Why not roll the Starship like one of those 7-11 hotdogs cooking on those heating rollers. If you get the rate of rotation just right you can greatly reduce the overall heat on the Starship during reentry. When your speed is reduced enough you can stop the rotation and proceed with the landing. Thank you. Just give me a thumbs up.
Off the top of my head, keeping the tiles attached is a concern. If you are rolling, then the continual cycles of contracting and expanding of the stainless steel skin that the tiles are attached to would likely stress the tile attachment points, quite possibly to the point of failure. Secondly, I'm thinking roll instability would make me worry. Unless you started the roll off perfectly identically placed thrusters at the top and bottom of the starship (which I don't think it has in its current design), then I'm guessing inducing a wobble would likely result. Wobbles like that don't exactly correct themselves, they get worse. Even if you could start off a perfect rotation, the starship isn't a perfect cylinder, it has drag in its fins that I'm guessing would make a rotational wobble more likely as you entered the atmosphere. Maybe the flaps and thrusters could be redesigned to maintain a perfect roll during the entire reentry phase, but that is asking a lot of the design when so much heat is involved. There are other concerns but overall I don't think any of these concerns rules out a slow roll to keep reentry cooler. The question is, does the added complexity of the slow roll have enough benefits to try and make it worth incorporating into the design? For now they've had one successful reentry, and it was barely successful at that because of how much damage the starship suffered. I think the traditional stationary reentry has enough challenges on its own for now. Once they master that, I think it would be cool if they gave some thought to making a rolling reentry work.
@@MichaelSTaylor Starship Heat Shield. Use a modular heat shield that can be removed and replaced all at once: not one of those small single heat tiles one at a time. Perhaps two modular heat shield sections: one for the nose cone of the ship and one for the body of the ship. Currently, each single heat shield tile is attached to the Starship. Simplify most of this operation by attaching only two modular heat shield sections. There will probably still be some areas where heat tiles will need to be installed one at a time. But the vast majority of the tiles will be installed using this modular system. (I was pursuing another solution when I came up with this one.)
@@TonySousa-z7g I suppose anything's possible but if it's my money, I'm sure not spending it on a single heat shield that by design is as fragile as a dinner plate. If it cracks you've got to replace the entire thing? And how do you get it properly attached to the starship? Again anything's possible but if I'm an astronaut in starship I don't want all my eggs in one heat shield basket. EDIT: okay it appears you are suggesting at least two or more modular pieces, but still even allowing for individual tiles occasionally, that's still a pretty big design change. I'm not sure I'm seeing the advantage in larger more expensive pieces over smaller and cheaper to replace pieces. Elon has said multiple times you can adjust the gap tolerance between tiles to be very minute if you want to, that's actually what he just talked about this morning regarding how he will improve the flap design.
@@MichaelSTaylor Clarifying: even though the proposed heat shield is modular, it is only so as to facilitate quick installation and quick removal. It would still be built of individual heat shield tiles as currently done. But the advantage is being able to prebuild the heat shield sleeve modules, just like you prebuild Starships. The tiles would just be installed on "sleeves." Thinking about it, the nose cone sleeve and the body sleeve could be in two or more sections each. Sorry for leaving the possibility of "cracking" in the previous description. Rotating the Starship on reentry could be reconsidered. Just use this modular method to allow for rapid Starship turnaround. But will this be worth the trouble and expense. Replacing a few heat shield tiles is just as quick or quicker than replacing an entire modular heat shield section. Of course doing so would allow for inspection of the entire hull of the Starship. But is this necessary? If only a few heat shield tiles with the current system need replacing, the underlying area could also be inspected for any bigger problems. Well, apparently the issue boils down to the time and cost of rapid turn around of the Starship for its next flight. And finding the best solution. My latest suggestion may be worth considering until it is finally totally shot down. Thanks. Your feedback was helpful. Safety, cost, and time.
