A large part of the Band of Brothers series focused on Captain Herbert Sobel who was the first CO of Easy Company and his running feud with everyone else in the company.
Where an actor plays a flawed character well, you tend to focus on your dislike of that character, forgetting that it is an actor portraying the part. Schwimmer gives such a superb performance that you start thinking he IS Sobel. He doesn't get enough credit for this portrayal as his character is one you view with distain.
A very profound and well articulated observation. I often think, if we're drawn into & can either like or loathe any character, regardless of who the actor is playing the part (simply forgetting their celebrity status or otherwise), then their performance should be recognised. Schwimmer & Sobel is a great example of this.
Totally agreed. Also they made the understandable creative choice to make Sobel theantagonist to Winters during the first 2 or 3 episodes. No doubt that Mr. Winters took personal disdain against someone like Mr. Sobel. One a warrior the other a mere mortal, acting as a warrior. Have a good one!
Heard that from my grandpa many times. WW2 veteran and lieutenant in the army. His advice when I was young literally keeps me from going ham on management at work.
I spent nearly 40 years in uniform, and have served under plenty of leaders. Some led by example and some out of fear. I can honestly say if you lead by fear you'll only get what you ask from soldiers, nothing more. Those leaders who led by example and fairness got even more from the troops. Just my two cents...
I agree ! I was fortunate to have leaders in 1986 that were all about lead by example! That is the type of leader i was. Your soldiers have to respect the rank but not the leader. If you earn there respect there is nothing they will not due for you
As a former soldier I can tell you if a senior NCO or Officer carried themselves like Sobel, their subordinates absolutely wouldn’t give you there best. However, if they carried themselves as Winter’s did, their soldiers would move mountains to carry out the mission.
Even in the business world, good leadership is better than leading with fear tactics. Yes, you need structure and discipline. But Winters got far more unit cohesion than Soebel. And he led them through Hell, literally, not just runs up and down Currahee. Thank God for Major Winters. Only God knows how many men survived the war with him as their leader.
The story goes that David Schwimmer was sitting by the real Dick Winters at the premier of BOB. Schwimmer asked Winters if he got Soebel right. Winters replied, "Son you were no where close to how terrible that SOB was, "
I'm not sure why Winters had so much animosity toward Sobel even 60 years after all of this happened and how badly things ended for Sobel after the war. Winters did get his way in the end and always came across as a very humble individual. I will do a video about it in time.
@@War_And_Truth Winters did have some nice things to say about Soebel, he said that Soebel's brutal training is why a lot of Easy Company survive the war. He was just telling Schwimmer they left a lot of stuff out about Soebel. But this was war and Soeble was going to get a lot of men killed, even Sink knew this.
Richard Winters said in one interview that if Easy Company invited Herbert Sobel to a reunion he (Richard Winters) would not attend. Apparently Herbert Sobel was meaner than he was portrayed in the mini-series by David Schwimmer.
Sobel seems to have been one of those officers who was very good at training men and absolutley horrible at leading them. The two best lessons I ever learned when it came to leading men were to never ask my people to do anyting I wasn't willing to do myself and always to lead by example. Those two principles stood me well in a 36 year career in law enforcement and I never regretted either one of them.
When i was a doctor and naval officer at Bethesda medical, i nearly came to blows with the "fear and intimidation" type over his treatment of the residents. The irony was i outranked him. But he was confident in a command structure that placed personal advancement over any other consideration. At Bethesda, from 83-86, there were far more Sobels than Winters'... God Bless the Dick Winters'!!!
props to you for having integrity. I work in the government sector, my department has 20 or so buildings, and each building has someone in charge. People like myself and others in my subordinate position could easily advance to those positions, but the hours and increased workload and responsibilities isn’t worth the small pay increase. Thus you only get people who are power hungry aka Sobels in those positions. They really have no power, the head of our division has all the power. They cant even process our overtime or write people up. But still you see them going out of their way to turn the position into something it isnt like checking security camera footage to catch someone taking a few extra minutes on break or being a few minutes late. All so they can rat to the administration and feel like they have some power. Not realizing that quite literally any of us could have the same position we just dont want it. Im of the school of thought, if someone is a few minutes late who cares. What matters is all the work done by the end of the shift? are they good at their job? do they get complaints about their work? Its like Sobel looking for reasons to revoke leave. Unfortunately those people are always going to be among us, people like you and I have to continue being the Winters to their sobel
We always regarded those types of officers as having a stick up their asses. Administration of unnecessary discipline. It's always the smallest and prettiest things that catch their eye. Not anything that makes the team better or brings them closer together; no just to let you know who the sob is in charge. Petty.
The fact that Sobel brought the charge at all shows his unfitness for command. He was wasting his time and more importantly the army's time on an issue of no significance, while the men were prepping to go to war. It's inexcusable to be involved in your own petty rivalry's when your country is in a war.
I recall reading somewhere, Sobel had it in for Winters because Winters was more popular with the men than he...Sobel...was. He was trying to knock Winters down a peg or two by Court Martialing Winters.
So, Army veteran, lifelong military historian and Civil War reenactor here. There are clear similarities between Sobel and the Federal MGEN George McClellan in that both were great trainers but lousy commanders. The big difference, of course, was that McClellan was beloved by his troops and that can not be said of Sobel. Sobel was a martinet, reveling in his authority but being unwilling to accept the risks and duties of command. There is an excellent British Officer Efficiency Report from WW1 that sums it up nicely: "This officer's men would follow him anywhere... mostly out of a sense of morbid curiosity. "
Little Mac was an outstanding training officer but a horrible Army Commander. Honestly, he probably never should have commanded anything larger then a Corps... His men loved him because he hated the thought of casualties And as such didn't press his advantage at Antietam because he was more worried about taking casualties then winning the war. Grant, Sherman, Meade, Hancock, Reynolds, and Thomas were all much more effective Union Generals. Had Reynolds not been killed leading his men into position on Day One of Gettysburg He would have made that battle even shorter with more casualties to the Rebels then what they had even with Pickets, Trembles, and Pettigrews Charge on Day 3.
