Yes, your demonstration with cut open valves really brings up the knowledge level for DIYs!! I have a ton of valves in my place because of a boiler with 3 zones. Most of those valves are 50+ years old. Some leak through the packing stem and you must periodically tighten packing nuts. A couple others have worn washers I'm sure. If the washer wears out or "Disappears" as you point out, then you might also grind down the cup which the washer sits in and ruin the whole valve. The screw which holds the washer in place will also disintegrate; Break off or freeze. Either way, these stop valves are a pain. These are similar valves used on old laundry tub faucets. I find if one tries to get a new washer to repair them, the newer washers are a wee bit thinner and this makes the turn key (shutoff lever) bottom out tight to shut the water off. Old Gate Valves are even more treacherous. If the stem breaks as you force turn it open/closed, the gate will remain in whatever position it was in--if closed, no water. If open, water flows!! A lot of gate valves were used as house shut off valves? The only problem I heard about Ball Valves is they must be used fully open or closed. Otherwise, you will eventually damage the surface of the ball (Being exposed to the flow).
As a service plumber, and from a serviceability standpoint I prefer the multi-turn compression shut offs. With them being designed more like a globe valve, they have the benefit of being able to throttle flow, and if need be, the packing nut and stem can be removed to change the washer or just install all new guts inside, way easier to service the multi-turn compression style in a multi story building, water can be shut off and very quick to pop the guts out and tighten in new guts quick. Another benefit is if the valve is being soldered onto copper, the guts can be removed before soldering so the heat doesn't damage the rubber, the 1/4 turn style can easily get over heated and I had one blow apart on me and flood a house, learned my lesson there. Anything goes wrong with a 1/4 turn and they're not serviceable. Another great video Matt.
Having 8 houses to do maintenance on from our rental properties, the only shut off valves that have failed on me doing this for about a decade have all been compression valves. I much prefer ball valves for any sort of shutoff.
Thank you. I was at The Home Depot just an hour ago and I asked the guy in the plumbing department which is better, a quarter turn or multiple-turn valve. His response: Some people prefer the quarter turn. So helpful... LOL.
Hello Matt: New to the channel, but have seen shut off valves cause massive damage. Appreciate the time/effort to explain the merits of a better choice. Thank you.
Handyman with over twenty years exp here. Love ball valves. But must say, the old brass stem/rubber washer combo is not bad either, you just have to replace the rubber washers from time to time and it is cheap and easy to do. I absolutely hate some of these modern valves with ceramic cores, rubber o rings etc. The old type with rubber washers are so easy to fix and so cheap too.
It’s a good idea, if accessible, to open and close the shut off valves periodically. Over time hard water can form deposits on the mechanism of the shut off valve and make it almost impossible to operate the valve. Turning it on and off a few times every couple of months is the best way I have found, to keep it operating.
Just finishing building a new house and I specified "use ONLY ball valves" in my entire house to the plumbing contractor. Having come from a house we lived in (first owners) for 22 years, I can tell you that moving away from the old, cheap standard washer based supply cut-off valve to these really hardy ball valves was a no-brainer.
I love brass stem valves, replacing the rubber seat (gasket) is a lot easier if you maintain them properly. You should change them as soon as they are no longer softly closing, they use to sell the rubber seats for a nickel. Hey look at the old one you got; even with NO rubber seat it was somehow working. We are just too busy to go over the HOME MAINTENACE LIST.
I’ve replaced several quarter turn valves due to mineral deposits preventing the valve from fully turning. Valves were only 12 years old. City water isn’t so hard it leaves deposits when it evaporates.
