Also, the difficulty in getting a perfect native accent is very subtle. I have heard someone speak where she has an almost 100% perfect London accent, and if you only had a short conversation you would think she was a local. However, every now and then a slight hint of her native German breaks through where, for example, she sounds a "d" like a "t" which would not happen in English.
You definitely SHOULD strive to sound like a native, but not EXPECT it will work in every case. It is, of course, possible and even happened to me with one of the several languages I learned. The reason, I believe, beyond hard work and positive attitude, is just that I had a particular affinity for that language. Also, some people think fantastic results depend on the language being "easy" relative to your native one, or similar to your mother tongue, but that's not true, either. For me, a native speaker of English, I learned Hungarian perfectly (never called out as a non-native after about the second year of study), did reasonably well at German, and utterly failed at Italian, the one people always claim is "easy". Some languages just grab you and others don't.
My native language is Czech. I went to France when I was about 8 years old and I picked up pretty much a perfect French accent. Now I live and work in Canada and although I picked up a lot of local speech patterns, I never really was able to lose my Czech accent when speaking English. I don't think it matters too much, because most people can understand me quite well and in larger Canadian cities there is a lot of people and lots of different accents, so I feel like I don't particularly stand out with mine. The most important thing is to try to lose certain idiosyncrasies that would make it difficult for people to understand you.
I'm trying to learn Italian and I try quite hard to pronounce words correctly and often find myself adopting an Italian accent because it actually makes forming the words easier. However I am under absolutely no illusion whatsoever that it sounds in any way authentic to a native speaker. I think to achieve the level of sounding like a native, one would have to live in the country. By doing that you would find that you would eventually pick up the local accent. Much like if you move within your own country to a region where people have a different accent (in the UK that can be one or two streets away), your accent will probably change naturally to more closely align with the local one
You would be surprised how far emulating the accent goes. Just stop for a second and think about immigrants you have met who speak English, but with a very strong foreign accent. It's difficult to understand. Make the effort to sound like your host. It worked very well for me.
I was working in the Houston, TX area a few years ago and I took my wife shopping. Struck up a conversation with the woman at the register and suddenly I used a word that she wasn't familiar with and I had to explain what I meant. I thought it was odd at first but turns out she was a student learning the English language in order to go to her home country (can't remember where) and teach English there, at this moment my mind is blown because I never would have guessed English was a second language for her.
I think a lot of people suffer something akin to imposter syndrome when it comes to imitating sounds that are not native to their own language. They seem to believe that it's somehow insulting to native speakers, as if mocking them, and so they choose to stick to their own native sound set as a way of signaling "Yeah, I'm a gaijin, I'm staying in my lane, don't mind me." (Irony being, they _won't_ pay you any mind at all if they can't understand what you're saying because of your overly thick accent.) Personally, I think that mentality is kind of sad and casts somewhat of an undue aspersion on the native speakers of your target language, as if they're incapable of appreciating a foreigner putting effort into speaking their tongue. It also casts an undue aspersion on yourself, as if you somehow "don't deserve" to be part of that linguistic sphere...but then, why even bother learning a language in the first place? Just go all out and give it your very best. I guarantee you, native speakers will notice the effort and respond positively.
I started watching RU-vid videos in English when I was around 10 or so. That's how I learnt the language, hours upon hours upon hours of listening. I'm from the Czech Republic but people who hear me speak ask which US state I'm from. It's not just possible, it's very doable if you have a good ear and put a lot of time in.
Great presentation and agree with pretty much everything that you've said. Native 'like' Prosody trumps 'perfect' accent, but setting the goal from the beginning is important. Your English is a perfect example of this. Any native English speaker listening to you can hear you are not native, however, your prosody is PERFECT, you have so many sounds from certain British English dialects - diphthongs / vowels in general - and even the glottal stops you have smattered through your English, and just the general flow of sounds and phrasing of the language, your English actually is nicer to listen to some native speakers that I know. When you're looking at languages that are spoken by many foreigners like English, then there is a lot more leeway for accent / prosody, but as you know as a Chinese speaker, that leeway varies from language to language. Even mandarin gives you a lot more leeway because so many non-native speakers (Including Chinese non-native speakers of Mandarin) speak Mandarin, so the 'scope' for different renderings of the language is much broader. As you get into languages like Cantonese, or Thai, the scope for variation becomes a lot more narrow.
I think it's definitely possible. For example if you moved to Japan, learned Japanese while working at a Japanese company, only watched and read Japanese media, married a Japanese partner, had Japanese kids, talked to Japanese friends, and never spoke in your native language for years the you'd probably sound extremely similar to the natives. The natives don't have Japanese baked into their souls, they just spent their entire childhoods being educated in the language and exposed to it 24/7. Anyone who tries to replicate that will get really close to the same level. On the flip side, as and English speaker I meet people who have learned English as a second language literally every day and the tiny grammar or pronunciation mistakes hardly matter at all when they are actually communicating with me. My brain hardly notices it half the time. I think it helps to sound more native in certain social situations, especially if you live in that country, but focusing on clear communication is much more important than native level communication.