Starship Heat Shield. Use a modular heat shield that can be removed and replaced all at once: not one of those small single heat tiles one at a time. Perhaps two modular heat shield sections: one for the nose cone of the ship and one for the body of the ship. Currently, each single heat shield tile is attached to the Starship. Simplify most of this operation by attaching only two modular heat shield sections. There will probably still be some areas where heat tiles will need to be installed one at a time. But the vast majority of the tiles will be installed using this modular system. (I was pursuing another solution when I came up with this one.)
Would be interesting to know what coefficient of expansion for the ceramic tile material is, you might find that a large curved tile would crack because of uneven heating over a large unitary piece, and large forces… maybe that’s why many small tiles?… I wonder if some hybrid the tiles and that original idea they had of bleeding methane through the stainless skin might help with lost tiles and difficult zones like the flap?…
@@MrNoWool I may have not been clear. It is not one huge piece of heat shield. It is exactly the same as what they are using now except: imagine you took what you have now. cut it away from the Starship. Replace the missing stainless steel that you just removed. Now, slide what you just removed back onto the Starship. It is a large piece of stainless steel covered with each individual heat shield. Same thing except that it can be removed and replaced all at once. The trade off: quick turn around vs significant increase in weight.
40+ years after the space shuttle's first mission, a company has come out with better heat tiles. Shocking! Not even going to click the play button on this.
Ha, I was thinking the same thing. Now think about that in the opposite environment, at extreme depths in the oceans. What is happening to the air for a body re-entering the atmosphere, is the exact same thing happening to the air inside a sub during explosive implosion. The air is compressed so fast it hearts up. The sub thing is a fraction of a second, but same principle.
I like your content. However, can you stop with the clickbait titles? "NASA Shocked"!!! NASA Isn't shocked in the least, they're in panic mode if anything! They know they are in danger of being downsized due to political correctness and failure to produce. Their budget could, in the future, be slashed by 40% off the top, and many of their programs farmed out to companies with proven track records, meaning, they'll be nothing but a shell image of their former glory in the almanacs of history. I can't divulge my sources, but NASA knows exactly what is happening and knows it WILL be 10% of what they were in the past. Yes, NASA will continue to exist, much in the way the White house will always need a gardener! Crony Corporatism/Marxism is dying a painful death...
Well after all you have all the data from the space shuttle at hand and 40+ years of material sciences advances at your disposal. One would expect significant improvement from the shuttle's heat shield systems. What would be shocking is if there wasn't significant improvement.
Uh, the Space Shuttle was designed in the mid-1979s, first flew in 1981. That was over 40 years ago. You'd hope that we've advanced technical since then. Also, it isn't the friction that causes the heat, but the super compression of the air molecules.
Physics is a stubborn thing. The temperatures are way above the structural properties of all but a few types of material. Chemical bonds can only be so strong.
IIR, NASA is mandated to use a "man approved system" for the heat tiles. In this context, that means pretty much the materials and systems that became "man approved" back on the Mercury program in the '60's because it happened to work a few times in a row. In the intervening 50 years or so there have been a few advances in what materials and processes are available and I'm pretty sure that Musk took advantage of them. That said, Space-X may use exactly the same stuff that NASA uses; I don't really know. The point is that Musk was not constrained by a mandate from almost 60 years ago as he was developing his systems.
The obvious solution is to slow the fu@k down when re-entering the atmosphere. Instead of coming in at a blistering white hot 18,000 mph…slow down and ease their way back in. Now…I don’t have a clue about how to do that… but that is the answer.
Elevator far enough out to overcome gravity AND to be in a Geostationary position AND carry the weight of several cables 200 plus miles each. Math later.
2 questions ⁉️ One why not aldo have an easily mountable sacrificial disposable out layer. This could then burn off and be quickly replaced. Secondly what type of adhesive do they use to attach the heat tiles ?
