Jerx Jeremy Mario? 1v1 only... FG = Smash, Duo, 1v1. Go in duo or even Smash, there is always a Zelda scrub who spam special moves and camp like a fegit.
Maybe it has something related to this: Most of the time of the untecheable frames Cloud could press B again to activate the second part of his Climhazard, so it might be that the game "disables" other inputs for it. Are there any other 2 phases up-b moves?
Nah he's still extremelly good he just has the Little Mac syndrome of being DEAD if he's too far offstage, but what makes this not as bad as Little Mac is his limit brake... You see I think Cloud mains will now be more careful when wasting Limit Moves, beacuse if they don't have limit offstage they could likely die, so maybe from now on Cloud mains will not use any other Limit Move as much just so they can recover, if they manage to do that correctly then this might not be such a big deal. I main Cloud and I think that may be what I'll be trying...
I wouldn't count on it, this doesn't do much to harm his already terrible recovery any further as he can still be gimped the same ways as before and this option will likely be covered by good Cloud players anyway by Limit Clim, aerials etc.
Welp he's still really good he just has the little mac syndrome of being dead if he's offstage... Maybe Cloud mains will waste their limits much less from now on in case they need to recover, shit like this can change the Cloud Metagame.
"this video shouldn't have been made, we cloud mains already have it hard enough as it is". "I only play cloud because final fantasy 7 is my favorite game of all time." in reality (man this character is so good, I have never even touched a final fantasy game in my life). "cloud is the little mac of sword fighters". "this character isn't even that good". "you should've air dodged my up-air". Things cloud players say.
the year is 20VII literally everyone plays cloud at m2k levels of up air. because of this, the untechable stage spike meta has evolved drastically and is the only factor in determining a match
you can, but it's probably cause the timing is different. I've done offline stage techs, but I often don't expect them in time. I get killed more often by pressing the dodge button a half a second before the opponent's arial, and still get hit...
Well, this was a joke. I tech on for glory all the time, but with the average skill level being less than if you gave a chimpanzee the remote and let them play, I thought it would be funny.
lol its almost like for glory players dont even have the ability to adapt. They're just like, "Oh, I got hit because I rolled into up smash. Let's roll in the same direction again!"
No way. His netural is way too good. I think he'll drop out of top 5 eventually but limit and his disjoint + frame data is way too good for him to ever drop out of the top 10.
***** He can also just randomly die, and his success is based around landing Limit Breaks. Those are REALLY polarizing factors in a game where consistent characters tend to pull you through brackets.
MockRock - Smash Bros and More Almost every character can randomly die offstage though. He has too many tools to keep from going offstage in the first place and his recovery really isn't as bad as people make it out to be. Has a disjoint to protect him, wall jump, side B mixups, good vertical distance. Ability to keep limit for recovery to prevent being gimped. There would have to be a major anti-Cloud discovery made because his MU spread is way too good to drop out of top tier.
***** Any character _can_ randomly die, but Cloud consistently _does_ randomly die, even in the hands of top players. Are his tools really amazing enough to compensate for going through a bracket with 2-3 less stocks than anyone else? And in terms of anti-Cloud discoveries, they're being made. Esam found out that you can't do a diving recovery. These guys found out you can't do a low recovery. Nobody is consistently implementing this info, which is why I said to give it a year. They will.
You know what? Cloud needs a buff. Cloud needs a reflector that comes out frame 1. Cloud needs a command grab that has super armor. Cloud needs 4 more mid air jumps. Cloud needs his dair to spike on any hit. Cloud needs to be able to use any attack out of downB. I mean it'll completely ruin For Glory but at least our tournaments will be safe when he's banned.
I feel like this is one of the 3 things that bend the rules of Sm4sh, coincidentally, all coming from DLC characters. We've got Corrin's Counter Surge. We've got Bayonetta's recovery, And now we've figured out Cloud's Tech.
CLOUD MAINS HATE THIS! Smash dood finds new trick to punishing Cloud, only for frames 18+! Seriously, the buzzfeed article headlines are writing themselves.
