then something is little-bit of here. Your marathon pace is just a little-bit too close to your easy pace IMO. Maybe you are running your easy runs wit a HR that is a little-bit too high and should slow down a little-bit in order to stay within zone 2. Or, if not, maybe you should try to increase your endurance and work towards slightly longer runs within your marathon training and/or work on your fat burning capacity.
You're right, but here's the point, here the minimum temperature is around 30° degrees C so basing training on heart rate doesn't usually work for me, according to my garmin my workouts are in zone 3 (average 144 bpm) but really I'm going very well, it's not a demanding pace. When I ran 3:22 the temperature was around 22°C with 90% humidity, I adjusted my pace to finish around 3:20 and not suffer. The important thing is the progression, I am in no rush to go below 3 hours, I know I can achieve it and I want to do it step by step.@@davidosolo
@@rodrigogorosito4206 If you are training at relatively higher temperatures that confirms the idea that you are running your easy runs at a HR that is too high even more. On the other side you seem to be telling that you are able of a faster marathon: a 3:10 for example. That would be run at a 4:30 pace and seems to be more in line with an easy 4:50 pace. Although you should probably slow down those easy runs to at least 5:00 pace because of the heat (or just don’t call them easy anymore and be aware that those are moderate runs in the context of your training schedule!). For sub 3:00 you should probably be running at least about 70 miles a week, I think. How many miles are you doing per week?
Great topic, I think you have to find your running sweet spot different for every person. I think I have tried everything, run 5 days a week, run 3 days a week, run 2x day. I have found cross training the most beneficial and those are when my PBs happen and less injury. The Parker V an elite cross country runner only runs 3 times a week but cross trains with swimming and elliptical, i feel that is great approach.
You’re 100% right about it being individual and we all have to figure out what works best for us. I’m also a big fan of cross training. I think I’d be injured more often if I didn’t do it. I’m glad you’ve found what works best for you! It seems like that’s more than half the battle.
Thank you for telling me that Camille Herron and I have something in common. I do 1 long run a month, sometimes 2. As you get older, 1 week recovery between LRs isn’t enough. I’ll do something equally as long on other weekends, like cycling or kickbiking.
You do! 🤣 It’s quite an ego boost to think I do something similar to such a legend! I’m with you on needing the extra time for recovery. While I can still knock out weekly long runs, I notice I don’t feel as good as when I do one every 10-14 days. 👊🏽
The past 3 years I’ve rarely done any long runs. For me it usually feels like too much stress at once and it’s too hard to recover from. In my training blocks what I’ve done is 2 “longer” runs, Saturday and Sunday. which together equal roughly 20-30% weekly mileage. I’ve been faster than ever too, not because I don’t do long runs, because I found something that work for me. I also finally found consistency with strength and balance exercises and was able to do a 1:14:19 half last year (my best race ever!) Forgot to mention I do the Saturday longer run easy and add some high intensity into the Sunday typically.
this is really interesting concept, how long are your semi long runs if i may ask?? and how do you think i can transfer this idea to the marathon distance??
I love long runs. In the winter months when there aren’t many races around here, the long runs are my personal challenge. The best thing is they don’t cost anything other than time. I will probably run a 20+ miler on Christmas Day.
Man, there are so many factors to consider here: individual athletes’ diets, recovery habits, body size, muscle twitch composition, pacing discipline (many run too fast for easy days), and history. It’s hard to believe one study could take so many things into consideration. I train quite a few runners for various distances (with marathon being the most common). Two of my fastest guys respond very differently to the long run and to volume in general. One is not performing his best unless he’s doing 80 miles/week with LRs in the 18-23 mile range. The other begins to fall apart at
🤣 You’re right about there being so many variables, and I doubt the study considered them all. You’ve got some great insight into individual differences in training. More people need to know that they will respond differently to someone they’re following on Strava!
I was simply finding myself getting bored after 2 hrs of running. Then I just changed the long runs into mini workouts, 1 mile repeats at MP, with 1 min slower pace etc…. &/or trails. Now I love them. I look forward to them every Sunday. BTW. I’m 56 avg 50-60 miles per week at base training. Cheers.
You figured out a secret to make the long runs fly by! What distance to you build up to when training for a marathon? I also maintain 50-60 during my base but only get up to 70-75 in peak weeks.
I believe (at the moment) that the body wants to recharge entirely between each training. If you run short every day, your body will adapt with muscle loss as a consequence. Doing a longer run instead of some shorter requires a bigger body/battery. Ultimately you change between intense hillruns and slow long runs with several days of rest in between. Makes you feel the best. If your apatite is low or you feeling low find out which stretching you need and execute. GOOD LUCK!
Do not increase weekly volume too fast. At the beginning I would recommend to run several shorter sessions. The long run should be adapted according to the total weekly volume.
I believe diet may play a big part. I had the privilege to spend 3 days with Alan Murray and Janette Murray - Waklin. They are raw food Fruitarians. In their 60s run around Australia, doing 43 km per day for 366 days. They have run 500 ultra marathons in total. Janette is still running and is in her mid 70s. They have a book on the Australian run, Running Out Of Time.
You're the first to mention diet in this stream, but I'm sure you're right. Diet plays an outsized role in our running (and all activities), including our risk of injury. Alan and Janette are inspirational, for sure, and are definite motivation to stay healthy as we get older.