Thanks for a great video. Ball valves last longer (should be good in low service areas- you turn them off and on once in a blue moon such as during servicing the toilet etc.) but have to be replaced as a unit when leaking and this will be a pain then. The multiturn with the gasket will have to be serviced from year to year with the gasket (which rarely a homeowner does unless a maintenance guy from a company with a task list does it) or else deposits will eat the rubber gasket away until the valve leaks when you need to service the equipment or apparatus attached to it. With the multiturn valve, if there is no available stem repair kit or unable to make one up, if one is patient and it is not leaking like crazy, all is needed is to plug the end of the hose attached to it to stop the leak for the meantime and just reconnect it to the equipment when needed with a little spill. The most important takeaway is that if it leaks and one has not destroyed the body by forcing it, it is an easy fix with the gasket for a DIYer. Ball valves leak and seize over time due to sediment build-up and more so if turned on and off frequently and are better to be operated either fully open or fully closed and not on throttle position for long periods of time.
I maintain an old apartment building. About thirty years ago when I began working on the building more than half the compression style shut off valves would not shut off the water. When ball valve shut off valves became available I switched to them. I believe I've been installing them for about 15 years now. I've had one failure. It was a Keeney from Lowes. Originally since I was having good luck with the Keeney's I stuck with them. After the failure, I started using Brasscraft from Home Depot. as well I've had zero failures with those. As to the comment below about being able to throttle the water more easily with compression style angle stops: Huh? Why would you need that? Even if you needed to throttle the water with the angle stop, something that seems unlikely to me, ball valve angle stops can do it. My general sense of it is that compression style angle stops begin to fail just about the time you need them to work when you are installing a new fixture to replace the old one. I also have used non-name brand shut off valves. Whoa, that was really stupid. The failure of a a shut off valve can be a cause of massive damage. If there is any plumbing part where spending money to get a more reliable part is justified it is shut off valves.. As an aside, I think Lowes may have stopped carrying compression style shut off valves. From my perspective that was the right decision. Old style compression shut off valves should not be installed when a much better product is available for an insignificant amount of money.more.
A bit of a sad (to me) update on my experience with ball valve angle stops. I've been working on some units that had new ball valves installed about 10 years ago. 3 of the 4 Keeney valves had failed. It seems like the plastic shank for the handle becomes brittle and breaks over time. There was another failure mechanism as well. I don't know if the newer Keeney valves have been improved but I have now switched entirely to Brasscraft angle stops which might be just as bad. I just don't have long term experience with them.
2:27 There is actually rubber in this one. Do you see those four little rectangular holes beneath the handle? That is where two rubber o-rings would be in place. The rubber o-rings are necessary to prevent water from leaking through the stem.
Absolutely there's rubber. Same even for the Dahl ball valves. But the ball valve O-rings are not in the flow of the domestic water. The multi-turn is right in the water flow for every gallon. There are now cheap/chinzy ball valves on the market also....
Helped my father with a few water claims inspections. In every case where a valve or fitting had failed, it had some kind of plastic replacing what used to be made of copper or brass. In every case, it was the plastic part that had failed and caused the insureds to suffer multiple thousand dollar losses for which they had to turn to their insurance for.
18 years ago, I replaced all the valves in my house with ball valves, with the exception of the actual shut-off valve. I even put ball valves on 3 exterior faucets. The hot water exterior faucet is starting to slow drip, but other than that, all is good. For those who will want to know why I did not replace the shut-off valve, well, it's copper, and about 1/2 inch above the concrete slab. Yeah, listen up kids, never buy a SLAB HOME! Had I known then, what I know, you couldn't give me a slab home. I mean it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They suck pig balls, after the pig shit has come to rest on them.
Eh, slabs are ok as long as you got good footings and soil but theyll still crack.. now what homes are complete crap and deeigned to steal money from the unknowing are vinyl sided houses.. 95% of them are under insulated and even if they were well insulated i could throw a piece of half inch conduit completely through one from the outside of the house
I don't know much about plumbing fittings but I am a hobby machinist. I would guess the valve from 50 years ago didn't have a rubber gasket at all. You don't need a gasket to seal, if you have two machined surfaces, which are lapped to match, you can have brass-on-brass and seal just fine. My guess is, because they have plastic in the modern valve, they can't have this kind of machined surface interface, so they just use a gasket.
the new lead-free brass valves make a reliable seal a lot less feasible! I've got a hose bib that feels like it doesn't have a gasket inside of it. seals leak free and travels easily every time. house was built in the 40s and the valve looks and feels like it could easily have been from that era
If you ever have to replace the 1:4 turn ball valve, you have to cut and solder (typically). With the old school compression, you just replace the washers. So while they may last longer, replacing one is much more work.
