So i've been playing a lot of Jigglypuff for glory, and these are the changes i think would really help: Air Speed 1.269 -> 1.272 Jumpsquat 6F -> 4F Hard landing 4F -> 3F Jab 2 FAF 20 ->17 Dash Attack FAF 40 -> 30 Down Smash KBG 69 -> 73 Air Dodge Intangibility (F4-29) -> (F4-31) Forward Aerial FAF 37 -> 34 Upward Aerial FAF 45 -> 38 Upward Aerial Landing Lag 15F -> 12F Rollout Priority (only when fully charged) standard -> Transcendant Rollout Damage (7-14) -> (7.5-15) Rollout KBG 92 -> 94 Rollout Further Details: Jigglypuff can now move to the left and right as she falls after landing the move at a speed equal to 1/4 of her air speed. Pound Damage 11 -> 12 Pound Shield damage 20 -> 22 Sing Active Frames (29-33, 73-77, 122-134) -> (27-35, 71-79, 120-137) Sing FAF 180 -> 165 Rest Active Frames (2-4) -> (2-6) Rest KBG 66->73 Rest Further Details: Rest now has a unique attribute of forcing the target into a star KO animation when KOing off the upper blast line. If ALL of these changes were made, i believe that Jigglypuff would become a mid-tier.
We're asking for a decent mid/high Puff, not broken bullshit like Meta Knight in Brawl. For me these changes should be fine: - Rest KO's only trigger Star KO, AND ONLY STAR KO'S, not even the Screen KO which causes the opponent to respawn earlier. Under no circumstance, NO PUFF PLAYER SHOULD BE PUNISHED FOR SUCCESFULLY LANDING A REST. Unless you are playing Teams and your team mate doesn't wake up you in time before your other foe punishes you, which is the only exception to this rule. - Revert Fair to it's Brawl incarnation, a Kill Move instead of a Combo Move. Most times Weak Nair into Strong Nair is either impossible or very hard to land, but Weak Fair into strong fair it's almost always guaranteed. Also Weak Nair into Strong Fair works wonders. - Back Throw should be a KO Move. Now everybody got Kill Moves, LOT OF KILL MOVES. Puff should be given at least one more reliable Kill Move, Back Throw used to be a KO Move in Smash 64. Don't act like you don't know, that, even characters who used to have useless moves now have them buffed into KO Moves. - Dair should be autocancelable after it's active hitboxes, again, like it was in Brawl. She should be no longer punished for using short hop Dair, which is pretty awful and there is no reason to use short hop Dair unless you want a Jab Reset. - Up Air should be a KO Move. Given that Fair can be KO Move, while the other moves act as spacing / combo tools, Up Air has very poor range and it is useless in high percentages. Making it like it was in the N64 version should be more than enough. Now she got 2 Aerial Kill Moves (excluding Specials) - I prefer to revert Bair to either it's Brawl or Melee Incarnation. As a KO Move is pretty hard to land and due to it's low startup and poor range it is always almost beaten by anything faster and/or longer. - Revert Rollout to it's Brawl Incarnation. Given that Puff is garbage in Brawl, there was no point on nerfing Rollout. Brawl Rollout is fine, it's strong, safe on hit, and versus skilled players it's still an useless move, but at least it's better than nothing. - Revert Pound to it's Brawl or Melee Incarnation. Again, Sakurai, what the fuck, you are nerfing a character that is already bottom tier. What's wrong with you? - Oh and this bothers me. Give Rest only 1 active frame. This move is already good. We don't want scrubs to spam this move just because the + active frames. If you miss it, then you are not enough good with the character, and deal with it. Rest hitbox is even bigger than Melee and Brawl , why the hell would you want a 2-6 active hitbox Rest? Are you crazy? - This other thing always bothered me too, Jigglypuff's Spot Dodge, and Forward and Back Rolls are garbage too, but given that she is an aerial-based character I wouldn't care much for that, except give her an average Spot Dodge, not a below average one, unless this can be traded off with an arguably better Air Dodge which makes more sense for the character archetype. - Give her back her Melee Airspeed. - Give her an actually useful Down Smash, I wouldn't complain if they take the N64 Puff's Down Smash for Example. - Give her an actually useful Sing. With this I mean that the hitbox/waves of the move should remain always active until she stops singing until the very end of the move. This would make the move less useless, and force opponents to respect their spacing when some Puff player uses Sing. It's not that bad, opponents can still shield the whole duration of the move and can punish afterwards.
