Dead God... - Phantom FG.1s were retired in 1978 from FAA service. - HMS Hermes lost her catapult and cables in the early 70's, it never operated Phantoms and couldn't. - HMS Hermes carrying 28 Phantoms ! She could barely carry 28 Sea Harriers, when operating as a classic carrier she had a full Fleet Air Defence squadron of 12 planes, a reduced Strike squadron of 7 planes, and a dozen helicopters and Gannet for EAW, COD, S&R and ASW. There's no way she could fit 28 Phantoms, at best half of that. - In 1980 HMS Hermes was starting her refit to operate Harriers. - In a 80's scenario, what you want is HMS Ark Royal, she was retired in 1979, scraped in 1980, she could barely avoid it in your scenario but she operated the last FAA Phantom squadron and did operate two full squadrons (Phantoms and similarly sized Buccaneers).
@@mrfrisky6501 Dude, half the fun of these things is the research and finding ways to make things fit or exploit the gaps in research, not to play make believe like a bloody 5-year-old.
My father served on board HMS Hermes (an Engineering Officer for radar and radio) in the late 60's when she operated Sea Vixens and Buccaneers etc. I remember him saying the only time he saw a Phantom land on Hermes was a touch and go. He said it was a bit of an event and he was on the island watching it happen. Apparently they all knew Hermes was too small to operate the Phantom at that time. Now, if the later refit from a 'Commando Carrier' had been with bigger cats and traps re-installed instead of the ramp?, who knows
I believe he is a real pilot (retired) If he is, it shows. He has that SA and 3rd eye that seems to see more than most. And I promise you he drinks tea, not coffee!
I believe the reason the RN lost the Phantoms was because defence cuts basically removed the carriers they could fly from. And the Harrier flew from smaller decked carriers with the ski ramp.
In 1966 the government defense review cancelled the planned replacements (CVA-01 class) for the Audacious-class fleet carriers Ark Royal & Eagle. And it was decided to phase out fixed wing naval aircraft all together. When Ark Royal left service in 1978 the Royal Navy no longer had any fixed wing aircraft at sea. The replacement Invincible class (officially 'through deck cruisers', not carriers) were intended (by the governnment) to be purely helicopter carriers for anti-submarine warfare (the Royal Navy's primary role in the Cold War). When work began on the Invincibles in the early-'70s the Harrier had already entered service as a close-support ground attack aircraft with the RAF and the Royal Navy quietly adjusted the Invincible's design just in case the in-development naval variant - the Sea Harrier - 'worked out'.
@@ibex485 yep like most MOD projects it was bodged together and later made to appear like it was a cohesive plan, similar to building a full size carrier but without catapults and then realising later it would have been a good idea (but too late because you've bought the aircraft...).
@@tomriley5790 When the politicians are that useless and obstructive, refusing to do anything the sensible way and following their own half-baked short-sighted fantasy ideology & self-interest... bodging is the only way. I guess the British are so good at bodging because they've had so much practice, thanks to so many hopeless governments.
I’m sure Gibraltar had some rapier batteries in place. Further there were at least two battalions of jocks there (my dad was one of them) so manpads were a thing as well. Plus at that time there would have been several RN Warships which would have had anti air capabilities. Also the Spanish had at least 1 AA missile battery in the mountains above Tarifa. RAF pilots told me they always got painted when they took off. Might add a little more spice if you choose to recreate this one.
HMS invincible was the first ship to go into service with type 1022L RADAR - she could have tracked and directed the entire air battle giving the British a decisive advantage. Depending on the month of 1980 HMS Exeter would have brought another 1022 to the fight too. But given the calm Spanish conditions the earlier batch one type 42s would have been very useful too if the Spanish aircraft strayed away from land.
12 rapiers were deployed to Gibraltar in the 80s after the US attacked Gadhafi. only 11 could be mounted on a suitable stable area. They were from 32bty 16 Regt RA.
So the truth to that one is. when the F!EE came out we had to re-bind all of the controls. I have them bound for the F1EE and it was during this video I discovered I had not rebound the CE controls because well I prefer to phatic hitting a tanker when I fly it so I just almost never fly the CE anymore. so that was just me flying trying to figure out what French to English words for bindings I needed lol. half way through the video I start getting some kills after get my life together hahaha. thanks for watching..
@@douglasarthur2673 If I don't know where I am going then the enemy doesn't know where im going and can't set a trap for me. lol cheers thanks for watching.
@@jacobtrapp3772 Matrix also does a lot of things behind the scenes for GR. He is and awesome individual to work with and we all enjoy when he's available for our shenanigans.