You really need to check this stuff out at the store even with 1/4. Chances are if you can't turn it the store it will lock up soon afterward. The blade handle main ball valves still turn like a dream 30 years later. Call me crazy but I want install 1/2 version of those.
Ball valves do seize up unless you take the time to turn them off and on periodically. Who's going to remember to do that even if they are accessible. Are you going to pull your refrigerator away from the wall or remember that you have one under the sink for the dish washer?
People should also know that there are full port ball valves and standard port ball valves. Full port ball valve have the same ID as the water lines and allow more flow through the system.
I agree the quarter-turn ball valves are the way to go, but it's also important which brand you choose. I've seen some quarter-turns stop working within 5 years. Brasscraft's quarter-turn is a joke. I have the hook-up on the stops I get; I get good quarter turns for $3 ea, no tax.
We did all ball valves 11 years ago and would do it again. Mine still work, with some gentle persuasion. They will freeze up if not operated like others have stated. Probably a lot depends on your location/ water. Guess everything has trade offs.
What we use a lot here in Belgium are quarter-turn valves with permanently greased spindle. With this type of valves you can open it like new even after 25+ years. They are produced by a German manufacturer Schell but it it looks that they are unfortunately not available in the US, but maybe you have a manufacturer there that uses a similair technical principle.
@@acadeca8006 what a lot of Americans don’t seem to realize is that such government regulation is actually a good thing for the individual. It’s just the big corporations and people who make money screwing over individuals who don’t like them.
"I'm worried that plastic might shear off someday and also worried about how rubber is going to fair over time." Nailed it. In my parents house every service value uses those. They are about 25 years old. Virtually all of them have failed and leak around the packing. Two have been fused shut as cutting them out would be more trouble. The saving grace is if you do not touch them they won't start leaking that much. But they'll start leaking if you use them so they defeat their purpose. I did a retrofit for a filter system for the refrigerator and sink. The service valve started leaking. I just put a bucket under it as I was putting another service value ahead of it in the new piping. I had already fitted the wall faucet with its own value. The idea was I wanted to get it to shutoff completely so it'd be dry enough to glue it shut later and just wanted to do the install. I applied a moderate amount of pressure to try to cram the packing in and the leak stopped and then... lets just say I installed a shower not a filter that day. The entire plastic piece shot out. The two main service values were cut out many years ago for a water softener replaced with fairly high quality globe valves. Two of the in ceiling values have been glued shut and another was one was the one mentioned above. Now cut out and replaced with a sharkbite. Somewhat needlessly since there's two more service values ahead of it. But it just worked out that way. 2 out of the four sinks leaked and had to be replaced and fitted sharkbite values in at that time. So there are now 2 sinks and 1 toilet using these values still in my parents house. They make me cringe.
Hey Matt, cheap is as cheap does-Forest Gump! If you only look at up front cost of items, you will get poked every time. Chinsy is not a good idea on what is the largest personal investment in a person’s life, at least a working person! Ball valves I have seen used in industry work in the most brutal conditions imaginable. For a given pressure, they are your best bet. You can take my word or not. That is your choice, but years in industrial maintenance has left me with knowledge that makes sense. Ball valves work and ball valves rule and rock!
Look for the brasscraft 1/4 turn valves. Some of the others are super cheap and have plastic parts as well. The smaller ones with no name on it (might be nibco, not sure) at Menards often drip when shut off.
Ball valves are definately faster and easier when it comes time to turn off the water supply. Although I don't have ball valves supplying my fixtures I do have many in other places (outside water shutoffs, main valve to the house, hot water heater and many more outside he home. From my experience the ball valves don't fair much better than the other regular valves. They both freeze up when not used for long periods of time (I have a permanent vice-grip by my water heater) and I find they leak just as much as the other valves.