Classic case of when a bully takes on somebody to stand their ground when they know there is injustice. Winters did the right thing. One of my favorite scenes in the series. Leading a team using inspiration and gaining the admiration by the troops is far more than effective than leading by fear and intimidation. This works in the corporate world as well as the military. Thanks for sharing.
Schwimmer asked Winters if his portrayal of Sobel had been too harsh. Winters replied that Schwimmer actually made Sobel appear a lot nicer than he actually was.
@@georgesouthwick7000 From my experience with the military there are lots of turds that float to the top. I can only imagine had bad it is now in todays woke DEI military.
As they clearly state in the BoB book, Easy Co. men would have 'fragged' CPT Sobel themselves upon being dropped into Normandy on D-Day, had Sobel not been relieved by COL Sink prior. As such, they would not have allowed Sobel to get anyone killed in combat by his gross ineptitude, as they would have killed him outright themselves. And rightly so. Not only was Sobel completely ineffective as a field soldier and a tactical leader, he was completely despised by his men for his chickenshit drama and excessive and sick sadism. "Payback is a mutha!"
Not just that, but less directly the Company HQ group's plane, which Sobel was meant to be on, was shot down before it was able to drop any paratroopers, killing Sobel's replacement (Lt. Thomas Meehan) along with everyone else on the plane.
@@alexvillalva1832 On D-Day, Sobel parachuted into Normandy with the rest of the 101st Airborne Division as commander of the 506th's service company. Hh actually did drop into Normandy and........ Immediately after landing, Sobel assembled four men and destroyed a German machine gun nest with grenades before joining the rest of the division near Carentan.
The great scene is the look on schwimmer/sobel's face when Winters asks for court martial. he knows this will come out as he had no real justification ad what else would come out them. in their books the enlisted men later said sobel put them in good shape, but the officers clearly hated sobel. Winters rarely talked down about others, but he made his contempt for sobel known.
Sobel did an excellent job training easy company. In spite of their loathing for him personally and his leadership style many credited his training to keeping them alive during the war. That should not be overlooked. That being said I’ve served under officers and NCOs who were tyrannical martinets like him. They lower morale and hurt the division.
Sobel helped unify and build camarederie (sic ) WITHIN the unit. They ALL helped each other survive Sobel's hassles and absurd discipline. Doing so built unit morale, integrity and strength; especially among the NCO's. That provided a LOT of support under combat conditions. Americans strength (i.e., individuality and entrepreneurship) is ALSO our weakness. We have serious problems working together as a TEAM because it means we must "give up" some of our own personas. During a OCS training program, the cadre deliberately forced us to work together in order to survive and thrive! MUCH of America's current political problems have been created by our absurd and childish insistence on "Never Back Down" and "Stand Fast; Don't Give an Inch". Great on a sports field or court; VERY BAD facing four very bad international actors, i.e., Russia, China, Iran and N. Korea! I was 10 years old on the 4th of July, 1946. EVERYONE WAS A TRUE BLUE, RED, WH ITE AND BLUE AMERICAN THEN!!! These days, too many want to just play in their own sand boxes!
@@richardeschallert8526 easy company were highly disciplined, well conditioned soldiers. They absolutely built each other up, and helped each other get through it. However it was sobel’s training, adherence to strict standards in uniform and equipment maintenance that set easy company as the standard. In many cases it kept them alive and kept them going through hellish conditions. Many of the men in easy company who survived credited their survival to their training under him. He was absolutely a martinet by all accounts, his men hated him, and you don’t get the nco’s to commit article 92 violations like they did just to get rid of any bad officer. So he was definitely a real piece of work. That being said he played a pivotal role in easy company’s success, and he deserves to be remembered for that as well.
I wonder if it wasn't the *combination* of Sobel's negative leadership, along with the better leadership of people like Winters and Lipton, that created the great company. Sobel set a high standard and created a trauma-bonding opportunity, which other leaders at the Platoon level handled in a positive manner. Just my theory. You have to wonder what would have happened if the subordinate leaders weren't top notch.
@@executivedirector7467 you are right, but there’s a little more to it. Winters was an exemplary officer. He was fair but disciplined. He was an officer who served alongside his men, not had his men serve under him. His leadership definitely was instrumental to the operational success of easy company. There was a method to sobel’s harshness that people don’t seem to understand. the physical conditioning that toughened them up guaranteeing they could jump, march, and then reach the fight with enough strength to fight if they had to. He trained them to keep their gear in the best possible condition. Looking for anything that could lead to it breaking down and becoming useless. He trained them to look for any flaws in their uniforms. So their uniforms would stand up to the enviornments they were in. They both contributed to easy company’s success just sobel tends to get villified. While i am sure he has it coming, he should also be remembered for his contributions. That’s all i am saying.
Incredible series !!! Had this scene actually went the Courts Martial Sobel would be done as a leader That’s why the look of stunned surprise on his face. Great to see the actual letter. Thanks for posting.
A good leader always leads from the front. As for the order of priorities they should be: 1st and most important = accomplishing the mission 2nd and very close to the first = the well being of your men 3rd and last = your own well being and career development
You forgot the last comment of the tactical officer in that block of instruction: 'You take care of the first two and the last one usually takes care of itself.'
Truth, I was taught as a 2nd LT by a CMSgt that a good Officer never takes a bite to eat until the men are fed and never lays their head down until their men have a place to rest. I never forgot this during my career, my Airmen and NCOs never failed me because they knew I wouldn't fail them.