SpaceX has compounded the problem… lots of KE and no control on a falling object. The thicker the tiles the heavier the structure thus more KE. As a result payload gets smaller. At least you can say NASA engineers were able to design a shuttle out of aluminum, reenter 133 times and we never saw the landing mechanism fail or a molten tire…. That’s the outcome of many smart design choices. That’s good engineering. SpaceX still has much to learn… and a long way to go. 😂😂😂
Spray on an ablative material over the entire vehicle. Then program the thrusters to systematically tumble the craft keeping the craft uniformly heated. Once the craft lands, just spray on another layer of ablative material.
Ablative heat shield is 3 inches thick. Once use, you have to remove it. Which is not easy as it is design to hold on tight and be ripped off by the plasma stream. If you are adding new ablative material, to old surface, it needs to bond well or it may just be ripped off like a zipper.
No, NASA isn't shocked; SpaceX is doing exactly what they anticipated. They would be shocked if SpaceX copied the Shuttle's slow turnaround barely reusable tiles. More than any agency, NASA expected SX to come up with a better design, that is quick turnaround fully reusable tiles. And they haven't done it yet, and may not ever do it within our lifetime. This tile situation is the Achilles heel of any rocket trying to be a quick turnaround reusable rocket. The heat is so high that it melts all metals, so some sort of ceramic material has to be used, and ceramics are brittle; they don't flex much like the a rocket does. It could turn out that they best they can do is have just a few tiles that fail, not enough to damage the rocket, and then quickly replace those for each flight. My suggestion is a new flat head screw to attach the tiles, a screw that has a ceramic top and metal bottom, probably glued together.
Starship Heat Shield final clarification: even though the proposed heat shield is modular, it is only so as to facilitate quick installation and quick removal. It would still be built of individual heat shield tiles as currently done. But the advantage is being able to prebuild the heat shield sleeve modules, just like you prebuild Starships. The tiles would just be installed on "sleeves." Thinking about it, the nose cone sleeve and the body sleeve could be in two or more sections each. Sorry for leaving the possibility of "cracking" in the previous description. Rotating the Starship on reentry could be reconsidered. Just use this modular method to allow for rapid Starship turnaround. But will this be worth the trouble and expense. Replacing a few heat shield tiles is just as quick or quicker than replacing an entire modular heat shield section. Of course doing so would allow for inspection of the entire hull of the Starship. But is this necessary? If only a few heat shield tiles with the current system need replacing, the underlying area could also be inspected for any bigger problems. Well, apparently the issue boils down to the time and cost of rapid turn around of the Starship for its next flight. And finding the best solution. My latest suggestion may be worth considering until it is finally totally shot down. Thanks. Your feedback was helpful. Safety, cost, and time.
Developed by Cavor, a reclusive physicist, it has the ability to negate the force of gravity, enabling him and a businessman named Bedford to travel to the Moon using a spherical spacecraft propelled by Cavorite blinds. [Anti gravity paint]
There are many things in a space program SpaceX clearly does not understand and keeps making mistakes and generating bigger problems… they did not recover the IFT4 because they are certain of one thing… it would capture all the wrong choices they already know. The good thing is IFT will be launched shortly even if we know already it will perform similar to ift4… fins are the same and it’s now heavier than ift4 which will add more KE to dissipate… take your seats the show will start shortly 🍿 😂😂😂
@@rwesenberg Not sure. I would go first with embarrassed, but then the shuttle is ancient. More like pleased - that someone takes the concept and makes it work with new materials. It is so easy to forget just how old the shuttle was.
There are people at NASA that are always looking at better ways, superior materials, and development. Large programs at NASA are politically driven and risk adverse. Politicians think the way to avoid risk is to change nothing. Midwittery at its finest. The engineers are not like that, but they don't make the decisions. The engineers were not shocked or embarrassed. In fact, SpaceX's work is probably based on work done by NASA.
