Let's talk everything that happened between Sonic Generations and Sonic Generations. Edited by Sam Essig and Scott Wozniak Main Channel: @ScottTheWoz Twitter: / scottthewoz Facebook: / scottthewoz Instagram: / scottthewoz
I like how Frontiers brought back the biblically accurate angel-like bosses with the epic songs while you fight it. Definitely a huge missing piece of the franchise.
I thought that you were joking at first, but no, you're completely right. From Adventure to Unleashed, we fought kaijus and demons. This _is_ a part of the Sonic franchise now.
Generations definitely feel like a high watermark, and I await its re-release next month with the new Shadow content. Yeah, I do feel after Generations things just felt little…underwhelming for lack of a better term when it came to Sonic games. Mania and Frontiers I did like but the rest were either meh, Sonic Boom, or Sonic Forces.
I appreciate unlike Sonic Colors Ultimate, which is the same game but with a mild amount of content added, that they choose to remaster a beloved game but also throw what seems like an entirely new game that we still don't have the full scope of where it is going. it is nice to have some mystery.
Hi, I was a programmer with Headcannon on the version of Sonic 3 & Knuckles included in Sonic Origins. I really prefer to stay low key these days, but I emerge from my cavern to share some thoughts... TL;DR: The internet at large (this video included) mostly refers to the remastered versions of the classic Sonic games as "The Christian Whitehead Versions", despite Simon "Stealth" Thomley (professionally known as Headcannon) contributing just as much. I wish they were called the "Retro Engine Versions" (or similar) to better reflect this fact and the nature of how they were built. I've been working full time under Headcannon for over 5 years now, and in that time Simon has become a close personal friend of mine. That means I'm extremely biased, so keep that in mind as you read this, but I feel compelled to mention that to this day, with this video included, the Retro Engine versions of the classic Sonic games are still ubiquitously referred to as "The Christian Whitehead Versions" despite Simon being heavily involved from the beginning. Sometimes S3K gets lumped in there too, even though that was just Headcannon! Even on CD, Simon contributed in reverse engineering select aspects of the original for Christian to re-implement. He was fully involved in Sonic 1, 2, and Mania. There seems to be a persistent rhetoric (especially on youtube) that Christian alone was responsible for these things and is often hailed as the sole savior of the Sonic franchise. It's an easy assumption to make considering that it was only his name/logo that appeared at boot in all of the mobile releases. I get it, it's easy to latch onto the listed lead developer and it's an easy, uplifting synopsis. It doesn't help that again they're consistently called "The Christian Whitehead Versions", calling them that continues to reinforce the idea. Retro Engine itself was authored by Whitehead, possibly adding further confusion. I'm probably too late and long-winded for this comment to get any traction anyway, but I figure this is a decent opportunity to point out that this is a thing, and has been for well over a decade now. I was honestly expecting that after we/Headcannon worked on S3K, people might start naturally referring to them as the "Retro Engine Versions" but that hasn't happened at all. In short, I guess that's all I'm hoping for; it's a more accurate description of what these versions of these Sonic games are and might help make it more clear that others were involved. This isn't just about Simon either, at least Headcannon gets mentioned _sometimes_, including this video. But it often seems people think he was only involved in Mania, again this video included. The segment about Mania's announcement also frames Mania's other developers as Christian Whitehead's (quote) "little Sonic fan buddies" which feels... Dismissive, I guess? To this day, even when referring to Evening Star, people most often seem to simply leave it at "Christian Whitehead and some of those other guys who worked on Sonic Mania", which is a little disheartening. The others get mentioned far less than Tee Lopes and even Simon/Headcannon do, and are regularly reduced to just "some sonic fans". I guess I'm ironically kind of doing that now, but I think talking about anyone other than who was mentioned in this video is possibly poor etiquette for a comment that reflects only my own opinion. I think part of why I feel the need mention all this is because (as a long time religious Woz viewer) I've always taken Scott as a real stickler for details, he always seems to be pretty on-top of the additional historical/cultural context surrounding games and their development. So it's surprising when Sonic Origins is boiled down to "Christian Whitehead