Thank you. I am sick and tired of some reviewers dismissing EVs because they are not yet 100% drop in replacements for ICE vehicles. Thank you for drawing lines around where today's EVs are a good fit and acknowledging that they do not yet cover the same footprint as gas vehicles. Yes, by all means rent before you buy and try an EV out on a road trip. IMPORTANT: do your homework. Charging anxiety is real and planning your route and charging stops and understanding how to adjust if a charger is unavailable is essential to relieving road tripping stress. (And, quite possibly, averting disaster.)
No one needs to swap every 6 months. There’s still people driving and enjoying Leaf with chademo. This transition isn’t the end of the world for existing owners. Adapters will get made.
Yes I have a 2012 leaf Kyle max and Dave are wrong about chademo. My 900,000 city is installing new ccs chademo it will be around Leaf fa are still sold
As EV take up increases. taxes will increase. As you say, they will have to fill the tax coffers some way and it will just come from EV drivers as well. I am taking advantage while there are the financial incentives and benefits.@@tazeat
I think it matters how many road trips you take each year or if you dont have access to home charging. For 1-2 road trips a year, I don’t think it matters if you need to use an adapter. If you supercharge regularly, I’d wait for NACS.
My plan is to keep my EV for 10+ years. With that goal in mind, knowing NACS is the true future port, I'm waiting. Otherwise I'll need to use an adapter more and more and more throughout the car's life.
@@mydroneadventures8807There has been exactly 0 official news saying that ports will be swapped out later. Rather than bet on an uncertainty, I'll wait for a confirmation. Plus, waiting means more cars will hit the market, hopefully resulting in more competition, lower prices, and more choices too. I don't have to wait that long, a little longer than a year. I have a working car and no other urgency thankfully.
@@mydroneadventures8807 Swapping the CCS plug hardware to Tesla is not trivial as the Tesla hardware is physically larger behind the tiny plug. and each CCS port location is in a different spot from car model to model . Anyway we'd be crabbing about how the navigation software is still poor locate charging locations. I have a right rear port on an 800 volt vehicle. not much space there. It will take some engineering to adapt, perhaps they'll design a retrofit NACS that would fit better. That's why it is a few years to design the change.
@@mydroneadventures8807 remember it's not just the port that has to change but shunting of DC AC on the shared pins as the existing onboard charging system isn't likely to support this method. Tesla has special contactors driven by the BMS to disconnect from the battery pack depending on the voltage. Tesla puts these relays in the port housing part itself; it's huge. as the BMS on existing CCS-1 vehicles and these contactors would likely have to be implemented, this is why I think retrofits are unlikely. I don't really get the aversion to adapters honestly; Tesla owners use them all the time for J1772 EVSE and NACS port to CCS-1 DC chargers.
Totally depends on how available (to CCS) the Supercharger network starting in ‘24; if they’re readily available, I’d get a certified DC adapter and just never allow it away from the car. Currently, I’ve a LECTRON L2 adapter for Tesla-to-J1772 for destination chargers, but DC charging is a whole different ball game (way too much current/amps going through).
State of Charge channel tested a Tesla to CCS1 adapter and it works. The manufacturer shared that it has multiple temperature sensors in the adapter which operate in redundancy to prevent overheating. He could not deny or verify the auto manufacturers they are working with though.
EV6 owner here. The issues I ran into this weekend while road tripping was Chevy Bolt Owners charging on DCFC at 43kw with intensions of charging to 100%. Estimated time to charge for each was over 1 hour. EA in Chicopee, MA had 2 chargers down and 2 chargers occupied by bolts...(4 chargers total at that location.) Waiting in line was an Ioniq6, ioniq5 and my ev6 (each with 800V architecture that can handle ~ 250kW). It was comparable to 2 cars driving 40 miles an hour on a highway when the speed limit is 75 and not letting anyone pass. Rarely do I give the stink eye to other EV owners....but I did on this occasion I sure did.
One of the things that is most important to keep in mind: if you are part of a couple or a family-as a 2nd car-any EV now is great-no need at all to wait. ONLY when an EV is going to be a primary car does it get complicated-and non Tesla customers should wait another 20 months-but Tesla customers could have a Tesla as a primary car without any issues. All because of the charging network.
As Ioniq 5 owner that loves the car, but hates the misery on road trips, there’s no way I would buy another EV that can’t charge at Tesla as well. Hopefully they’ll work out the slow charging problem between Tesla stations and the Hyundai products. Fortunately, I only take one long road trip a year from Indianapolis to South Florida and back, but if I had to do it regularly, I would’ve already traded this thing off on something else.