La Liga Compota A few points which you have wrong: 1. You say Rest is a good move, but objectively it isn’t. The hit box is tiny compared to 98% of the moves in the game, and many moves in the game kill just as early. So in comparison, Rest is pretty bad since it has a much higher risk than the most moves in the game with not nearly as much reward in proportion. Also, the duration of the punishable lag of this move is so miserable it makes Sakurai a literal dick. The only thing that should have that much punishability should be a failed Final Smash, and those aren’t used competitively so that’s okay too. 2. You said it makes sense for Puff to have one or two other moves besides Rest as reliable kill moves. She already does. B-Air and F-Smash are reliable kill confirms that top level JP players use consistently. Now, I get that B-Air is actually not all that reliable due to the frame data. I’m okay with changing the frame data there. But asking for another 4 kill moves besides these goes exactly against your idea of making Puff balanced. Giving Puff as many kill options as Mario or Shiek will make her more than just mid tier/high tier, especially with those changes included. 3. 1-frame active hit boxes are in all sincerity stupid. Again, there is not one ultra-rewarding kill move in the game that takes as much skill to land a Rest, and on top of this you want to take away almost all its frames? Retarded. Many pro players can’t even get two frame punishes on the ledge, you’re expecting the Jiggly pros to land a single frame move? We wanna make Jiggly a viable character, not a character that only deserves to be played by AI and super humans like Ally.
+Beefy Smash Doods Fix our Jiggly! Also Beefy Smash Dudes! Here's a neat rest setup I want you to try out. oddshot.tv/shot/clashkingstudios-2016032812243952
I used to love Sing set-up until I realized I relied on them far too much as a Jigglypuff main, and that it was actually starting to self-gimp my playstyle.
+Underrated Commentator Well, they aren't necessarily "good" combos, they just exist. The percent ranges aren't very lenient, the different hitboxes and varying aerial momentum can make the knockback wonky, and if you don't have a setup they can be quite difficult to confirm -- obviously if you can't confirm, just throwing it out hoping isn't a great idea due to the incredible punish potential on miss. Some characters have more difficult combos to perform, but you're essentially never going to be punished as hard for whiffing those combos as you are for a missed Rest.
transitioning from Melee puff, it's also really hard to remember that the Rest hitbox in Sm4sh is her whole body instead of the tiny dot between her eyes.
***** i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa344/gorfles/ssbpmframedata/RestHitbox.jpg lf my comment confused you, l meant to say instead of A tiny dot between her eyes.
I love these guys because if they find information that is already out there, they direct you to another community member's videos to help them out too. Great information on this game that we love also!
I think that Jiggs is going to be a bit of a breakout star when she gets more lab stuff like this in and a bit more representation. I don't think she'll go past middle or MAYBE upper-mid tier, but I think she's got just enough tools to make her a passable secondary counterpick. This is all theorycraft on my part and I am by NO means a professional-level player, but I really do think that someone at some point is going to surprise people with her in Smash 4.
Well, in Melee, Jiggs was considered super-low tier for a long, damn long time. Then, Mang0 and later HungryBox happened. I think Jiggs is no way staying that low far later, I'd expect her to follow this pattern again. She's just so different from the rest (pun intended) of the cast that it takes long. And a lab.
Exactly. Her rest combos are high risk, tougher to pull off, and sometimes conditional to execute compared to other move sets the other characters have. You're literally dead if you miss a single rest at 40% or more.
Yeah a video about my main Jiggs, thank u for uploading this and great job with the video. This video will help me improve my rests techniques and hopefully other jigglypuff mains
Jiggs has another problem: Because Star and Screen KO's now happen at random, if the opponent gets a regular KO he/she will respawn faster and punish Jiggs.