didn't work on this but "a form of" Headcannon did", without clarifying that Simon Thomley essentially _is_ Headcannon and that none of us had anything to do with Origins itself (we effectively just did Sonic 3 & Knuckles in a vacuum). He then says "a lot of fans worked on the versions present in Sonic Origins" which I guess kind of true depending on your definition of "a lot"? Sonic CD was mostly Christian with contributions from Simon. Sonic 1 and 2 was Christian and Simon co-developing. Sonic 3 & knuckles was Simon and 4 others (myself included) contracted under Headcannon for all of the work required to rebuild Sonic 3 (yeah, S3K really was that much more work to rebuild). Maybe he's referring to the ways in which other fans-turned-professionals contributed to origins regarding the music and animations? Unsure, but what I'm getting at is, if Scott is iffy on the details, then I know most others are too. Even in the Headcannon discord, they are often referred to as "The Christian Whitehead Versions". It just bums me out a bit considering this could have been a nice opportunity to be a little more clear about this stuff. To be clear I'm not blaming Scott or anyone, if you don't know you don't know. It's hardly actually talked about, though. So here is me, talking about it. I was not expecting to write nearly this much... Thank you for reading!
It does suck that it worked out that way, I used to get annoyed back in the day seeing countless magazines plastered with Billie Joe Armstrong on his own as if he was the entirety of Green Day.
Thanks for leaving this comment. I remember shortly after origins came out, Simon had made a twitter thread addressing the general issues people had with origins and especially stuff with the 3&K version headcannon developed like the music changes, the top speed increase, etc. It is kinda weird that a lot of fans (that are very much entrenched in fan discourse) still refer to origins!3&K as a "Whitehead" version even after the development headaches were brough to light and made its rounds in the fanbase, and your comment reminded me that calling them the Whitehead versions diminishes all the work that other dedicated fans put into these versions, even when I knew most of the information about these games' development. From now on, I, at least, am going to start referring to them as the retro engine ports. It's not just respectful, it's also more accurate.
Scott doesn't always have all of the details on hand all the time. he does try, but some of his older videos like his Localization one have various errors in it, like the one about Fire Emblem Fates which took the blind internet accusation of gay conversion therapy literally when the actual unlocalized text said something else. Not to say he isn't trying harder now that he has a crew to direct when making his Woz vids, but it's something to keep in mind.
That's more a symptom of "classic" Sonic fans more than anything. The ones who see the 2000s era as "the dark ages", who like Sonic not because it's Sonic, but because whining about Sonic got them famous. So they don't really care enough about the series to do it justice, and instead farm content for clicks. Christian Whitehead gets said clicks.
@@WSBM14sonic team isn’t the issue lol it’s the higher ups at sega when Sonic team is able to have time to do stuff we get things like Sonic x shadow generations
After Generations the Sonic franchise felt kinda weird. It felt like the devs behind the Sonic series didn’t know how to use Sonic in quality ways. While we did get some real bangers (Mania I’m looking at you!), that wasn’t until VERY late 2010’s. I’m glad the series has taken a better turn now, albeit it’s been a little slow
seeing sonic as a franchise get a part of its soul back after frontiers makes me exponentially happy, hoping for more shadow stuff from sega in the future : )
The Sonic post generations era of the franchise was certainly a fascinating time to go through with its various high and lows, and even though sonic is in a better and more consistent place during the post move era, I’ll still appreciate the memorable moments that stem from the post generations era .
Still never understood the hate for Lost World but I guess that’s me. I enjoyed it but I was also much younger and played it after Colors so maybe that’s why. I know it doesn’t play like previous Sonic games but I think that’s why I liked it.
It's just a bit Mid, it's not BAD or anything it's just not the kinda game people (including me) really wanted after Generations. That and the wisps are ??? after Colors' ending and the parcour was underutilized. Just a 6.5/10 game overall, not the 2-3/10 people seem to think it is
@@JAM609 Fun Fact: In Lost World you can use the run button to make the spin dash last longer and you can jump while in spin dash mode. The downside is that you have less control in spin dash, so it requires alot of practice to master.