I drove across the USA and Canada in a Chevrolet Bolt. I now added an Ioniq 6 to my driveway. I have not had any problems getting charged on CCS chargers. Actually, if anything, I believe I would get degraded charging capability on the Tesla chargers since they are designed for 400v cars and not 800v, at least until they install v4 superchargers. On that note, I was in Quebec recently and at one of the locations I charge on my way to New Brunswick there is a huge supercharger installation going in (14 or 16 chargers, IIRC) and they are v3 chargers.
Interesting so in your case, it's not too bad. I wonder if those manufacturers remaining with CCS will carry on and improve the network and they will end up with fewer cars trying to use CCS and better customer experience?@@photogravity
It's not that big of a deal to use a NACS adapter. There will still be CCS chargers on the road as well, so you still have two options either way. You shouldn't super-charge the car that much anyway, it's not good for the battery.
Bought an ID4 in BC, the announcement happened of all the bandwagon jumping just as we were ablut to take delivery. Wasnt stoked at the time and considered cancelling, but the vehickes we were replacing were on deaths door. Then right after delivery, we successfully did a 2000km road trip around BC towing a tent trailer, and had no issues with charging. Once an adaptor is available to use tesla chargers, it will be even better. Just leave the dang adapter in the car, and youll have options for a long time. CCS was standard from ~2012 onwards in North America, there are going to be CCS connectors around for a long time. There are still CHAdeMO plugs everywhere, and those were only used for a handful of low volume models. There are/will be hundreds of thousands of CCS-based EVs on the roads for the next couple decades, there will he chargers. At the end of the day its up to you. We went ahead with it because our existing cars were getting too far gone to keep driving for 2 more years. We only do massive road trips 1-2 times/year, and our experience so far with thay (while towing no less) showed that the CCS experience around our province is more than fine. Our next vehicle will also be an ev, and will probably be a NACS based one by the time we get it. And life will carry on.
19:00 We have used Shell Recharge recently for fast charging CCS and it has been a good experience. I forget the $/KWH but it was not cheap. Still glad to have it.
Do you think that the CCS version of a car with an adapter would decrease in resale value more than the same model with NACS? Will the “Osborne Effect” slow down the market with people waiting for the NACS version of the car?
I think it’ll. As a consumer, I want the ultimate convenience. I don’t want to deal w juggling an adapter and remembering to bring one. Just had my first Tesla super charger experience and it was w the magic dock. It was my best fast charging experience ever. It was so simple. Most ppl are not tech savvy enough to figure out the challenges of ccs charging. They want to just plug and charge. Even having to deal w a nacs adapter is too complicated.
I know this video is nine months old at this point, but I currently have a Tesla and I’m waiting until next year to replace it as I have a wall connector at home and have no desire to mess with an adapter on a daily basis for the next however many years I have my next EV.
i have a question as too what this looks like in Europe where tesla has had to conform to the CCS2 standard? will there be a point where any electric car can use any Tesla supercharger?
My next EV is going to be a Volvo for not only the Tesla access but also where the charging port is located. As it's similar to Tesla, I won't have to worry about waiting for V4 chargers or parking awkwardly. I can just back in like a Tesla. That's huge to me. Probably going to trade my current ev for a 2024 XC40 recharge mainly for this reason.
I’m sorry, did you watch that video for the adapter all the way through esp the interview part? You missed the adapter maker stating they are working with Tesla and getting certified on their adapter for auto makers to use for OEM. Please fully watch videos you are wanting to use as talking points. Must have also missed in the video the presenter even stating to watch out for knock off brands and do research.
That’s exciting but it’s all unknown. Adaptor supply and options is something we’ll definitively cover when the market actually exists. If you want to learn more can’t argue with the great work Tom does at State of Charge, watch him! In all honesty I hadn’t seen the video but the general third party issue Dave and I brought up stands. Who’s ultimately responsive when you don’t buy an OEM component? Right now nothing is certified and there’s nothing on market. Glad they sent Tom an early unit to look at!
Think of your residual value though -even if you don't need NACS in your use case - cars with no NACS inlet are going to be worth less 3-5 years from now, when you go to sell it, as compared to the first cars to have NACS plugs
Presumably only in the US. Haven't VW invested heavily in Electrify America, maybe that is why they are not immediately getting in line with Tesla. Not sure if I were VW, I'd like to be beholden to Tesla - to be honest. What I don't understand and perhaps someone can explain it to me, are the non Tesla cabinets just having a connector change and if so, is that where all the issues lay or are you expecting all manufacturers who have signed up to this agreement just to use superchargers (with or without a connector) and the CCS chargers are made redundant or just used by those who don't switch?
