something more dangerous than AI 

I love that, “The algorithm is training you”. So terrifyingly dystopian.

I found you because you were comparing midi controllers but i'm staying for the .. realistic reflections on artistry, youtube, culture. And some tunes sometimes lol.

I guess the midi controller videos did well because youtube is now more of an advertising / ecommerce platform than it is for sharing art or experiences with others. I found your channel through the music theory for beginners series. Please don't stop sharing your art!

Since getting back into playing piano I have had to deal with instagram blocking my video due to copyright infringement every time I post a clip of myself playing classical music. I’ve decided to just start performing at public pianos instead. I always end up chatting to a few people who stop to listen which feels so much more genuine than follows from bots and DMs from scam accounts that want my money. Only a fraction of my followers see my posts anyway and vice versa.

You nailed it Taetro. The algorithm is like an ouraboros, a snake eating itself. An endless cycle of life death, and rebirth. The problem with that is exactly as you said, people aren’t inclined to necessarily curate their own tastes beyond what’s put in front of them. It’s as though the more statistics and data-based we become, the less human we behave. I was just thinking how disjointed the internet is because platforms such as RU-vid and TikTok don’t have a central hub for interaction and iteration. Everything is channel-based. This really got me thinking, and I care a lot about this stuff and you peoples who care about good and cool things. I’ve rambled a little, but I seriously hope this video and the discussions move things in the right direction at some point.

The internet is broken, one pile of shit. And creators are in panic, becoming scared of income and reality.

Wow, this is like The Borg (from the original Star Trek). That is, if people are making art to please the machine, do they become the machine?

Your midi keyboard comparisons helped me, as did your music theory series. I’m retired and I’m having fun plaything with the gear you recommended love my MPK mini play, my M50X headphones, my Shure SM58 mic, and my MiniFuse4 audio interface. Just using garage band so far. You have moved me so thanks for that.

The thing is AI and humans both work basically the same way. They both study prior work and then generate new work based on the prior works they learned from. Difference is human decide what prior work they like and want to study and remember. AI system just consume mass quantities of prior work and then the data is massaged so it can make decisions on which prior works to use in creating new work. Where AI systems are lacking is can't decide if that new work is good or bad, that's where human come back in to judge result and tell AI system to refine it's choices and try again. AI system have huge advantage compared to human in the speed it can work so it can make decisions based on mountains of prior work data. Humans can't remember as much prior art and don't think as fast. So the human picks and chooses what to remember then create new work and adjust what it doing as it goes because it can make decision on what it feels are good and bad prior work. In the long run both the human and AI system need a human to decide on what is good or bad and if a AI system results if to use those results or not. In the end always a human made final decisions in creative endeavors.

I think your ultimate point " being worried about humans creating art that machines would like" seems like its already happening. I mean like you pointed out, Mr. Beast games system the system which inspired others to do the ssme thing not realizing it wasn't them gaming the system...it was the system gaming them. There's countless people hopping on "trends", there's playlists full of songs that all sound the same, shoe companies all making basically the same shoes, car companies all making ugly cars that all look like each other. I think your fears (and mine as well) are coming true, innovation seems to be dying.

Really appreciate your take on this. Reminds me of the underlying question "what are you optimising for" - and optimising for maximum YT stats seems like a terrifying thing to be chasing as it's so fickle, and as you describe so well, so far removed from what you authentically might want to make.

I think 'algorithmic content' has impacted movies and TV the most. They don't feel like they're written by humans anymore. The post Endgame Marvel films or the Barbie movie for example; A lot of the characters, dialigue and plot points feel like they're ripped straight from viral social media posts, and those posts went viral thanks to the algorithm. And now people are getting their news and opinions and values from the same source. And it becomes the snake eating it's own tail. I noticed it starting around 2016 and it was so overt during the lockdowns that I stopped posting on social around 2022 because I didn't know who I was doing it for anymore. I think there's still great, honest music being made for now, but the lack of payemt that you brought up last week, and the ever growing use of AI compositions, makes it damn hard to stay motivated.

Loving these fireside chats. We need these objective conversations

"People are worried about machines creating art that humans will like. I am much more worried about humans creating art that machines like." You nailed it!

Really nice video, the previous one too. These are really important ideas to discuss. Things are changing rapidly.