@@orangeslash1667 Yes, using spin dash that way was pretty fun! That's why the first desert stage is my favorite one from that game because of the ramps letting you cover HUGE distance with a well timed Spin Dash. Too bad the rest of the stages are narrow and don't really open up as much as the desert stage. I'm glad the spin dash from Frontiers fully capitalizes on that, it's now my favorite play style of Sonic.
@@orangeslash1667 I know, but you exit ball form if you double jump. Spin dashing can’t help when you have to bounce on clouds for 3 minutes at a time. Or when you’re a snowball. I don’t like the enemies where using a homing attack gets you hurt when you couldn’t have known you needed the kick. The homing attack kills all your speed and you can’t jump afterwards
Brand accounts trying to be funny on social media will forever be cringe. Some random ass person got hired to post cookie cutter cynical one liners on their page. OMG SO HILARIOUS AND RELATABLE
Sonic taking itself seriously is the best for everyone. Hardcore fans get a fun adventure worth paying attention to, and people who dont get it at least get a laugh. It's like Kingdom Hearts in that way. When the game tries too hard to make fun of itself in an ironic fashion, it devalues the fans, and the tongue in cheek humor isnt as funny for someone who just wants to point and laugh at sonic taking himself seriously.
how come Scott completely skipped the final DLC for Frontiers? they completely retconned the ending of Frontiers and added 3 other characters, seems odd he skipped it....
52:56 Complaining the Sonic Mania art book is too BIG and that it should've been smaller to fit in the case... Come on man I want my art books as big as posible, what are you doing
Sonic showed everyone that gamers might not know what they want (especially when it comes to Sonic) but gaming journalists definitely don’t know or care what gamers want
If I had a nickel for every time a Sonic game was praised for having the best gameplay in years, and being told that the sequel needs to "do the same thing but with new level themes", only for said sequel to never materialize, I'd have two nickels, which isn't a lot but it's fucking tragic it happened twice.
@@sometf2player752 Mania is the better game IMO but I think Frontiers and the movies created more new fans as opposed to Mania which was for existing and lapsed ones. Doesn't help that any goodwill it garnered for the franchise was kneecaped a couple months later with Forces.
@@SnekEater yeah meanwhile with the movie it was followed up with frontiers which was well received and then Sonic x shadow generations which probably has the most positive opinions I’ve ever seen for a new Sonic game
Mania had people going "wow remember that Sonic could be good hehehehe LOL BIG THE CAT" for a while, the Movie and Frontiers (yes combined) made SEGA take the franchise more seriously which is how we ended up in the current state where the current marketing push is popping the hell off
I do not agree with your update 3 and superstars takes but hey, this video is still very well edited and I could understand most of your other points and even appreciate some discussions you brought up, I'm not going to start crying over a difference in opinion
‘Mighty and Ray were cool additions because they were really obscure characters from Sonic’s past’ So obscure I thought they were original characters until now.
Scott describing the Sonic Boom games as licensed games based on a TV show as opposed to Sonic Games puts all of them into context in a way I'd never heard/considered before, and it makes complete sense as to why those games are the way they are. They are licensed games at their core
Forces releasing in late 2017 did some severe damage. The gaming high everyone was on that year, followed by the meme culture of the times caused the community to essentially curb stomp a rather mid game.
Honestly in my opinion, Sonic taking itself seriously is no different than Ratchet & Clank, Rayman, etc taking themselves seriously. I love when Sonic is unapologetically Sonic.. so glad we're back to that again
Frontiers is a game I look back on and man. I still really like it. I didn't have sonic spouting shit like BALDY MC NOSE HAIR and I was interested in whatever the goofy ass story was. Then Super sonic shit is just PEAK to play. They aren't amazing but I'm watching the screen and losing it. The cyberspace levels are fun and running around as sonic is fun to do. I do thing some collecting stuff is a bit tedious and some placement of stuff feels randomly generated. But as a sonic fan, I REALLY REALLY hope the next game improves on the formula and doesn't just decide "alright new formula". It's just a fun game to play honestly. But it does have a lot of little nit picks that bring it down. Still I'd rather play it then forces or colors.