@@philhartley7551 that's the question, isn't it? some Supercharger sites already are pretty full, and let's not talk about holidays in major travel corridors. i'd be a bit concerned if I was Tesla about the increased stresses that will be put on cables as they are stretched to reach different port locations.
Max, you probably know this but Francie's channel said Flying J will partner with EVgo but Flying J will charge 50 cents a KWH (at least in Knoxville, TN). I'd still charge my R1T if I needed to and I'm grateful to have any working fast CCS chargers but ouch. We have used Shell Recharge recently for fast charging CCS and it has been a good experience. I forget the $/KWH but it was not cheap.
I went from a 2008 Ford Escape hybrid to a 2012 Chevrolet Volt. After 11 years of very satisfied Volt ownership, I decided to move to a 2023 M3 with FSD. Huge mistake. I understand that only Tesla has any idea of how to design, make, and support (although my Tesla service experience completely sucked) electric cars. But given the reality of non-Tesla charging infrastructure and my desire to travel around NA a bit, I am going back to a plug in hybrid. I only have about 12 years of driving left, and a good plug-in gives me most of what I love about driving electric. I wish I could find my old Volt, but the Prius Prime plug in is at least a reasonable facsimile. Widespread EV charging is not going to get better in my lifetime in North America. Now if only Toyota could allocate more Prius Prime's to NA...
I would push back on this farce of only OEM is good, OEM can be crap depending on the part, but think about your iPhone charger, you will buy an off brand one to save $5 when you are risking your 1400 iPhone pro. Third party testing to a standard is far more important that trusting OEMs
I suspect that these automaker agreements to use NACS go way beyond just using Tesla superchargers. I haven’t read any fine print, but I would not be surprised if automakers standardize other aspects of charging beyond just the NACS connector, such as port location on the car, identity standards for plug and charge, etc. One of the big reasons CCS is so complex is that they have needed to accommodate so many automakers without vertical control that Tesla has. Tesla charging on these cars probably won’t be great until they design their cars for NACS. I suspect the magic dock solution won’t be the same despite the protocol being the same.
It'd be interesting to see how non-Tesla charging companies implement NACS connectors. The cheapest way would be an adapter for their existing stations, much like how Tesla did the Magic Dock where an unremovable (or at least really hard to take off without breaking it) adapter gets installed and then has to be put back in. I'd imagine the upcoming V4 superchargers will also have a Magic Dock installed in them as well, where it's a normal NACS connector for Tesla and other EV's adopting NACS, or have the CCS adapter hooked in when using a CCS EV. As to the question on this topic, I'd agree with what they said. If you want a daily driver EV and don't plan to take too many long ranged trips in them, an EV will work. But for now Tesla has a huge advantage because of the Supercharger network, and the vertical integration associated with it, where the car knows where all the superchargers are. And how it'll automatically add superchargers along your route to make sure you get to where you're going, and precondition the battery so you can charge much faster and be on your way,. And in the event there's a wait or the charge session will take a while, you can pass the time in the car with video streaming or gaming. Have a dog with you? No problem, turn Dog Mode on, and the car will keep the climate control on with a message informing passersby that the pet isn't in danger of overheating/freezing. It's all these little things that Tesla does for their cars and the supercharger network that makes them a superior for now option. Sure, other EV's have more range, or can charge faster. But when you look at the whole picture, it's hard to beat a Tesla if you're looking for an EV to do most if not all your driving wants and needs.
At a minimum you should not buy a car that doesn't have a NACS approved adapter available today..... AND has the port in the correct location on the vehicle. Showing up to busy chargers and trying to take 2 or 3 stalls is just going to get you in a lot of fist fights.
Most EVs are fairly expensive. A car that requires an adapter to (CCS1) DC Fast Charge is compromised. An adapter is a temporary solution and I am not interested in spending $40,000 or more for an inherently compromised vehicle. My opinion is the automakers should make a commitment to retrofit the CCS ports on their vehicles with NACS ports. I'm waiting.
Fantastic discussion as always, Max. Tons of info. Subscribed to Dave's channel. I had watched Tom's video about the 3rd party adapter. I will wait for the official Rivian adapter from Rivian if only because Rivian will support the adapter, therefore, no risk to me.