Translation: The Enginerds and NASA retreads at SpaceX are going to be insistantly stubborn and Mulish. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results... A thought experiment... Lets say we built a feather out of stainless steel, that had the same surface area to volume and weight ratio as a natural feather. And also that interesting feather shape that that uses air resistance to turn innertia from gravity into air resistance and a spiralling downward glide flight profile. The reason we are using stainless, is because we wish to place it in LEO, and not have solar heat burn it up. Now if our fluffy metal feather model is allowed orbital decay, will it burn up during re entry? if it has the same characteristics as a natural feather? ie air resitance to weight, glide ratio, etc. You could also do the same experiment with say a feather made of Nomex fiber for the resistance to solar heat. I would suspect even with its much less resistance to heat damage than stainless, if the certain conditions of featherness were met, it wouldnt burn up doing a re entry either. synopsis: the problem is being approached from wrong end thinking. Hard thinking rather than soft thinking. Just as the hard launch mount and flame deflection system is only surviving marginally undamaged due to the soft thinking of the water spray system. Stuff like that... 🤭 What this means, is SpaceX is attempting to use more Brutish engineering than their fathers did did on the Space Shuttle. When they should be thinking of less brutish methods. They are getting closer to the required thinking, with extending the flight time and spreading the heat out over more surface area. But until they start dramatically extending high altitude glide ratio EXCEEDING that of the Space shuttle, their glorified toilet tiles arent going to save them or Elon from the embarassment of little progress. SpaceX has no Zengineers.... Still attacking the problems like Neanderthals with a club. Any bets on the next ship only being slightly less burnt up than the last unless the high altitude flight profile is extended beyond a ballistic parabola? Fricking silicate asteroids have burnt up doing entry since the dawn of time, as have nickle iron asteroids. Neither material is gonna do it without more finessé... Silicate tiles? nickle iron stainless? Not gonna fly Wilbur without more lift... Have done dozens of writs on this and various potential options... maybe it will take fear of bankruptcy again like when I proposed parts count and all the Yammerheads screamed all butthurt, that somebody not in their Social Clique might dare to suggest they were F'd in the head... You gonna pay the Physics ticket sooner or later.... I'll wait...
@@thomasmount3530 Oh? I have scored on SpaceX repeatedly, since the beginning with Starhopper and its wrinkly skin... Many concepts I planted ended up getting used. I have several thank you texts from Elon supposedly. If SpaceX hires the best and brightest on the planet, and Elon is a super genius, How come I can do that consistently? And where am I gonna find any "Peers"? Lemme guess? you have a wall hanger? and what has been your contribution besidesTrolling? Go back to your social club, or come up with better ideas. "Through the eyes of a child we will learn how to see." Thanks! would rather be childish and correct, than an adolt and wrong...
@@garylester3976 ok off the top of my head. Your feather. Please list the tests Spacex did before it ever went to space to find a good solution. You have assumed they were not cost effective, when in fact, they were. You completely miss the line of thought where some of the vortex behaviour around the control surfaces cannot be simulated and so knowledge of weaknesses can be found by re-entering with not enough heat protection. I'd happily debate you more, but only if your goal is to openmindedly progress science.