Being a jiggs main none of this was surprising to me. Most of these combos are difficult but the problem would be alleviated if rest would kill 15 percent earlier. That one buff would make her so much better than she already is.
+Jeffery Gaines It's less about Rest killing objectively earlier than it is her other moves comboing best below those percents and dropping closer to kill percent. Effectively you could also revise her moveset to work better. Jiggs doesn't particularly have difficulties racking up damage to points where Rest kills; the problem is also being able to connect in a reliable way at those percents.
These links don't work (well at least for me). Also, as a small tip, you can rest out of Corrin's charging f-smash due to it's multi-hit properties similar to jabs. EDIT: They work now
Thanks for this great video. Jiggs is one of my favourites pockets, I think the 3rd/4th character I use. I use a lot of air dodge --> rest, my own tech (falling bair on mid % to pound with jump then little fall to rest), now I'll try to add the late fair and foot-> dair&rest combos :3
No, Tr4sh Puff is Garbage Puff. If he should play any other Puff than Melee Puff then it must be Play N64 Puff. N64 Puff is viable, easy to learn, and more similar to Melee. Not this unrecognizable Tr4sh bullshit.
I'm glad to see the Puff get more attention, and the list is great! The only thing I would add is the Jab 1/2 to Rest mixup Also, shortly above the ground, Rising Pound into Rest on shield will guarantee a shield break. It's much more risky than just using the Nair, though, even if Rest does do more shield damage,...
I used to play Jigglypuff so much before, I considered her my main, but so many other characters have been buffed while she has gotten nothing, she feels too weak. In addition to being so bad in for glory because of the lack of platforms and lag making rest too unreliable, I feel she lacks the proper tools to deal with many of the characters now. I had so much fun playing with her before, even if I still do, it doesn't feel as rewarding, and it feels as if I'm working too hard to make the character work. Thank you for making this video to share light on some of the things Jigglypuff is able to do, but I don't think that will be enough. #BuffThePuff
I knew I was watching something _really_ special when it got to the part with using her down air to buffer for a missed footstool. TheReflexWonder is a freaking genius. I would usually just play Jiggs to mess around, but I wouldn't mind actually trying with them after watching a few of these.
Thanks for the killer video, man! I main jiggs with my buddies casually and am always looking for a new way to get in a rest or two, and this video should help immensely. Especially since one of my guys mains Donkey Kong. He won't know what hit 'im!
Thank you for helping to spread this information . Hopefully it will result in more people picking her up! :D By the way she also has another option select for rest: >Shield and press down-b she will spot dodge, if it is a perfect shield she will instantly rest the opponents attack. Obviously do not use this option select against disjointed characters(unless VERY close) and any projectiles.
Rest combos...just what I needed :) People at school already get scared/annoyed/angry of my Puff. Even this one good Samus player at school (I consider him one of the best there) seemed like he wasn't looking forward to our match in a tourney
Hello a Jiggs main here. There are other cool tricks to get a rest: 1. Edgeguard Rest: When your opponent tries to get into the platform just wait at the edge. Read your opponent but mostly they try "Get up attack". You can either shield the entire atack and go for the rest, or spot dodge to rest. If they roll you can roll to rest. But if they jump you may not get the hit so better no risk it. 2. Shield to rest: For close fighthers just put up your shield, take the hit and rest. It needs a little practice because of the location but it works most of the time. Is very effective with jiggs dittos.
Here are a few more rest tricks: 1: Shielding almost any dash attack is an easy rest, same with most attacks that aren't spaced properly. 2: And the way I land most of my rests are through people rolling. If someone rolls into you in any way they're dead. You can corner them and they could panic and roll into you, works best with mediocre players. 3: If they're on the ledge, if you guess correctly you can get a rest. If you're at the ledge and they do the roll get up, you can roll backwards with them and get a rest, works against almost every character, and if they ledge attack you can spot dodge and then rest. Puffs arieals are actually pretty good in this game, if she just had actually constitant combos into rest and if rest killed slightly earlier she'd be at least mid tier. btw source is I've been a puff main since 3DS.