Yes, it's true. Too many long runs eventually lead to injuries. I have been running for 4 years and this year I decided to run my first marathon. In preparation I did 4 runs of more than 30 km. Plus the weekly average of km was 80-90. Result? A big back pain that has kept me out of action for more than a week. Conclusion: I will stick to my beloved half marathons! A half marathon a week keeps the doctor away!😂
Absolutely! I think for any form of physical training (e.g. running, swimming or weight lifting) the magic happens when we rest, fuel and recover afterwards. If we do another tough session before we've fully recovered from the last one - at best we're not going to get the most out of either; or worse, we could get injured. An absolute game changer for me was realising I don't have to train on a weekly schedule. I don't have to do intervals every Wednesday, or long run every Sunday. Now the majority of my runs are slow and chatty, with a sprinkling of intervals/hills/long runs (roughly every 10-14 days). I take account of the stresses and strains placed on me by other areas of life. I'm feeling sooooo much better for it! :)
I’m so glad to hear about your game-changing realization that we don’t have to be tied to traditional (or at least typical) training patterns. I’ve also found good results with a long run every two weeks. Yes, the magic happens when we rest but for. Lot of us this known concept is far easier said than done! Are you training for anything now?
@@its_Matt_B_ Oh yes!! Resting well is much easier said than done, but something I'm trying hard to prioritise. Nope, no particular race in mind at the moment, just generally trying to improve my baseline fitness. Having said that there is a beautiful half coming up in March I'd been vaguely thinking of doing again. Now I'm typing, I think I'm going to start training for that more specifically. Thank you for the inspiration! 😃🏃♀️💕
@@lmack6596 🤣 I’m happy to unknowingly push you towards your March HM. I actually prefer training over racing, but I find a couple races a year keeps me from slacking and just enjoying easy miles too much!
Number 3, ABSOLUTELY. Especially on those days when you don't necessarily feel up for a long run or during the run you feel like you're a 4 cylinder instead of a V8. The long run isn't just about getting miles into your legs, it's learning about your body and building mental resilience.
My best running happened after a winter of very little running. My winter workouts were a combination of two workouts 4x a week, 45-60 minutes on a treadmill, 45 minutes on a stair climber, 50 minutes of spin class and then 3 hours of cross country skiing one day on the weekend. I went out and ran an 81 minute half marathon when the snow finally melted with no "long runs". I think I did two 10 mile runs just to get the feel of the road in my legs but it was all aerobic volume with spin class for intensity and XC skiing for the long workout.
Nicely done and this is great news for those of us that can't put the kind of run volume we think we should. Killian does the same thing. He skis all winter and crushes it when the snow melts!
I used to love long runs. Particularly when I wasn't married with a kid. Now it's just more difficult to make the time commitment for a weekend long run; even if I start very early in the morning. With my interest in long runs declining, I'm planning to stick to shorter races this year.....10 miles or less.
I get it! Going out for several hours at a time just isn't doable for a lot of people. You're good to change your focus! My wife often tells me "when you don't get what I want, to change what you want."
I'm a middle of the pack marathon/50k runner, and I rarely run a long run more than about 15 miles. Any more than that and I feel like I'm not able to recover and all my runs the following week will be lower quality. Consistently getting in good weekly mileage totals seems to be the best way for me to keep my fitness up, rather than one hard long run.
This is a great way to keep that run fitness and solid example of the importance of knowing yourself. This hits close to home as I did 17 miles on trails with vert on Saturday and my legs still feel like I raced a marathon. My legs are singing! 😂
I run 6 days a week but on five of those I run twice a day. Yesterday was 4 x 800 easy intervals and later 20 x100m very fast strides at the track (total 8 miles). At 76 I find that easier to recover from, I can run a higher weekly mileage without fatigue and I get the double HGH boost.
On paper it sounds like a heavy load, but I'm glad it works for you and that it's easier to recover from! Wow! Good job knocking out those 20x100 sprints! 💪🏽
@@its_Matt_B_ No fatigue this morning and it's my fourth week back after injury. Not sprints but around 90%, best pace last night 4:40. I must confess to being an outlier. Lab measured RE same as a group of elite Kenyans, HRrest 39, endurance genes (2 copies), large lungs, testosterone double an average 18yo, biologically 57. No excuses!
I just got done with a long run yesterday.(my leg is better). 14 miles at 8:30 average pace. I enjoy my long runs. I don't run them too hard. Just zone 2or3. I would say long runs are necessary. To any new runners, I would say long runs are a necessity.
I'm so glad to hear your leg is better and that you're knocking out solid runs! 👊🏽 Yeah, I would agree that LRs are necessary, especially when we're going for specific time/distance goals!
📏 Long runs are my favorite workout! So nice to be outside and enjoy running for a longer period of time and at a not too strenuous pace, and I’m usually with friends and running to places I don’t usually go during the week. I’m no expert, but I agree with you and think they’re fine on weekly basis as long as the overall weekly load isn’t too much.
A few others have also mentioned being able to go places you don't normally go because you're running longer. This keeps things fresh! Also, the social aspect can't be understated! Even if the long run were really not ideal for us, it would probably be worth it to spend that time with friends outside! Thanks for the 📏! How was your trip? Are you back home? How long were you away? What was your favorite part?
I agree on all your long run comments! My trip was really fun! I’m back in NYC now, and it’s always good to be here for the holidays. I was gone for 18 days, which was great! I would say the scenery in Patagonia was my favorite part. Oh and not having to go to work. 😂 I hope you have a great holiday season!
Arthur Lydiard knew the 2hr longrun at a Comfortable Aerobic Intensity (75-88% lt2 hr) stimulates the Mitochondria to be very dense with Enzymes which improve Aerobic ability & Fatty Acid Metabolism. 2hrs 20min is a great time on legs to facilitate these adaptations.
I don’t think they’re overrated. I think they are over used sometimes. However, everyone is different. Obviously, if the body is being overworked and it keeps getting injured, rest is a must and maybe that includes cutting down on long runs or cutting them out for a while. It all depends on the individual.
This is great Matt. As for the long run, as a 70.3 and 13.1 Athlete, I think it’s important as part of sport specific training to get as close as possible to the distance you are running, but I agree that doing too many long runs, frequently, could be counter productive for training. I like long runs, depending on how long, in moderation. Also-thx for the running tips!
