Six Proofs of a Pre Wrath Rapture - 4K DVD Version 

I have been a pre tribulationist for 50 years. Last week, I finally had to admit that pre wrath lines up perfectly with scripture. Now scripture makes more sense to me. Ad so now I am listening to pre wrath teachings like this one. I had never been interested nor ever listened to any other teachings other than pre trib until today.

I am recently saved and have absolutely been consuming all content I can regarding the Bible and i've been reading it vigorously as well. However, I've been really struggling with the post, mid and pre-tribulation rupture. Because each one of them I found scripture that did sit well with me in regards to complicating them. However, this is the first I've heard of a pre wrath rupture and I've listened to this sermon 3 times already today. Aswell, gone through my Bible and it seems to fit the best in my mind. I will continue to study and pray on the matter but I'm very happy Ifound this sermon.

Have been following for 15 years. This is without a doubt the clearest, most comprehensive presentation of the whole phenomenon I have heard. Thank you for myself and any and all who hear.

When I was 7 years old my church did a huge month long teaching on the tribulation and played a film teaching the pretrib rapture. I remember as the pastor red through Revalation , and he would explain what the verses mean. I kept thinking “ But that’s not what the scripture says.” I thank you for this teaching because it’s so needed.

Thank you! It's so encouraging to see such an exegetical reading of revelation. My studies of the Olivet discourse and the letters to the Thessalonians and my reading of some parts of Revelation, guided by the Holy Spirit, of course, brought me to a pre-wrath rapture understanding, but your exposition has provided nuggets of context that fill in the pieces that were hazy for me. Bless you. I'm very encouraged, and I'm happily amazed by the magnificent unity of the truth of Scripture! Praise God! Maranatha!

I used to be a pre-trib rapture believer almost most of my Christian life but i been reading, re- reading, comparing, studying, watching, listening and praying and this position makes the most scenes according to scripture. Grateful to come across this video.

When the church finds itself in the middle of the tribulation, it will cause a great falling away as Christians will say I did not sign up for this!

I knew your father in the early 80’s. Maeve come to a Revelation conference to a little baptist church on Albany Ga. I was an 18 year old new Christian and newly married. Maeve was certainly ahead of his time. But mostly I remember his sweet disposition! Truly a godly man!

Best presentation ever on this! I read your dad's book many years ago and he convinced me of the pre-wrath rapture. Thank you for continuing his work.

When I was born again back in 1981, I was introduced to the pre-tribulation rapture as if it was absolute truth. Not knowing the Bible, I believed what I was taught. As I grew in the Word, I learned there were other views - but believed that the most popular view must be the right one - I also didn't think it was very important and certainly not critical to one's salvation. Then in 2013 I desided to study this topic for myself and commited to only examining the scriptures (vs commentaies, books, articles or videos) and prayed to the Father to lead me to the truth via the Holy Spirit. After several weeks of studying the prophetic scriptures I came to the reality that the scriptures teach a PRE-WRATH rapture. It was only after coming to this truth that I then began to discover pastors and Bible teachers who also hold to the Pre-Wrath rapture - many who also previously held to the Pre-trib rapture.

This is what I had studied and understood..I have been trying to teach it online on TikTok amidst fight and anger..thank you for revealing this though the Holy spirit

during the covid pandemic, after going through scriptures. I do believe in a post trib pre wrath rapture. Hallelujah lets rejoice and encourage one another brothers and sisters

This is excellent presentation without any unnecessary distractions.. Will have to watch this over again and again as time permits.. Thank you, and may the Lord God Jesus continue to bless Zion's Hope Ministry financially, it takes a lot of time and effort to be a content creator on RU-vid.

Amazing, clear and concise teaching. Praise the Lord for you!

I knew your dad quite well many years ago. I heard he died in Jan 2022 - my deepest sympathies for you and your family.

Outstanding teaching and revelation to be prepared for what is yet to come.

Strange as it may be, we as Christians focus so much on the period of tribulation and the birth pangs. What we should mostly be focusing on is what the birth brings forth. The coming of our blessed hope Jesus Christ and the entry into the eternal age. Glory be to God, how our hearts burn for this.

Thank you for another very clear and insightful teaching on this essential topic - really most appreciated, and only one mention of the word 'global' this time. Much preferred when you say 'world-wide'... (words are important) 🙂 Blessings aye.