I can't believe this video says that the rest is so difficult to land in this smash, I feel that the rest is extremely easy to land in smash 4! Maybe I feel that because it was way harder in Brawl and I managed to master that move in brawl instead of crying on how Jigglypuff was nerfed I made it great again. Excelent video! Jiggly mains will make Jigglypuff great again.
Nice to see that at least the Community cares about Puff unlike Nintendo who still didnt buff her at all (the only character with no buffs as well). Anyway great video.
I thank you, I can rack up damage as Puff easily but I never knew easy ways to get rest off. So now instead of getting almost every kill with B-air, I will now utterly destroy my friend who linked me this video.
+Bill Roger It's actually child's play against non-stationary heavyweights. A weak F-Air to rest is super easy on DeDeDe, Bowser, Donkey Kong, and Charizard. They are characters who suffer miserably when facing my puff.
+Beefy Smash Doods The Footstool rest thing where you press A and B to get different results depending on a situation is called an "Option Select"; and is fairly common in traditional fighting games. Ryu has something this for his FADC. Just a bit of knowledge for you. :3c
FINALLY! A video that showcases what I've been telling all my Jigglypuff mains to do for the past year and a half!! Now that there's finally a *popular* video of these techniques, all Jigglypuff players can finally start getting better performance out of her.
Derek Lewis Only if you whiff a rest and he uses a charged side smash. Also, yes to an uncharged side smash at 60% if he has limit break boost, and only at the end of the stage.
***** jiggs anywaher from like mid to edge of stage can get absolutely blasted by clouds side smash from 60% and up. They gave him the OP smash versus the lifht puff ball
Derek Lewis This definitely is no longer the case. I used to die at 60% from anywhere in the stage in patch 1.1.4. However, in 1.1.5, I'm not dying from any of Cloud's nerfed smashes until 80% unless I foolishly let the cloud user land a fully-charged smash, or he's taking advantage of limit break boosts.
***** Jiggs is light, cloud hits hard. Sure you can live with good di but she can still he blasted from 60% and up depending on where you are at. Now dont get offended, im not talking bad about her. thats just how it is.
Thanks so much for this. I'm not very good at rest to the point where I've started to use Sing alot in Smash.... And there are still times when I miss when they're asleep. I'm gona use this one to make my favorite character better.
I already knew about the Dair thing already, there's a video of it on yt. I also knew about Fair --> Rest, but I didn't realize it was so easy to do until this video.
All her rest combo confirms also combo into themselves. Combos like falling Uair -> Uptilt are possible if you're not at the percent range to combo into rest. Uptilt -> Dair, and Dair can combo into late Fair for a rest confirm at, again, very specific percents.
I love everything about this video except for one thing: training mode is not optimal for combo training. I know the alternative (VS mode with infinite time) is a lot more tedious, but it's the only way to find true combos. This was a very beefy video regardless, but just wanted to point this out. Great work!
here is a combo....... well with customs, so at 70-85% you can Uthrow then use Rising rest for a kill cambu and at higher percent like 100-125% (percent may be different if a character is heavier) you Up air and then use Rising rest
U-Throw to Jumping Rest (custom Up Special) works pretty well as a true combo. It's also weird, since it's hitbox lasts longer than expected. Sometimes, if you a U-Throw into Jumping Rest and don't hit the opponent yet, you can still kill them if they touch you (at certain percents).
Soft Bleach It isn’t a terrible move, but it is not a great move either. It is O.K. Also, although she is underrated, she is definitely low tier. I disagree that she is bottom tier, but there is no way she can rank better than, say, 43 in the game. Although she can combo into Rest, these combos are significantly harder and less reliable than they were in Melee.
I'd love to see a video on option selects like the footstool to rest option select you mentioned. That would be really cool imo. I know ryu has an option select out of focus attack depending on if he was hit during it or not, and that mewtwo has a grounded footstool to confusion option select depending on if he gets the footstool or not.