I have replaced hundreds of these plastic stem valves for ball valves in a multistory apartment building. Most were as old as the building ( 40 years). They function if handled carefully, gently close if you feel it hang up reverse direction and then start closing it again, pliers are ok but revers direction rather than forcing it. Not all ball valves are the same. If you look at the stem these can corrode and fail relatively half fail quickly 3 to 5 years in water that is mineral laden (hard water). Be absolutely sure you remove and replace the old compression nut ( you bet its a pain but do it anyway) or you will get dissimilar metal corrosion. Check the ball, the chrome ball can be a problem, look for the newer gray pex. The white plastic shafts of the multi Turn have never failed, its that rubber washer seal that leaks but rarely enough to force you to turn off the water to the building. Before I started I always had assumed plumbers used the plastic multiturn valves as repeat insurance. I now understand plastic is a very durable product and preferable to most metals. Brass is another very durable product. You have to search for it and its being phased out for lead free brass. I have no idea of its durability.
I hate those plastic valve stems. Yes, they do shear off, especially when the valve has been in service for a few years and the water has lots of minerals, it gets a bit jammed up and requires more force ...
I think the plastic stem is the biggest issue, not multi-turn vs 1/4 turn. Of course, water quality plays a big role in ceasing any valve regardless of design. I am moving to 1/4 turn with a water softener.
I just had to rebuild a brasscraft screw type built with my house in 2005, same deal rubber was gone wouldn't shut off. Stem was metal, rebuild parts were plastic.
I have found even ball valves suffer from the cost cutters. I think there are three levels of them. Cheap junk - Mid price and high end. Seems the mid price does well enough. My point? Do not buy cheap ball valves ether.
I just had a ball valve fail on me. It lasted a little more than 1 year. I was using it as the lawn sprinkler shut off valve. The valve body split. Unfortunately, I do think you can buy anything but cheap junk nowadays.
+Mark Flierl I bought a "cheap" 304 stainless ball valve to use for my tenant's new hose bib. she wanted a hose so that she could water the dirt and grow grass and water her flowers. she used it for three years. still works great. I think it was 7 or 8 dollars. it was literally the cheapest new NPT threaded stainless ball valve I could find on ebay.
I wish I could have green with you on the ball valve and its longevity, unfortunately I've been finding after replacing many many angle stops that the ball valves drawback is it seems to freeze up earlier than a corkscrew Style. I don't know why that is it most likely is due to the mineral deposits in the water and what not. I used to be a big ball valve angle stop cheerleader but have been finding that if the customer is not at least turning them on and off once to twice a year to keep them lubricated or free of buildup that they eventually just freeze up solid.
not disclosed agreed unfortunately my customers never remember to do something like that, can't blame them oh, I do notice the plastic cork screw type seem to resist the mineral build up on the plastic a little bit better than the metal ball on the quarter turns.
Actually in oil and gas industry this issue has been noticed and solved by using special ball valves. The issue of a normal ball valve is when they are in closed position. the water in the ball hole is trapped and when it's frozen expends to break the sealing.
I won't use anything but a ball valve. With all the issues I've had over the years, and it was always the seat wearing out (either the rubber corroding or deposits on the rubber/silicone preventing a good seat). With the ball valve you don't get that, and you didn't mention the fact that very little to NO water is in contact with the silicone insert (where the ball seats), so it may be decades before it ever goes bad. I use them everywhere, sinks, washer, water heater, even some of the hoses outside, and [at house] main shut-off. I do all the work myself, because I did know what my plumber was doing, ripping me off.
Hi Matt, over here in Australia it's known and accepted that a mini stop washers are a serviceable item, along with every other tap washer in a house (if that was the style used), we only really use ball valves for external high flow agricultural/gardening purposes. For mini stops, the trend over here is to use the 1/4 turn ceramic washer type, which I believe would have a longer lifespan that any of the products you've shown. Are ceramic stops available over there? They're quite common here, they're a little more pricey, but for what plumbers charge in Australia, it's better to avoid a callout to fix a leaking stop! Cheers.