I have done much study and conclude this Presentation is based on Scripture taken in proper context. Also one of the best presentations that would be understood by most Church goers.Pretribulation believers cannot offer definite Bible verses to support then timing of the Rapture. Jesus in Matthew 24 explicitly states what happens before the Rapture.Paul explicitly states in 2 Thess Ch 2 that the Apostasy and revealing of the antichrist are to take place. Well done David !

How do so many teachers forget about the MILLENIAL reign of Christ Jesus that is on the planet after the great tribulation. It's not the end of time, it's the end of the age of grace where judgment and justice with wrath on the wicked takes place. Many people will parish but they will live again in Christ. Why are we even spending so much time as believers trying to know more than what God revealed to us. We should be focusing on living like Jesus, which honestly none of us is doing very well. Just looking at the facts and the current state of the church, our country and the world. Christians are being distracted by things that don't matter. Jesus wants us to be the light and salt, spread the gospel. We're deceived, there are so many interpretations, that is how you know the obsession with the rapture is coming but not yet. We could be storing up treasure in heaven but we choose to debate and fight other believers in the body of Christ because we want our options and interpretations to be right. Preach the gospel, do the work, and don't let debates take your crown of glory in being distracted by timing. God is perfect and his timing is perfect. We know time is short, look around it's obvious. Family, we're wasting time. I beg of you, focus on the great comission. Pray for discernment and not to be deceived. Love you all, to God the Father and Christ Jesus be the glory and praise!

This is by far the best presentation of the pre wrath rapture I've seen!

I have been in the Pre-Wrath camp for many years, and I owe a lot of my Biblical knowledge to David's father, Marvin Rosenthal. He published a now famous book entitled The PRE-WRATH RAPTURE of the CHURCH in 1990. It is excellent, thorough, and well worth reading; again and again! Arm yourself with Truth! This is a life-changer. Amen.

I genuinely don't understand how anyone who has researched this subject can still defend pre-trib. I just don't get it. Is it clinging to ideology over the word of God, or is it ignorance? Either way, there's no excuse for the pastors. They shouldn't be putting man's ideology over God's word, and they definitely shouldn't be ignorant concerning the word of God.

Great presentation, very clear and concise. My understanding in regard to the last trump is that it is the trump of God not an angel blowing the trumpet and it is tied to the Jewish feasts.

You honor the legacy of your dad. Very solid work.

Over the last 50 yrs I’ve heard many people “ prove “ from scripture several different views about the end times. When I was a teenager , seeing I was interested in the subject, my pastor gave me some advice . He said “you’ve got to remember, it’s only “their opinion “.

Again, without intention to be controversial, I realized that if one does not regard the church and Israel as two different entities, they would easily deny this rapture position.

Awesome teaching, I got Marvin's book years ago. It's the only position that makes sense to me. thank you for carrying on these Bible truths.

I read your dad's book in the 90s and was so excited to find a consistent position. I have affirmed and taught it ever since.

my problem with this is that the rapture is contingent upon the resurrection of those in Christ happening first, then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them. This happens at the end of the Tribulation, Revelation 19-20 (20.4-6 specifically) as Christ said, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days." While I've heard many explanations, they're just interpretive gymnastic to explain away or avoid the plain text of Scripture. The Tribulation is not *THE* Wrath we are not appointed to. The Wrath we're not appointed to is the judgement of eternal damnation.

Excellent. Spot on!

Why is the day of the lord NOT a day, but 3.5 years? Is Jesus coming back early? and then leaving and coming back again? I don't see any proof or even an argument here.

By God’s grace, I’ve read through the Bible every year since 1998. I wish I could say that because I was a good Christian is why I did it, but it wasn’t it was because I wanted to understand Revelation. This position is the only one that needs no extra explanation, or no things to be focused on or ignored in order to make the position work. It also can be interpreted as pre, mid or post trib with just some minor, variations on definitions or circumstances, so it actually helps explain the other views existence. No one understood Jesus first coming completely before it happened, so I’m sure there’s things we don’t understand now, but this sure seems to fit.

THE proof of the pre-trib rapture: Who does John see upon arriving at the throne room of the universe? "And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold." (Rev. 4:4 KJV) And who are these elders? There's no need to speculate....they proclaim their identity in 5:9-10. "And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth." Now who will be in heaven singing of having been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb? There's a clue in their song....note the pronouns "us" and "we." ('Jeopardy" theme plays) THE CHURCH!! John is looking at the glorified church who are wearing the white robes and crowns they were given at the Bema Seat Judgment AFTER the rapture. And since, at this point, our Lord is just now rising to take the title deed to the earth and begin to break the seals, the 7 years of Jacob's Trouble has yet to begin. Since none other than the Apostle John taught (as shown to him by the Holy Spirit) of a pre-trib rapture, I'm going to take his word for it.