Know thyself! It really depends on your muscle fiber/V02 makeup (in regards to getting faster). For a runner who has a high % of slow twitch fiber, and a naturally higher V02, the long run is not as neccessary. For the fast twitch runner he/she will need more long runs/higher mileage. And I do believe doubles are fine. That's not to say that a long run isn't helpful to all runners, it's just determining how often you need to do them. Also, if you're not able to get tested, there's a great way to determine whether you need more distance/aerobic work or more speed based training. Simply calculate the percentage of how well you maintain your speed at the doubling of distance. So compare 5k to 10k, or half marathon to marathon. World class runners can usually maintain 94 to 96% of their velocity going from the shorter to the longer distance. If you are above 92%, as a recreational runner, that's really good! So that type of runner would most likely see more improvement from doing a few less miles, but doing more threshold/short interval type training. This could apply to slow twitch type runners, but also someone who has trained for a long time, but has somewhat stagnated.
Know thyself is key! I don't have close comparable race distances, but I did calculate the difference between a recent 5k and a recent marathon. It was 17%. I have a HM coming up in a few weeks so i'm excited to see what my velocity percentage is compared to my marathon. Thanks for the comment!
Good luck in your half! That should give you a good read. Also, the %'s tend to skew slightly upward at the longer distances. The highest number I ever checked was for Paula Radcliffe when she had the world record, of 2:16:xx, in the marathon. Her half pr was right around 1:07. She maintained 98% of her velocity!! Insane.
In recent years I still run 9-10 miles most days, but most days I will split the distance into two or three runs. A day might be an easy 3 mile run into the office, then a 3 mile run on steep hills for cardio at lunch, then a 3 mile run home at the end of the day. Once in a while I do a longer run of 8-10 miles. My goal is 60 miles per week. Since I have been doing this, my injuries have stopped. Currently I am about 5500 miles from the last injury. It’s also easier fitting three shorter runs into my schedule than a single long run. By the way, I have trouble keeping my weight up. I eat an extra 40,000 calories per month to maintain my weight. I guess I am not a typical 76 year old. Currently, I am at 2,772 miles this year, shooting for 3,000 miles by the end of the year.
I know you run often each day because it seems like I see you every single time I open my Strava! 🤣 Nice going with your approach to 3000 miles this year! Due to tapering and down time after my last marathon, it doesn't look like i'll reach 3k miles. Oh well! 🤷🏻♂
@@its_Matt_B_I think we run to have fun, not just meeting a goal like mileage. I did not start the year thinking I was going to run 3,000 miles, it just started to happen. But now that I am so close, I need to pass 3,000 miles! When people around here ask how much I run, their jaws drop when I tell them, and when I tell them my age, their jaws about hit the ground. Will be 77 in March. One of these weeks I want to run 76 miles in one week. I have hit 65 miles in a week so it is doable. I still feel like I am 24 years old. I have a new running buddy. He is 31 and we run 4 to 6 times per week together. Running with another runner is much more fun. People must think I am his grandfather when we run past.😂
@@its_Matt_B_ Well the good news about cramping up mile 20 is I finished but I wasn't too tired lol. So I signed up for another marathon in a few weeks. Looks like you did well. Keep up the good work my friend 🙂
@@its_Matt_B_ a local BQ in Spokane Windermere marathon and the Jack n jill In Snoqualmie Wa in July. That race is a fast BQ and very fun down the mountain
Just here to confirm: I don't run to eat more, but I absolutely enjoy the necessity to eat more. Pancake breakfast before the long run ftw. I'm also doing my long run on Saturdays, and cross training 1 hour on Sundays to reduce the impact on my feet but still get my cardio in (I do 1 hour of indoor machines: Echobike + RowErg + SkiErg). Research shows that 2h to 2.5h of long run is enough, there are not only diminishing returns if you go beyond but also a much higher chance of injuries. So only when prepping for a marathon, I would go beyond 2.5h tbh.
Yeah, I've heard of that research saying more than 2.5 hours leads to greater injury risk without the fitness benefits. I love how you put your running/eating relationship. "I don't run to eat more, but I absolutely enjoy the necessity to eat more" is a gem, and I may borrow that from time to time. I haven't heard it put that way before, but it captures how I feel perfectly! Thank you!
Great info. I think I've come to the conclusion that injuries would decrease if we listen to our bones. That is, if something doesn't feel right, run less for a week. Cut the long run off early. Or skip it for a week or 3 while your body adapts. When the bones are feeling strong, run more. Part of the reason we run is to become more in contact with our bodies anyway. Being a slave to a plan defeats that purpose.
Yep, that’s it! However, I think it is far easier said than done. I listen to my body more now than I ever have in the past, but I still catch myself running (or doing another workout) when a rest day would be better. Have you ever pushed it too far and wound up injured?
I think this mostly comes down to what you're training for, where you're training (trails, pavement), your training age, and what your relative "long" is. Camille Herron's short runs are probably as long or longer than some people's long runs. It's all relative to the person and the event they are training for.
This is always important to keep in mind. Comparison is the thief of joy and I think we would all have our joy stolen if we compared ourselves to Camille! 👊🏽
not gonna lie the prospect of avoiding injury is a very compelling argument. I had injured myself twice for doing too much too soon which was a great setback both times. But then again i like the long run. For me the long run is the KPI. The confirmation that i need that i could go further and in more comfort than last time. Also for me doing two runs is much more difficult and bothersome. You have to prepare, dress, warmup, cool down, shower twice plus wash twice as more sweaty clothes. Not to mention it is also harder to fit two runs into my day. Doing less long runs per month and maybe doing longer short runs is absolutely acceptable.
Injury avoidance is (or at least should be) top of all runner’s list. I’m with you on the inconvenience of running twice a day. There’s a lot to prep and then clean after each run. Why double our work if not absolutely necessary.