@@thomasmount3530 I'm here almost every day on Alpha Tech trying to present missed logic. Which is the same technique Elon uses. starting with fundamentals. I discovered it seperately, only learned he uses the same technique within the last week or two. and mentioned that here on Alpha Tech I think, though I occaisionally do writs on other channels. On the control surfaces, I predicted in writs here, that the problem would be concentrated heat in the arm pit area of the flappers... and suggested more of a blended wing effect and control surfaces aft on trailing edges... In fact, I have been critical of these same issues since the parts count fiasco era. The flappers, the tiles, the glide ratio and upper atmosphere profile, and the Grid fins... And have suggested multiple other options for each. And get consistently hearted and usually positive comments from the Alpha Tech admin guys. Also if you were to dig back thru my writs, you'd find stuff that ended up getting used pretty soon after. The new/next seperation structure was me first, The new steerable fairing concept for Falcon, and having it land like a hull down boat are in writs here on Alpha Tech weeks before it was the new genius idea. I'm just trying to help, and do occaisionally get to smile when I manage to get in a concept edge wise.. And did it on other channels, and often got banned for my audacity, until after the parts count thing.... Alpha Tech aint my first Rodeo trying to help Elon. Been banned on many space sites by the Gate Keepers in lab coats types. I dont stop. I'm somewhat like Elon. My main symptom is I have lacked a short term memory since birth. Its genetic, my Niece is similar, but I did get a gift, the ability to connect dots that others couldnt easily see how they connect. Also a class clown type, it helps, if you can get people alittle hot, they cant not think.... Ask your wife about that? if she making you mad gets you to think? 🤣 Its why I have fun with people's egos... it gets results... And I have used the same techniques for years planting stuff... Alot of online jokes have me as the point of origin. Many you have heard. Like Elon's joke about Jeff not being able to get it up before his first successful launch, I planted that joke a week or two earlier on a SpaceX related site hoping it would get to Elon. 🤣 I'm here to encourage progress by any means necessary.... 🤗 And I'd love to discuss anything with you that might help. And FYI SpaceX started cobbling up stuff with Hopper, there wasnt alot of previous lab work, and I was in comments herding things from the begining trying to get faster better developement. Elon often did adaptations of my terms... like I suggested "Enlightened Fabricators" and he morphed the term slightly for public consumption. that was when it was labnerds and water tank guys... Soon after he got a very professional fabrication contractor group on board. And things got better quickly. Basically I've had a hard life, and did alot of practical things, and have a learning addiction. And so a somewhat different not neurotypical animal. This morning I was realizing the similarity between the re entry problem and required shapes, and the Story about the Origin of the Viking long boat hull design. They still remember the guy's name, and the story goes he saw the wind take a leaf across the surface of a body of water, and realized the design for the boat hull. Best hull design ever to this day. When I first read that, my realization was he needed a leaf with wider aspect and turned down tips to create stability... And have done writs on that shape here on Alpha Tech for the eventual re entry design shape, the cupped wings to channel air and turned down tips to keep it linear. Watch a broad leaf with down pointy edge tips fall from a tree, thats how we need to design for reentry. Nature is very efficient at things... billions of years of experimentation. Ònly what works well survives.... Spacex is on a similar path..... And I'm a long range shooter hobbiest type. I know about flying bullets and their limits and nomenclature... What we have here is limiting ourselves by sectional density, and ballistic coefficient, and trying to slow the bullet down by key holing it. And not exceeding a ballistic parabola. We need to use more distance and less angle of attack, and spread the friction out over more time, in thinner air. Which is similar to putting wings on a glide bomb... its to do better than a ballistic parabola. And poor Starship's little stubby flappers ain't much... and over 45° hull angle means zero glide ratio..... its why the Space Shuttle was 40°.... I've suggested 5° to 15° to get maximum lift to velocity. Start at 5° increase angle as velocity slows. Maybe they can milk enough braking that way to begin to exceed a ballistic profile. Dont know about you, but if I'm in it, Would prefer the coolest re entry profile possible. And not end up a barbecue, if something goes wrong. And we have the motors now, can let go of the early limits era a bit on design with each new better more powerful and efficient engine. It doesnt need to be a pointy tube with minimalistic control surfaces. We can launch designs that fly back instead of fall back. And will need that returning from Moon and Mars.
Even though the Starship seems like a superior design, I'm still calm about its safety. The re-entry scene is a dangerous process and things can certainly go wrong. I hope SpaceX will prioritize safety during the development of Starship.
send your checks to Mother Nature and request a change in physics to accommodate bad engineering designs… so far response has been explosions or melted min reusable parts 😂😂😂
Never said that part of the reason starship falls at the speed of a bowling ball is its weight… stainless is the wrong material… but the way the landing gear under the shuttle always worked… that is real engineering 😂
NASA made the smart choice by engineering the shuttle. Elon expects physics to obey his laws because he can pay engineers and contractors to build stuff… if physics are not in line money does matter it will fail as we have seen repeatedly good luck with that 😂