Sonic Generations was a major part of my childhood. It along with Sonic Unleashed were my first games I got with my Xbox 360. I’m super excited to pick up the remaster later this year and play the new Shadow campaign.
Sonic Frontiers was legitimately the most fun I had playing 3D Sonic since I was a kid, obsessing over Adventure 1 and 2. It's a great foundation to build upon for future games.
Love how you can so vividly tell Scott hasn't played Sonic Transformed for more than a few minutes. While not as polished as Mario Kart 8, it's a lot more skill based AND it had 200CC at launch.
Some people didn't like how difficult it was compared to the main game. But USUALLY, when people are sour on update 3, it's because of the Master Koco trial and figuring out the final boss. The trial is a boss rush, but they make the parry something you actually have to time and strictly at that. The problem is, the Titans weren't designed with that in mind, so their hit boxes don't always match their animations. For example, Giganto has an attack where he spins around multiple times. So you'd think you parry the first spin before it hits you... except the hit box isn't active until the second spin. As for the final boss, while it is my favourite boss, figuring out what you're supposed to do is a bit obtuse. It has this cord that heals him that you need to attack to break off the boss. The way you target it is by side stepping. Almost nothing in the game teaches you that. So you either do it by accident when you go to do a special move and mess up the input OR you figured out that you can side step Knight's shield to attack him and apply that logic to the final boss. Maybe some people thought about how some enemies guard and side stepping places you behind the enemy, but it's not exactly the same application. And they knew it was obtuse because if you 100% the final island in update 3, Master Koco gives you a hint on how to hit the cord. Personally, I loved update 3's final island/act and loved it more than the original.
@@AC_Dragneelthere was also the fact the new playable characters were kinda broken on release and not in the "good way", useless movement animations, some delayed attacks, disjointed homing attack bugs etc, they fixed pretty much all of those problems (plus making those characters busted when leveled up) in a future patch but most people didn't come back to try it out again
Kinda wild that the next good Sonic game, is a remaster of Sonic Generations with some good looking extra Shadow content that's basically its own small game.
@@Karianysu Except they were. Frontiers literally saved the franchise as confirmed by interviews w/ Sonic Team and it’s the reason why Shad Gens is as fantastic as it is. Everything else after Frontiers was great as well
Looking back at Sonic Frontiers, I'm shocked at how much the game's entire concept is just copying Breath of the Wild. Almost everything about it is ripping it off, the gameplay structure, the story, the atmosphere, the music outside of boss fights and cyberspace. It's really not much different from Lost World just trying to be Mario Galaxy.
Sonic franchise overall is a mixed bag! I love Generations, Frontier, and Mania, I also have a soft spot for Sonic 4 both episodes 1 and 2! Sonic 4 is basically good as downloadable mobile game, like a mobile Gamepass or Netflix original game, but they should’ve made episode 3, despite not selling as well, it was still good enough for mobile games on smartphones!
Sonic Lost World was such a strange game to me. On paper, it seemed like a smart next step. Boost was a guaranteed crowd pleaser, but it was insanely expensive and limiting, which is why they had to have all the 2D stuff or the werehog. Then Lost World comes along with a more versatile move-set and a more stylised art-style that could actually sustain a full game without padding it out with cheap 2D and weird gimmick levels…and then they doubled down on all the cheap 2D and weird gimmick levels, then ran back to safe reliable boost when the game bombed
I remember commenting that I was dissapointed with Team Sonic Racing being a Sonic solo game unlike the previous games, basically being like if Sakurai and the Smash Team made Mario Fighters instead of a new Smash game, and got Sonic fans angry at me and saying that they deserved a new solo Sonic Racing game and I wasn't thinking about them :/.