The churches who are focusing on being raptured are not preparing the people to endure persecution. I am not talking about the tribulation. If you are expecting to be raptured and not expecting persecution you will fall away. There will be a falling away before any rapture will happen (2 Thess. 2:3). They fall away because they are deceived preparing themselves only for rapture instead of preparing themselves to endure to the end. Don't be blindsided by unexpected persecution and fall away. (Matthew 13)."...But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended..." I remember hearing people say that when the so called rapture happens that there will be crashing cars and airplanes because some of the drivers and pilots will suddenly be taken away and the cars and planes will crash because there will be no one left to control them. This scenario will not happen and cannot happen because when the church of Philadelphia is translated the people will be assembled in a 24 hour sunset to sunset Trumpets convocation. Just like the 120 were in Acts chapter 2 for the Feast of Weeks. They will not be out and about driving cars and flying airplanes. “Blessed are those servants, whom the Lord when He comes shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.” Some people say that they are watching all the time but they overlook verse 38. “And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.” (Luke 12:37-38). Under normal circumstances people are sound asleep during the second and third watch. Therefore Luke 12 is not talking about watching in a figurative way. The LORD is talking of a literal watch. There are appointed times in the scriptures for us to fulfill a literal watch. In fact, all of the appointed times of holy convocations (moedim) listed in Leviticus 23 are watches and vigils of Yahweh. Each one of them are fulfilled by both an Old Testament and corresponding New Testament historical event. In other words they will be assembled together in a holy convocation and not out and about driving cars and flying airplanes. Like the 120 were assembled in the upper room Acts chapter 2 for the Feast of Weeks (Pentecost). Unfortunately, because of a man-made ecclesiastical calendar many will not be watching at the appointed time.

You don't need a prewrath rapture. God can protect his own by promises like those in Psalm 91.

Outstanding teaching... Very clear and concise outline and arrangement of the Scriptures.

There are 2 catching ups pre for the church post for the jews when Christ returns after the trib. If you die now you will have your own private pre trib rapture.

A good presentation on this subject. I listened to another video on this and I'm inspired to reread the bible so that I can present it the same, or at least understand the passages better.

This is exactly what I believe and teach. And some Pre-Trib believers attack me!

David - this was excellent - thank you!

Daniel 9 speaks about the 70 week prophecy. It was 70 total continuous weeks for Daniel and his people to make reconciliation for their iniquity. The 70 weeks run from 457 BC (the decree to rebuild Jerusalem) to 34 AD (Stephan's stoning). The 70th week was Jesus' ministry from 27 AD to 34 AD. There is NO gap or pause in the timeline or future week left.

I believe the day of the LORD ( LAST DAY) begins during the tribulation ( 3-1/2 yrs long) for the elects sake those days are cut short. The resurrection will cut those days short for the body of Christ.

I don’t understand how the explanation of these verses are constantly overlooked “And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.” ‭‭Revelation‬ ‭11‬:‭3‬-‭4‬ ‭ It literally tells us who the two witnesses are: the 2 olive trees and the 2 candlesticks - challenge yourself to do a deep dive into these 2 things mentioned - you won’t come to the conclusion of Moses and Elijah

I am a pre-wrath teacher myself, but I would like to hear from other pre-wrath brethren, and explanation of Matthew 1324 through 30 And 37 through 43 Jesus bless!

The problem with this message is that there is no such thing as a 7 year tribulation in the book of Daniel. I challenge anyone to prove that from Daniel 9. If in doubt have another look at it and come back.