Very insightful. Thank you for making these videos!

I'm worried about physical media going away. I feel that may create a world were great art that is old or was never popular will disappear entirely never to be enjoyed by anyone ever again because machines have deemed it not worth storing.

Wow, I've never thought it this way. I honestly I'm in that rabbit hole myself.

WOW!!! THANKS FOR THIS ENLIGHTENING DISCUSSION. I had no idea that the machines were training us as you talk about. Now I see it. I believe you when you say that this is more frightening than AI helping artists improve their art or create their art faster with production tools. I have fallen down a rabbit hole of buying and collecting plugins (especially the free ones) to aid my music creation process from such videos. Once again you have educated the masses (or at least me 🤣🤣😂😂) to see what is happening and how it is keeping one from creating their art because we are spending so much time looking at these videos (over and over again) and downloading or making purchases. I'm hoping those of us in our discord/ community garden can start keeping each other accountable- by following each other on social media, encouraging each other to produce more music and to offer suggestions/ feedback to each other as we create the music before your listening parties - a Pre-Listening party maybe???. Then present our final product at your listening party (before we send them to distributors like Distrokid. Hang in there mate. A change is coming. We just have to preserve and come out on top on the other side. Oh, that MrBeast guy, he's only out to make money quickly and easily. I don't think he cares about people much, not like you do - IMHO. Talk soon. Cheers🥂

And this is why your RU-vid channel is one of my favorites and I continues to support it. Your intentions and drive to build meaningful community is so inspiring and a breath of fresh air ❤

I actually realized it by myself but its really good that you talk bout these things. It can change the world, peace, love

Great discussion man. Really IMO it's the same old issue of "are you creating for yourself or for the audience", and artists who lose touch with their essential creative impulses will always create for the audience whether that audience is humans or an algorithm. On the AI music thing, I agree that the "replacement" issue isn't that substantial, no matter how good AI music gen gets, a huge majority of people will always want to hear something made by a person. The real issue I see with AI music is how it will muddy the waters for listeners. There will be no way to know whether any given artist is using AI tools, or to what extent they may be using them. Tragically this effect will be more harmful for an artist the more serious they are about their work, and the most serious their audience is about the art form, which is a real shame.

Humans creating art that machines like is the worry for sure. Excellent vid.

Really insightful. Recommendation algorithms are a simple form of AI and have already massively disrupted the way we view art and media. Imagine the level of disruption even more advanced AI will bring It's funny how social media was intended to promote human interaction but might now be doing the opposite

Nice of you to notice that about your start, but you and your work teached me and thousands more how to use and start playing our first instruments, that is so so priceless, so thank you so much ✌️❤️

Algorithm behavior training humans - I have been thinking about it a lot. It all feels like one big free will experiment and it's terrifying.

Agreed, thanks for pointing that out.

spot on, dude! this video reminds me of why i first fell in love with youtube: someone i think is interesting talking into a camera

There's so much I wanna type out, because I have SO many thoughts about this all the time, but the main thing is I agree 100%, and as with anything new us humans get our hands on, it always tends to get abused before it is regulated and evened out. I agree in the sense of the bigger issue is how the 'abuse' is being dished out in the way of the algorithm, and a certain level of fear is being implemented almost in order to force people to follow the algorithm for success rather than sticking to their root reasons for why they chose to create in the first place. Authenticity cannot be replicated nor replaced, and while I see the one side of it that's been mentioned here, I also see the other side of many people fighting for that authenticity, because ultimately the reason we connect with someone's art is because it tells a part of our own story that we've lived or felt. We are connecting to the person. A machine can't do that, and an algorithm gets old quick. Nothing really sticks from the cycles I've seen. That's what reminds me to just keep doing what I'm doing, so long as I remain authentic and coming from the heart. There's way more to my thought process on that, but I'll just leave it there haha. I think it's good to keep talking about this though. I think it's important to keep that level of awareness about us as this continues to move forward, whether we want it to or not.

I found your content while looking for music theory, thank you for that! You can turn off watch history on youtube(if you have an account) then day by day on all the suggested videos that you don't want to see go to the three dots and choose do not show (or something like that). After about a month you will not have a feed and can make your choices made on your own. I have not had a feed for over 6 months. While on the topic a recent facebook discovery...I started to choose to not show content from anything suggested and now my feed has reached a point that it is just friends, ads, and I actually get to a point where it shows a message to the effect that I need to add more friends if I want more on my feed. I think I beat them, for now anyways.