Oh… Dave, I bet'cha that slower charging for non-Teslas on NACS will speed up by the time the transition kicks off. No way Ford (or others) will be satisfied with less that 50kW charging. I would buy a Hyundai Ioniq 5 right now, knowing that NACS adapters are imminent, but… there are other reasons to wait: the factory starting up in Georgia a year from now, with a NACS port onboard, thus qualifying for at least some tax incentive, the switch from E-GMP to IMA, possibly a bigger battery with more range, including a rear window wiper -like on the "N" variation.
Ford can do nothing about that , it's all up to Tesla- they set the parameters.. That's why the 800 volt E-GMP group was in discussions with Tesla to get some assurances. The Cybertruck is alleged to be 800 volts , perhaps they will split the pack to charge like GM on the existing 400 volts Superchargers.
@@JohnRoss1 Don't bet on it. This week Ford is conducting Beta testing at numerous Superchargers with 500 Lightning owners equipped with adapters and special phone apps.
Gentlemen. Once again, don't believe that these companies are going to adapt to the NACS system. There is so much that can happen between now and next year. i.e. the labor strike for one.
A couple of points 1/ I am really surprised at how bad the CCS charging system appears to be in the US. I'm in the UK and drive throughout Western Europe quite a lot and we have nowhere near the CCS problems that the US encounters. 2/ Be careful what you wish for. If the CCS charging point providers are that bad, do you think they will be that much better with the NACS connector? My suspicion is that, as soon as adapters are available, CCS drivers will head straight for Tesla superchargers (not EV Go etc) and unless Tesla have significant expansion plans in place, you are going to see significant queues at superchargers. Also, even V4s are not particularly well designed for other vehicles where the charging port may be in a different place. finally, I think those early Tesla adopters will resent having the supercharger network being opened up to all. A benefit, which they thought was exclusive to them, is no longer exclusive. we now get queues at Tesla stations but at eats they can use CCS if they need to and I often see Teslas at CCS stations. I'm glad this is a debate, CCS v NACS, that won't happen over here.
Keep in mind that Electrify America is thr only real national ccs network on major highway routes. Most other CCS chargers are fixed in high population areas to get more customers to justify the install cost. Electrify America is owned by VW and was built as punishment for the dieselgate scandal. They dont invest very little money into the network to keep it maintained. The U.S. also has half the population of Europe with twice the land mass. So the basic economics is that Europe has 4x the infrastructure ability as the U.S.
I've hired a model 3 in the US and the charging wasn't good. Maybe because I was charging at around 50% where I was only getting around 36kW. Can't speak much for the US but in the UK and Europe, my CCS experiences have been fine@@Wasabi9111
Yes, that is a difference between the US and UK. Obviously there is a significant land mass scale difference also but here we have numerous charging networks which are quite evenly spread, Ionity, BP Pulse, Shell Recharge, Instavolt, Gridserve, Pod Point, EON, MFG, Chargepoint, Weev. Osprey, Fastned to name a few. Some are more regional than others, such as Fastned, but most are UK wide. We even have 25 Tesla charging stations that are open to non Teslas, because we all use CCS - except for the CHADEM0 cars but even so, they are quite well catered for too.@@GROGU123
@@philhartley7551 NACS is a superior connector. It’s smaller, more elegant, easier to handle and plug in. It can also do twice the wattage of CCS. We dont’t have 3 phase power in nearly all homes. So we can reduce pins. I’m glad we’ll eventually standardize on NACs.
It would not help “waiting” to buy a car with a NACS plug on it if there are no Tesla Superchargers around to plug into. Go southeast of your home location, southeast of Denver into western Kansas, northwest Oklahoma, the Texas panhandle and try to use your NACS-equipped EV to charge. Guess what, you can’t! Because southeast of Denver in the western half of Kansas, northwest Oklahoma, and the Texas panhandle, there are no Tesla Superchargers at all. As a matter of fact, there are no CCS fast-charging locations in that part of the world either. So having a NACS plug on your EV would make no difference to a large part of the country.
@@brendykes1202Yes you are indeed correct. But my point was where are there any Superchargers north of Amarillo/I-40 in the Texas panhandle, in the northwest quarter of Oklahoma or the Oklahoma Panhandle, or the western half of Kansas south of I-70? The answer is, as I said in my post, there aren’t any! Example: it is 308 miles from Wichita, KS to Lamar, CO, the next location on US 50 with a Supercharger or DCFC of any kind.