I appreciate David's presentation and attempt to help people understand Scripture. I think there are many contradictions, however, to the prewrath position. 1. Notice David claims (correctly) that the first half of Daniel's 70th week is called "labor pains" by Jesus in Matthew 24:8. Paul uses the identical term in the Greek (odin) for "labor pains" in 1 Thess. 5:3. Problem: Paul links the labor pains to the "day of the Lord." This means the beginning of labor pains is the beginning of the day of the Lord and therefore God's wrath! This is why the pretribulation proponents are correct in asserting that the church is raptured at the very beginning of Daniel's 70th week (prior to the day of the Lord). 2. Key to the prewrath position is the idea that Antichrist's reign of 3 1/2 years will be cut short to less than that. They claim Matthew 24:22 teaches this. Problem: The apostle John teaches that antichrist reigns for 3 1/2 years in Revelation 13:5. This means that the prewrath position directly contradicts John's teaching in Revelation 13:5. This is why pretribulation proponents teach that the great tribulation is "cut short" to 3 1/2 years just as Daniel and John taught (cf. Dan. 7:25; 12:7; Rev. 12:14; 13:5). There is then no contradiction between Matthew 24:22 and John 13:5 in the pretribulation view. 3. The prewrath position claims the day of the Lord (and its associated wrath) is not present until after the 6th seal. Problem: Paul teaches that the day of the Lord comes while the unbelieving world is claiming they have "peace and safety" (1 Thess. 5:3). Peace and safety is removed by the 2nd seal! John wrote, "And another, a red horse, went out; and to him who sat on it, it was granted to take peace from the earth, and that men would slay one another; and a great sword was given to him" (Rev. 6:4). This is why pretribulation proponents teach that the entire 70th week of Daniel is God's wrath. 4. As I mentioned above, the prewrath position claims the day of the Lord's wrath does not begin until after the 6th seal. Problem: The fourth seal records four instruments of God's wrath: sword, famine, pestilence, and wild beasts (Rev. 6:8). This passage is a direct allusion to Ezekiel 14:19-21 where God poured out sword, famine, pestilence, and wild beasts on Jerusalem as instruments of His wrath. Why was it God's wrath when it was poured out upon Jerusalem, but it's not God's wrath when poured out on the world? This is another reason why pretribulation proponents teach the that the wrath of God is present during the entire 70th week. 5. The prewrath position claims that Daniel's 70th week and its associated tribulations will be the worst time period in human history. This is true (Matt. 24:21). The prewrath position claims, however, that this worst time period will be cut short by the day of the Lord which is the worst time period! You can't have two "worst" time periods! This is another reason why pretribulation proponents teach that the entire 70th week of Daniel is the day of the Lord. 6 David Rosenthal claims (as do other prewrath proponents) that the day of the Lord and its wrath begins after the 6th seal. Problem: The unregenerate claim that the day of God's wrath has come in Revelation 6:17 (6th seal). The aorist verb (erchomai) "has come" is a constative aorist that explains a past event. The unregenerate even understand at this point that the world has been experiencing the wrath of God. This is direct contradiction to David Rosenthal who claims the day of the Lord begins "after" the 6th seal. 7. The prewrath position claims that the day of the Lord is preceded by cosmic disturbances. Problem: There are a series of 5 cosmic disturbances throughout Daniel's 70th week. You have a cosmic disturbance at the 6th seal (Rev. 6:12), 4th trumpet (Rev. 8:12), 5th trumpet (Rev. 9:2), 4th bowl (Rev. 16:8), and after Daniel's 70th week according to Jesus in Matthew 24:29. Prewrath claims Matthew 24:29 and the 6th seal are synonymous. The problem: Jesus teaches this cosmic disturbance occurs after the 70th week is over! 8. Prewrath claims Joel 2:31 and Malachi 4:5 provide signs prior to the day of the Lord. Interestingly, both texts have the same phrase "great and terrible day of Yahweh." When one reads from Joel 2:31 through Joel 3:1-21, one realizes this "great and terrible day of Yahweh" is the narrow 24-hour day in which Messiah intervenes against the enemies surrounding Jerusalem (Zech 14:1-7). This is why Jesus cites the same text (Joel 2:31) in Mattew 24:29 because it is "immediately after the tribulation of those days." This is a reference to the end of Daniel's 70th week, not some point inside of it. Therefore, there are signs prior to what is called the "narrow day" of the Lord, but not before the broad day of the Lord which begins at the inception of Daniel's 70th week and extends unto eternity (2 Pet. 3:10). This is why pretribulation proponents rightly claim that the broad day of the Lord (beginning of Daniel's 70th week) comes like a thief (1 Thess. 5:2), and that the "narrow day of the Lord" (final battle at end of 7 years) is preceded by signs such as the Elijah like witness (Rev. 11) and cosmic disturbances (Joel 2:31; Mal. 4:5). 9 Prewrath claims the day of the Lord is preceded by signs, yet Paul says it comes "suddenly" and like a "thief." (1 Thess. 5:2-3). The term for thief (kleptes) is one which emphasizes stealth. The robber (lestes) uses force to get what he wants, but the thief (kleptes) uses stealth. How can the day of the Lord come without warning if there are signs that must occur first? How can the day of the Lord come suddenly when people have seen many signs prior that have tipped them off? Jesus uses Noah's day as the example of the onset of Daniel's 70th week (Matt. 24:37-39). The whole purpose of citing Noah's day is to give an example of the suddenness of the coming wrath. The writer of Hebrews wrote, "By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith" (Heb 11:7). Notice the writer of Hebrews states that Noah was "warned by God about things not yet seen." There were no signs for Noah or anyone else to see that God's wrath was coming. That's the way it will be at the onset of Daniel's 70th week. The only warning comes from the word of God. This is why Jesus said, "A wicked and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but none will be given to it except the sign of Jonah" (Matt. 16:4). The only sign (sign of Jonah) refers to Christ's resurrection and cannot be visibly seen by us during the church age. This sign is only found by believing in what the Scriptures have said.