Splitting up a LR and or cycling after a run can be extremely useful I’ve been successful in this . Pros only can run till their late 30s and their career is over. We want to run till old age so we must be more careful
Yes to this! I often mix in other forms of cardio so I can get enough activity without the increased risk of injury. We're in this for the long game! 💪🏽
I'm a newbie to marathoning, first one coming up in April. My target is sub-3:30, I ran my first ever half in 1:45 two weeks ago after 3 months of "training" aka running wildly different mileage week-to-week with no regard for easy vs threshold vs speedwork (I was a 15-season varsity distance runner in high school but spent the last 10 years sedentary with a chronic illness, so when I started running again my goal was just to make a habit, not to run races...the half and full marathon sign-ups were spur of the moment and now I find myself searching for a proper training schedule, hence how I ended up on this video). Currently I'm running about 35 miles a week, with 10-12 of them being one long run. I enjoy it, it's nice to get that much fresh air and just let my head wander free for almost two full hours. I sometimes do mile intervals during the long runs to make it more interesting, but most of my long runs have been at an easy or easy-ish pace. I don't think I would drop them from my weekly schedule, but I may cap them at 15 miles instead of my original goal of 20. We'll see!
Big congrats on getting back into running and especially for completing your first HM and signing up for an April marathon! This is a big deal! Are you following a plan? If not, check out HalHidgon.com. There are free training plans that will give you a good idea of how to structure your training leading up to your race! Keep it up and enjoy the process!
@@its_Matt_B_ I've been sort of "shopping" for plans, there are surprisingly many different opinions on how to structure marathon training blocks! For now I'm just trying to get mileage in but in the next few weeks I'll definitely be locking in a schedule. Thanks so much for the link! I'll be certain to check that website out 😊
One of the biggest benefits of the long run is building mitochondria and laying down new capillary beds which will get more oxygen to working muscles. 90 minutes should be the minimum to hit long run benefits.
Precisely! I find it strange this aspect of training wasn't mentioned. Surely those same adaptations can't happen with two shorter runs. Oh well! If the comments are anything to go by, no one is giving up their long run!
I agree with you on this! The mental side of running is often underrated but where the mind goes the body follows. It pays to work on our mental game! 👊🏽
Long runs are just your longest run of the week. If you run 3 miles x 4 days and you run 6 miles on the 5th day, that is considered your long run. 😂 You can do it by time too. If you run, 30 minutes x 4 a week and your 5th run is 1.5 hrs. That’s your longest run of the week. I don’t do them weekly anymore but once every 2-3 weeks because joints and tendons take a little more time to heal after a long run. The legendary coach Renato Canova prescribes 1 long run @ 90-92% of marathon pace every 2 weeks for his elite runners because he says that joints and tendons need to heal. It greatly reduced their chance of injury. I like to split my long runs into two sessions on the weekend: 1.5 hrs. X 2 @ 90% of goal MP. Total is 3 hrs. worth of marathon effort exposure. Massive adaptations.
The whole long run concept is really quite simple when we look at it for what it is: the longest run of the week. It doesn’t have to be 16+ miles (which is what I consider a long run when marathon training). 2x1.5 hours at 90% of MP is a heavy workout! Good job putting in that kind of work! 💪🏽 I’m not surprised you see see adaptations with that effort! 💥
I think there’s no right or wrong. For me the benefits of long runs are as much mental as they are physical They give me a feeling were I stand training for a marathon (confidence) and they make you thougher. Especially during cold winters and summer heat. Or do I sound a little bit too much like Goggins now? Stay hard! 😂
Thanks for this video. I do believe that at least taking an off week a month where you significantly shorten your long run helps a lot in the recovery process and should be considered. Now, personally, i dont run so i can eat more, but it's a lovely benefit of running
You're 100% right about eating more being a nice side effect of running! Your idea of the one week step back a month has merit and I imagine would go a long way to us runners remaining healthy and injury free. Luckily, my work schedule ensures I run less every other week, so it gets taken care of without me having to put any extra thought into it.
i think the long run builds mental strength ;i think the idea of doing long run 2 times a month is a great idea followed in between with 2 shorter runs on the sunday
I found myself in a natural holding pattern of one long run per month this year. I had no goal race and really the only reason I even ran 13.1 once per month was because I could. I should really run more but I run by feel these days so if I’m not feeling it I just listen to my body and don’t go.
This sounds like a pretty good scenario while you’re not specifically training. That one long effort a month will keep you healthy and set you up for a good build when you’re ready! 💪🏽
For me the best LR range is 16-20 miles. Anything over 20 isn’t helpful. For me, the best way to evaluate the LR is to notice whether the LR reduces willingness/ability to do speed work later that week. There has to be a balance between the LR and the speed workouts, IMO.
I’m of the same mindset regarding what distance range I consider a long run. Clearly you’re focused on marathons. 😀 Balance is the key to long-term success in running (and I suspect most things).
This study is only applicable if all you want to do is run as much mileage as your body can handle, without breaking down. This study is based on the premise, that a normal week of training will be too hard on the bones. This is only true in cases of "overtraining". If you havent run over 10 before, and you go run 18, of course it would be better to break it up, though that's an extreme example. It doesn't address any of the benefits of the long run that cannot be attained any other way, and you lose with 4-8 hours between halves. So, if you want to go all in on this study better split mileage into 2-3 runs hours apart every day so it is the least "impact on your bones". Otherwise, keep the long run. While there are many ways to train, good luck finding a substantial amount of world champions from 5k to marathon that do not use a long run.
Yeah, I noticed they didn’t provide any world class athletes as examples. You’re good to recognize how the study approaches its view to training/injury and I don’t think anyone training for distance events will be put off their long run from these findings. 😂
In my own personal study ie me running and seeing the results id say long runs are essential if you're planning on running for you guessed it a long time. The body has a use it or lose it policy with every exercise we do. Long runs not only prepare your body for the long effort but also the efficiency it takes to perform that task well. Dont believe me? Stop doing long runs for a while then try running for a long duration the results will confirm my findings i guarantee.