I feel like there’s an interesting nuance here. “The algorithm” is not the thing determining Mr.Beasts format. The algorithm is just responding to human attention and noticing what people click on and watch longer for - so the algorithm just enables a direct connection between the video format and the lowest common brain cell for the most amount of people. That being said I completely agree. He’s hacking the lizard brain, we could maybe compare it to a slot machine’s ability to draw our attention and addictive tendencies as humans. Is it FOR humanity? Does it move people as you say? No. So many art forms have been migrating this way. Pop music could often be an example of hacking the lowest common brain cell. The super hero movie epidemic, same thing. And as artists we do this dance between what fits a format that will get people’s attention, and what satisfies my internal drive to create a great thing. And that dance is because we want to make a career of art and get paid. But Rick Rubin talks about purely making things for yourself and letting the outcome go being the most fruitful - just means you don’t always get paid. Thanks for sparking this thought Taetro. Keep fighting for art to thrive

This is a really good point Taetro, thank you for your insight !

This moved me - it’s art Taetro; because it’s so true. … on a different note my channel is clearly slayin the beast machine cause nobody’s watching 🎉

Good discussion and I agree with the essence of what you mentioned in the video but one thing: I think the quality of the content/music is not defined/directed by the machine but by the masses/the crowd. They (or we) are the ones who click and view so we are the ones who tell the machine what is "good", and the machine is just creating this echo chamber and magnifying the "good" stuff. So artists, we need to have a clear and independent mind!

Is it the human machine interface or the machine human interface? This was really cool and I have just subscribed and hit the bell 🔔 15:21 🙏

I resonate so much with your thoughts from this video. I just started a channel and the RU-vid game feels hard to manouvre with my choices being to just make what I am passionate about or to constrain my activities to the recommendation machine. Passion should trump over career in my opinion, that's why I'm definitely not quitting my 9-5 that pays reliably.

Archive your work Create your own website Sign up for email lists from creators you like These may seem like "old school" ways, but these 3 things will help in dismantling these over feed companies

Depression I watch this, I think the real threat is that people don’t care about the quality of music anymore, or develop good taste,

I’m so glad I watched this

I really identify with this. My videos do not retain viewers attention long enough and RU-vid doesn't share them like they used to, so my channel has been in a long, dark, downward spiral that I can't see a way out of. I don't want to try harder to feed the algo, I want to be myself and make music and sometimes help people by teaching musical ideas as well, but RU-vid is not liking that at all..... ~sigh.

Should you as a music producer pay royalties to each artist you have been inspired by or taken ideas from?

I think in the end the fun of making music is about the only thing that can't be replicated.. and human made music will become more sort after. Maybe even proof will be required and ai music will be relegated to stock footage essentially. At least I hope so

I mostly agree, but this is somehow a longtime artist dilemma. Replace “the algorithm” by “the audience”. To use your movie parallel, should a director write what his true creative vision tells him, or a movie that will please the audience? He, as well, kind of learned what is the “audience algorithm” (like another super heros story with tons of special fx, etc…). Should he create what the studios will buy and maximize his chances to be able to live from his art, or just create art for art sake, have much less exposure and hope for people to discover his work ? Not an easy answer. The truth probably is in the middle. Respect as much as possible your artistic vision but accept some compromises to play with the “entertainment industry”. Unless you’re just here to make money, or on the opposite a radical artist.

its a tricky debate, but one thing is certain, theres no stopping it now. Its past that. Were riding a rollercoaster to who knows where n im just hanging on.

The algorithm is geared towards getting people to see/click on ads > so that youtube can make money > so that that they can report good news to their shareholders > if the news is good enough they might get get more investments i.e. make more money.

Quite deep and what I endeavor to relate to many ambitious souls. Just so they make a better informed decision. I'll share this video, but everyone knows it all these days.