1 Thessalonians 1:10 10and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

That's what the Bible says I agree with this man it's all 1 day

Thank you Ptr. David Rosenthal. The end tmes sequence of the pre-wrath rapture gets very clear here. Post-Trib, Pre-Wrath. When we understand this, the bible verses will never have conflict. It will speak plainly to us. "These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." - John 16:33. God bless.

Mr. Rosenthal, Marvin, did he go to be with the Lord last year? Great life and mission that we still celebrate! Only bummer is that 70 didn't take off yet, Lord's will letting! I owe him, David and the Staff there! Soundest Biblical position on the Rapture that's out there!

Thank you so much for the simple way of explaining this. I already read your father's book, and I also met him, and he was wonderful, chatting with me in the 90's, in Toronto. He was in the middle of writing a sequel to The Prewrath Rapture Of The Church book, about the foolish and the wise virgins. I'm not sure if he finished the book or not. God bless you!

Very good! Thankyou very much.

GREAT Teaching! 😊 I learned a lot! Two questions... 1) After the Rapture... Will anyone be saved? What does their Salvation look like? (Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ - ir something else?) 2) What about those of us who are descendants of Jacob (Israel) Do we go through the time of Jacob's Trouble? (I pulled a Biden... Two words "Made in America) That was more than two questions 😮

After the Man of Sin is revealed in the middle of the 70th week, there will be a great falling away of Christians! 2 Thes. 2:3-4

The Revelation, Chapter 7, The 144,000, representing all 12 Tribes, fulfill the Great Commission! Notice they have Angelic help to accomplish this. Notice John is shocked that a number that can’t be numbered are born again! They loved not their lives to death answering the question of the 5th Seal…. How long till you avenge out blood? Revelation 6:9…. All martyrs. Notice they suffered great persecution! Blessings!

Thank you. I like the way you angled you easel. Much easier to see.

Well done

Pre-trib can evoke a feeling or life of laziness visions of grandeur

Excellent teaching

1 Thess 4:15 shows us that the rapture (i.e. those who are alive and remain) is handcuffed and hogtied to the resurrection (i.e. those who are asleep), and will not precede the resurrection. Jesus said (John 6:39,40,44,54) that the resurrection will be on the "last day". Therefore, the rapture will also be on the last day.

The truth will set us free 👍💯,

Yes!!!! The last trump is the 7th Trump of Rev. Then GOD'S WRATH BEGINS.

There were a lot of days of noah. Christ only mention the verse you quoted. He didn't include when noah boarded the arc & closed the door. Just what was happening during the days of noah. In other words not what happened to noah, , but was happening when noah lived

2 Thess. 2:8 states the reveal of the man of sin occurs at the return of Christ which destroys him, which would rule out the AOD.

Pre-Trib all the way. It’s the only one that makes sense and I believe it’s clearly taught in scripture.

You didn't mention Matt. 24:29-31. Post-trib and pre wrath are one and the same.

Martha said to him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day." John 11:24 (ESV) Rapture in the same moment.

Question regarding the { beginning of sorrows}: that seems like it could possibly be much longer than only 3 1/2 years, how do you interpret this to be only 3 1/2 years, since the things described during the{beginning of sorrows} are things that have been already happening and gradually increasing and becoming more intense, could not therefore the {beginning of sorrows} period be much longer than only 3 1/2 years, perhaps even decades or more?