For marathon training I would recommend not one but two long runs per week. It gives your body the signal that that long run is a stayer and it would better adapt asap.
@@its_Matt_B_ Well, you are talking about programs with more than 1 daily run anyway. So probably you are already talking about advanced programs... Let’s say we are talking about a program that develops towards 70 miles a week, for example. You can divide that program in 6 runs, including 2 long runs (Pfitzinger for example). Or divide that program in 9 runs, including 1 long run (80/20 for example). I personally think that the program with emphasis on more and also preferably harder long runs is what best prepares you for the marathon. I get it! Those long runs are hard and splitting your long runs up into more but shorter runs makes it a lot easier to get your weekly mileage in. However it doesn’t train your endurance and mental toughness at a similar level.
I've been having a lot of success with the 30% rule. My long run is never more than 30% of my total weekly mileage. At lower running volumes, this means my 'long run' is pretty short and when I'm training for a marathon or half marathon, the long run will get pretty long, but never that long in relation to my weekly mileage. Been doing a lot of doubles for my other training days as well and finding it's working really well splitting up the rest of my mileage into shorter chunks.
It sounds like you’ve found a training recipe that works for you, and I’d say that’s what we’re all looking for! Your comment actually made me do a calculation and it turns out my long runs are usually less than 30%. At the moment I’m not training specifically for a race so my long run is only about 22% of my weekly volume. I get closer to 30% when actively training. 🤔 Thanks for making me look a little closer! 👊🏽
Yeah, that’s a valid concern! I’d even say the mental part of the training is more important than the physical part. We can train our bodies to be very good at endurance, but it’s over when the mind says so!
After a certain age, for some people it's going to be 40 for other later, our bodies won't be able to handle a long run AND at the same time preserve muscle mass. Unfortunately maintaining a decent muscle mass is necessary to age well. So frankly, unless you are making money running marathon you should NOT run more than 6 miles, if you're in your fifties. Look at older people in their late 70s, 80s, sarcopenia is creeping up on them. We need to be very good generalist, specialization is not advised. Now, do what you want. You want to be fit running and preserver your muscle at the same time? Do this: one "long" run of 6-8 miles once a week. One run of 3 mile at an uncomfortable pace and one mile run, all out. Since I've switched to this I'm a new man. If you think pushing yourself on a 3 miles is not going to keep you fit, you are highly mistaken. Running a marathon is not going to make you fitter, just better at running marathons and it will eat your muscle mass away.
You make a great point about being a generalist AND maintaining muscle mass as we age. I wonder if this is self-leveling? We do want we want up to a certain age before morphing into doing what we need. As always, it's about balance and making good choices! Thanks for your insightful comment!
Good to hear you’re focusing on strength! Is there such a thing as too much strength training? Probably, but it doesn’t seem as injury prone as running.
@@its_Matt_B_ Agreed, running is a dangerous exercise. Foot injuries are worse comparatively to most other muscles, except maybe one's back. I strength train 2/3 days a week...the most difficult part, eating more consistently😆
My easy long runs are mostly cut-off by 2h30m (~22km). Even when im training for ultra (up to 100k), i dont run more than 3hrs. I however will split my run into back to back consecutive days (ie Fri night+Sat morning+Sun morning, or Fri night+Sat night+Sun morning) that accumulates to >40km to train my fatigue resillience.
Ahh, yes! I hadn't even thought about this but this is a good way to build resilience without doing it all at once. Although, you still run up to 3 hours, I imagine you're like Camille Herron in that your long runs are relative to the distance you're training for. How many of these back to back long runs will you do in a build up for a 100k? Every week, 2 weeks, 3 weeks?
@@its_Matt_B_ : i also do duathlons. when building to 50k n 100k UT, i will only do pure consecutive 3days 1-1.5months towards the race, weekly. friday usually 10k as i came back from work. The sat n sun will be 15-22k runs. *i only run 5days a week during high mileage week. outside that zone(or shorter run race), my sunday morning will be a long weekend ride 60-100km. If duathlon race coming, i do brick session bike-run on Sat(alternate long ride+short run or vice versa by week), n Sun will be long run. Im just slow multisport casual, n dont have specific training plan or coach. this seems to work for me 😅.
This is probably horrible, but my long run days are also my cheat days. Eating garbage after a long run gives me the same joy as receiving a medal after a race😂. A lot of times I start planning the junk I'm going to eat while I'm on the run. I start scrolling through the rolodex of sugar snacks and food in my head when the run starts winding down.
This is funny, but not unusual! I often think about what I'm going to eat when I get home from my run! It sounds like you probably maintain a healthy diet for the rest of the time, so if a cheat day after a long run is what it takes, go for it!
Thought provoking! I wonder how long the normal runs are for that ultra running champion you mentioned. They might be twenty miles? Also if stress fractures are the main concern you also really cannot get around the consideration of ground reaction forces. How fast are you running and on what surface. I think there is good reason that pro ultra trail runners generally can do a lot more races than pro marathon runners. The latter experience crazy ground reaction forces during a race at twenty km/h on hard surfaces
Yeah, we can’t ignore that Camille Herron operates on another level from most runners so yes, her normal runs could definitely be what we consider long. I had several stress fractures early in my running life before I realized that more running wasn’t the best way to train. 🤣 It seems so ridiculous now! Balance is key! It’s good to keep those impact forces in mind. Soft trails don’t nearly lead to as many injuries as roads do. Do you do much trail running?
That title is definitely click bait for me! 😀. Lately, i have abandoned the 20+ mile long run because the wear and tear seem to outweigh the benefit. We will see if it bears fruitage.