I think he was referring to the quality ones back in the day..... I have the majority of my shut off valves and our house is from 1954.... Nothing now days are built to last.
Tell you what...message to the builder. I'll pay the $50 difference and you install the better quality one. Then my house won't flood later when the cheap one shears off. Also offer me these upgrade options on fixtures too! Same thing with electrical panels, switches, dimmers and outlets,wiring, etc. Give me the option at your cost to upgrade to the better quality unit (don't mark it up, because there is no additional labor or trouble on your part to install better quality) and I will be glad to pay the difference every time so that I can get the better quality part and you can maintain your same reasonable profit margin. Please don't make me feel like I have to go to cost-plus on a job because if you supply all of the products you're going to supply bargain basement stuff. Bid the job using the products you would put in your own home...or that of your family. I will pay for that level of quality. Just don't allow me to go to the home center and find that you are charging me $20 for a valve I can buy for $9 and then your putting in the $3 plastic stem model.
Happen a lot most of the guys outside do that shit every time they don’t care bc all this valves gonna eventually damage and need to replace but bc the lifespan is large 10 yrs they don’t care and if they fail they gonna say the product cane damage from factory do workers they’ll since the beginning which products gonna work in any specific project and also if they are familiar with the work most of them they dont even learn any good practice at all or follow updated bc
Yes Less profit to people like you that's why i'm building my own house, I work on cars for a living and i always fix everything like It's mine. there is no shortage of work educate yourself.
These shut-off valves are open most of its life, such that those seals are hardly under stress. However, the rubber seal in a multi-turn valve, becomes brittle and crumble over time and that's when it becomes problematic. The valve itself is repairable, but the faucet downstream gets clogged with the rubber crumbs. I guess they still manufacture these type of valves because people buy them, its a dollar cheaper!
I just replaced 3 ball valve that were less than 10 years old, in part due to the new enemy...chloramines. More and more municipalities are using chloramines in city water because they kill bugs better than chlorine alone. The downside is chloramine attacks copper, and in my case ate the ball valve stem over time. So when I tried to turn the valve the handle breaks off. I'm hoping the valve manufactures figure out a way to combat this growing problem.
'doesn't look good, man. probably 316L stainless valves are your best bet. water pipes: www.waterrf.org/ExecutiveSummaryLibrary/90624_508_profile.pdf (general valve materials + chemicals) www.syntecpe.com/pdf/ChemicalResistanceGuide_3-25-10.pdf stainless steel: www.carollo.com/sites/default/files/pubArticles/Opf1113feature4.pdf watch out for the quality of the NPT threads as well as the thickness of the fittings, though. There's a lot of amazingly bad chinesium stuff out there, and it won't be able to stretch like the softer metals to fill the gaps in poorly machined threads.
The multi turn valves always start leaking before the 1/4 turn. Have had multiple cases where the stem starts spraying water and have to end up turning off the main water to replace the valve.
Yea but you can service the other valve, the ball valves have the thing that attaches the ball to the handle non removable by design, and the ball is non removable as well. The multiturn valves you can unscrew the entire valve and replace the seals if you wanted to but truthfully the valve itself is going to get to the point of wanting to just replace the whole thing by the time anybody would need to replace the seals.. but worthy of mentioning it in case somebody would need to replace just the seals if maybe were in a hard time or unable to get a new fitting but happened to have the right sized o ring..
Ball valve is the way to go I've seen new plastics one break in few years.. this is like comparing a gate valve to ball valve less effort means less problems
looking for 1/4 turn angle stop 1/2 fip to 3/8 comp.the garbage from home depot is a notched ball into which the stem fits. who make one [piece ball and stem??
As a plumber...25 years ago ball valves shut offs were not available. Water quality has to do w/ everything. The older compression style valves are repairable... Ball valves style are not. Ball valves can and do fail. Also the shut off valves are not designed to be turned on and off on a regular basis... only as an isolation to make a repair/ replacement..
All three of the valves he showed can be rebuilt. The ball valve will be the biggest pain as it comes apart at the output stem; the others disassemble from the handle.