To understand the wonderful truth of the pre trib rapture, one must be saved

Take note: The KEY TIME FACTOR here is WHEN the appearance of the 2 WITNESSES/Prophets of God in relation to the 7-year Tribulation... The TIME allotted for them to Preach is 3.5 years (1260 Days) + 3.5 Days (their death/resurrection) =1263.5 Days and then, they will be taken to Heaven by God... If they start in the Middle of the 7-year Tribulation, they will go beyond by 3.5 days after the Tribulation has ended... therefore, the 1st RESURRECTION and RAPTURE will take place while the 2 Witnesses are still Preaching until the Wrath of God comes in while they are still Preaching till the End... but does not make any sense that the CHURCH is gone, while the 2 Witnesses are still preaching to finish the allotted time given by God. logically speaking...

If Jesus doesn't know when he's coming back then I don't believe anyone else can know. Just be prepared and ready at all times because He is coming back no matter if you're pre trib, mid trib or post trib.

Sooth sayings are sweet for the ears of those who are unsaved and selfish. We want to save others through tribulations and leaving it for others is a sin. All Chistians are called for evangelising and chosen and became faithful to Jesus Christ. Their own security and safty is the last wish of a true Christian. That is what our savior Jesus Christ taught. Those who save will lose it and those who lost it for others will be saved for Christendom.

I don't think I can listen to this I used to believe it but the Bible is very clear. One resurrection of believers and one second coming. The return of Jesus is the same thing as a rapture. God's judgment is not going to affect believers but we will be here until the second coming.

Revelations covers more than the last 7 years

1 Thess 4:14 God brings with him the believers who have died, (that will be the souls, to be reunited with their body and then on to transformation). This ressurection is called the 1st resurrection. This occurence is referenced in Rev 20:5, and it happens at the beginning of the millennium. (That would be the end of the trib.)

If you are going to critique other views you had better get them right. Within 5 minutes you have already misrepresented the views. Pretty much straw man arguments from then on

What are your thoughts about the “last trump” being the second ram’s horn from Isaac’s binding?

So why doesn’t scripture, Revelation, tell us that at the 7th Trumpet is sounded, when it tells us all that will happen, we need to guess that the rapture will be included?

Mr Rosenthal: It’s written in Matthew 24:1-3: “Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came to Him to show Him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said to them, ‘Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left upon another, that shall not be thrown down.’ Now as He (Christ) sat upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, (1) Tell us when will these things be? (2) And what will be the SIGN of your coming, and of the end of the age? The temple buildings were utterly destroyed in 70AD with not one stone left upon another! However, there is a near and far fulfillment. But the future temple will not be destroyed; only the outer court will be given to the Gentiles. And the Gentiles will tread the holy city underfoot for 3 1/2 years.(Rev. 11:1-3). (Also NOTE the man “with the measuring rod!” Note Ezekiel 40:40!) And last, but not least, the word SIGN is singular and not plural! and you completely misinterpreted the meaning!

David, your father, Marvin missed a few things, and now you are missing the same things. Most bible students think "the tribulation" or the 70th Week of Daniel begins at the 1st seal. That is incorrect and is pulling the first seal out of its early church context. The truth is, just as your dad wrote, that the rapture must come just before the 6th seal start of God's wrath. Sadly, your father tried to move the 6th seal from where John placed it-between the 5th and 7th seals. In Revelation 4 and 5, we see first (chapter 4) the Holy Spirit still in the throne room, then in chapter 5 Jesus ascension and Him sending the Holy Spirit down as soon as He arrived back in the throne room. Jesus ascended around 32 AD, entered the throne room, and went, right then, to take the book from the Father and began, right then, to open the first seals. The first seal, opened around 32 AD aligns with the great commission. It is to represent the CHURCH taking the GOSPEL to the world. Seals 2, 3, and 4 are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel. God has allowed Satan to use wars, famines, pestilences and wild beasts in his attempts. Seal 5 is for the martyrs of the church age. They want to know when God will judge their murders, but are told that the time of judgment must wait for the FINAL church age martyr. In short, that is a huge hint to the time of the rapture, which will come just before the 6th seal start of wrath. Both your father and Robert Van Kampen believed that the rapture and the Day of the Lord will be back-to-back events. I also believe that. It fits what John wrote at the 5th and 6th seals. With all that said, the 70th will will then begin a few days later at the opening of the 7th seal and with the first trumpet. Once God told me (in what seemed like an audible voice) that He has MARKED the entire 70th week. I found His markers: He marked the 70th week with SEVENS: the 7th seal begins the week, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint and the week will end at the 7th bowl. Since 6 comes before 7 in counting, we can KNOW the rapture will be pre-trib: it will come just before God's wrath begins at the 6th seal, with the "tribulation" or 70th week beginning at the 7th seal. We can KNOW the rapture will be pre-trib because 7 comes before 8 in counting. John saw the church safely in heaven in Revelation 7, and then wrote of the start of the Week in chapter 8. The theory that the Day of the Lord will not begin until somewhere in the middle of the last half of the 70th Week is nothing but imagination. It is one of the seals sealing the BOOK, and the trumpet judgments (probably the entire 70th week) are written INSIDE the book. It is absolutely impossible to move a seal to anywhere else. They have been and will continue to be opened in sequence. Van Kampen TOTALLY MISSED IT when he imagined that all references to the sun turning dark were of ONE SINGLE event. The truth is, the sun will turn black, like it does in a total eclipse, as a sign for the start of the DAY: Revelation 6. But in Matthew 24, when the sun is "darkened," Strong tells us that if it is used for heavenly bodies, it means the absence of light-in other words, total darkness. This is the sign for Christ's coming to Armageddon-in Revelation chapter 19. Again, the sign for God's wrath and the DAY of His wrath is in Revelation 6. These two signs, total eclipses first, then seven years later total darkness, are for two very different events.