Hello. British phantoms used the spey engine and they were more powerful. However because of the expanded fuselage they had a slower top speed but a higher acceleration. This was probably because we have shorter runways in the uk. Plus it improved climb rate and low speed handling.
I was gonna say, FG1 did have PD as some people has said and cortana made the most logical point which you have to keep in mind, if they were going to war they would have gotten more gear before heading out like in the falklands. Probably would have gotten more aim9Ls and likewise more Skyflashes for the phantoms. Also, the british phantoms did have the rolls royce speys which have a bugger tonne more power but meant it couldn't turn for shit. All it was really good for was intercepting
For full realism HMS Hermes never carried F-4s, and the deck was too short, and the FAA Phantoms had all gone by 1978 anyway. This game really needs a Bucc, the you could have done a full HMS Ark Royal airwing.
Absolutely right it needs the Buccaneer! That plane did some very exciting stuff in service and war games with the RAF too. Accounts from pilots who took part in war games of how they managed to outfox the US and sneak in undetected to make their attacks. Video/wargame idea - Could Grim Reapers recreate the Bucc's original intended mission - attacking warships at sea (Sverdlov-class cruiser or similar) by approching at super low level and loft bombing with airburst nuclear bombs - using the assets already in DCS? It would be interesting to see which of the available aircraft is best suited to the role, and maybe a nice skill test.
Was the decision to omit the Spanish carrier and it's AV-8S Matadors intentional? While maybe not what you initially think of as a naval aviation powerhouse, Spain has actually operated at least one carrier since the 20s, I believe continuously. Would have been Dedalo in 1980. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_aircraft_carrier_D%C3%A9dalo
Rolls royce engines were larger and more powerful which required alteration to the fuselage and the nozzles beng pointed slightly downward which was quite distinct. Great video, keep up the great content!
Oh the remark about the F4 not having an pulse doppler radar, they most certainly did, the three modes on it,, you had pulse PD and mapping, I was an MCS techie at Raf Leuchars working on the F4k's ( fg1's) and the F4M ( FGR2) at RAF Wildenrath in Germany, both models also carried the SUU gun (20mm rotary cannon) on the centerline, The difference between the sparrow and flash mainly was the flash had better anti jam , plus could maneuver straight off the rails instead of flying straight for a few seconds
7:37 At the start of the Falklands Conflict, the RN had only 19 AIM-9L available to the task force about to sail south. Additional missiles were "acquired" from the NATO stores at RAF Leuchars, but the missile had never even been fitted or launched from a Sea Harrier. 100 missiles were flown to Ascension by the US, while a hastily arranged weapons testing firing and acceptance was conducted at RAF Valley, as it was assumed it would just be a formality given that the SHAR could use AIM-9G. During the loading of the missiles on to a SHAR it was found that the AIM-9L didn't fit on the rails under the wings, due to the larger canards. An enterprising CPO decided that he had to make them fit anyway, so he filed the canards down to make them fit onto the rails. Its reckoned to have been the cheapest weapons modification ever carried out!
@@grimreapers I'm ex- RN. You hear about these things when talking with oppos who were involved. There's other stories about how a 'clean' Harrier can climb to 30,000 ft quicker than a clean F-4, or how effective the Blue Vixen RADAR fitted to the SHAR was that it was able to detect contacts that the E-3 AWACS couldn't over Bosnia, or how RN Type 42s deployed for the 1st Gulf War were detecting F-117 stealth fighters on their 1022 RADAR :)
Hi Cap, this suggestion would be a pain to set up if you choose to do it but it's worth a shout as it would be a lot of fun to watch. I wonder if we could have an unrealistic scenario where Argentina invaded the Falkland Islands and destroyed the Sky Sabre site as well as the typhoons on station there. Awaiting an invasion of Gibraltar Spain send their carrier group down to try and take out several assets from the massive reinforcements of Britain's Carrier group. Argentina only have limited F16s left which can help the Spaniards with defending their Anti-Ship harriers. The goal of the Spanish is to use their future naval strike missiles to take out as many of the following British assets as possible: - 1 Queen Elizabeth Class Carrier - 4 Type 26 Frigates (With spear 5 asm) - 4 Type 45 Destroyers The Spaniards also have adapted a few of their Harriers to somehow launch their legacy harpoon missiles as part of their strike against the British. I would like to see how a futuristic British CSG could defend against a buffed Spanish and Argentinian attack off the coast of the falklands islands. This could be some massive simulation if done so I appreciate it's not a very viable suggestion. If someone had any predictions for down below I would love to hear.