I think sonic superstars is an ok edition to classic sonic. It's a little overcharged but a nice edition. I honestly think the story was a highlight for me. I personally love trip the sungazer and hope she continues to be used as she is just a really cute character, and as a adamant fang the hunter fan I cherish any content of him I get
@@LoliconSamalikyeah that shit wasn’t fun, tbh I got like 75 percent through after gettjng tired and pissed off by the towers and pop in that I took a week long break and came back to finish it
I do hate the way Sonic controls in Lost World, but that's a game that had really neat DLC crossover stages for NiGHTS, Yoshi, and Zelda. And I kinda want an entire game that's just suff like that. Is that weird?
God, I'm glad things are getting better for sonic. The shadow animation that sega just released looked absolutely amazing. If sonic x shadow generations is any indication, we are heading into a new sonic renaissance!
I still don't trust the game itself. If Colors Ultimate goes by is that they show style with little substance and the game will play worst than the original one.
@@frickerrific2813 Fun Fact: In Lost World you can use the run button to make the spin dash last longer and you can jump while in spin dash mode. The downside is that you have less control in spin dash, so it requires alot of practice to master.
Yeah, it's kinda strange that he only had 1 line to say about it. Yeah Update 3 has issues but I don't think it was abysmal. The new boss theme is absolutely sick and the level design in the cyberspace was the most intricate and difficult in YEARS. He definitely didn't play it through.
1:03:51 "They look like something a fan would do on RU-vid" Ironic you say that, since a fan on RU-vid actually did a way better job of remastering the cutscenes! (See: Project Re-Rainbow)
I'm surprised by the lack of mention of the IDW Sonic comics! Unlike the previous run by Archie which were off doing their own thing, the IDW comics were hugely influential in bringing an emphasis on story / lore / seriousness back to the Sonic game universe, especially with comic writer Ian Flynn eventually being brought on to also write for the games, animations, et cetera.
Really a shame that the 2010s became such a bust for Sonic because it started with so much promise with Colors and especially Generations. I'm just hoping the 2020s doesn't share the same fate.
they've been starting every decade well and crashing towards the end since sonics inception e.g 90's Sonic 1-3 to chaotix to x-treme 2000's sonic adventure 1 and 2 to heroes to shadow to 06 to unleashed 2010's colors and generations to lost world to boom to forces this is the actual sonic cycle.
I am a lesser human (otherwise knows as a stupidly big Sonic fan) and God I am so glad we are out of the 2010s for sonic. Frontiers is flawed as hell, but God it feels fun to play, dlc 2 fixed my big momentum issues, and the music slaps so gd hard dude. For the first time, I am pretty uncomplicatedly excited for the next 3D Sonic game. If they really just take some time to iron out the technical stuff, either simplify or add some nuance to the combat, and let me go even faster, and for the love of God add a city for me to run around in, I'll be happy. Superstars is mid but I enjoyed it for the most part.
Sonic Dream Team is weirdly good. Like really, REALLY, weirdly good. It might genueinly be the best feeling 3D Sonic I've ever played. The level design is so polished and the physic are so smooth. I straight up do not understand how this game was made and then sent to the Apple Arcade dungeon where no one can play it because nobody has apple arcade. I could only play it through some weird plan my mom wasn't using. I hope it's a Shantae situation where Apple has a timed deal on it and it'll come to consoles soon, because it's just too good a game to stay trapped on a weird apple thing nobody has and can only be played on a phone or a mac.
Loves compliations, wishes they would stop releasing the same Genesis games over and over, angry that the game gear games were added to Origins as bonus content...
0:36 Agreed! The plot may be non-existent but the gameplay is really fun, I really enjoyed 100% the game cuz it felt fun the entire way through, can't wait for the new release in october.
to give Forces some undeserved credit, I think it's an interesting transitional piece for the series. They took a lot of bad cues from Generations, but they also had a story technically featuring more of the extended cast, a return of vocal themes, an.... attempt at a darker tone, a new character that felt more adventure-era-y... It definitely feels more Sonic in spirit than Lost World did and I feel like part of what made Frontiers work vibes-wise is that they decided to really earnestly COMMIT to all those things that had been getting kinda phased out since 06's huge flop.