I agree completely. It's not something for everyone, but if it's a language that you love, and you want to perfect it, why not? I've seen a lot of this, people asking some grammar question only to be met with a bunch of "you don't have to learn that!" replies. That's of no help.
I appreciate your willingness and persistence in speaking English like a native. While there are multiple English accents anyway, it's clear you're striving for authenticity and are pretty close to sounding like a very well spoken native, and if not perfectly native --at least very well spoken 👏 bravo!
Excellent! Your videos are more informative than most of the graduate courses I attended as part of the requirements for my PhD in applied linguistics.
I find the "just speak with your natural accent" concept so stupid, some people love to justify their lazyness. You should definitely try to sound more like a native. Sounding like one 100% of the time will be extremely hard, but getting halfway there is still much better than not even trying and sounding like shit forever. Also, totally agree that having a good accent and pronunciation will make natives think your level is much higher than it really is, even if your grammar and vocab aren't great.
I try to sound as native as possible, but like you said it's difficult. Learning correct English pronunciation took me years! Words like the, weather, feather, father, jewelry etc... were especially difficult for me. I did learn over time, but I still often get tongue tied when speaking. Sometimes I'm flawless and sometimes I just fumble my sentences completely. I think you should try and aim to sound as native as you can, but there's no shame in having a bit of an accent. Pronouncing sounds that are not in your native language is tough!
I am a language teacher. Most language classes do not emphasize pronunciation and most classes do not work with students one-on-one with pronunciation. If you have never had a teacher or native speaker work with you on pronunciation, do it. Your pronunciation will improve a lot.
There's this story of a Turkish author who had an advanced knowledge of French but having the thickest Turkish accent imaginable. When asked he'd say: "why should I speak like a French person, I'm not gonna become a spy am I". I think he was just into French literature so he'd be on full on reading. I was once thought to be Japanese by a client of the company I work for. My colleague had told me about the guy who wanted him to ask his "Japanese colleague" (yours truly). I double checked to see if he meant "Japanese-speaking staff", but he had meant it. It was flattering for me. When I am abroad and have to communicate with someone with a lower level of English, I switch to the thickest Turkish accent I can manage. It can be tiring even for me, but I think I make myself understood more by that. Don't know why, maybe they are relieved to see a non-native English speaker like them and they are not stressed anymore. I didn't think of it but apparently I need an Italian guy speaking in a full on British accent (you said London, is that Cockney?)
I've been told by Brits, Americans, Canadians, and Australians (including New Zealanders) that I speak English like a native speaker (it's my second language, being Norwegian) - but none of them could agree on where the accent was from, just that it wasn't from their neck of the woods. I find that English is the easiest language to "fake" native grasp of, given the immense range of native dialects around the globe. Don't know if any other language could ever allow for the same distinction... As for your accent, I don't often *hear* you slip up, but I can often see your Italian accent is well in hand. Well, both hands, really. (I jest. Mostly.)
@@jakemckeown9459 I don't think so, I lean more toward a non-American English accent, it's just that no-one can pinpoint where on Earth it's local to... but honestly, I'm just glad no-one can immediately pick me out as Norwegian from the accent. We've had some... athletes and such with, hm, *very* distinct... grasps of English, to put it politely.
I am forever stuck with sounding like a Pole or Romanian, and I accept my fate. It's just how I am. Another person I know sounds perfectly native, but our backgrounds are the same. What makes them different from me, if they learned how I learned, they do what I do, they started as soon as I started? Oh well, big whoop, people understand me and that's what matters.
@@BichaelStevens That is, indeed, the most important thing. So long as you can make yourself clearly understood, the actual accent is pretty unimportant, IMO. Unless you, like our dear Metatron, are teaching the language in question.
@@BrazenBard It's not like I sound like that kid in that famous Russian skit about learning English 😋"Maj nejm iz Antuon, evrij mornjing aj getaap at seaven ukhluohk"
I thought you might like to know that last week I saw a cafe advertising "enjoy a freshly made panini". I remembered your advice so went in and corrected them.
Originally my goal was to achieve an indistinguishable-from-natives level in my Spanish and Italian, but I've sort of relaxed on that recently. I think it's absolutely possible with one language or maybe a few different languages that are sufficiently different, but it's just extremely difficult and not worth it between the romance languages. I'd still love to get my Tuscan and Andalucian accents perfected one day (I'd say I can convincingly portray a Tuscan or Andaluz to a non-Tuscan or non-Andaluz right now), but for the same effort I could probably improve my portuguese a lot or even finally get started on French. It's a question of dedication and priorities.
Although my vocabulary is quite limited, I’ve always been proud of (and complimented on) my pronunciation in Japanese. The fact that you tie it into people who play music explains it a lot as I am a musician! Now I just need to increase my vocabulary and grammar. 😅
I agree that you should try to get it right, as least as right as necessary to be understood. I know several people (most of them French, but I'm sure that's by chance) that are fluent in English but it's very hard, close to impossible, to understand them because they don't seem to care at all about their accent.
I am blessed ( or cursed) with the ability to learn to speak a foreign language with a native or near-native speaker accent. This has led to several embarrassing moments when I traveled overseas and was mistaken for a native speaker, only to be found out because I wasn’t nearly as fluent in the local language as people assumed. Still, it was fun and I wouldn’t trade my gift for accents if I could.