Since 80% of the Smash community mains, seconds, or pockets Cloud, it's not surprising to see that 2/3 of the poll voted "No!" Looks like we'll just have to improve our counter-play. I guess players like having a multi-purpose K.O. Punch that can't be beaten out of them...
With this, Cloud is pretty much dead if he goes under the stage. Esams video shows how to punish clouds high upB and put him into a position where he has to go low or snap the ledge with jump + upB. This is a pretty big discovery
***** That's only if they decide to stream it on national tournaments again. That is what caused the fall of Project M, not Nintendo finding out naturally.
This doesn't change the fact he is still a beast on stage. We all already know his recovery sucks. Now it sucks even more. I'm sure experienced Cloud mains will find ways around it.
I think it might be untechable because of a new property that doesn't let Cloud grab onto the ledge immediately. The end lag starts before the animation is over. Something like that.
I haven't tested this, but my guess would be that... -During those frames, the game is waiting for an input for the Up-B to go down -If Cloud gets hit during those frames, it's still looking for an input for the Up-B, thus the tech is disabled. -This would also explain that he can tech if he's far enough away
Hmm interesting. The only thing that I think might make Cloud's up-B a special case is the fact that you can choose to extend the attack by hitting B again at the apex. It may be interesting to do some further testing if anyone else on the roster can do this. I can't recall any off the top of my head, but I may be overlooking someone or some obscure custom move. I wonder if initiating the second part of the move will allow for a frame 18 tech. Of course no one in their right mind would do this unless they are 100% sure they are going to be stage spiked.
so apparently, Cloud now has to rely on luck and camping to survive and avoid getting stage spiked... which is stupid IMHO. Glad it nerfs Cloud as I hate as easy he is to play and spammable he is, but I dislike that he has to rely on luck to survive. This will make him more boring to watch.
i doubt this will effect how "boring the character is to watch" at all lol that's like saying that the discovery of the 25% spin will make smash 4 more boring to watch (which on paper seems sorta true) yet nobody is complaining about it effecting their enjoyment as a spectator
Snack Attack! it is. The spinning animation happens about 25% of the time when you're over 100% and get hit. Combine that with the fact that the only way Cloud can survive a stage spike with this discovery is the spinning animation, this results in Cloud players relying on that animation to survive, but since it's so low, they have to get and RELY on luck.
considering that the untechable spin is the only time cloud can tech this... i think it's a glitch/oversight where the tag that says 'he can tech' is set incorrectly when he's interrupted for some reason. when he gets the spin that says 'you can't tech' it flips the boolean the other way... letting him tech
hey guys i was watching this video and it got me thinking what do you think about making custom stages to practise? Eg. Make a box stage with spikes or lava at the bottom on 999% to practise teching? Are there any other stage designs to practice other things with? Can you make a video if you think of anymore :D
This is actually stupid... They should fix these techable/ untechable situation because then the game is based more on luck, more so than actual skill. I don't even play cloud for my mains and I think it's really stupid that the game can just decide that you lose. This isn't Mario party or Pokemon where luck is a factor. Like actually Sakurai cmon!!! Hopefully an NX version comes and fixed this stuff.
I wondered while watching this, if it maybe has something to do with the jump tech you aply by inputing up in the left joystick while jumping, because you said he needs certain amount of knocback so you teched it with low knockback and then you did it with much more but not with the jump tech. Maybe is that? I hope you understand what i mean.
i think it's because the move doesnt technically finish until cloud goes into freefall and that locks him out of anything else for the remaining frames of the move+hitstun frames which prevents him from teching
Well, good thing I'm a slave to the meta. With this information out there, why would I main Cloud? Let's see... Are Rosalina and Luma still good? Okay. I main them now. Mario Galaxy is now my favorite game and Dabuz has *always* been my favorite.
Honestly speaking, this does make me think that it is a glitch. The only reason I find that to be the case, however, is because the spin animation is altered. Although a scenario might be that they intend;ed for that to be untechable, but they forgot that the spin animation could happen and switch it. I believe the untechable spin works by, instead of saying "You're spinning so you can't tech" they programmed it in as "You're spinning so switch whether or not you can tech" meaning that if you couldn't tech before, but then you spin, now you CAN tech.
