Simplifying Water Chemistry In Homebrewing Beer 

Right on and thanks for the comment. - John

Theres a lot of BS out there. Maybe we should start doing a couple videos around the BS. So many things we hold dear and view as sacrosanct. Oh well! Cheers! -Mike

Thanks for the support! -Mike

I keep trying to say this as politely as possible; water chemistry in brewing has been largely over emphasized and poorly explained. Just worry about mash pH first. Then worry about experimenting with salt combinations in the kettle later brew to brew to get what you like taste-wise. There is no formula for magic water+style of beer=your palate preference. It's like thinking there is a magic number of tomatoes and shakes of salt to make pasta sauce one way only because that's what they did in Italy 200 years ago. Glad it's starting to click for you. Cheers! -Mike

Glad you enjoyed the banter! Cheers! -Mike

Brew Dudes I’m trying to comprehend all of this and let it sink in. So just focus on the mash ph and not the sparg water because after mashing is done the ph doesn’t matter i the kettle? You set the ph in the water prior to adding grain or after adding grain n the mashtun?

I use Bru-n-water also to help guide my choices for hitting the mash pH. For most of the beers I brew I am starting to build a "feel" for how much acid I'll need in advance. bru-n-water shows me when I'm off track. I do however ignore the settings for things like yellow-malty or brown-bitter. I've always hated the attempt to correlate color to mash pH. There is some general truth to it, but when you're using a calculator its sort of pointless to think of it in reference to SRM. Cheers! -Mike

@@BrewDudes I've been doing something similar I think. I've only a handful of brews under my belt with regard to water chemistry tweaking and I've never paid a ton of attention to the coloring part in that spreadsheet. I'm trying to get a feel for how I like the taste (aka more chloride or sulfate in that ratio) depending on the style. I'm finding for me, a 3:1 on Sulfate to Chloride is a great place to be to bring out those hops, and maybe near the reverse for my malty beers and stouts. I'm still tinkering with the malty beers. So far I'm at 2:1 Chloride to Sulfate and it's pretty good. Cheers!

Cheers!

Yeah, me too. - John

Thanks Tony. Agree with what Samuel said. - John

Cheers! - John

That is certainly one of the best reasons to own one of those systems; consistency. Cheers! -Mike

Experimentation and the willingness to rebrew something with different parameters is by far more empowering than just plugging and chugging one time with a calculator/spreadsheet. Glad its working out for you! Cheers. -Mike

Sounds good to me. Have a plan and a process. Stick to it and good things will happen. Cheers! -Mike

You're too kind. Cheers! -Mike

My focus in process was the real kicker to get the result I wanted. The water chemistry talk sort of evolved as an outshoot. Both things are good topics for discussion in their own right. -Mike

Right on! I appreciate the experimentation with re-brewing stuff you're familiar with already as a method of refinement and learning! Cheers! -Mike

It's all how you look at the stickers, I guess. They look right side up when the laptop is closed - Ha. - John

Thanks!

Sweet! Cheers! -Mike

Ha - John

He knew it was coming 19:07

Much appreciated. Cheers! -Mike

Good place to start. Tune your all grain process first then you can focus on things like water chemistry. - John

Ain't no friend like a scientist friend! - John

Thanks - we appreciate your time and the comment. - John

Great - We're glad you found our recommendation to be a good one! - John

Keep it simple and everything will be alright! Cheers! -Mike

Heretics! -Mike

Cheers!

All the thanks go to Mike! I just sat there and drank beer. - John

I agree and this is a wonderful comment. pH is pH really. Getting it right is the priority and using acid to get there is really al that is necessary. However, the homebrewing community is hard to let go of some very long established tomes of text that have created a concrete concept of how to go about getting mash pH in the right place. I was trying to point out there is a simpler way of doing it. Certainly your approach is right in line with trying to simplify the process. Thanks for the perspective you have offered. Cheers! -Mike

Thanks!

I think the sous vide is milder than my direct fired mash tun on the base. but its something to experiment with for sure. Cheers! -Mike

Cheers! Thanks for the support. -Mike

I can be as complex as it needs to be. But when it gets overwhelming the only thing that matters is hitting that mash pH. I think if most people just learned how to do that they could worry much less about water. Cheers! -Mike

Yes. Google top mashing. I have played with jsut the base malt. Then during the last 20minutes of the mash you add the dark malts on top and start circulating the malt. I've done a few stouts this way and you go from a yellow wort to dark wort. -Mike

@@BrewDudes I've actually seen it done, and I've done it making a stout, but only with my dark grains. Heard it was more for not introducing astringency. Can't believe I never thought to do it with even the light crystals.

Yeah, I guess if the grain doesn't need to be mashed, then it can be just steeped. - John

@@BrewDudes So using this method you would just calculate your mash pH (and necessary additions) based on the base malts only?

This is a method Mike McDole talked about around 10 years ago. I’ve been following it for the last decade.

Any idea how much acidulated malt is commonly desired? I just bought a small amount for a kettle sour, but am just in the beginning of figuring out ph and the other aspects, since it's only my second or third all grain beer.