I completely agree with you in this regard. Pronunciation it as much a part of a language as any other (difficult as it may be ) The idea that it should not even be attempted is like telling learners that the past perfect continuous is un-important, and you shouldn't even attempt it, as you'll sound awkward or clumsy. When your learning a language, most things you say are clumsy.
As a case in point, Metatron has great English pronunciation - I think most speakers of Standard English will understand you easily. However, no native British English speaker is going to mistake you for a native-speaker. On the other hand, I have interviewed many non-British people (French, German, Russian, Spanish, Italian, Indian) who do speak English like a native. Also. not all languages are equal: I think that Xhosa is probably nearly impossible to sound like a native speaker, unless you learn as a child.
I'm native English and your English pronunciation is insanely good. Most of the time, it genuinely sounds native I've met my fair share of 2nd language English speakers like you and it really inspires me to reach a similar level in my target language (Japanese)
I am an English native speaker. My knowledge of French is so-so but people say my accent is good, so much so that French speakers have said it is not obvious that I am English. I have been mistaken for Dutch, German and even Canadian. I am more than happy with that.
About the English ”I”, I’m hearing it’s getting to sound more like the Italian (or Finnish) ”I” (the tense vowel, similar to the English ”EA”, in ”Tea”, etc.), more often, in SSB; whereas, in RP, it was typically the lax vowel of ”It”, sounding more like the schwa-vowel, in its short, monophthongal form 🤔.
Depending on the language you wish to learn, it's your own drive to learn how to speak it. Again, using tlingit and tsimshian as examples. You can try, and if you're good enough, wonderful
I think you should try to sound as close to native as you can get. My grandparents were native French speakers (a derivative of New England French [Lowell French - it was spoken in Greater Lowell, Massachusetts] and Chiak and Quebecois - IDK exactly, I just know they used all three dialects with different family members). They sounded like native English speakers to me, a native English speaker. I think it's cool. Ready to Glair on RU-vid is Italian originally, and her English sounds like she is a native American-English speaker. It's so trippy to hear her switch between Italian and English. I love it! There are some languages, like the clicking languages of the African continent, that change the anatomy of the vocal cords in order to pronounce the words, so it takes YEARS to do it, but people have done it. Honestly, I can't understand what people are saying if they speak English with a thick foreign accent. I have a very thick regional accent that, I can tell from their facial expressions, is difficult for some non-native speakers to understand. I've also been told I have a bit of a mixed accent - probably with a little bit of French; I don't speak it, but I did grow up with it. I try to play down my accent a bit when I notice others can't understand me, but it's a bit annoying to do so. I have a friend from Indonesia that half of our conversations tend to be us just smiling and nodding at each other. 😅 I'm from outside Boston - that's not even close to how we speak!😂😂 *I'm typing as I listen to the video and just passed that part* Honestly, be careful trying to mimic our accent. If you're not used to our culture, you may get upset when we laugh at you. It's all meant to be in good fun, but people from outside of New England tend to think we are just extremely rude. If we are actually upset about something, you'll know immediately OR you will never know because we will bitch about it in private. We take the piss here, like the Irish do. Light mocking can be a sign of respect and welcoming. I definitely recommend getting used to our culture before practicing our accent. It is also fairly difficult to understand you when you try to do it. Once you get it down, though, we will be extremely impressed by it. Most other Americans can't do our accents - really there are multiple Boston accents; South Boston (Southie) is the stereotype accent. Massachusetts in general has different accents. I have an accent similar to a Lowell accent. My sister has a bit of a Chelmsford accent somehow - I guess it's how our hometown's accent, Dracut, hybridized with my Dad's Concord accent? I know these towns don't mean much of anything to people, but I find regional accents fun and like seeing on maps where they are and how small or large of an area they're found in.
All valid points. I have similar experience. However it seems the accent in my slavic languages come more natural then in, say, english, german. Thank You!
When I first discovered your channel, I thought at first you where British, not necessarily English, but speaking in a dialect I may not have heard before since grammar and vocabulary was (is) spot on. Now I know better. However, are you going to adopt American pronunciation, if not specific accent, now that you live across The Pond.😊
For my two pence I can say that in my experience, having been born and raised outside my native country (Greece) for 26 years but having always spoken Greek at home and having gone to Greek school after-hours during my schooling years, and now living in greece for 20 years, there are two things to consider: 1) My mannerisms stand out as being different to most Greeks', so (frustratingly) something is always "off". 2) I agree with the Metatron's point that if your pronunciation is very good, a native speaker will assume you know much more vocabulary than you actually do. This in itself is an obstacle to communication some times, especially on technical matters (speaking with doctors, car mechanics, local councils etc). It's all very interesting though.