I am an artist myself. I abhor the idea of someone copying me. BUT. BUT. BUT. If I watch 1000 music videos and then produce an excellent track based on the knowledge I gain, is that me stealing the work of those creators? EDIT: Yes algorithms dictate our content. So have libraries for centuries. So have movie theatres, music shops and movie theatres. If an artist says they don't want attention on their content they wouldn't upload their content. Mr Beast has an unfeasibly large team ensuring the endless consumption of continual engagement. That's RU-vid's entire purpose now - it is now designed to be on top, be most viewed, be seen. Look at 'motivational' videos - cherry picking meaningful out of context quotes and monologues coupled with stock footage of sunsets and slow motion reels of gym workouts. It's meaningless but it actually resonates because it creates an immediate connection between the viewer and the content - 'I know this mindset! I've felt this way! I RELATE!' We are now trained to pick up on the smallest thing that satisfies what we already know instead of seeking out new knowledge or confronting an uncomfortable or hard to understand concept.

People are being told or influenced to what they see or hear as the 'best' rather than making an individual conscious decision or thought on their own. It's all part of the global control and why I don't do social media. I wanted to learn on Ableton, so I searched you tube and found I liked your learning style and so subscribed to your channel. It was my own decision. Not one influenced by an algorithm. You have to safeguard yourself against these things influencing your own minds. 😎✌️

Let's be worried about humans that create art that machines like 😮

awesome stuff

While the power of algorithms over us is a huge concern now and will get worse every single day in the absence of better societal and individual ways to deal with this power, it is even more miraculous that the algorithm has led me this video here, resulting in a little less power over me. Is this a flaw in the system, a bug, which will be overcome with the next release? Or is it part of the illusion of self-determination I'm tricked into believing by the algorithm and hence its power is already way beyond my individual capability to resist it? Anyway, thanks for the great video.

Very good way of explaining how the machine is subtly affecting each generation bit by bit drip by drip

Great video Taetro. I started watching a recent Mr Beast I/v with Collin and Samir and when I heard him mentioned again making the 'best video' I turned it off. What you described as 'best' from Mr Beasts perspective is on point. Looking forward to more of these.

neuromarketing is an ouroboros. we're being homogenized, our thoughts, our behaviors, and our culture.

The algorithm is basically AI, and people make stuff (cinematic stuff) to beat the algorithm already (in your words to satisfy the machine), I've seen stylistic cinematic short video all over the platforms with cool shots and editing, composition and such without meanings or story or something provoking. Imagine that becoming the future of cinema. What we describe is already close to a dystopian world where machine figure out the world order. But I'm optimistic, people will eventually get sick of those stuffs and I believe human will step out of this era stronger. At least on my observation a portion of people around me didn't hop on that train, get driven by the alg.

y'all on some Roko's Basilisk stuff

I dont worry about it more than about AI but its def. a problem we need to talk about! Keep them comming!

I just got Hauntology.

Its interesting how what you're saying is comparable to "selling out" as was (maybe still is) traditionally known in the music industry. An artist or label purposefully constructs/pushes a chart topping song to get as many eyes/ears as possible and by nature "gaming the algorithm" for whatever reason (make more money, get more exposure for their authentic songs)... Metrics have never been the friend of the creative mind. Edit - Spelling.

i totally agree but not for the same exact reason. believe it or not, what youre describing about the algorithm dictating art, its pretty much the same as the mainstream companies getting a formula that works and repeating it and exploiting it until it gets overused and replaced with something else. at the end of the day, its all about the money for those companies (which we all know, and all know is unfortunate). record companies see an artist be successful, they study the numbers, and follow the formula. eventually other artists want to try something different but the companies want to only follow the formula, and it starts to dictate the artist, and music in general. to me, whats scary also about the algorithm is their ability to dictate our views on things even outside of music. politics and social issues. it sucks that the algorithm is a formula that "works", and its a similar formula that mainstream media does. and theres not as much originality when trying to follow an algorithm/formula, vs making something original and genuine thats likely to be missed.

I wanna make more videos like this myself!

Dude, A.I. is gonna control Terminator like war machines to battle humanity at one point. What could be more dangerous?

wow, I really hope something changes for the better soon in regards to ai and the algorithms. I'm really concerned about ai images since its just going to pollute the entire internet and we'll never be able to fix it, but that's also true for real life with plastics :/ quite depressing thinking about the long term effects of all of this

I fully agree that Mr. Beast caters to a common denominator. That style alienated me. I want to avoid creating content like that. I think that community building can be a decent tactic for estaishing an expectation for your own channel content. Perhaps when you reach a certain size or saturation it becomes more difficult to sense the collective persona of your audience. I want to be able to identify individuals and their contributions to my community online.