Oh boy, what a difficult topic to discuss since none of us were there. I served 26 years in the Army as an 11H/11B from 1983-2009 and while on recruiting duty I had a CO that was nearly identical. Now this next part will come as a shock to most but you have to consider how a man is formed before coming into the Army, if a boy is raised in a home and with mentors where he is constantly told he is a superior race and all others are beneath him and there to serve them, it makes it easy for the man to embrace an aggressive nature. This captain I had was the same way with all 7 NCO’s and at the time I was a newly promoted E-7 and a Gulf War Vet, non-Infantry Soldiers are intimidated by our CIB’s and it’s very annoying. So one night my equally toxic and abusive 1SG told me at 2130 to have both my Recruiters to return to the Recruiting Station and get back on the phones and make more appointments to which I replied “1SG, I don’t think that’s going to happen….click” so, the next morning at 0830 my jewish CO was sitting behind my desk and ordered me to stand at attention and read the Article 15 and then told me to endorse either concur or trial by court martial, I chose the latter and that’s when his face completely changed. Mind you, this was in 1997 and in Eureka, CA which is in the middle of nowhere. I was then sent to Ft. Lewis to confer with Army JAG and the JAG OIC called me into his office and spoke with me for over an hour and was shocked at the evidence I showed him to our abusive command climate. We used to call it “lead by laptop” since we constantly got emails threatening all of us with things like “you will do your job or you will go away!” And it just got worse from there. Our 1SG was pissed that we didn’t cheat to get people in the Army and I was a top producing Recruiter from 1993-95 and now we’re scraping by, I wonder why….lol. The 1SG told all the 7 station commanders (myself included) that even his recruiter used a “ringer” to get him around the ASVAB test which shocked us but explained a lot since low IQ people often use fear and intimidation tactics. The minimum IQ for enlistment is 83 so that meant he was sharp as a bowling ball. So after talking with the JAG OIC he sent my BC a two page letter explaining my rights and the likely outcome and to save the command any embarrassment that they should dismiss this immediately….which he did. Obviously the CO was livid but now everyone knew how they were abusing Soldiers and a few months later I PCSed and a year later the entire chain of command was relieved and told to either retire or face trial for abuse of power charges and the 1SG and CSM retired immediately and the CO was mustered out where he went home and still lives with his mother. The 1SG immediately applied to be a deputy sheriff in a nearby county and a couple years later he decided to run for election as Sheriff. A few of us checked in on the former 1SG now and then so we thought it was only fair the citizens of Deschutes County learned about his military service he liked to wave around and wrote a couple emails to some of the local newspaper and TV reporters about why he was forced out and how he broke one NCO’s back and pulled a gun on another. Needless to say, he lost the election dismally. Abusive people are drawn to positions of power, they crave power over others which is one reason why we have some bad cops, thankfully they’re not all like him. So my experience makes me easily see the facts with Dick Winters, Winters was constantly having to do damage repair that Sobel did with his abusive nature and Sobel probably cared less about how his actions impacted the men especially when he was in the field since some Officers can be a completely different type of leader in the field than in the rear but if they’re worse in the field, that’s a deal breaker. For those NCO’s to do a letter of no confidence takes a huge amount of guts and they knew the consequences so to consider for one second that Dick was doing all this because he felt Sobel didn’t deserve his rank is comical at best. Yes, Dick was probably annoyed but that’s no big deal, nothing is forever and in the Army we know that, people PCS or get reassigned all the time so we just wait it out a few months. My time in recruiting did affect how I respond to abusive leaders, I no longer tolerated them, I dealt with them head on which affected my career in some ways but I always took care of my men and ignored stupid instructions they told me since I knew I could easily fix the issue for the men. I hope Sobel finally wised up and started acting like a decent human being with his subordinates but who knows, I’d have to hear from a few of the men who worked with him through the years/decades. Never underestimate someone’s ability to hate you, some of us are heavily influenced to think certain ways and not just like how Mr. Sobel was, there’s many others. United we stand means at every level but today that doesn’t seem to matter as liberalism has taken over our leaders at all levels, thankfully the Infantry is still non-liberal and the average IQ of a Grunt is around 120 today so maybe that has something to do with that.
Concerning your wondering about Sobel's future, I'm not sure if you're ready to read this, but Herbert Sobel had a bit of a tough time after the war. He ended up shooting himself in the head in a botched suicide attempt in 1970. The act rendered him blind from then on. He was sent to a veterans hospital shortly afterwards, where he "lived" until Sept. 30th, 1987 - dying of neglect and malnutrition. During the war however, he did accomplish his fair share for the war effort. After leaving Easy company, he supervised the successful training of over 500 essential personnel up until D-Day. He jumped with the rest of Airborne on D-day, and is noted for assembling a few men immediately after landing, and destroying a German machinegun nest with hand grenades. He spent the rest of the war in various staff positions with the 506th.
The thing to remember is the TV shower is not very good at portraying the real Sobel he's shown as incompetent and a coward almost. The real Sobel did make the jump on D-Day and received a Bronze Star for his actions that day. Also immediately after landing he assembled a squad and managed to destroy a machine gun nest. Whatever he was he was no coward.
I love BoB but they got other basic things wrong. E.g. Private Blythe didn't die shortly after going home, he died in the 60s. How did they not check that properly?
@@MrBannystarthe author Stephen Ambrose was known for not throughly researching first hand accounts. Had took the second hand knowledge from one person and went with it.
@@lancemangham997 One Ambrose failed to do proper research. Two it's based on what these guys wrote during the war and a lot of Sobel's portrayal was how his troops felt about him during the war. they didn't realize till years later that he was actually giving them the skills that helped then survive and succeed in combat.
@@walterharris9068agreed. Many of the men, in hindsight, did give Sobel credit for their success. Sounds like a terrible leader, but a successful trainer. Think of GSgt Hartman in Full Metal Jacket. Hard to say how that fictional crew would follow Hartman(and granted, we didn’t see simulated combat in the movie), but he was a great trainer. In BoB, Sobel was completely useless in simulated combat, but he sure as hell built character. I think a lot of people miss that part. Most people will hate the guy that, in the end, teaches you so much. I’ve never been military, but some of my greatest teachers have been the hardest teachers. Sobel seems to be a great teacher, but a horrible leader. You’d be silly to think that Winters didn’t learn from Sobel too.