I think it's possible, but not worth it for most people to sound EXACTLY like a native speaker. The thing is - the closer you approach sounding like a native, the harder it gets, I'd say exponentially so, nailing these tiny remaining details exactly right will possibly cost you as much effort as it took you to get from 0% to 99% I'm not pulling this out of my ass, I did study English philology (and I would go to the university library to read the journals with the research papers published by my professors, I'm that much of a nerd 🤓) and wherever there is phonemic contrast, L2 speakers develop the ability to speak new sounds relatively quickly - and when there isn't, most barely shift their native pronounciation. For example: I do pronounce θ and t (and even tʰ) as different sounds, even though this doesn't occur in my native language. I do pronounce ɪ and i differently etc. Does it mean I pronounce these EXACTLY like the natives do? Hell no, it's quite immediately obvious I'm not an Englishman, even if my accent doesn't give away where I'm from, It does give away where I'm definitely NOT from 😅. Having said that, people clearly can tell whether I'm saying 'three' or 'free' or whether I mean 'ship' or 'sheep'. That's good enough for me and for 99,9% of people. Does it mean you "shouldn't" try to get even better than that? Of course not, if you really want to, go for it - as long as you have an idea of why you're doing it and what for.
I do and I tell them I want to learn the language with their local accent. The response I get is very good, they love it in fact and immediately start trying to teach me. When I went to another part of the country, they were correcting my pronunciation to theirs, that made me happy. Yes, when I get it right the locals start talking very fast and I am swamped, at which point I get your pronunciation is really good. OK, I subscribed, I want to see what you have to say about it.
Video idea : I would love to watch a tutorial on how to pronounce the names of Famous Italian Artists in different fields from different eras such as Michelangelo , Raffaello Sanzio , Gian Lorenzo Bernini , Antonio Vivaldi , Arcangelo Corelli , Giacomo Puccini etc. Love your videos , have been a viewer for many years , Thank you.
The biggest issue in my opinion and experience as a person who tries to learn a third language is that people who teach languages don't actually know much about languages in general, especially not about phonetics and how to make a certain sound so a lot of people avoid teaching this subject and they just tell you "pronounce it in a way you can. If people understand you great". I'm currently going to a language school with 10 other students and the teacher not once corrected the pronunciation of people who are just pronouncing a certain sound in a wrong way.
10:44 I’m a native English speaker, and I actually used to pronounce the TH like a D and an F when I was a kid. I would pronounce the as “da” and think as “fink.” But when I was 11, I began to pronounce it the correct way and have ever since.
Hi there Metatron thanks for all your contents! I'm an italian that used to live in Australia and now in UK since 2018. At the beginning I tried so hard to sound like a native but after all these years I just realized that, as you said, trying to sound like a native is "almost" impossible, in fact even a 60% would be good. However I found myself uncomfortable in doing so and instead I decided to trying speak with my best accent but keeping that splash of italian and it worked definitely better for me and for people around. I still receive compliments from locals but also I can be myself and manifest my caracter that would be otherwise caged if I would try to speak perfectly. That it's just my experience tho so I would totally understand if someone else thinks differently! Edit: Just got to the part of video that summarized what I meant lol 6:30
I actually have a natural gift when it comes to this. Once aquainted, I can mimic pronunciation and accent in some foreign languages almost perfectly. I am very good at vocalizing ancient Hebrew and Aramaic with the reconstructed pronunciation and accent, with the gutterals such as the ayin sound and all.
I VERY much doubt that it's the case that all it takes is to be acquainted and then you get speak with near perfect pronunciation in any language. If that you were the case, you are one in a billion. You should become acquainted with a new language every day and make videos of yourself speaking in them. You would easily be rich and famous very quickly.
I'm Irish, but I live in a town in Murcia in southern Spain where nobody speaks English(the way I wanted it) I try my very best to speak and pronounce in the regional accent/dialect. Apparently Murcia region is one of the hardest dialects in all of the Spanish speaking world. 😊 It's a real challenge to learn here because they drop e and s and d and speak very fast and sentences sound like a single, long word sometimes. You really have to concentrate when listening, but my ear is definitely getting better along with my pronunciation. I'm certainly under no illusions though. Even if I become fluent there's still all the nuances and unwritten rules of Spanish that natives just use without thought and their cadence and rhythm. I think it's very rare for foreigners to gain an unrecognisable accent. I constantly have local radio on at home and I can instantly pick out non-native Spanish speakers that are 100% fluent in the language, but don't have that native cadence and rhythm, which is very important in Spanish.
This is a great topic. In my 36 years as a language teacher, I have seen the same proportion of learners picking up the accent among adults and even small children. Only a small number of people have a good ear. I'm not going to argue that younger learners without a good ear are equally less likely than adults to improve their accent. I'm sure they have an edge. What I do insist that my accent as a native speaker doesn't pop out of my mouth into the learner's ear and...bingo! I will also argue that language learning is about functional use and communication. Moreover, everyone should have a go and enjoy the experience, even those with "wooden ears". Language learning isn't just for thr linguistically gifted. Music, art and sport are the same: everyone, everything.
At 6:50 I would suggest that the "i" in Tim, tin, this, sit is actually a short "i" sound rather than a schwa "ə" sound (at least in a standard British accent). It sounds noticeably different from the "i" in "possible" which is, truly, a schwa. Thus there are three distinct "i" sounds in Tim, team and possible. (I am aware of the unfortunate confusion between word pairs like bitch and beach for speakers who do not have the short i sound.)