I think the title is clickbate for most long distance runners. There is a lot of insecurity surrounding the long and the emphasis placed on it. I bet most runners would skip the long run if it turned out it wasn’t necessary. 🤔
NO i DON'T like the long run. i was just tryi'n to mainly do 400 M & 200 meters every day for a while but was starting to get beat up from doing 400s too fast
I do long run sat doing like 10 plus miles and. Sunday 4 miles Monday 4 miles Tuesday 4 miles Wednesday 6 miles Thursday 6 miles Friday 4 miles sat long run 10 plus miles 📏📏📏📏📏 I’m a new runner olny 5 months in I run ever day no days off
@@its_Matt_B_ at first I was I was jacked up I keep push got some new shoes that help a lot but what help was fueling right I use G.1.M sport I drink that be for my run then I use gel in my runs and eat right and clean I can hold it now good
It seems to me that there are at least two training benefits to long runs that you don't mention. The first is recruitment of type 2 muscle fibers in the legs for endurance running as the type 1 fibers fatigue, basically turning type 2 fibers into type 1 fibers. There isn't great studies on this but the idea is that as your type 1 fibers fatigue you need to use more and more type 2 fibers for endurance activity which induces a change in the muscle fiber composition. There seems to be some evidence that this happens in lab animals but I'm not aware of any studies that show that this actually happens in people. It seems like a way to get this effect without doing a long run would be to pre-fatigue the type 1 muscle fibers by cross-training with a bicycle etc. The second benefit of long runs that you don't mention is training against the bonk, which I think is what a lot of marathoners are after when they are doing runs that go past 22 miles. The idea is that if you can do those long runs in training - particularly with regard to time on foot - then you won't experience the dreaded wall at miles 20-24 that many runners experience. There's some anecdotal evidence that some athletes have been successful at getting over experiencing the wall by training with very long long runs. On the other hand, it seems pretty clear that most bonking is due to either a lack of fuel or to an electrolyte deficiency, neither of which should be addressed by training except in the sense that you should train taking on carbohydrates and electrolytes while running and that doesn't have to be done on a long run. I remain ambivalent about the long run. While I can see the benefit of say doubling 10-milers sometimes over always doing a 20 miler, I can't shake the sense that I need to get ready for the marathon with long long runs.
I eagerly aware the day the science confirms a long run is not needed. Until that day, I’m like you in that I will not shake the idea that the long run is integral to marathon training. As far as Type I and Type II muscle fibers go, I haven’t heard that about us fatiguing our Type I muscle fibers so Type II can take over. Endurance running is Type II all day. I was under the impression that the only time we engage Type I is when sprinting. 🤔 Still, I’m not educated in that area, so I’m the first to admit I don’t know what I’m talking about. 🤣
@@its_Matt_B_ I think you have it backwards. Type 1 are the slow twitch muscle fibers that you use in endurance and they do in fact fatigue and you end up recruiting the type 2a and even 2b fibers at the end of very long endurance efforts. (Which unfortunately means that you are even less efficient when you get tired.) Where that point is etc. can only be gleaned from lab rat studies as far as I know.
as a Type 1 Diabetic, long runs are problematic. But if you think I shouldn't look forward to being able to eat without taking insulin, I have news for you. That's my jam.
I do one long run a week because I'm training for a marathon and I want to be confident I can run that distance. But I also love that run because of all the benefits you mention and because it beats speed training any day imo 😂📏
Love my long runs, but am blessed with a ejndergul dude that doesn’t mind me leaving the house at 3:30am, so I can drive up to the mountains, run for 6-7 hours, then drive back. But for hundred mile training, it’s the best.I only cover a26-27 miles, but 4-5k of vert do relatively relaxed. But it’s also therapeutic, nothing like spending hours on end in the woods and mountains. Cool topic!! 📏
Your whole day of running in the mountains sounds fantastic and you also bring up a good point about the therapeutic aspect of doing it. The therapeutic aspect probably isn’t as strong in the city or suburbs, 🤣 but it has to be there a little for those of us who don’t have mountain access!
Whatever the evidence this is very coincidental with me getting bored with long runs, and what im hearing is do more interval days like id prefer to do 😆
Defining LR is pretty subjective as well I have found. To a 5k runner, 8-10 miles could be a LR. Many runners even define 13.1 or greater as a long run. So individual. Just finishing my marathon block and I did several 18-22 mile weekend runs over the last several months with multiple 10-12 milers during the week. What I see is that many runners are running easy miles way too fast causing increased stress during these miles. Add in a WO day and before the LR day, you have entered a high level of stress. Do this for weeks and months and the risk for injury is huge. As a 60 year old runner who has collected tons of data over the past 5 years, I've found out the LRs (16+ miles) are needed to increase my fitness to meet my goal 13.1/26.2 times. Adding in an EZ cross train day also has given my body a de-stressed day. The Arc trainer/elliptical has been phenomenal.
I’m with you on the elliptical! It’s a perfect way to get that non-impact aerobic workout! I’m often surprised at how fast people do their long runs. I tend to do mine VERY slow (relative to my race times). I’ve also noticed that I run way too fast when running with others, so a key for me staying healthy is to run most miles solo! What are you racing next, Jim?