Well the way I see it... you're going to need some salt in there anyway. My water is low in calcium as required by the yeast for good ferment. So I think using some calcium salt for part of the adjustment makes sense. That way I am not getting too crazy with the acid addition to make the mash pH happen. Then in the kettle I'll balance out any sulfate to chloride ratio I am striving for. But the important thing always is not to just blindly follow some authors idea or even two weird dudes on YT. The point I am trying to make is to learn for oneself, adapt and apply based on what works for you. Cheers! -Mike

I have seen a chart somewhere referencing that a certain amount of acid malt will drop the pH by some fraction of a point. I just couldn't find it at the moment. I'll post it if I ever find it again. But its still important to realize that every grain bill and different source water will be different and in turn the amount of acid malt will be different per beer and per brewer's local water. There is no magic one size answer. Cheers! -Mike

And that's sometimes all that needed! Cheers! -Mike

Right on!

Excellent!

You're welcome! - John

I never adjust the pH. Reason being is that once you sample the wort and take a pH measurement 80+% of the mash/enzyme activity is done. Once you calculate what you need to add to correct the mash pH 90+% of the mash is done. Despite the fact that we all mash for 60minutes most mash chemistry (even with poor water chemistry) is done in the first 20 minutes. I use calculators to tell me how to hit the correct pH based upon the grain bill and the water being used. I add the right amount of salts to my strike water to get the right mash pH. I ignore pre-mash any sense of water profile mythology about locations and beer styles. Once I've mashed and collect my wort I'll then add what I need to create a water profile that I want whether its a hop forward profile or a malt forward profile. Again, I still almost entirely ignore what some ancient text said about the water profile of a city that a given style is best known for. Hope that helps. Cheers. -Mike

I wish we had a recommendation for a pH meter. We have one that was sent to us. - John

Amen!

It keeps us out of trouble. - John

We will keep at it. More water talk to come. Especially if people want it. Cheers! -Mike

Some of my favorite books right now is the Brewing Better Beer by Gordon Strong. I also really like the New Lager Brewing by Greg Noonan (its a bit dated but its very good). I think Water is an OK book but its pretty in depth and quite frankly again overly complicated. Its a better advanced read when you're feeling real good about your water practice already. -Mike

Brew Dudes Mike Thanks for the info & reply! I have the water book, it’s a tough read lol. It can be WAY to much at times. More water more better haha Cheers

True that - John

That's the gist of it. Pretty much adjusting the water chemistry to adjust flavor in the packaged beer. - John

We have started to add Campden tablets to our water to remove the chlorine smell and flavor from our water. Try that - it involves less planning/effort. - John

Mike has been using RO or distilled water in his quest of better water chemistry. Is there an easy way to calculate the minerals the Campden tablet imparts or do you have to calculate it yourself? - John

@@BrewDudes Did some digging. No input in Beersmith2. Martin's Bru'n water notes mention adding "3 ppm potassium or 2 ppm sodium (depending on the chemical used) and 8 ppm sulfate and 3 ppm chloride." So probably small amounts not to be concerned about in homebrew scale.

If Mike's talking about the pH of the mash, then it's mash temperatures.

What would you like to know specifically? We may have a video for that. - John

Thanks Greg - John

It's complex.

Thanks!

I would do the Ward Labs test. For $40 you can’t go wrong! Regarding which salts to add, plug your numbers into Bru n Water or beersmith or EZ Water Calculator and pick a profile to match. It will tel you what salts to add.

Yes - we got a Ward Labs test too and we were happy with the results. Go for it. - John

Not necessarily but sometimes. I depends on what I am doing and the end goal. If I know I am adding salts in the kettle then I don't mess around adding salts in the liquor tank. But if my recipe won't call for that kind of addition I adjust all the water at once in the HLT and call it good. Cheers! -Mike

@@BrewDudes thanks man!

It is confusing but we can do follow ups for sure on the additions. -Mike

This is really interesting, I've read people discouraging the use of distilled water, but i don't know enough about water chemistry to get why or remember why.

@@copsarebastards *Distilled +salts. Distilled = RO as far as I'm concerned. The reason to start with distilled or RO is that you are starting with a blank palate. You would NEVER brew with distilled/RO without mineral additions.

Personally, I think you should ignore those style guidelines for water. Yes, use some salts and a combination of acid to get the right mash pH. Then worry about the flavor profile. It seems to me that if I focus on 150ppm of calcium total as the base I then construct the chloride or sulfate ratios around that. If I think the beer still could use an assist from water chemistry then I'll up or down the ratio for next time. Cheers! -Mike

@@BrewDudes thank you, i normally keep my chloride or sulfate towards the bottom end, I'll look more at the calcium and hit 150ppm on my next brew and look at the ratios.

Cheers!

@@BrewDudes Is that 150ppm total of both Calcium Sulphate and Calcium Chloride combined or just one or the other; if so which one? I find it a bit confusing talking about Calcium when Chloride and Sulphate are both Calcium salts or maybe I am just getting lost in my own confusion :)

Mash real hot and get the starch out then convert with amylase I suppose could work. Interesting idea. Cheers! -Mike