So basically, cloud cant tech during frames 18-28 of his Up-b if hit with a strong enough move, but has a 30% chance of being able to tech it after 100%?
I feel it was unintentional, and that someone mixed up the properties of spiral launch and frame 18-28 tech. These things happen. I mean look at -Meta-Knight from Brawl... Very well thought out character,
And I thought Lil Mac had trouble recovering. If this is the case with Cloud, I think it'll make Cloud Mains recover high more often, but considering that characters with counter can literally be waiting for him or those with shields that push him away, {Palutena, Pit, Dark Pit) this could literally be a Cloud Killer.
yeah, probably a glitch. I always thought Clouds were just missing techs. Good to get some clarification. This really doesn't change much though, people can still just stay on stage and dsmash or early frame jab instead. It's safer than going offstage, easier to perform and gives the same result.
Hey BSD, I've been wondering something. As (hopefully) everyone knows, in Smash bros, attacks deal both percent/damage and knockback. But I've been wondering about something probably irrelevant to anything. If I used a smash attack when my opponent was at 100%, and it added 25% as well as killing them with the knockback, would the knockback be based off of the base 100%, or would the move's damage apply before the knockback, causing the move to actually kill at 125%? Sorry if the wording doesn't make much sense.
In melee it's simply what people are used to, and how their controller is held simply reflect that. It's actually not optimal if used normally, which is why some players use claw grip (for jump cancelling shines and stuff) In Project M (and sort of in Brawl) since controls can be changed, a lot of people use Z to jump because it frees up the thumb for the A, B buttons and C-Stick allowing you to do stuff like multishines super easily. Z -> Down-B is easier than Y,X, or Up -> Down-B because it uses a different finger than the conventional method. Other than that, it's very comfortable. The older 1st generation controller has a really nice plastic that is nicer than the Wii Pro controllers in my opinion. For whatever reason, doesn't get as slick when your hands get sweaty. The Wii controllers tend to lag out sometimes, the buttons feel a lot stiffer, and the main control stick just really isn't in the optimal spot for me. I guess it boils down to preference at that point though. I think GC Controllers is the most ergonomic controller ever made.
I actually teched that spin animation while playing against a LVL9 CPU on my 3DS. I have footage and I actually tweeted it to you guys but I didn't get a response. I'll tweet it again if you want
So cloud getting launched during a certain range of frames of his up had the values of the spin animation and normal hitstun switched. So someone made a mistake when creating clouds code.
"A few days ago we made a poll asking if you think Cloud needs a nerf so we could have an excuse to post this video. You said no, he doesnt need a nerf... So we didnt give a damn and posted the video anyway :D"
I keep thinking that he should have been able to snap to ledges, but for some reason he doesn't. So far Little Mac has a run for his money for worst recovery.
Welp that is weird. Also I didn't know about that spinning thing over 100%. I hate "random" things like that. I think the spin itself making you unable to tech is actually a good idea, but they should have made it so that you always spin like this whenever you're over that 100% (or a variable threshold depending on the character weight), not "about 30% of the time".
Cloud is already borderline inconsistent in terms of results. You can get gimped at 0 and die from it because "lol no double jump". That doesn't happen with most other characters (looking at you, Little Mac). The only thing that kept him safe in tournaments was the fact that people could mix up recovery options. However, even that's pretty much outta the window now. ESAM already made a video on how to perfect shield & punish Cloud's falling up b recovery, and now we have this untechable shenanigans. He's still a good character, but I see his viability in tournaments going down the drain the more we learn about him. He may have his disjoints & limit, but in my opinion his neutral is very linear and easier to predict than Diddy or Sheik neutral for instance. The only thing he has is killpower (lots of it), but is hella inconsistent to balance it out.
I gave up competitive smash a long time ago, my FG record is like 1-99, and I don't give a flying sassafrat about tiers, but it will be fun to try this out on Cloud mains.