I'll go off on a tangent here, but I feel like everybody wants to do a marathon, as if endurance running is the only thing that gives people confidence, health, discipline and whatever other benefits people get out of running (like being able to eat more:). The Olympics have a whole range of distances! And I get excited by of all of them since I was a kid, including the marathon of course. Why isn't there anywhere near as many (non-elite) people out there training to improve their power and or mix of power and endurance as the main goal? Why not train to keep improving your 400m, 1K, 5K and 10K marks (but not go beyond that)? Why does everybody's main ultimate goal seem to be the marathon (or even ultra)? My guess is people believe it is more of an achievement (or it sounds cooler?) to say you completed a marathon, or ran one in 3h30, than say you have a 18min 5K and a 55sec 400m? I'll even double down, why not throw in some upper body functional strength as well in the mix? Why not make it your goal to run fast and be able to do 20 pull ups and 50 push ups at the end of it, add in some jumps, be more of a rounded athlete you know? Why do people get stuck at either endurance training, or otherwise go to the gym and do next to no cardio? OK, rant over. My long runs are 10K and I run them only when the weather is good and I slept well the night before! That is, I do them only when they are enjoyable and not to fill some volume quota (currently a meagre 20km per week without a long run). My main goal is to keep improving my 5K time (currently at 23:20, down from 28:00 4 years ago) and the "long" runs are a way to make the 5K look easier in my mind in comparison. I do sprints whenever my aging (50+) body allows me. As far as I'm concerned (as a recreational runner) 5K is a mentally more demanding distance than any longer one, as you know you cannot lay off the gas at any point and need to suffer the whole way through. For longer distances I imagine people schedule some more relaxing segments (not talking about elite marathoners of course). I am eagerly awaiting for you to tell me what I'm getting it all wrong:)
🤣 I hate to disappoint you but I won’t be telling you you’ve got it wrong. In fact I agree with you. I also agree that the 5k can be more difficult than the marathon. With that said, I think the (perhaps) misguided appreciation for the marathon is simply because of the distance. If you ask a non-runner which distance they would tackle between a 5k and a marathon, they would choose the 5k because it seems approachable. If you tell a non-runner you ran a marathon they will invariably say something like “I don’t even like to drive that far.” When people start running, that appreciation for the marathon is well seeded so they (again perhaps) unconsciously gravitate to the marathon as the be all and end all of running. There’s also the YT (and other SoMe) algorithm. I would think there are plenty of people focused on functional fitness (or track running) but because you watch running content more than functional fitness/track content, the algorithm provides. There’s an argument that the algorithm knows you better than you know yourself. Thoughts?
@@its_Matt_B_ Interesting Matt, good point about the distance. Maybe I am not like most people, I always kept my records at every distance (and any other physical endeavour) since I was a kid. I still have somewhere the notebook I was using from when I was 12, with all my records from 100m sprint to standing on one leg for 1 hour(lol!). So I guess I never saw a greater distance as something more important that speed, or a standing jump. Yes, tbh I am not sure of the real-world percentage (not biased by YT) of people training for smaller distances, say up to 5K, as opposed to those training for a marathon. My guess though is that it is close to 5-10% at best. Because none of my friends/acquaintances aim to improve their 1K (or 1 mile) time, one or two care about their 5K and all the rest aim for higher. And also when I go out to run, I almost never see anyone sprinting! Sure there are a lot of people training for functional strength though, but can they also run a decent 5K time? I guess my point is to be a more rounded performer. Perhaps because when I was growing up decathletes were considered the ultimate athletes. I imagine that holds today as well, but they get no media love:) OK, that's because the average public could not possible practice the decathlon, so it doesn't translate to sales/views, etc. So in the end I think it has to do with commercialization. There are a lot of other things, like crossfit (another discussion...), or triathlon (too much cardio based, no upper body strength).
@@yianpap6093 It seems the focus has gone away from being a true well-rounded athlete, like those competing in the decathlon. However, any cardio athlete knows it’s in their best interest to strength train as it supplements their main sport/activity. I strength train 3 times a week but I have no interest in testing other aspects of my fitness other than running.
@@its_Matt_B_ Fair enough. You're strength-training (your legs and core I imagine) more than I do. I do hit my pull ups and push ups though, I'm all for balance! Cheers.
Damn right I run and bike so I can eat the good stuff! Why would I go on a long run on a hot day to look forward to salad and maybe some kale chips if I feel naughty?
this is kind of a stupid discussion. your body adapts so if you have trained to run a marathon by slowly working toward that distance then your body can run a marathon. so talking about adaptions is meaningless when you have adapted. however training too much is defenately a problem, rest is very important. 2hr is a very long duration so you should really rethink doing that every week. I run to lose weight and get better vo2 max, dont really have a goal but thinking of doing a half marathon next year maby. up til now I have had mostly slow paced runs at approximately 40mins a day but I have atleast 1 day of walking or resting inbetween its not often that I run 2 days in a row, I also have fast paced every week. however I havent been doing it for that long and _I'm heavy so I need more rest than others, but its easy to tell when my body is rested that things dont hurt etc. and after starting strength training I have 3-4 days rest after each gym session because my body need its to recover. so either make your long runs 1-1.5hrs or have more rest/make your normal runs shorter. 2hr is marathon wreconrd time, so why would you run that every week?
This is a fairly long comment for a "stupid discussion." 🤣 Still, I appreciate you taking the time to write it! It's good to hear you've figured out what works for you and that you're taking care of your body while doing so. How is your weight loss journey coming? The running community is pretty big and many runners emjoy running for long amounts of time. 2 hours isn't so long when you run at an easy pace. A recreational runner running at an easy pace cannot be compared to someone racing a 2 hour marathon.
@@its_Matt_B_ lost 70lBs so far. You sure you cant compare a 2hr marathon to east pace recreational? If you look at say kipchoges training he's length/time and pace isnt that far off his race pace and time. And hes done it all his life so doing the same amount just slower reccreationally is inzane. I have done 2 half marathons myself wich both took over 2.5hr in easy pace but it was an insane toll on my body so not planning to do another until my pace gets to where I can do them in sub 2hr. Also weight plays in ofc
Big congrats on the weight loss,@@Berberien! That's a big deal! Kipchoge's easy run pace starts off about 4 minutes slower than his marathon race pace and ends about 2 minutes slower than race pace. Only you know for sure, but I question if your 2.5 hour HM was done at a true easy pace. Could you have a full conversation the whole time? If course we're all different, but I have paced people at the marathon at a pace quite a bit slower than my race pace and it's been relatively easy with a quick recovery. However, when I run at race pace, it takes the normal amount of time to recover (weeks). I guess I'm of the thought that a true easy run doesn't require much, if any, recovery.