Due the Spanish f18 are the ones with the antiship role that would be escorted by Typhoons. Also most of the spanish navy is in Rota, that is few kilometers far away from Gibraltar. And has apart from the Spanish carrier between 2-3 Aegis destroyers and i think all frigates are there. The rest of the destroyers are in the north and the submarines in Cartagena
In a way I prefer these Cold War scenarios to the ultra-modern ones, because there's no "Sit 100+ miles away and spam high accuracy missiles at targets". In these lower tech scenarios we get to see the skill of the human players a bit more.
Same here, with maternal side relatives from La Linea de la Concepción and Málaga and dad's side from Portsmouth (home of the RN) this video really feels "local" on both sides.
For a split second my eyes only went to Spain goes to war. With Europe in the state it’s in and all the wars we seem to want start or be involved in. It’s become all to easy jump to that. I enjoy the vids.
Can’t wait to see when we potentially have the new 6th gen fighters in this, like the tempest in all its British sexiness! I mean the rolls Royce engines, those wings and engine exhausts, god it’s enough to make a man cry
It's really hard inverting north and south, east and west, and imagining borders, all the meantime it literally says CHILE on the map... it's screwing with my brain. Any chance you could get more maps besides Syria, Cyprus, and Chile? I mean what kind of game is this, it only has 3 maps! Any chance we can contribute to map creation? Any way you can import your own non-game maps?
I’m a War Thunder player and the devs must model missiles wrong or something, as Radar missiles (particularly AIM-7 and likewise) are far superior to IR guided missiles such as AIM-9G/J/L,R-60 and likewise at killing aircraft. Maybe flares and chaff are modelled poorly or it’s Radars or just missile flare susceptibility? I really don’t know but what I do know is that the Harrier is a goddamn good looking plane
The Sea Harriers could only have 2 Sidewinders and would probably have fuel tanks, that's the loadouts they used in Falklands. (Later the Harrier could use 4 Sidewinders)
But then in this sim the RAF would annihilate the other half of the Spanish airforce from the North. Cold War RAF didn’t mess around, loads of fighters, loads of strike aircraft and strategic bombers. Not to mention the RAF could use its aircraft based in the U.K. and even the German based aircraft. And surely the RN would always conduct the air battle when possible within the AA air envelope of Type 42 destroyers.
Absolutely, but for the scope of these what if's the conflict has to be reduced to what is possible to create in a DCS mission. This is not about real what if scenarios, but about what DCS is capable of simulate.
Yes yes mate😂😂😂😂😂😂 The engagement would have ended in a draw rather than a victory. The RAF would have suffered a lot against the Spanish air defenses and air force. In any case there is no sense in the confrontation because Spain by that time already had one foot inside NATO
Rowland White’s book Harrier 809 talks about the procurement of the 9L and some sat comms equipment that went missing from Fort Bragg. Sufficed to say Reagan was publicly and privately neutral during the Falklands as he was getting pressure from Latin American groups. It was sympathetic US officers and a few US harrier exchange officers who were robbed of going to the war that tested their “neutrality”
Fun scenario, I would like to add if Spain attacked the UK then Portugal would be obliged by the Treaty of 1373 (yes, signed in the XIV century!) to defend its ally and attack Spain. The Portuguese AF got 44 A-7P Corsair II in 1981 so about 20 of them could attack Spanish AF bases and help the Brits to win yet another war against our common foe! :)
Regarding the lack of Phantoms in the Falklands - they didn't fit on the Hermes, they were too heavy and would only work on the older HMS Ark Royal which was decommissioned in 1979 and so not available for the Falklands (or for this scenario). I don't think HMS Invincible would have been available as it only commissioned in July 1980, with Illustrious and Ark coming much later.
Another one for a really fictional "What if": Can an Imperial Star Destroyer prevent the bombardment of Pearl Harbor, even if the GR help the Japanese (with 80's jets or 5GEN)?
FG1 phantoms where retired just as the skyflash was introduced in 1978 when the carrier was retired. Skyflash had a much better seeker than the UK sparrows
Fascinating scenario. Would Portugal, seeing as they're Britain's oldest ally offer their airspace and other resources for UK use? Bit like Chile in 82. Morocco's possible attitude makes perfect sense. An East to West attack would be possible from the Med? Not likely but possible? The French have form for supplying Britain's enemies with latest gen missiles. Love 80s stuff.