Part of the issue that Sobel had, which isn't really covered by... well most anyone, is that Sobel was VERY NEW to command. When training started in Toccoa, Sobel was a newly promoted first lieutenant, while Winters was a second lieutenant. Sobel had only just recently graduated from officer training school, and prior to that had no real world experience in management, much less combat. The movie moves things forward some, but Sobel didn't really get promoted to Captain until Easy company reached Britain. When Winters was promoted to first lieutenant back in Toccoa, it meant that he and Sobel were the same rank, though Sobel was his senior by about six months. Reportedly, this grated on Sobel's nerves, and started much of the conflict between the two, as Sobel didn't seem to feel that Winters deserved the promotion, and may have worried that Winters would undermine what little power Sobel had over the men. As a person, looking through his military history, we see that Sobel was very much out of his element when it came to command; and Colonel Sink was well aware of this. However, at the time prior to the lead up to D-Day, Sink couldn't really do that much about it. There weren't any real good options at the time, and furthermore, though Sobel was causing problems with the men, he wasn't doing anything that warranted him being removed from command. However colonel Sink also wasn't blind. He could see the growing problems between the men and Sobel, and recognized that while Sobel may be good at training, he wasn't yet fit for front line duty. So when an opportunity presented itself, Sink quietly used the 'mutiny' and the 'court martial' as an excuse to move Sobel away from front line combat, and into a new role where he would be training non combatants. That let a new commanding officer take over, one better suited with more experience, while it allowed Sobel more time to train and learn the nuances of command. Winters himself did note that he had a deep seated dislike of Sobel himself, though he wouldn't go so far as to say he absolutely hated the man. He did recognize that Sobel's training regimen had saved his soldiers many times over; but at the same time he often stated that he felt that Sobel would take things too far. Winters once stated that he believed that the fault didn't lay with Sobel himself, but with the Army, who took a green lieutenant and put him in command of a full company of young men, without any real specific guidelines about what he should, or should not do with the training. He also argued that the Army, though desperate for soldiers, should have taken more time in assessing the ability of those chose to lead others, and pointed to Sobel and other flawed officers as a perfect example of why such care should have been taken. In the end, the whole feud really boils down to the simple fact that Sobel didn't know what he was doing, and wasn't brave enough to step up to his men and admit it or to ask for help from his subordinates. Rather, like the stereotypical "90 day wonder" (slang for an new officer) who believes they know everything and can do no wrong, Sobel came into command with this over inflated ego regarding everything, and refused to ever admit when he had made a mistake, regardless of how slight or great it may have been.
Sink definitely knew, because every one of those training lanes he failed wad reported to him. Now a days if a company did that bad they flat out wouldn't be certified for deployment
Here’s the thing though. Sobel was clearly lying in order to punish and demean Winters. And I think that’s what pushed Winters over the edge. Sobel making up offenses in order to entrap Winters is beyond the pale and shows that he is the worst type of leader. He was insecure and jealous and felt he had to humiliate and torment those underneath him in order to maintain power. Winters had obvious leadership qualities and Sobel was holding him back intentionally probably out of jealousy and spite because Winters was everything he is not. Sobel went too far and Winters finally stood up to him.
My father, a 1st LT in ww2, said before they went into France they were asked if there were any men they did not trust to be with. These men were somehow moved out of his unit before going into a combate area.
No one should be permitted to be an officer unless they can first flawlessly read field maps. Should be a requirement for OCS and every other entry point.
Another of those leaders who led by example and fairness was Lt. Gen. Hal Moore. Moore is remembered as the lieutenant colonel in command of the 1st Battalion, 7th Cavalry Regiment, at the Battle of Ia Drang in 1965, during the Vietnam War.
Ironic given that Meehan's plane went down, if the sergeants did nothing (and if Winters hadn't arranged that, if that story is true), things might have taken care of themselves and Meehan may have lived in his original company. The sergeants saved Sobel's life.
I have had this discussion before. First off HBO series does not follow the book on this matter. If I remember correctly Sobel attempted that crap two times. Strayer was researching what to do. I have no real proof, but based on many conversations I have had with real Regimental/Brigade commanders over the last few years I have a good idea why Sink finally sent Sobel away. To think Sink is ignorant of the things happening in the 506th is to think Sink a fool. Sink became enraged at the Easy NCOs and was ready to line them up! I really don't think the NCO's actions did anything but remind Sink he had to take action. So in all honesty had Sobel jumped that night as CO of Easy I seriously doubt Winters would have even been in Easy. However, everything being equal Sink's actions did save Sobel's life. Another thing I have discussed about Sobel is what would have happened had Sobel been Easy commander and survived to take a command on the ground. I forgot how far off-target they were. Sobel had dismal map reading skills at best. What would have happened at Brecourt Manor? Would those big guns have been destroyed? How many D-day landing troops saved by taking those big guns out might not have been saved?
Thank you. I have been arguing for years that Sobel was exactly as portrayed. People say he was misunderstood. His son (from a broken marriage) claimed he only did things to toughen the men up. BS. He was a sadistic, egomaniacal ahole, as depicted in his letters home. His training methods were intended to punish the men at every turn, a small man with a little power run amuck. It was a happy accident that they became tough and disciplined despite Sobel's efforts to break them. In fact, Sobel attempted to have Winters court-martialed twice, both failed, the second resulted in the insubordination of the non-commissioned officers, and his transfer.. 😊😊👍👍
Herbert Sobel parachuted into Normandy with the 101st for the D-Day invasion. He was a better soldier than I'll ever be. His memory deserves our gratitude and respect. His hard-nosed approach to training at Toccoa is grudgingly acknowledged as a major contribution to Easy Company's success in Normandy and Bastogne. The rest of the 101st that trained at Toccoa reported that Sobel had terrible combat instincts and was incompetent at orienteering. (That's a fair criticism, and not personal.) But even worse than his incompetence at soldiering was his poor instinct at leading. Sobel wanted to tear down Winters and others, to make himself look better by comparison. When he ordered Winters to "find" infractions against the enlisted men (because their being late from the Friday night march was "making [Sobel] look bad"), that order stuck with Winters when Sobel later brought this obviously trumped-up charge of missed latrine inspection, to deflect and distract from Sobel's own devastating failures in field training. Winters handled the situation well, although I think he also took it personally against Sobel. It would have been hard for anyone not to. In the end, Sobel had a role to play in serving his country. It wasn't the role that he, or Winters, or Ambrose, or BoB fans in general, thought it SHOULD have been. But it was a valid role nonetheless.