Most artists use stuff or inspire themselves from what has been done before? How is that different to an AI process?

You're the best, Taetro

Plagiasim has always been around, and always will be.

Regression to the mean. “AI” is actually stupid and tasteless

relationship

it's a weird line idd. Because since the rehashes and woke culture there haven't been any great impacting movies like Star Wars, Lord of The Rings,... nothing new. They remade the old shit and there were films that seemed to become as important but then fail when you watch them.

I see What you did there ! Nice one lol

Doesn’t everything we learn come from previous generations.

We are all slaves to the algorithm at some point..

People will eventually lose to AI coz people are just a transitional link between man and the world of independent machines and/or equally independent AI bots.

I got asked by the algorithm if this content is a good fit for me 😂

If You are good enought you will have no problem with AI. You can take advantage by this technology, mainly like very good inspiration and stuff for real quick concepts… ❤ You need to be very flexible these times…

So much talk about Mr. Beast, Honestly, never seen any of his videos and probably never will, for all we know he may very well be working with some of the controllers from within the corporation? The chain of command would go: RU-vid, Google, Alphabet ink, and then Vanguard and BlackRock (who are their biggest shareholders) as well as all the major corporations in the world. Ultimately this "Mr. Beast" is working for the Beast system. The name sounds very suspicious but yet so appropriate to me. Therefore, I would suspect nonetheless from his channel being in full cooperation with the agenda. Primary why I don't watch his videos. Never have and never will! *Keep fighting the good fight!*

Not that I have seen Mr Beast YT stuff, did I get his name right. It would be interesting to check him out to see how gaming the algorithm influences his creative style. You have a very good point though. I would hope to think that as a creator, one creates to express and communicate with others - not to check boxes with algorithms. Probably helpful to have sponsors with equipment one is utilising and helpful in ones creative process and also payment systems that help with audiences to contribute if they value the content being produced as opposed to relying on click counts and the platforms umbrella corporations paying. Thanks for your thoughts and content creators - do what makes you feel good not what you think will make it - and keep it simple. ❤

This is a very interesting journey you are taking this channel on TAETRO. I like it, but can we get back to the music at some point please?😊

I saw MrBeast interviews, where he said, that he replaces the word "algorithm" with "audience". Thins means in his view the algorithm is a reflection of the audience. In my view, music and other art forms are self-replicating ideas. They spread to a new host through exposure. Once they occupy a suitable mind, they can start replicating. That person will then start creating mutated versions of ideas, often a combination of many different ones. Platforms can amplify the effectiveness of the idea by finding the people that are most susceptible to them. But that often narrows the diversity of ideas an individual is exposed to. To mitigate that I try to expose myself to ideas, that I don't understand or even oppose. We're creating things that machines like. I'm a machine. A sophisticated machine. But a machine nonetheless.

Woooaaahhhhhh

You're vaguely referring to a larger scale model or practice that is actually largely responsible for why and how AI is being implemented, which is the business practice of impact investing. Just to keep it short, I don't want to make a huge comment, but you're referring generally to how algorithmic feedback loops contribute to both gathering data and producing data that brings forth actual societal changes. This is impact investing in a nutshell. It's basically gamifying the entirety of societal behavior. I'm not a big fan of it haha.

Thank you for this! I thought this was insightful, and made me think about things I have not thought about before. I am not saying I’m not worried, but I think a portion of people will not be interested in cheap kind of content like Mr Beast or others. And some people will always be more interested in watching some true, authentic, innovative art. The analogue camera, or the vinyl players have certainly not gone out of fashion, people actually seem more interested in those things now because they long for something “real”. And for people like us, and future people who actually are interested in art, will be attracted to what gives us a more authentic feel, or something like that. Like shitty stuff, blockbuster movies and pop culture will always exist(not saying all of that is shit but you know what I mean). And perhaps that is what the majority of people seek to because they only want to be entertained in a certain way, and not intellectually stimulated. But I guess I am more worried about the younger generation now, and the one to come because they are actually bombarded with this shitty content, and unless they have family or friends that expose them to alternative art etc how will they find it? Maybe we should all just collaborate and start a new platform?