I agree that every language learner should try to mimic native pronunciation, melody and accentuation. That being said, it's almost impossible to get 100% indistinguishable. Nice video!
No, it's not. It just depends on how early you start, how much exposure you get, how much practice you get, how talented you are at it, how motivated you are, etc.
Agree. Languages are intrinsically linked to a nation’s culture and history. I’ve been told my accent, although not perfect to a native’s standards, is Excellent and people feel more comfortable expressing complex ideas, opinions and feelings. We have to remember that it’s human nature to stick with others who are more similar to us. Saludos!
I try to speak "professional" versions of the languages Think of the accent spoken on national TV (SVT here in sweden). I've never heard anyone irl actually speak in that accent but it's one of the clearest and easily understood accents and is intentionally designed to be as such.
Lived in Brasil for a year. Learned a fair bit before that, but I always prefaced my early interactions with "sorry, I know my BP is terrible, but...." The response was always "Wow, your Portuguese is ten times better than anyone that walks in here." Yes, try and emulate the accent of native speakers. It goes miles. The hardest part of learning a new language immersively (as opposed to study) is opening your ears and really listening. That and correct grammatical structure. Don't get me started on slang. I learned Portuguese in Brasil and became accustomed to their accent, inflections, and slang. I still have a very difficult time understanding PT from Portugal.
Local Hispanic people compliment me all the time for pronouncing Español words properly face to face. I say I'm not fluent, but it's a matter of respect for me to at least say names correctly. I try. And they really like that effort. So I keep trying with other languages too. It's fun. 😊
The key, I think, is to strive for a perfect native accent but to be realistic and make yourself aware that you'll never reach it. That way, you always improve but never get angry with yourself. For example, I'm trying to learn Russian, I try my best to get a perfect accent but for the life of me can't pronounce ы but I don't stress about it, I pronounce it like an и and due to the rest of the word and context everyone understands what I say and there's no problem... atleast so far 😅
Thank you Metatron for this channel. Looong time ago I became part of the original noble ones because of your language videos. Then I started watching your other stuff which I'm interested as well but definitely missed the language topic. Grazie e in bocca al lupo al nuovo canale! 🙂
I used to be mistaken for a native speaker but in recent years I let more of my accent slip in in order to be understood by non-native speakers (for whom any British accent is a bit too difficult to understand)
The only other language I learned is English. And having worked with colleagues all over the world, in my experience, it just becomes easier to be understood and to understand if I somehow approach their accents. It sort of switches my head's context. Using culture appropriate figures of speech also helps.
As you already said someone with a musical training especially those with a musical vocal training are pretty much capable to produce every sound simply because you will get a trained ear and a trained vocal apparatus. I got a professional training in singing + playing several instruments (flute, piano, and a little bit of basic guitar playing) in my very early childhood ..not even long because I quit as it became too much time consuming but it were 3 years of several hours per week consistent at the age from 6 till 9.. As a consequence I now can mimic basically every language by sounding like a native without even knowing what I´m actually saying...just give me - as a native speaker - a random sentence in what ever language and I will repeat it by sounding as like a native ..not always at the very first attempt of course, but within 5 minutes and a few tries I will get it. My second language is English (I´m a native German speaker from Austria), and I worked a long time in tourism so I obviously encountered an uncountable number of native English speakers, I can´t even list how often native English speakers then assumed I were a native English speaker as well by just asking me totally out of the blue "Where I´m - "originally" - from and for how long do I live in Austria" and they were always baffled when I clariified that I´m not a native English speaker but a native Austrian living in Austria my whole life...although I´m definitively not perfect in English, of course not....meaning in behalf of vocabulary, meaning I don´t know every single English expression of course, so I´m definitively not "a living English dictionary" and I definitively do not know the meaning of every single English idiom or phrase but I´m capable to express myself in basically every daily life topic.... But to be honest and to be fair, avarage native English speakers don´t know English at the level of perfection either in behalf of grammar + vocabulary and sometimes even in pronouncing certain English words which aren´t part of their daily vocabulary...no native speaker of what ever language is perfect in his native language, unless linguists who studied those professionally for years in every aspect.
My parents came to the US from Mexico in their teens, and I can confidently say they sound like native or if not near native English speakers. I also have learned German and have spoken it conversationally for many years, to the point where natives tell me my pronunciation is above average and I’m very satisfied with that. I know it isn’t native, and I don’t mind because I try my best and that’s enough for me
This is my third video of yours i watch and i was flabbergasted you are NOT a brit! Very well done. To my german ear your accent sounds like you where born and raised in the London Area.
I think this lines up with what you're saying so... Yes, you should try to communicate as best as you can with the native tongue, dialects, and mannerisms of the place you're at. Most people will appreciate the effort, like you more, and be more helpful and forgiving to you. But, no, unless you're one of those exceptions he mentioned, you're probably not get it perfect or maybe even right at all. But time and conscious effort will improve your communication skills and their ability to understand you. I found (in general) if you apply earnest effort most people will help you and give you more grace than you'd expect. You may even get a few of the natives to open up to you, which is a cool unexpected benefit.