These recent revisionist views of Sobel are a pathetic white-washing and sugarcoating of his toxic sadism, gross ineptitude, and complete ineffectiveness as a Soldier training for war. Sobel deserves nothing but contempt and ridicule for being one of the most toxic and ineffective officers to have served in the US Army. When Stephen Ambrose interviewed the men of Easy in the mid to late 1980s, their views on Sobel were consistent and unified: In spite of Sobel, NOT because, they persevered to become a cohesive and highly proficient combat unit, by enduring two years of petty bullshit, blatant tyranny, and fabricated drama that Sobel and his lapdog 1SG Evans dished out daily to Easy Company from 1942 to 1944. Further, the Easy men's deep hatred and rage against Sobel led them to conspire against him at all times, and to plan to kill him themselves in combat if he was still Company Commander on D-Day. There was NO respect or tolerance whatsoever for Sobel, and they would rather personally kill him upon landing in Normandy, rather than allow him to get anyone killed in combat due to his deep arrogance and sheer ineptitude as a Soldier and "leader". So the stark reality is that Sobel's sick toxicity, deep arrogance, and chickenshit pettiness resulted in his own men actively working against him, to the extreme levels that they would resign their NCO ranks (in the 1944 Easy Co. NCO mutiny), or kill him in combat on D-Day. That is the true and lasting legacy of Sobel the toxic leader, not the empty and false theory that he is deserving of gratitude or respect.
@@alexvillalva1832I explicitly criticized his poor leadership and incompetence. It is dishonest is to call that “whitewashing and sugarcoating”. Ambrose quoted a member of Easy Company in Band of Brothers, saying, “Sobel *made* Easy Company” (emphasis in original). And Ambrose opened his description of the assault on Brecourt Manor by crediting Sobel for preparing them for that monumental feat. So no, my view is not “revisionist.”
@@alexvillalva1832 there has been a lot of issues with Ambroses work in recent years, including accusations of plagerism, so I would be careful defending him and his books.
Sober strikes me as someone who confused being a leader with being a drill sergeant. He might have made a decent drill sergeant, but being a good drill sergeant does not make you a competent company commander. As for the NCOs being the deciding factor in getting Sobel relieved, I’ve seen this happen time and again. I recently saw this very thing occurs in the past month. For some reason Colonels are more apt to listen to senior NCOs complain of officer misconduct than they are of commissioned officers. I guess the psychology is a recognition that they have a lot to lose if they do voice a complaint that’s unwarranted, so if they do the situation must be really bad. In another instance, several officers told a group of senior NCOs that while they do what they could to flag command that an officer should be relieved, if the NCOs didn’t take specific action nothing would happen. Later this other Colonel admitted it was the complaint from the Senior NCOs that was the decisive factor in this officer getting fired.
In every branch of service, it''s the NCOs that make things work. A good battalion commander understands that they're the ones with their ears to the ground, and that they know the enlisted men better than anyone. He ignores the senior NCOs at his own peril, and his unit's peril.
Sobel recognized Winters as a threat. I don't think Winters "hated" Sobel. I think Winters was just indifferent toward him once he was removed from Eazy. Had Sobel been in command during Normandy, chances are many "Toccoa" men would have been lost. That would have caused deep-seated hatred.
Sobel brought the charges out of spite and jealousy, yet there was something more that rarely gets mentioned. He did it to start a documentation process of Winters as a screw up and discipline case. He was going to build a file. He would continue to do this, inventing infractions, handing out minor punishments, and then produce a thick file documenting Winters as being unfit. Winters knew this, which is why he requested court martial. Another thing that stands out is the issue of the runner...Sobel says he sent a runner. The runner would have to be identified and produced for testimony during trial. Sobel's problem is there was no runner. He expected Winters to take the punishment. Now there was going to be a trial and instead of being at company level, Command was going to be involved, asking questions about what was going on. That's why Sobel looks so worried.
The best leaders started out at the bottom and remembered how it felt, and carried that with them throughout their carriers and lives. They were known as ' mustangs' and generally had the respect of those serving under them.
I think it’s the best TV show of all time , I watched it then rewatched with my teen age son who thought it was awesome then watched again several years later .
I rate Band of Brothers as the best 10 part series i have seen. The way Capt Sobel was in the series. His training was hard yet it brought his company to a level far above others. Yet the Officer in charge must lead by example. Not out of fear as Sobel did. It was sad though the way Herbert Sobel died of Malnutrition at a VA Hospital. 💪🏻🙏🏻✨
I've researched this myself around on the internet. I found one piece where after Sobel tried kill himself but left him blind instead, Winters reaction to the news was, "He couldn't even get that right."
I served with a CWO2 in Desert Shield and Storm that acted very much like Sobel. The Gunnery Sgt under him wasn't much better. EVERYTHING my shop did was wrong, and rank didn't matter, we were collectively (and constantly) punished for even the most minor of things. Discipline is one thing, but petty vindictiveness is another. Being treated like crap sucks, but this was worse- constant Guard duty for days on end, all sorts of rapid-fire calisthenics (think Boot Camp), tearing our shop apart and setting everything up again, running EVERYWHERE, digging and redigging fighting holes... the list of BS punishment tasks goes on, and NONE of it was actual training. I was physically in great shape, but my morale was in the shitter. We were yelled at for damn near anything. I HATED those two. I respected their ranks, but HATED the men holding those ranks. It got so bad other sections and platoons started to notice. I'm glad the CO actually paid attention to the gripes we had, and I understand some of the other Officers and SNCO's in my unit started reporting about the problems in our shop they kept seeing and hearing about. He pulled both aside (seperately, of course) and went to town. I later heard a rumor that the CO loudly reminded them that abusing your Marines is beyond ridiculous for any reason, and that we were ARMED. I hope it's true. I guess the ass chewing worked... they both backed WAAAY off and started treating us like Marines, not recruits. I guess they couldn't transfer them out, so they stayed with us. Watching Schwimmer's portrayal of Sobel, and reading Ambrose's book, reminded me of how crappy these supposed professionals treated me. I've strived to do exactly the opposite since. I'm not sure anybody will read this, but I'm glad I had the opportunity to get it off my chest. Thanks, Identities of WW2.