Matt can you answer a question for me. I have a water shut off valve and I think the rubber inside the spigot shaft has failed and water is coming out of the stem, when I turn the valve it seems like more water comes out, I am worried about turning it more to close it, is it possible the valve would fail and I would have an uncontrolled leak coming out of the stem? I know its a silly thing but I need to stop a leak coming out of it, it's kind of serious, when I turn it it seems to allow more water to come out of the stem, can I just turn it a bit more and the water will slow down? I know its silly but Im worried something would fail and I would not be able to stop it, logically I think that it wont fail and the waters just going past the lil o ring in there that failed and when I keep turning it it will crush it and close the valve, I bought a new one and looking at it I dont think the valve will fail but I need some advice, can someone answer it for me, save me hundreds of dollars
The builder in my newly built home used ball valves with a push on fitting. I was surprised as the push on fittings cost more. I guess they can make up for it in labor costs and not having to risk leaks in compression fittings?
apex - that hilarious! The reason to go with ball valves is to get away from the rubber in the conventional stops. So to use 1/4 turn stop in the push on style connection (uses an o-ring) is useless. 😂
Not really. The o-ring is not compressed like it would be on a conventional stop. It's used to establish a connection from the pipe to the fitting. The ball valve is what disconnects the water and the o ring remains untouched/unmoved.
apex .....but still in contact with water. Relying on a rubber o-ring on the pipe to angle stop connection is even worse! If the water deteriorates the rubber in a standard stop, then it's going to deteriorate an o-ring in a push on connection.
Plumbing connections fail all the time, its just a matter of 10-20 yrs. Don't forget there are o-rings everywhere in plumbing. Do you use a braided flex hose from the valve to faucet (o-ring to the faucet connection)? Do you use a rigid pipe to the faucet connection (rubber gasket to the faucet)? All of these failing can become expensive if you are not home.
You can get those quartet turn valves for under $6 from supply house. Stay away from the brasscraft valves. Their multi turn valve comes with a plastic stem and their quarter turn valve is garbage. You can find sellers on Ebay who sell the quarter turn ball valve style who have 10 for $33. It's a great price and it's quality
If used on a regular basis, eg maybe as a hose tap, ball valves aren't really so good. What would be good would be ceramic discs, but as an isolation valve would be expensive
ball valves usually are from 3 to 5 bucks of that size, I'm speaking about Europe. Ball valve needs turning time after time, otherwise it sizes up from rust and you will never make it work.
I wouldn't do it. First since I'm a fan of ball valves I would never install a compression style valve. Secondly the failure of the washer isn't the only part of the valve that can fail so you might not end up fixing it or you may fix it and have another failure. Lastly the failure of a shut off valve to work when you need it to work can cause a lot of damage. Saving money on shut off valves either by repairing old ones or using cheaper non-name brand ones is a risk that is probably not worth it.
The ball valve wont last as long, and cannot be rebuilt, which means when it does fail your cutting pipes. Even when the rubber goes bad in the older style you can just clean remove the guts and screw in new guts in it within minutes. never having to cut an old copper line. Sometimes theory and reality run counter intuitive.
just pollin: how much do plumbers charge to replace a shut-off valve like this in your area? In southern California I've heard as cheap as $80 and as high as $250 for one.
If the ball valve is not a USA made APOLLO, then it is a crap shoot for quality there too. When you come to the ball valve after 25 years, they often are calcium welded open. Brass craft and BOB seem to be US made and good quality.
I much prefer the multiturn stops, I'v come across many of the 1/4 stops that have snapped and don't turn the ball at all. At that point you have to replace the whole thing. With the multiturn you can easily replace the guts.
Ball valves are the way. The others work great when you first put them in, and don't need them. A few years later, when you actually need them, they seem to always fail.
Regularly (probably once a month), turn every valve off then on, to keep any from getting stuck. Turn off your house water supply before every vacation.
100% lol. try closing a water service valve after 20 years of operation... the city guy thought he was going to shear the valve stem w/ his 24" wide 'T' shaped valve wrench. after that it was like 75% easier to operate the valve.