Getting yer refits of HMS Hermes mixed up, 80s Hermes was a Commando then an ASW carrier, 1973 her catapults and arresters were taken off. At the time of yer Op she was a helicopter only carrier. Refitted again in 1980 with a Harrier ramp. Didn’t have Phantoms after 1973. The Spey engines were bigger and thirstier, and needed to be more powerful because the Hermes catapults were so small 😂
All this due to it been a Liverpool / Spurs game no of this when Sheff Utd and Villa played the 1st game after lockdown when keeper was 2ft in the back of the net when Hawkeye and Var all misted it and Villa stayed up by 1 point could it have been that game that gave them the point and Var should be like Rugby and you can hear the ref and see it on the stadium screen 👍
8:20 Oversimplified covered that with one joky half sentence without explaining it in his Falkland war video. It's one of he many details he puts in you never realise mean anything more than a joke. But they do. So Matrix filled a little gap for me. Somethign like "Reagan said can you maybe stop this war from happening, Thatcher said "no" and Reagan answered with "ok do you need some weapons then"?
The tragedy of no Bucc! It would be interesting to see what "happened" on the other side of the country, with Vulcans, Canberras, Tornados, Jaguars staging out of the U.K. However, the fact the Buccaneer is missing is a travesty!
They actually did, sort of. During the Falklands war Spain started moving troops south in small numbers, in reaction to this 3 tribal class frigates were moved to active from reserve and a contingent of marines was readied for deployment. Gibraltar its self was reinforced, with 2 additional Jaguar aircraft.
What you are simulating is the retention of HMS Eagle which was in better shape than Ark Royal and could have lasted until 1980 operating Phantoms after a refit.
Just checked in 1980 only hermes and invinsible active (commissioned july 1980) . Illustrious not commissioned till 1982. So most likely UK would keep 1 Carrier NW of spain to protect any invasuion and 1 SW of Spain.
At one point the kill ratio was nearly 3:1 for the Brits, and there should have only been about 13 Spanish aircraft left. But by allowing unlimited human respawns, the Spanish still somehow had 30-ish planes dominating the airspace. There should have been no planes to re-spawn into, even with unlimited pilots. Run it without respawns and I bet the Brits win.
Just a note regarding the comment regarding the use of of the Phantom in the Falklands. I worked with a Royal Air Force rear seater who showed me an 8mm he shot while operating in the Falklands. I remember because he kept complaining about the poor condition of the cockpit canopy. Was this possibly post war?
Yes it was post war, we had both Phantoms and Harriers based down there until may 85 when the Harriers were returned home, when RAF Mount Pleasant opened
shoulda said 78 , hermies went in for refit in 79 where she got the ski ramp that lasted till 81 , i agree they shoulda kept the phantoms and hermies with catapults for another 4 years ,,,,, imagine phantoms in the fawlklands ( and buccaneers for that matter ) , i can see also why in the fawlklands the uk never asked the aussies to bring hmas melbourne since we had a copy of what the argies had ,,, it would have been confusing
Hermes did not carry Phantom’s only Ark Royal did. Illustrious was rushed into service in 1982 for the Falkland’s war was still being built in 1980. Hermes was being refitted in 1980 to get the ski jump I believe
Hi cap. If my memory dosent fail, the FG.1 used the RR Spey, because the give more acceleration, son they can take off ofthe HMS Ark royal. The withdraw of the R09 and her air group was due budget issues ( I think Polaris SSBN).
The reason was purely political after the hurt of cancelling TSR2. Spey was fitted just to have some British content in the F4 - no more no less. However low level acceleration was fantastic. Higher and faster the all-American F4 was king - the last of our F4s were American spec anyway.
The bombing of Port Stanley airport is the most costly and pointless series of bombing raids the British have ever undertaken! The RAF desperately trying to pretend they were relevant in this conflict - and then claiming victory afterwards! @@sbjchef
@@Ha-young_is_Just_Too_Fine The Vulcans had good RADAR jamming capabilities but didn't usually carry flares - they were vulnerable to IR missiles so if a Spanish plane could get within 5K of a Vulcan it was vulnerable.
British operation name "Operation Thunderegg" alternately "Operation Geode". US here, the Spey was better than the J79!!! One scenario that would be cool to see is an F-104 (low maneuverability, with a cannon) and an F-4 (kind of maneuverable, an no cannon).
I love these types of "What If" scenarios, please do more if it's not to much of a hassle. Maybe a version where the countries surrounding the panama canal shut it down, bringing USN into conflict against different countries in that region. If modern is too one sided play with era's ie Vietnam era USN vs these nations etc.