Schwimmer did a fine job with a complex character. Sobel was no villain, just a man with debilitating flaws. I believe Col. Sink made the best of it, protecting the men while finding Sobel a responsible position that better suited him.
Sobel got drug by the history books, and died a horrible death he didn't deserve. Thank you for your service, Sobel. I hope you found some peace in death.
Ambrose has a lot to answer for with his book, and the subsequent show, yes the men hated Sobel, but most if not all of the men of Easy Company who went through training with the man atribute even if grugingly that they survived the war becasue of him. Lets also not forget that Sobel jumped into Normandy also and immediately after landing, he assembled four men and destroyed a German machine gun nest with grenades before joining the rest of the division near Carentan.
Sobel is a great example of why ALL officers should start out as privates. Some of the best officers I ever knew were prior enlisted. Some of the worst officers I served with were 90 day wonders. A college degree does not make you a leader or an officer.
BoB was a great series , but it was a drama not a documentary . All dramas need conflict hence the running feud between the martinet Capt. Sobel and the modest and competent Lt. Winters . To get a true picture of the men of Easy Company there are a number of good books that go way beyond the book and series BoB . Anything by Marcus Brotherton is good and David Webster's memoir ' Parachute Infantry ' is a must read . About 2/3 of the series is based on Webster's memoirs . That being said even with it's flaws BoB was a watershed moment in the portrayal of WW 2 on the small screen and a fine tribute and memorial to all of the real soldiers it portrayed .
Very true. Im about to do a video on Janovek who was killed at the end of BOB in the truck crash. Webster was closer to Janovek than anyone else and wrote a detailed account about the incident in his book.
It is tragically ironic that Sobel chose to lead in a manner that closely resembled the actions and attitudes of the enemy that his men and country had to face.
If I recall, Winters does give a nod to Sobel in his book, saying Easy was the Company “created by Sobel”. I always wondered if the voice-trick fence-cutting scene was real, as it sounds like a story the men would have wanted to do if they could.
Yes it probably happened. Tipper, his runner, mentioned that he would deliberately mess with Sobel's maps in the hopes that he would look incompetent and get transferred.
If Sobel was still in command on D-Day he most likely would have been killed instead of LT. Meehan who went down when the C-47 carrying the HQs element crashed .
Sobel may have been a relatively good trainer instilling discipline BUT he was not good at leading Soldiers into Combat according to the story about Easy Company during WW2. He was also unnecessarily strict and power drunk! No wonder men of the Easy Company disliked him.
He would, I believe, have had no respect for DTrump. Of President Biden he may feel that at 80 he is too old. But hey, this just my opinion and I could be totally wrong.
This question of leadership NEEDS some context its not enough to judge these two men on what the MEDIA says both demonized and lionized by both sides. This video is about military history. So we use Military history who was the more decisive leader in a military situation. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-CxaY6v7Lduo.html This is the Story of the battle of Al Qasam when 500 Syria infantry Plus a huge amount of Wagner mercenaries threated a base full of US Special forces, Who after much negotiation with MOSCOW proceeded to POUND these mutts into the ground. the survivors getting medals for surviving one of the largest massive airstrikes in US history, from B-52 bombers to F-22 Raprtors dropping new laser guided weapons to the flight of apache gunships, to the wrath of MLRS to 777 Artlierry, to Javelin Missiles. if you did indept research int his battle. After this conflict The Russians didn't dare to confront US forces in Syria and would not touch Ukraine for another few years. Spoiler alert. I WAS NOT Barack Obama who let Putin invade UKRAINE in 2014 or Joe Biden whom the Russians invaded Ukraine under his watch. So you can guess who was on watch. So before answering me with politically slanted responses do your research or be prepared to be spanked badly with receipts.
He would have a far greater understanding of Trump and like and dislike. His distain for Biden would border on what he felt against the Nazis as the Democrats repeatedly act like a socialist government. To even think otherwise is to misunderstand completely what men like that were and what we have now. Democrats are so damn close to communist and Nazis. It’s sickening.
Sobel was psychotic and his illness progressed more as he aged. He tried committing suicide in 1970, was blinded and died in a veterans hospital 17 years later. I pray God has mercy on him.
Court Martialing a junior officer for failing to inspect a toilet really says it. Especially has Winters was given a countermanding order by the Battalions commanding Officer which superseded Sobel's authority. I get Sobel was a small petty little man, but this was just stupid.
I'm a twenty year army veteran with four years in the 82nd Abn 504 PIR myself... As an infantry leader. I'll tell you something about almost ALL soldiers: They are fairly immature. Young full of testosterone... Give him a snappy looking uniform... Give him training, some rank and a paycheck and a gun... Put him in charge of others for the first time in his life... It goes to his head. Most anyway. Give them a cause, Put them in with a whole bunch of other people dressed in the same way and they feel like they are morally untouchable ... And what you get is predictable. Look at the faces of world war 2 soldiers, particularly the german ones - very proud in that sharp uniform with medals and ribbons. But the Americans in British were the same if not to a lesser extent. But they are all immature in the sense that they're barely out of their teen years if even that. You gotta keep a real perspective on it.
I think you have it right, in the British Army of the 1980s and 1990s there were major issues of bullying from junior NCOs towards junior soldiers, especially recruits which culminated in several recruits taking their lives. Poor leadership would have accounted for it not being checked but Lance Corporals and Corporals in their early 20s given a lot of power inevitably went straight to their heads, senior NCOs and officers were doing nothing to keep a lid on it.
Not so IME, retired Aussie Vet here with 37 years service, including Airborne units. I can't comment on your unit and experience, but I can say that the scenario you outlined has no resemblance to anything I saw and experienced.