The falling away is within the jewish community not christians. I always saw it all from a christian perspective. That is very helpful and eye opening.

The trump of God, the trumpet Jesus blows to send the angels to gather the elect, the "last trumpet" is a reference to Zechariah 9:14-16. It is God who blows the trumpet there, not an angel. Paul taught out of the Old Testament, not out of dreams or visions. Jesus also referred to this passage in the Olivet Discourse, hence the illustration of His coming being like lightning, because it refers back to Zechariah 9 where the Lord's arrow goes forth as lightning.

"Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, & of the end of the age?” And Jesus answered & said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ & will deceive many. And you will hear of wars & rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, & kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, & earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then they will deliver you up to tribulation & kill you, & you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. And then many will be offended, will betray one another, & will hate one another. Then many false prophets will rise up & deceive many. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, & then the end will come."-Matthew 24:3‭-‬14 "Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ & our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, & the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes & exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth & destroy with the brightness of His coming. The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, & lying wonders, & with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness."-IIThessalonians 2:1‭-‬12

For the Elect's _SAKE_ The word "Sake" is not in the original Greek. So, it should more accurately read, "For the Elect, those day's will be cut short."

Im finding the pre wrath view more compelling with time. It seems to address the objections of the post trib position, while preserving the greater strengths of the pre trib position. The verse God will "keep us from the wrath coming upon the whole earth" undermines the post trib view pretty severely.

The bible is VERY clear that we ALL go through tribulation and must persevere THROUGH it. We are NOT saved FROM it! That is Dispensational theology to think that we are saved before tribulation. Example: Noah was saved by going THROUGH the flood and was not spared FROM it. That is a foreshadowing of the end times. See 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17. The bible supports a post-trib view. It does not support a pre-trib view. The book of Revelation describes 7 plagues, not 7 years of tribulation. The 7 plagues happen in a span of about 1 year.

Could the argument also be made that Paul himself had not yet been " caught up in the 3rd Heaven!" When he wrote : ‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:51‭-‬52‬ ‭NIV‬‬ [51] Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed- [52] in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

The fundamental error underlying all of these interpretations is the presumption that the period of tribulation is seven years prior to the second advent of Christ. A misapplication of Daniel's prophecy of 70 weeks, placing the seventieth week of seven years at a point immediately preceding the Day of the Lord, leads to a complex cascade of misinterpretations. It is not so complicated. Read Matthew 24:21 to 31 to understand when the tribulation _began_ and when it will end.

The pre trib people are following the example of those who believe in evolution. They have to keep moving the start of their timeline to be earlier and earlier in order to try and shoehorn in their beliefs and force it to fit Scripture. They refuse to let go of their preconceived ideas and notions in order to just read the plain text without any agenda.

Hopefully, many will come to understand the pre-wrath rapture, once they understand the difference between man's tribulation against man vs. G_d's wrath.