From my experience, the "ih" sound is derived from the "ee" sound since most of the words where it occurs are of Latin origin. I suspect it has someothing to do with Grimm's Law
For me, I'm trying to learn Japanese as a native English speaker (well, I used to also speak Korean), and I thought a good place to pick up mannerisms and accent was anime. I've learned that that's only partially correct because in a lot of anime, the way people speak is very dramatic and would probably sound weird in natural speech.
I have a talent for vocal impressions so I’m able to get close to native speaker sounds I even if I just know a few phrases. Some people think I’m proficient in Spanish when my knowledge at the beginner level. I have to be careful when I speak so they don’t try to have a full on conversation with me in Spanish lol. I am currently learning French and I’m confident once I’m conversational I’ll be able to sound more like a native.
I think it very heavily depends on your target language and your intentions with that language. Holiday, or work? Maybe your target language has a similar phonology and you already sound 80% native when you say your first sentences. Like you could give someone speaking an Eastern European language something written in another Eastern European language, but using the orthography of the first language and most people would sound quite native even if they never tried learning a foreign language. Maybe you're trying to learn English, where someone living in Britain has probably seen both Star Wars and Mad Max and they've had plenty of exposure to accents that don't sound like the one they grew up with. And even if they somehow haven't, they still most likely only understand English, so they'll have to make do. Maybe your target language is Danish where native speakers are only I used to the standard and maybe their local dialect if it sounds somewhat different. They also speak English, so if they don't like your accent, they'll just try to switch to English. In English you can have the strongest Italian accent and people will still understand you, sounding more native is mostly optional. In Danish if you as an Italian speaker don't aspirate and activate your posives, they'll just consider you as someone who doesn't know a word of Danish.
When I speak, Russian, German, and Greek as an Australian, I don’t focus on my accent but rather making sure I get the pronunciation of the words right. I will admit that I do have a unique accent when I speak each of them, but it’s something that naturally develops on its own and doesn’t really emulate the way natives speak. As a non-native, trying to emulate the pronunciation or accent of a native isn’t really beneficial. It will just come across as imitating an accent, like if I were to put on an American accent for instance.
I have my mom who lived here her entire life, learnt the language as a child and speaks mostly it today and for at least 25 years, but she didn't use it often until her adult life, my friend still says that she has a Russian accent.
With so many variants used by people who speak a language natively it can take years just to understand the radio or television broadcasts of the English Language used world wide. For my listening understanding, I just do the best I am able. I never ever attempt to correct someone's accent that is different than my own when communicating in German, Latin or English. It makes more sense to me to learn the origins of words and how they may have been used in past centuries, than to sort my way through multiple accents or dialects of a language. Now if another person really messes up with their grammar usage, I first ask what their logic is for doing so and then suggest another way that is better. Otherwise just carry on as best you can. And to that end, I do spend hours every week learning how people speak German, Latin or English in various countries and regions around the world. Learning regional dialects better is what I like doing. TV shows, sitcoms, movies and the like are my choices. Although, In Switzerland...they actually do have language schools for natives and visitors who want to learn the local variant of Swiss German of the are they are working and living in, that is different from the area where they grew up. And in Germany there are language schools that will teach a Swiss person how to communicate better in High German and lessen their usage of their local Canton Dialect, so that they are better understood in Germany when engaging in business ventures. Then there are the movie stars, who will have a voice coach teach them how to pronounce words in a language style, they are not used to using for a role they will be playing.
I'm trying to learn Spanish while trying to maintain a functional level of Italian. I am told that when I speak Italian, I sound very English, but when I speak Spanish I sound Italian.... However my biggest problem is interference - when I try to say something in either language functional words such as pronouns and prepositions from the other language creep in. The way I have been trying to deal with this is to concentrate on the difference in phonology between the two languages. Is this a good scheme? By the way - I love your South London accent!
Interference between romance language I have experienced a lot. A short while after I started to learn Spanish, it totally covered my French, and so it did with two of my classmates. (Italian and again French)
Wait what it's South London? Don't get me wrong I'm not insulting his accent I just have no idea how to tell accents even though I live in London. Well I can tell accents apart, but unless I actively go and learn what an accent sounds like, I'm not going to match it to a name
I might have a little similar problem with accent, possibly, more with confusing languages. Romance languages, have many words that are not completely the same, though very close in spelling and pronunciation. Spanish and Italian have that. They are lexically similar by 80-85%.
I wouldn't be surprised if it's in another vid. But what is your first language? I would ASSUME it's Italian, but I'm curious to hear. Also wondering if you think some languages are better suited for learning to pick another one than others. Sort of how an English speaker may seemingly have an easier time with German. Commented to early XD, you mentioned your difficulty with the letter "I"
I just try my hardest to get the closest I can to a native. But luckily my target language is Spanish and there are so many different natives from so many different countries. Additionally, Native Spanish speakers born in my city (in Kentucky) have an accent kinda similar to my gringo accent. 😂
While I was younger, I chose to learn many languages because my dad was bigot. He probably did not know it. My mom was forbidden to speak Occitan, but she and I continued speaking it, but I thought I was speaking French until I took it in school. I find it easier to watch foreign TV and use what I learn. I had put my foot in my mouth many times.
it all depends on where and what in the country you want to learn to evoke and even small countries have vast varients. I grew up on the North East border and retained that sound even though my family was one of those who lost their language 80 years ago. But a teacher soon told me that I sounded as though I came from there even though I was learning in South East Cymru. I'd learned the accent as a child without understanding the words. Listening to accents even when they speak English can help you home in. I'm thinking of Burtons sexy South Welsh from the valleys north of Swansea . Regardless of the language he is speaking it sounds erudite and urbane. We project more than our own history when we speak a new language and can manipulate the hearers perceptions of us according to how we sound.