Sobel had the ability to train troops but not lead them. There probably have been many over the years who had the same professional limitations. The series told the story to produce the most dramatic impact to the viewers - the truth may have been manipulated. I have read that Winters did not like Sobel personally. Winters took the opportunity to tarnish a man's reputation 14 years after the man's death.
Your last 2 sentences reminds me that Mark Twain said "there comes a time in your life when you read the obituaries and run across a name that puts a slight smile on your face"........I agree.
I get Sobel at Airborne School. You can always think of one more thing. But with the petty BS, it starts a rift, Command is not going to say much about one rift, but 10, 15 etc. Someone is going to say WTF is going on. Also, if you cannot lead a simple mission, with no real bullets, you are what we use to call a tin soldier. Total BS. I had one as a 1SG, who claimed he wanted combat, but somehow it missed him. REALLY? He was good at the rug dance and butt kissing. Back to Sobel, if it was true, he could not read a compass and map? WTF. It was a blessing he was taken out of Easy Company.
Captain sober received the bronze star with v for valor. Many of the men in the company credit his hard training with their survival. He was a good husband and father. He died alone and blind after a suicide attempt in an Assisted living facility.
In 1970, Sobel shot himself in the head with a small-caliber pistol in an attempted suicide. The bullet entered his left temple, severing his optic nerves and rendering him blind. Soon afterward, he began living at a Veterans Administration assisted-living facility in Waukegan, Illinois, where he died on September 30, 1987; the death certificate listed malnutrition as the cause of death. No memorial service was held.
As someone who has never been in the military could your personal items be searched and seized during training? Winters and everyone else who voiced their displeasure must have had some compelling evidence of wrongdoing for Sink to not only remove Sobel but to keep Winters in E Company. I’m sure many commanders would have moved both so that no one wins.
I didn't realize Sobel told his officers they would lead through fear.... I've worked with those managers and thankfully my life wasn't on the line because they were a train crash. (USMC 88-92)
Sobel unwittingly made Easy company a band of brothers. We few, we happy few, we band of brothers For he that sheds his blood with me Shall be my brother Henry V
What was the result of the court martial? Did they actually have a trial? Did Sobel say he called on the phone and Winters say that he didn't have a phone? Did it just quietly go away after Sobel was transferred?
This leaves out something Ambrose noted in his book. Sobel was Jewish and Ambrose noted that the non-coms who rebelled were southerners and from rural areas where antisemitism was widespread and that this played a role in their action. Showing that in the series would have diminished them in modern eyes. It's also worth noting that Sobel was willing to join the paratroops early on and what the show didn't show was that he jumped on D-Day. I don't care how big a screw up someone was, if he parachuted in that day he was a hero.
I made a number of videos on Sobel after this one. Strangely, Ed Shames stated that Sobel was not Jewish (he was Jewish himself). He said that there was a lot of antisemitism in the army back then. Makes you wonder why there was such an outcry when they arrived at Landsberg. It seems reality hit them in the face.
I don't think Sobel was terribly misrepresented by the book or the series. It shows him as a complicated man who was excellent at training men for military service but fell short as a field leader. I think he became petty and bitter as his shortcomings became more evident. He was certainly aware he was being compared unfavorable to Winters, which almost certainly set up the showdown over the latrines.
The Sobel character was very well acted. I served in the military, and we had lots of ar$eh@les like Sobel running around. And quite a few got badly beaten up by the lads when the opportunity arose. A blanket was tossed over the head of the un-fortunate individual. Tied closed at the bottom. And then the beating started. One Corporal who was universally hated, was severely beaten up, and left for dead in a storm drain. He spent 3 weeks in intensive care, and survived. But his military career was over after that. The investigation by the Military Police went no where, no one saw anything, no one heard anything. We rioted on a few occasions, all of us, and we would attack another Unit we called the State Pu$$'s. (The Presidential Guard). The MP's, and ranks would not come anywhere near us while we were tearing up the place. I was in a specialist combat unit, and we had the highest AWOL rate in the Army, and this was from months of S#it from the Officers, and NCO'S. I was very glad for the training, it helped me in a few tight spots later in life. Sobel would have not lasted 5 minutes on the Border, someone would have put a round into him sooner or later.
I have always felt that the way Sobel was portrayed, long after his death and unable to respond, by both Ambrose and Winters is petty. Especially by Ambrose, who never even met that man. But it is a real stain on Winters character. Sobel might have very well been unlikeable, incompetent, and or any of a thousand other things. But, he was a man that did his duty to the best of his ability. To take cheap shots at him should be beneath both Winters, and Ambrose.
I've never met Benedict Arnold. But I (we) know he was a great field general, one of Washington's best, in fact. But he also went on to be the most infamous traitor in this country's history. Should we overlook his later "transgressions" because he's "unable to respond" ?
@@FirstLast-sd4fs It has never been insinuated that Sobel was a traitor, or accused of any other crime for which there is a historical record to judge him by. The portrayal of Sobel is personal. There’s always two sides to every story. Band of Brothers told one side of it. It may be completely accurate, or it may not.
Lot of facts, personal accounts and correspondence back up the portrayal. Filming it differently and whitewashing his character is tantamount to lying. History credits Sobel for preparing his men for the worst…by being the worst. The personal demons that distanced him from his family and led to a failed suicide attempt, lends credibility.
Let's talk about Capt. Sobel, who jumped the men he was with ran in to a German Machine Gun nest, he organized them, and is said to have used Grenades and neutralized the position , I read this statement this past week, he got no one killed except for the Germans, I suppose that he and his men encountered. 8:21
Good soldier's will accept even harsh discipline if they know it is deserved but malicious unnecessary punishments especially if driven by personal animosity will tear the heart out of a unit. I sat disgusted and shocked in a corporal's mess meating where the RSM had just instructed us all to find any reason we could to use the army's new administrative discipline paperwork to prove the unit was complying with the directive. I though not just no but HELL NO remembering my own first discipline issue as a new private where my boss who'd covered my absence from a parade explained exactly what a moron I was offered me a choice I could go visit the CSM and "volunteer" for a weekend guard duty or I could sign discipline paperwork. When I generously volunteered to stand guard that weekend the Sgt major responded with a knowing grin" that's very kind of you private now off the record what did you do dickhead" when I told him he said fair enough now bugger off. The end result I stood by a gate for a few hours and didn't get paperwork added to my record which could have slowed my promotion. Official discipline paperwork only exists to A. Deal with complete idiots who refuse to learn B. Idiots who refuse to play the game and accept their medicine or C. To protect soldiers from bad leaders abusing their power. This was clearly a case of C.