Pastors, preachers, evangelists,& believers., when tribulation begins we will having lot of work to do ___preventing people from taking the mark of the beast & worshipping him along with teaching gospel of Christ. & eternal life. Or involved in intense prayers for them & their miraculous physical & spiritual salvation. There will be great persecution & great miracles like in the old times. Many servants of God will lose all fear & volunteer to die preaching the Gospel...( In short)..... Some Christians talk of rapture before the revelation of the Antichrist & the tribulations & escape leaving this divine obligations.

But what is the restrainer that moves out of the way so that all of this can happen?

Post Trib, pre wrath…sure. If you separate the two…But we’re still gonna be here with immortal bodies. We’re gonna be here through it all…but we will be changed at his return, then the wrath is poured out.

So......do you consider this mid-tribulation then because its almost at the end?

There's the 24 elders in heaven before Jesus breaks open the 1st Seal. That's the Church, redeemed by the Blood of Jesus, from all countries and tongs. Glory to God!

Sorry but this is clear as mud to me. Birth pangs are happening now but you show them fitting within tribulations first half only? And how can you cut the 2nd 3-1/2 years in half when God clearly said 1260 days on BOTH sides of tribulation? Non of this is adding up for me.

Seeing that the Church is raptured at the end of the Sixth Seal (Revelation 6 and 7) and ushered to Heaven at that point, and that the Wrath of GOD (7 Trumpets and the 7 Bowls of suffering) commences from that moment on until the end of the remainder of the 7 year period, then what is Revelation 12 (7th Trumpet) referring to in the last verses of this chapter in which we read that the dragon (devil) goes after the Church in his anger?

Some mistakes with this one; Great tribulation does not end after the Day of the Lord,,,the Day of the Lord ends the great tribulation. The Day of the Lord being God's wrath happens at the blowing of the 7th trumpet. God's wrath is the pouring out of the 7 bowl/vials,, God's wrath is not the trumpet judgements (except part of the 7th trumpet) Gods people will not suffer through His wrath, but will be here for everything leading up to the blowing of the 7th trumpet. At the blowing of the 7th trumpet the gathering of God's people will occur, then Gods wrath will be poured out on the unbelievers. Day of the Lord is at the end of the 7 year period, not, as going by your diagram taking up nearly half of the second half of the great tribulation period. Where it says in Rev6:16, wrath of the Lamb, it is not referring to the wrath of God,,,, wrath of the Lamb occurs before the wrath of God, You are confusing the matter saying they are the same,, they are not. Read Isaiah 59:16-18 and Isaiah63:1-6 for context. That is why when Christ Jesus returns His garments are stained with blood in Rev19:13. Going by scripture, as far as the gathering of God's people (rapture) I am a post-trib, pre-wrath believer. Our Lord and Saviour will return and gather His faithful followers at the end of the great tribulation period of 3 1/2 years, once believers are gathered from the face of the earth, God will pour out His wrath on the unbelievers. As far as the 144000 they are not all Jews. Only those who of the nation of Judah are,,, the tribes of Judah and Benjamin. The 144000 do not evangelise Gods word, nowhere does scripture indicates as such. They are sealed in Rev7 and in Rev14 they are given to God and the Lamb as firstfruits. The 144000 represents the complete nation of Israel. But, before there is a complete nation of Israel, as the chosen 12000 from each tribe, they are the Two Witnesses. The Two Witnesses are the two nations of Israel and Judah, not Moses and Elijah. Read Ezekiel37, the two sticks being joined together to be one in Gods hand. This is the sealing of the 144000-firstfruits, two nations becoming one. As the Two Witnesses, the chosen of Judah and Israel evangelise and are prophesying. It is when they are killed, lay in the streets, stand on their feet and are called up to heaven (Rev11), that is when they become the anointed sealed 144000 and offered to God and the Lamb as firstfruits. The Two Witnesses will have their ministry at the start of the last 7 years and will end when the anti-christ is revealed 3 1/2 years prior to Christ Jesus returning. The 144000 are not sealed for protection from Gods wrath, they won't be here for it. These are the ones who will be kept from the hour of trial as written in the letter to Philadelphia church. The Two Witnesses will be killed outright, not given a choice to disown Christ Jesus. Those who are here for the great tribulation will be given a choice to deny their faith (in Christ Jesus) or be killed. This period of time is a testing time for God's people to remain faithful.

Pre-tribulation believers do not think it's way before the tribulation starts, they believe it is at the beginning of it. To believe that God would leave His church throughout the Tribulation is horrible. There is literally no reason for the rapture if it's at the end. The multitudes you speak of are ones that were killed during the tribulation period.