Something I never hear linguists talk about: JOKES. A silly one-liner (whether in delivery or an impulsive belly-laugh), I feel, is the final step to mastering a language.
Great topic. I agree I think it is possible but at the same time it isn't necessary. It depends on why you are learning. I am of those people who has always put priority on pronunciation when I have started pronunciation. From my experience I think when you first start learning a language this is the critical time for learning pronunciation because after you study for maybe a couple of years it in a way becomes fixed. For example if you are learning a tonal language, in the beginning you are constantly thinking about the tones, after a couple of years you don't think about it anymore. So if you have bad habits at that point there likely to persist. And I think it is difficult to correct later. For example, if you learn Vietnamese, if you learn a southern accent it's kind of difficult to switch to a northern accent. I think if you understand ipa it might help you can learn the differences between the vowels of one language and another. I failed at Korean but I remember the frustration of pronunciation because I didn't understand then that the a in my apple was not the same as the a in my apple. I only had the realization years later. It's funny sometimes the way the vowels roll of my tongue I feel like I am speaking Thai with a Vietnamese accent lol.
You should try to sound like i a native for one simple reason. You will make them feel more comfortable around you simply because you're preseeved as more relatable and less distant and foreign. The less you understand someone, the less human they will appear in your mind,and thus its easier to just have prejudice or not feeling like interacting with them (Btw this is anecdotal and entirely subconscious)
my grandmother's parents were natives and their children spake Italian as natives and my own grandmother only learned English from radio and television and struggled with English as pertaining to reading and if you take a look at such families native the children most of them can and do speak the native family spoken language. my teachers in language class thought I was a native Italian when speaking. Since not being with others constantly I don't have the day to day conversation. Also you need to have the 'need' to speak the language to have it kick in, at least for me now since I am not in the Italian niche. my grandfather spoke with a Mediterranean accent while my grandmother the mountains of Abruzzi e Molise. As a child I spoke the Italian fluent to my great aunts and a neapolitan family and also Cretan Greek to the greek family I was acquainted with.
My understanding is that most Europeans can speak English as a second language, and they generally learn from instructors speaking British English or American English. How do I know? From the way they pronounce words, at least certain words that British and Americans pronounce differently. You will be able to tell an Italian who learned English from an American instructor from an Italian who learned English from a British instructor from their pronunciation, and you probably will be able to recognize from their accent that they are Italians speaking English as a second language. I mention this because I cannot imagine anyone being offended by their pronunciation. They are doing their best with the accent they learned from and are not trying to fool anyone. My take on this is that you should learn a language by listening to native speakers and do your best to use that accent, knowing that the idea is to communicate, not to try and "fool" the person listening into thinking you are a native. If you use how your own language is pronounced, that communication may not work well, especially if you are reading a word. An example of this happened years ago when a Hispanic man trying to ask dad a question about his wife (my mother). "Wife" was being pronounced "weefay", because he was using Spanish pronunciations of an English word and not realizing that the "e" at the end is silent. He was trying very hard to learn English from a book. My dad finally asked him to repeat his question in Spanish, or we never would have figured out what he was trying to say.
Actually accents do tend to kind of wear off on you. Before moving to Canada my accent was mostly British (at least Canadians often took me for a Brit, I doubt any Brit would), but after a few months my accent started to mix with a Canadian accent. Now my natural way of speaking is this odd mix of different accents that grew naturally, though when teaching I can often revert to a more British accent
You've struck a cord with this channel, I'm so into accents, and my main focus is English. I also know some level of Italian and German, so am looking forward to the videos.
Regarding the musicians: it's not the pianists and violinists that will be best at pronunciation. I was discussing this with one of my linguistics teachers, and he told me that the two groups of people that can fluently read the IPA (international phonetic alphabet) are linguists and opera singers. They will not always know the language they sing in, but they can VERY closely approximate the native pronunciation by using IPA, because it is a far more objective representation of pronunciation than any other way of 'spelling' language (since writing language in ANY other way means the method is subject to the linguistic rules the person is familiar with, i.e. how written language corresponds to the pronunciation in their accent, instead of a particular symbol always corresponding the same sound) Anyway, I believe in pronunciation being tied to the reasons for learning the language. If you want to know how to simply communicate in the language, that is quite different from wanting to assimilate into the culture where that language is being spoken. I agree that your pronunciation has to be on-point for certain aspects (i.e. you have to know which sounds are phonemes and which are allophones to prevent confusion, as, for example, a Spanish speaker, you have to be able to pronounce the h at the start of the sentence when you want to say house). There are different ways of having an "accent", but the ways different accents affect comprehensibility is the most important part, and for that you need to look at the languages on an analytical linguistic level, which is something rarely if ever offered in real life unless you really dig into academic articles.