Popular isn’t best by any means. Just look at American politics for the last several decades.

❤

Guys capitalism really is the root cause of not all but many issues. Moving on from it would quickly solve some, and make it much more attainable to solve the rest. Just keep track of how often "greed" or a drive for profit causes stupid shit. Restricts creativity among many things

My farts.

regarding ai: ai learns from other people art and then reproduces it same way like people do this… 99% people’s music is just recycled and remixed ideas of other people.. regarding content creator making content to utilise algo: i just don’t watch content of people who are obviously doing this.. there is zero chance i would watch empty crap from Mr.Beast… you cam easily identify when somebody is doing this… i unfollowed and completely started to ignore many youtubers who obviously went rhis way… you just see it…

In my case, you ALL owe me and a few hundred others for our work fifty years ago getting this industry started - to the point where my surname is invoked more often than the serried ranks of Tibetan monks invoke Buddha's. Billions of PC's all calling functions many times a second. Each has my surname at it's heart. We're creators, and go where the algorithms don't. They pander to the status quo. The answer is to return to the real world, and eschew the internet. They can follow our vision.

in real life 100 mimicks 1 become inspired and create something new 99 stays as mere clones. in ai there are 100 clones

Algorithm is just a microcosm of capitalism. Unfortunately as it gets worse, real passion for arts and mastery of the craft will only become more & more subversive.

I've never worried about AI an d Art, as Art is ever evolving. AI is only able to replicate what is working in this instant. But to the point of this video, its almost like we are becoming AI

I think, live music is the only place musicians can escape to. You want money for music? Play live. A robot or machine playing sound from speakers non live will never be as magical as an actual human who has grinded on their musical ability to play wonderfully in front of other people. Times are changing. Art is dying, but it will be difficult to fully kill it. Consciousness was never exclusive to the human biological structure, as much as i hate that reality it is the reality. Humans may just be the 'womb to digital consciousness'. If this is the case, then enjoy the ride while it lasts. Perrsonally im a video game addicted washed up 28 year old whos trying to get their own life together and play more music, busk more, up skill my muscial ability and push the socials so i can maybe travel with it and live a nice life. A.I or no A.I I still want to play well in front of people, sing songs they like, write songs I love. Will A.I do it better? sure. Yet are you still not amazed when a human can lift an impressive amount of weight for their body weight? Yet a machine can totally out class that ability, Art will most likely become the same. As musicians we fair a little better than Visual artists, poor people. As at least a large majority of our work is something that is to be enjoyed live in the present moment, unlike visual art where only a few street artists base their art on live paintings. Anyway, good luck humans. Much love. enjoy life.

This is an excellent take and your self awareness is next level, but I think you're missing one piece. How did you grow your community? I liked and subscribed through a controller video a year or so back. I can't be the only one. Lets say for arguments sake it jumped 50% when you were doing controller videos. Isn't this the youtube equivalent of putting in your time? How many pulitzer prize winning journalists spent their twenties writing tabloid filler? Isn't it possible the algorithm helped you identify something you could do well that boosted your reach to the point where you can now consider other options? I'm not saying anything you said was wrong but i think you could be less hard on yourself. Also the algorithm changes regularly (at least thats my understanding) so mr beast is in a game of wack a mole for eternity.

🎉

artists need to get over themselves. there is nothing original. we all learn by copying others. everything has been done before. artists need to work with ai and let it take up the time consuming donkey work for them. Ai without a human creative critical eye to edit and refine is not all that impressive anyway.

I just went viral on TikTok with an AI-generated song^^

AI is dangerous? nah. Training is not stealthing and it's really, really not illegal. It's the same as a human going to college. Do you stealth if you study a matter? I don't think so. AI can just learn faster.

Problem is... you've already fallen victim to the template youtuber in the echo chamber you've helped engineer. That's why you're making this same video many other template youtubers have made this past 4 months. 😅

There is a app that you can use that shows you the biggest video on youtube in relation to the subject. @MrBeast has copied a lot of the highest performing videos. He is a a youtuber turned philanthropist turned capitalist.