Raf did have spay engine in the f4, but they also did at one point brought a few second hand American planes and as they started differently, caused alot of problems of aquipment needed to start American jets lol.
If you're taking requests for fictitious scenarios, I'd like to see a US led effort with the UK and some Iranian loyalists supporting to reinstall the Shah of Iran immediately post Iranian Revolution circa 1979. Alternatively current year "War of the Hormuz Strait" between Saudi Arabia and Iran, if you want to had some of the other minor Gulf States into the mix as well feel free.
You have made the Brits more powerful than they were. Hermes didn't have F-4's and Illustrious wasn't ready until 1982. I'm afraid you need to do it again sir.
I think Spain bought F-5's but just a few years later than this. Edit: I think part of the the problem is strategic, the UK aircraft are basically arriving into the battle area piecemeal. This gives the Evil Spaniards the advantage of numbers, eventually at least. It would be interesting to see this one gamed some more. Speaking of which, surely some kind of early airfield strike would have happened before the Fighters went to the combat area?
The F-5A and Bs entered service in the spanish air force in 1970 so they were fully operative in 1980.. they were A, B and R models tought so no radar.. only sidewinders.. but still on level with the AV-8B.. there were 70 half B and the rest A and R models .. so i guess they could field arround 12-15 F-5s here (the problem being DCS E model has radar and better performance than the As had in the early 80s.. the Bs are still in service today with the big engines retrofitted but that upgrade was made in the late 90s)
@@sparrowlt Ooh, thanks for that. I had no idea. I did read a report on the state of their airpower in an aviation magazine back in the late 80's. Reckon I forgot most of it, but I did see F-5's.
Cap: "we would have won the Falklands without them" (the AIM-9Ls) Nonsense - the vast majority of Harrier kills were tail shots where AIM-9G would have been as deadly. There were some side aspect kills but they were the minority. We also had some Matta Magic R550s which we didn't take - but they are much quicker off the rail than Sidewinder and would have been useful for closing the gap quickly against faster enemy aircraft - so although in theory they are shorter range - in practice they may have been useful. The reality is the majority of enemy aircraft shot down were configured for ground attack and were defenceless.
Kortana is still around and she was in this video. I believe she had some real world work things going on that kept her from having the free time to join us for little bit. Kortana is always a welcomed and valuable member and we try to make time for her when she can show up for the fun.
@@dexlab7539 the has put videos out on her own channel for quite some time. but due to real life obligations she has never really been able to show up everyday. she's always been a welcomed member to our crew and making videos and she shows up when she real life and time permits. She's always. been awesome to work with.
This is quite a way off for a few reasons - not least there's no way 28 Phantoms were running from Hermes. However I also think there is a bit of a gap in tactics here. The British forces tend to be very tactically astute and simply throwing planes at an enemy like this wouldn't ever have happened. Its also highly unlikely they would only take that amount of force for such an operation too. That force may arrive first but it would act mostly in defence until a much larger force could arrive. On top of all that there were numerous countries who would almost certainly throw the British some help in that time too so chances are there would be a lot more systems going in and in a much more co-ordinated manner.
😂 Without the F-35B to retire the Harriers AV8 +, without the radar improvements for the Eurofighters in addition to + Meteor & Iris -T missiles and now I don't even want to talk about our Hornets... we brought them second-hand in 1984... (the aircraft based in Gando - Canary Islands - are to retire urgently😬) and without the Mirage III & F1 (retired from service) WE HAVE PRACTICALLY NOTHING TO DO!!
Spain has jumped in bed with Germany for the (compromise) CAPTOR-E AESA RADAR upgrade. Italy finally joined the British Typhoon ECRS Mk2 RADAR programme which will undoubtably be the better system. With Japan and Sweden coming on board too (Future Tempest, F-X and Gripen RADAR), the project looks to be secure.
It's nice to see a former British pilot putting his skills to the test with GR. What's Matrix think about the former RAF pilots training the Chinese air force on British / Western tactics, strategy and aircraft in exchange for big bucks?
@@grimreapers I suspected as much. I watch your videos on my TV (often with my brother). Thanks for pumping out so much content. GR is really quite novel and unique.
Always fun videos but to limited. I can imagine the Spanish airbases would have been softened up long before a naval task force was in range. With inflight refuelling Buccaners and / or Vulcans could of struck Spain from the UK mainland or Akrotiri and I suspect F4s would of flown CAP from Alratori as there would still have been Lightnings in service to cover UK air defence.