In a later part of this series, you present a much more balanced perspective of Sobel. Everyone should watch those episodes. You acknowledge that all we have is one side to this story. Sobel did not write a memoir. Malarkey’s story that it the event was planned and coordinated by Winter suggests a possible different interpretation. You also, in a later episode give a different interpretation of the salute the rank story that casts Winter in a more petty light. The problem with the series, though I have been attacked for saying this, is that Ambrose wrote history based fiction and drama. The Winters of the series is set up to be the protagonist, the hero. All heros in drama need an antagonist. Real life is more complicated. The real story of Sobel, like Dike, Blithe, Liebgott were altered to serve the narrative. The problem is that Ambrose and Spielberg are so good at story telling that we want to believe that they are real. We want Winters and condemn Sobel. But it ain’t that simple.
Yeah I made this video well before I did the 3 part series on Sobel. That's the problem when you go down the rabbit hole and find a lot of new details. It can make your earlier work somewhat out of date so to speak. The next video in the Wnters series is about the courts-martial in England taken from Winter's writings on the matter.
Sobel gets a pretty bad rap in the movie. Having served just shy of three decades in uniform, I've wondered how I would have done in Sobel's position. He was given command of a new company with less experience and professional schooling than I had the day I took over my first platoon as a n infantry 2LT. Now, add in that there were only 6 pre-mobilization officers and NCO's in the entire regiment. Today, there would be innumerable officers and NCOs around to mentor a Sobel. In those days, he was having to do it as a one man band. Overall, he was probably typical of most WWII citizen officers, and likely did better than most (at least if measuring from the combat results in Normandy). Interesting fact. Winters and Sobel had the same date of rank to Major (early April 1945). This makes me question the scene at the end of the series concerning saluting the rank, not the man.
From what I recall the bit where Winters told Sobel "We salute the rank not the man" was different in real life. I think Winters said that he saw Sobel in a hall or something and that Sobel might have pretended to not know he was behind him. He called out to him and said the "line" to him. Sobel gave a salute without hesitation and even said "Yes Sir!" instead of having to be pushed into reluctantly saluting like in the show.
Major Strayer dismissed this first indictment, but then the next Soebel, not getting the hint, charged Winters again. This time Sink Transferred to Battalion HQ to be in charge of the mess while he figured out what to do, then all the NCO's resigned.
Sobel was wrong. Winters made the correct choice. Rather than submit to the Sobel’s overbearing authority to punish him for a situation he had caused himself Winter’s asked for a trial by Court Martial where the rules of evidence apply and they both would testify in from of a board of senior ranking officers.
Sobel was a very flawed character, but he did make Easy Company what they were. He united a group in their dislike of him, but had he lead them into battle he would have them and himself killed.
Over the last several years there has been talk of replacing some portraits of founding fathers on paper money with other people. If they do, in my opinion, the only two choices should be number 1: Audie Murphy and number 2: Richard Winters.
Leave the Founding Fathers where they are. The Army should name their next piece of heavy ordinance or the next armored assault vehicle after Murphy and a building at Fort Indiantown Gap or West Point after Winters. After all, Dorie Miller got himself a Ford class supercarrier named after him and Bull Halsey got a destroyer.
@@maxwedge5683 My point is I'd rather see a Military member who contributed to helping all Americans rather than someone who will assist some woke political agenda.
Yeah I dont think selfish was a word you could use describing Sobel. He just wanted the best company in the army. He just took things a little far at times it seems.
(former Army Infantry officer) Every story needs a good 'villain'. Sobel was a petty man who wanted to be a great leader of men and resented Winter's natural skills. I'm sure the vendetta was real, but some of Winter's complaints ring hollow. Officers censored enlisted men's letters for military information; they were supposed to self-censor their own letters (so Winter's had no fear of Sobel finding out). Sobel confiscated things the soldiers had STOLEN (part of a Health and Welfare inspection); that was his job. Everyone has their own job; Winters was aggravated that he was doing two jobs (Executive Officer and Platoon Leader) and not being given the title of X.O. - which he should have had as a 1LT and his Platoon Sergeant should have been acting P.L. But it is the X.O.'s job to do all non-combat leadership jobs; including admin paperwork, and supply while in the field. The C.O. is seldom around in garrison; he is meeting with battalion and coordinating for field operations. The C.O. and P.L.'s job is to train for combat; the X.O. and P.S.'s take care of "house-keeping". Sobel trained his men well for combat, but the Army is full of leaders who do well in garrison, and fail in combat. He would have made a good Boot Camp company commander, but never allowed to lead men in combat - losing rank, or even the guard-house - is no threat to men facing death. It is a soldier's right to gripe, and you always gripe up; so Winters complained about his chain-of-command to his family.
Sobel didn't have a feud. He was an excellent training officer, the men however felt, and were justified in thinking, he was not a good field officer, and as they were about to be deployed did not fancy being led to their own slaughter, he was strict and in some cases mean, and it is widely recognised that easy would not have been the unit it was without sobels influence.
He wasn't forgotten by many of the men of Easy C. Some even wrote about him in books. And now of course, since the airing of "Band of Brothers", he is unlikely to be forgotten any time soon.
In B of B only one Court Marshal is shown there were as I understand it another two episodes were the two men clashed. Sink eventually had to act, if only for the good of the Regiment.
Sobel was a flawed man but a hell of a leader. Its not easy to be the bad guy, whose entire unit hates, but he did so for the sake of his unit. Under his leadership, Sobel put a band around those young men and broke them down to so when they did rise they rose as a band of brothers.