Perfect IPA does not correspond to perfect understanding. Not at all. English alone changes the IPA vowels of any given word depending on things like emphasis and sentence structure. It can actually lead to misunderstandings. In Spanish, my native language, we would never tweak the vowels like that for things like emphasis, we use volume and consonant quality instead. VERY different!!! It's important to delve deep into the phonetics of a language and to never trust any IPA like a bible. Because it's not. It's for how a word was said in one specific moment, don't draw any more conclusions from that.
@@crusaderACR Dude, who hurt you? IPA is the gold standard in writing down and discussing the pronunciation of consonants and vowels, regardless of the language you're talking about. If you mean that IPA doesn't cover the entire pronunciation of the language, well, I never claimed that it does? I said opera singers use it, they also have sheet music that tells them how high or long a particular vowel is meant to be. In general though, IPA does a good job at regularizing the patterns native speakers have, and it allows people to study different dialects and differences between languages. Part of this is the transcription of the spoken word, but it can absolutely be used as a tool for language learners. In that sense, it is a FAR more useful tool than trying to approximate it by spelling out the words the way people not trained in IPA might, because it removes at least some of the ambiguity. I never ever said that IPA should be trusted "like a bible". But I disagree with you saying that IPA is useless because it's only about one specific instant. There certainly are sources that show regularized IPA pronunciation, which, as I said, can be extremely helpful for learning to sound more native because it helps you train your mouth's muscles and muscle memory to become more accustomed to the sounds of that language, which might be difficult otherwise as we tend to be quite deaf to the way one language differs from another. I never said this was the ONLY way, or that it's the ENTIRE way.
@@nate6511 "Who hurt you" That's a rude thing to say. Just because we disagree doesn't make us enemies. I think I got your meaning. I'll elaborate on what I meant and maybe we'll be enemies no longer. Look, IPA is great. It uses simple human anatomy to express all sounds a human can make. But, you still need a great dose of listening to natives because natives don't follow their own IPA all day all the time. What languages do you speak? Do you know some Spanish? I'll try illustrating using English and Spanish. The point I'm trying to convey is that although IPA is excellent at showing us the vowels and consonants used by natives, natives naturally don't speak rigidly and tolerate some variation on the sounds. Why? Because language is a human thing, and humans are lazy af. The longer the sentence, the lazier humans get with individual words. So take this word: From. In Wiktionary it shows stressed and unstressed variants, because guess what, its vowel sounds drastically different depending on its function in the sentence. Example: Where are you from? I'm from Chicago. Notice that the "from" in the first instance is a little longer and rounder, and in the second it's short (almost mute, in a way) and turned in a very dim schwa. At least in natural English. IF you said the "from" too clear it is taken as if you're emphasizing it... which in this case makes little sense. This is called "weak forms" if you want to research but similar changes can happen to all words. Every single English speaker, no matter the region or time period, uses weak forms. Words susceptible to this include to, a, an, the, from, for, and in some accents my, your, etc. In Spanish what you see a lot and I mean a LOT is consonants turning soft or lazy. Not doing that is unnatural, but of course doing that too much is no good either. Vowels however can NEVER carry a weak form of a vowel, the vowels must stay mostly unchanged (sans for expressing your current mood or opinion but that's another topic). See this word: Opción Forget about the C, the difference there is regional. The IPA, at least in wiktionary, shows the P quite interestingly in every mentioned region as being a retracted β. But that's not how I say it. Some of my friends say it like a K, others emphasize a strong P too much, for others it's completely silent. Edit: I remembered just now, i also heard it as a glottal stop, which isn't supposed to even exist in our language yet the times i heard it it was most often from monolinguals, fascinating to say the least. But if you ask them "ok read this single word by itself and try to do it naturally" it will sound like in Wiktionary. Same in short sentences like "Opción A". But in casual speech, that consonant just is everything and nothing at once. You can only grasp this idea if you leave IPA aside and try hearing how natives say it and notice that that P might as well be decoration. I hope we agree on something now.
Now that I have started learning a new language with an app where real people say the words and sentences I can not imagine any other method than trying to pronounce words as accurately as I can. It makes reading and writing so much easier, too. Sometimes I know all the right letters but just can't produce the sounds😜 As a teacher myself I konow that the problem with a student's own accent is, that it often isn't just an accent but an incapacity to produce the right phonemes. Often that means they end up saying different words than they meant to and at least the listener has to guess what was said.
I feel like part of the idea that you can't learn to be fluent might stem from the fact that when a group of people from one country migrate to another, they usually, instead of adopting the existing accent perfectly, tend to create a new accent within that langauge. Which may cause some unconscious bias on this topic. But even then I think many of those people can switch between speaking the "normal" accent and speaking in their own accent. This is prob mostly true if their financial and legal opportunities/repercussions are influenced by their perceived level of national/social acclimation. I could be wrong in this take tho.