@@its_Matt_B_ yeah my easypace is 6:55 and my hm was done at 7 something. Im new so not used to the strains on both muscles, joints, ligaments or bones. But ofc if you have done something for 10years it wont impact you much compared to a first timer :)
Yep, it’s the same for all of us. There will always be someone doing more but I remind myself there are even more people doing less! Keep doing what you do! 💪🏽
Your logic of, if it's good enough for a pro it's good enough for me is the exact opposite of the logic your using. The pros can do what they do because they are elite, your are not, you get stress fractures from running. Also, running 2 5km runs on one day is not equal to running 10km in one day. Running over 2 hours is proven to promote veins and arteries to grow and our cells to utilize o2 more efficiently. This is what the long run is for.
Saying I do something, or should do something, when I actually do another thing is a theme with me. 🤣 Your point about the long run promoting oxygen utilization is a good point and definitely belongs on the "benefits of the long run" side of the page.
If you read the article it’s based on rat experiments and bone risk. Now… I did get a tibia stress fracture probably from long runs on marathon training. However, this is a poor gradual load problem (racing and training lots). The solution is to load properly.
Great thoughts as always, Matt! I have a feeling that runners who love long runs and would never give them up are often the same ones who freely choose to run marathon after marathon, typically those blessed with excellent fatigue resistance. From the little bit I've heard about the science of extreme endurance, it's trainable to a degree but a big part of it is innate. That said, making peace with the two-hour long run is on my list of goals for next year. (And no, going slower doesn't make it better, or hasn't anyway. The cramped stride and artificially low cadence and lack of energy return only made it more painful.) It's also interesting looking through the comments and seeing how many seniors split their daily mileage into multiple runs. I never did that when I was younger but it worked very well for me this year.📏
I think you’re right about the runners who like long runs not giving them up. It’s like trying to tell a smoker that smoking is bad for them. They know but like it too much to stop. Well, perhaps that’s a poor comparison as there’s no way running long can be bad for us! (🤣 spoken like a person in denial). Yeah, we often hear that going slower is the key to running longer, but there is clearly a point of diminishing returns!
@@its_Matt_B_ Not saying that to be critical!😁I'm in my happy place doing 30-45 minute tempo runs and maybe I've made the most progress from them, but of course I've done lots of them. It might be the same in music, writing, art, scholarship, and most things we train and practice for. It's more fun working on the aspects that we have the most aptitude for, and maybe the biggest gains are to be had by playing to our strengths. But it's also easy to neglect the parts that don't come as easily, and they matter too. It's one more thing we have to figure out for ourselves, no doubt, but that helps to keep it interesting.
100%@@largeeddie . It's a difficult thing to do something we're not (as) good at with the hope of improving rather than do what we're good at and know we can be successful! Ugh, life (and running)! 😄
As I'm just building up to marathon fitness, I think long runs are probably essential to do along with whatever plan one follows. But if you're up to Camilla's level, it probably makes more sense to space them out like you were talking about. There are probably other workouts worth focusing on, too, like hills and intervals. All that said, I do love a good Sunday long run - especially when the weather is perfect for it - nothing beats a two-hour run for relaxing the mind. 📏
Yeah, I’d agree with them being essential in marathon training, especially if you want to do as well as possible. For those looking to just finish, a split long-run would probably work. Thanks for the 📏 !
"My hands and your imagination are going to have to do. " 😮😂 As a VERY recreational ultra runner, with a whole lot going on in my life and no goals for the podium, my main goal is to focus on overall health and fitness with my running, strength, yoga, and nutrition, and arrive at the starting line fit, fresh, and unstressed. Undertrained, absolutely. I know this might be a recipe for disaster for some, but for me, it allows me the time to live my life, while also "enjoying" the sport I love. That means a max of 5 hours total of training per week. My longest 2-3 runs before a 50k is usually 2-3 hours on similar terrain to the race, and they're enjoyable. But I have to remind myself "This is my job right now " because I have so much that needs to be done waiting for me. And yes, as a glutton, I absolutely think of calorie count... I enjoy eating as much as I do running, so they go hand in hand! 😂 📏
The whole hand and imagination thing didn’t sound bad when I said it, but reading it in your comment made me 😱 and 🤣! I would argue arriving at the starting line undertrained is more likely a recipe for success than disaster. It gets beat into us that we have to take our training to the limit, but we can be very successful with just training and enjoying a balanced life.
Yes, I’m sure there must be benefits to new cushion/foam technology but there have also been studies that indicate more cushion is correlated with a higher risk of injury.
In theory I should be in some kind of "base" period. But since I'm training for Speedgoat and OCC (fingers crossed), I need a fair amount of remediation. All of my runs (except for races for fun) are now "up", regardless of the effort level. When it's on a mountain, I just count how many times I'm going to the top. So would they be "high runs"? Plus nordic skiing starts any day now. To combat the altitude problem, I've taken up Olympic weightlifting. 📏⛰ 🏋
You’re actively training for July and August races? That is commitment! Also, what mountain do you usually train on? Enjoy your ski season! I’ve never been Nordic skiing but I just know I would love it!
@@its_Matt_B_ Moosalamoo is my main "mountain" (334m over 4km) and near that is Romance Mtn 208m over 1.3km. Closer to home is Snake Mountain 200m over 3.4km. Okay training for the front half of Speedgoat. But for the back half, I'll have to rely on the treadmill. Except for the final big climb -- 440m over 2km!! That's 20%. I'll have to go the big ski mountains for that kind of vert. Hopefully that's where I'll spend my weekends in the summer training. Bolton Valley has skimo lessons so maybe I'll look into that later in the season. I haven't started to strategize OCC yet, but the vert is going to be similar although I understand the terrain will be more like Vermont.