@@glenngore6609 it is inconvenient and longer, but ABRP routes it on I-70. 424 miles, 6h. 45min for MYLR. Certainly doable. I always tell people it is easier to cross the country than to take an EV between North and South Idaho. The middle of the state is a charging desert. For now, interstates and very busy highways are required for EV road trips. The secondary highways will catch up in a few years.
@@oldebill1807 from I’ve read they are in financial trouble anyway, I’m wondering if maybe they will get bought out and then what changes will happen. I don’t think they can die, the industry needs them.
I apologize for the long comment but I feel like the REAL issues with charging that the majority of Americans face (which have nothing to do with road tripping) need to be addressed that aren't not just from Out of Spec but basically all channels that talk about EVs. I realize that there are a lot of RU-vid channels that do a lot of real road tripping in EVs however the overwhelming majority of people in the US only road trip no more than 284 miles so in that aspect any vehicle no matter what the port right now will in fact fit in the overwhelming majority of people's lives. However what is more important & needs to be talked about more than the road trip aspect of EV ownership is just simply charging the car which is what takes HUGE portion out of the EV market no matter what the connecter is. For several million people in this country who live in apartments or condos that either don't have or inadequate level 2 charging they have to rely on having an adequate charging station location, period. The problem is for a HUGE portion of those millions of people they don't even have that. For example, I'm originally from Chicago, the third largest city in America. It's supposed to be a very progressive city & it's led the way in creating things like expansive bike lanes and has one of the best public transportations systems not only in America but the world. However on the south side of the city, which is the largest & most densely populated part of the city, there are a total of two Tesla superchargers & one EA & all three are on the near south side. For the people on the far south side there is exactly one Tesla supercharger and 0 EA but that Tesla charger is in Evergreen Park which is literally just across the street from the city boundary and if you live in the Beverley neighborhood you are good. However if you live where I grew up you are at minum 20 minutes away but more likely 30-40 minutes away from your only charging solution even though the map says 5 miles. Sorry but nobody is going to drive 30 minutes one way likely taking roughly 1 1/2 hours out of their day when they can literally go three blocks & pass three gas stations. I'll also point out that I grew up in a traditional Chicago brick bungalow that was built prewar. In fact the majority of homes built in the surrounding neighborhoods where I grew up were built either prewar or just after which means that there are very few homes that have attached garages and the only electricity running out to them would be for one lightbulb and a garage door. It could easily cost roughly 8k to run power out to those garages which is also prohibitive for even most of the people who live in a home with a garage. I currently live in the DC area which presents another problem which is it's extremely difficult to find homes that are reasonably priced (350k or less) that even have a garage at all. I actually had to move 45 miles out from DC to find a reasonably priced home that had a one car garage because I knew at some point I wanted to buy an EV. If it weren't for the fact that I work from home four out of five days a week owning an EV wouldn't even be a possibility because I'd be forced to buy condo closer to the city.
Level 2 for folks without garages, particularly in cities, is a huge issue and we need to cover it. I grew up in metro DC area and get where you’re coming from. Thanks for the comment!
On street charging is being addressed here in the UK and Europe - not fast enough, but it is happening. You are right, too much focus on range and high speed charging but I guess on street charging is not "sexy" enough, Home and rapid charging are progressing well, destination charging is OK here although we could do with more chargers at hotels for overnight stays. On street is where development needs to happen. Norway is a good example of how to do it.
Great advice Dave. Fully agree with you. Have an EX30 reservation, feeling more comfortable with the choice even though not planning to use it for road trips anytime soon.
Is there any discussion on whether manufacturers will offer a dealer-installed retrofit? For example: It would be great to buy a used Ioniq 5 today, and in a few years to spend $400-700 for a NACS retrofit that the dealer installs, and it's genuine, engineered parts from the manufacturer. I can't imagine the port "module" would be too difficult to replace.
My guess is no, because they'd probably have to replace too many parts or install stuff that's not already on the car which is easier to do on the factory floor. Or there won't be enough EV's to justify the costs of doing this.
It's WAY more involved than just a module. It has to auto detect AC or DC and reroute accordingly. CCS 1 just has all the wires in one point and the connector dictates the type of current
No Radar & proximity sensors (for dim / foggy), no stalks, no BSM lights in side mirrors, no cross-traffic warning, no driver instrument screen, no electric shade for glass roof (in southern states), no XM Serius = No dice …….
@@purveshsane1435 so you are in the price range of a current new or used model 3. Which in the USA come with stalks. Actually I believe all come with stalks worldwide at the current moment.
